094 - Surface-to-Air Threats: AAA

[@patrickchase5614]

One last comment about (lack of) advancements as discussed at 55:10, there is a lot of current work on guided projectiles for AAA systems as small as 57 mm. A simple mental model would be to think of them as a salvo of cheap missiles that get shot out of a gun barrel at mach 3+ (~1000 m/sec muzzle velocity) and 200 rounds/min instead of being accelerated to similar speeds by rockets. Though there hasn't been much said about their guidance mechanisms, I suspect that many of them are "laser grid-riders" along the lines of the Starstreak missile's triple kinetic impactors. That guidance scheme is cheap to implement in the round (most of the complexity is in the illuminator that scans to create the coded laser "grid" around the line to the target), difficult to jam, and allows multiple rounds to be programmed to ride at different offsets from the center of the guidance beam and thereby form a "guided cloud" of rounds. I suspect that these sorts of microelectronics may resuscitate the field of large-caliber AAA (57 mm seems to be the practical minimum for guided rounds, at least for now). I think it's also why we're seeing a lot of 57 mm guns on recent USN surface combatants, as that's the fastest-firing weapon that can/will shoot these sorts of "magic bullets".

[@schwappingmags1008]

Crunch has great energy, he will be a phenomenal co-host! Looking forward to hearing him more!

[@larryhenson3990]

I work for lockheed Martin in Meridian MS, so hearing you guys talk about the lasers as offensive, lockheed is using them as a defensive measure currently, one of the sub components we build here is the liricom (Lir-e-come) box and its a defensive laser that dummies the incoming IR missiles on C-130s. They are now working on putting them on escorting aircraft to protect larger tankers and awacs from SAMs and AI threats.

[@larryhenson3990]

@TC 11 its public knowledge

[@andrewhazlett5418]

Barraged fire: single or multiple systems firing in multiple fixed points. It’s an intentional dispersion of rounds to create a beating pattern which is attempting to neutralize the effect of aircraft maneuver while the rounds are in flight. Can be as simple as an AD commander simply telling his gunners where to aim at the target (Gun- 1 High & Forward, 2- Low & Center, etc), or in the case of some modern weapon systems it’s an actual computer controlled pattern. Modern AHEAD rounds (Skyguard) make this even more effective because even a single engaging weapon system is capable of filling a very large 3D piece of space with a dense enough pattern of aircraft killing metal.

[@apparition13]

Oto Melara's 76mm super rapide now has guided projectiles (DART); the Italians use them for CIWS instead of things like Phalanx. MAD-FIRES is a 57mm system being developed, this time for the USN, that also fires guided projectiles. Both are naval systems, but there's no reason they can't be adapted for land use.

[@davidllewellyn5236]

Soviets always an extensive array of ADA weapons as NATO / US airpower was such a threat. As I understand its not just about hitting aircraft but district the pilot with all the tracer etc. and weapons miss so you've had the desired effect and protected the target or degraded the effect of the attack. In WW2 the most heavily defended areas (like Berlin) always had the highest return to base of Allied aircraft with tech issues as well before reaching the target. Deterrent effect. Soviet guns went from 12.7 (so 50 cal DSHK), 14.5 ZPU 1 and 4 - single and quad mount which were basically anti tank (anti material rifles) configured to fire fully automatic (!), 23mm high rate of fire aircraft cannon configured for ground mounts either twin towed or quad in ZSU/23/4, 37mm 57mm auto / semi auto and 85mm, 