083 - Electronic Attack

[@markbrown4442]

Great episode, Jello. Like the B52 episode, I really liked the more technical dimension by SMEs that broadens our understanding of the environment in which you fly and fight

[@matyas4878]

Awesome topic! The unseen element of war, I have always wondered about jamming and mutually denied degraded environment. Thank you for your show!

[@matyas4878]

Dave Unseen as in not in visual spectrum

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Very true, Matyas!

[@lawminx6213]

An interesting and complex topic explained with great enthusiasm by Captain Kurtz,who plainly enjoyed his time with both the prowler and the growler. Informative, and educational. Many thanks for providing this insight, Jello, and considerable kudos to Captain Kurtz.

[@superskullmaster]

Excited for this episode.

[@LRRPFco52]

Most people haven't heard the backstory about the F-117A shoot-down over the Balkans, but they had been using EA-6B EA/EP support on the nights prior. From what I've gathered, on the night of the shoot-down, EA-6Bs weren't available and visual spotters near Aviano recorded what types of aircraft launches, noting that there were no Prowlers taking off. This information was relayed to the Serbian SAM batteries, who then knew that they could search for longer periods of time without the same consequences of a HARM dropping down on them. An F-35 flight doesn't need this kind of support since they can cooperatively execute EA with very powerful AESAs, and do it as an interleaved flight with extremely high-rate MADL data link connectivity that is directional, not omni-directional. When I first started hearing pilot reports from how they were using the F-35s with strike packages, they said they "open the door" for strikers, then pivot to whatever target of opportunity mission set popped up inside the IADS net, whether it be SEAD/DEAD, DCA, OCA, AWAC, ISR, BDA, and then would open and close the door on the way out. As soon as I heard them mention "opening the door", the Sparkvark mission profile came to mind. That's something I never considered would be one of the capabilities of the JSF. Understanding how the order of battle went during ODS, it made me consider that the JSF would be filling that role of EA breaking through the perimeter defense radars to support the ingress of 4th Gen multirole packages like the F-15E especially, which can then go on to hit airfields, C4 nodes, etc. But yeah, I had the same question about why the USAF would just drop the EF-111A.

[@wgoulding]

The AF actually has a squad of growlers, plus some modified C-130's filled with jamming equipment. But yeah, the F-35's radar can act as a jammer and probably does a decent job of it. But I'd probably think that what they were talking about was the fact that it's really good at destroying enemy radars and SAM's.

[@LRRPFco52]

@@wgoulding JSF has stand-off jamming capability that is networked. As soon as USMC had enough F-35Bs, they retired their EA-6Bs. During Tailhook Symposiums, Prowler and Growler crews said they started getting brought into mission-planning from the start more as JSF entered the fleet. The pointy nose guys asked for their input a lot more once EA became part of their mission set with JSF.

[@Anderson_Hwang]

Great discussion! Since theres air-air, air-surface episodes and now EA, it would be great to discuss “Anti-ship missions” Naval aviation was about destroying enemy ships, it would be interesting to discuss and compare modern anti-ship tactics and equipments to WW2 ones Does it seem like a good idea?

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Anderson0708 definitely a good idea.

[@LRRPFco52]

In one of the Tailhook Symposiums a few years ago, the thing that stood out to me the most was how the EW community aircrew members said that they're used to being left out in the wind most of the time while all the conversations and planning focused on kinetic profiles. They said that now that the F-35C was coming online, they (Growlers) all-of-a-sudden became "cool" and more relevant to the fight as more pilots became invested in EW and saw its potential from within JSF cockpits. The cultural changes brought about by technology always interest me, since culture is driven by whatever landscape and energy currents are flowing around that space.

[@Ferpe2]

"Mini me" was awesome in explaining things in an easy to understand way at the same time as I, an Old Crow, found it entertaining and interesting.

[@petertimowreef9085]

Really glad you put these up on KZbin as well as podcast apps. I woudn't have found it otherwise and I am enjoying the content, thank you.

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Surely. 👍

[@petertimowreef9085]

@@FighterPilotPodcast Just listened to your episode on the B-1 bomber and really enjoyed it, made my ride from work a lot better. Again my thanks. One point of constructive criticism: you and your guests use a lot of abreviations that sometimes make me lose track because I don't know what they stand for. And I understand, you're talking with fellow military guys to whom these abreviations are as obvious and common as WTF, but I am just a humble waiter.

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

@@petertimowreef9085 I usually try to explain acronyms. Check out the glossary on our website for a complete list.

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

@@petertimowreef9085 I usually try to explain acronyms. Check out the glossary on our website for a complete list.

[@petertimowreef9085]

@@FighterPilotPodcast Maybe you don't have time for my personal ramblings but this is the internet and I am just gonna dump them here. I am Dutch and the Russian invasion into Ukraine has given me a new-found appreciation for the work you and the kind of people you interview do or did. We Europeans love to bitch about the USA, and with good reason a lot of the time. Without going into politics too much a lot of US citizens don't get what they deserve. But at the end of the day it's your 10, 15 maybe 20 years of technological advancement you geniuses have over Russia and China, backed up by fighting prowess proven in combat time after time, that keeps me safe at night.

[@philnovak6787]

Gerat episode! Thanks for getting my question answered! Appreciate it.

[@staurossc2010]

Got to do alot of special things being part of the EA-6B community. Forever grateful the the prowler and the capabilities of the jammer!

[@sedlo]

Magnum SA-6, bullseye 340 for 20!

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Except you wouldn't say "for" because it sounds like 4. 😎

[@sedlo]

The Fighter Pilot Podcast good catch!

[@dcsn1per]

LOL "The old rope-a-dope." The hero we deserve.

[@BinodPower-ix8bt]

A great podcast again sir. This really gave a good insight into the Electronic Warfare arena and its complexity and effectiveness in modern day combat. If I may ask, are you going to have a seperate Growler episode again, with hopefully "Mini Me"? He was a fantastic co-host as well. Thank you.

[@coleyoutubechannel]

Where is info on the thrustmaster giveaway?

[@flightsimstuff5417]

Great episode!

[@julietlima5564]

Another episode being hit out of the ballpark! Would love to have Cpt Kurtz come back and with a EF-111 guy. Fun thought. If he were Army he would be Col. Kurtz... Apocalypse Now baby!

[@timc7595]

Are you guys going to do an episode on the f-111?

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

If we can get the right guest, absolutely, Tim.

[@dustineverhart4028]

How do we enter for the Warthog Hotas?

[@elgato9534]

Great stuff! EW airdales save lives and increase mission effectiveness.

[@tommynikon2283]

EXCELLENT guest and content; civvies tend to NOT know much about the military except the "tips" of the spears. They forget what more than 95% does: SUPPORT the warrior element. EW is a VITAL component of the mission- and rarely discussed; this 'cast was very worthwhile. ps: great host that generates mutual respect/trust w/ the guest.

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Thanks for the favorable review, Tommy.

[@SimDeck]

Superb. A fascinating side to the subject. If I could ever have the chance to become a fighter pilot this is the subject I would have tried my hardest to get into. Brilliant stuff.

[@AerospaceGuy]

Fantastic topic!!!

[@JithinJose2]

Let me start DCS, this is a nice background talk

[@dustineverhart4028]

Doing the same thing. Wish they'd get the EF-111 and/or Prowlers and Growlers. Right now I literally put in FC3 aircraft with ECM set up with a radio item to turn it to always on or off ... Not very realistic but the best I can do with in game assets

[@schweizerluchs7146]

Yeah once the Typhoon is out DCS needs some more sophisticated ECM and ECCM stuff implemented!

[@calpal9983]

Interesting! Thanks!

[@fridge7515]

How about an EF-111A Raven episode??

[@TorToroPorco]

A fabulous episode, the Bob Marley We’re Jammin’ reference was hilarious. Despite the advent of stealth the use of EW as a force multiplier is still relevant as it can reduce the size of kill circles of SAM defences against LO aircraft and create gaps in air defences. Unfortunately the potential use of AESA radars on jets such as the F-35 for EW attack was not touched upon probably due to its classified nature. The Israelis supposedly have been able to hack and suppress Syrian air defence systems by transmitting signals through the Syrian radar antennas. An interesting follow up topic would to be interview pilots who've flown F-4 or F-16 Wild Weasels combat missions.

[@michaelmulligan0]

In Gulf War 1, special forces were sent in to cut the fibre optic cables which were part of Iraq’s IADS forcing them to resort to their microwave network. I think the reasoning being the microwave network was easier to disrupt

[@hiimbrady]

Nice

[@manuelgreil4306]

Great episode, Jello, and future Admiral Kurtz (not Colonel! ;) ) is a very likeable guest. My country's air force may very well be a future customer of the Growler.

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Excellent!

[@Motorman2112]

That's a great Mirage picture on the channel page, is it a hint at an upcoming episode?

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

...maybe... 😉

[@Bobcatflyfish]

Which mirage is it?

[@TLTeo]

@@Bobcatflyfish The one on Instagram was two Mirage 2000 D.

[@dutchbrotherfan1284]

Why does the EA-6b have a Faraday window tint. And the Growler does not?

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

If you typed this question while listening to the episode you should have waited a little longer...

[@Blitzwing5.0]

One J-16 driver disliked this episode

[@andrewchr]

I wish they could simulate some EW basic stuff for the DCS F/A-18C. Nothing top-secret. But at least to scratch the surface. It is at the end of its Early Access cycle and we still can't jam the enemy at all and have to rely only on chaff and flares.

[@showtime112]

That's right. Generally speaking, it might be cool to have a dedicated EW airplane in DCS. It wouldn't be the most popular thing but it might develop into an interesting niche for some guys.

[@nikovlogs9837]

@@showtime112 EA-18G would be cool. Prowler even cooler. Imagine 2-4 dudes all in multiplayer in the same plane? It'd be freaking awesome!

[@LRRPFco52]

A Desert Storm historical air campaign in a Sparkvark would reveal things we still don't talk about. Even stuff about 1960s-era A-12 & SR-71A ECM and ECCM is pretty tight-lipped. The Electronic Order of Battle reconnaissance prior to kicking off ODS was one of the biggest contributors of us dominating Iraq, and they had some the most heavily-defended perimeter defense and internal IADS nets, with SAM traps and fighter bases all over the place as well. We sniffed and DF'd so much of the Iraqi comms and RF sensors, then assigned layers of strike aircraft from all services (and UK partners) to hit those nodes hard on opening night and follow-on missions, basically blinding them as much as possible. What would be sick in DCS for educational purposes (I don't play it.) would be a campaign where you can cockpit-hop from one aircraft to another in a seamless continuum of how we applied violence cooperatively, highlighting how support aircraft open doors and hand off combat power capability to penetration/strike platforms in a story-like format.

[@stevelikesrhino]

Make their awacs start playing kick start my heart

[@upyr1]

My dad was an EWO in the 1960s, according to him the guys he trained against were more skilled than the NVA AD

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

That’s the rumor we’ve been hearing as well, Sean...tough know it’s true until actual combat though!

[@falconeaterf15]

Sean patrick Maiorca I think it was in a book called Wild Weasel, written by a Weasel F16 pilot who did some pretty incredible SAD work in Iraq, that had some detail on NVA AD. Russian equipment was provided, along with training, but the training varied greatly, and thus so did crew performance. A good read if your interested in the Vietnam War Wild Weasel story.

[@lmj06]

Was mini me an ewo

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

yes

[@223frankthetank]

EW!! yess

[@HarryVoyager]

Side note on the radiation, as long as the frequency is not high enough to knock electrons off (I.e. Ultraviolet and shorter) there isn't a cancer risk. The main personnel concern with high energy RF is burns. You'd basically an in-side out microwave oven at the rated wattage of the transmitter. Now power drops off at at least the square of distance, but some of the old Soviet super high power early warning radars could flash cook a rabbit that got into one of its beam lobe. Knowing how the US handles safety, I'd expect there are a lot of interconnects in the system to make sure you can't turn on all the watts on the ground with weight on wheels.

[@wgoulding]

Actually, I'm not sure if there's any safety interconnect on that kind of a level, certainly there's switches that keep it turned off, but the best safety that you could ever want for the Growler / Prowler's AN/ALQ-99 is that they use a RAT (Ram Air Turbine), basically a mini windmill, to generate power. On a carrier deck or on the ground, the aircraft is not moving or moving very slowly, so there's no power. Can't definitely say so, was only a mechanical engineer on Northrop Grumman's NGJ-LB bid.

[@AviationPlus]

Singer 17...HELP!!!

[@mindsway7036]

Can you do like a webcam podcast just saying

[@JBreezzBeatz]

this needs the most likes!

[@HabitualButtonPusher]

They do sometimes for Patreon supporters

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

MIND SWAY we’re looking at some options for expanding content.

[@DNModels]

Dear Vincent, please stop making sounds while people talk. I think many would appreciate that gesture on your behalf.

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

"Sounds" like, what rustling papers? Grunting approval? I'm not aware of what I'm doing, Mitko, apart from trying to hold a normal conversation. But happy to improve if it's a problem.

[@robtrindade9087]

Very bad advice. You're a great host Jello! It matters to show you're listening and engaged, and if the conversation doesn't happen to require a great deal of focus to comprehend when listening, and especially if it's more of a conversational circumstance rather than an informative teaching and explanation, definitely it's good manners and just friendly to be affirming (like mhm etc).

[@suckmysprocket6515]

I think Mitko is referring to your verbal nods. Its helpful in conversation one on one, especially without visual body language conversations (telephone) but I kinda get where he's coming from as it's not necessary in an interviewing scenario. It's habitual so would be bit tricky to catch it! Not a big deal, but for professionalism's sake, won't hurt to try to resist the urge in doing it!

[@robtrindade9087]

I'm fairly certain Jello knows the difference between a conversation among fellow military buds and a more formal, public interview where it would be more appropriate or professional to wait in silence when the person being interviewed is speaking (like for a very high ranking officer or public official) The current format of the show doesn't warrant that kind of up-tightness and frankly that's why many fans of the show like me are here.

[@_Majik]

@@robtrindade9087 I have to agree. I listen to so many podcasts where it seems as though the host doesn't even acknowledge or react to what their guest is saying, and it comes across as too clinical and like a questionaire. As someone who teaches social interaction, that gets on my nerves. A conversational style, like Jello has, is definitely more natural when interviewing friends and collegues. The best interviewers are those who make it flow like a conversation, with a back and forth, even with those they just met.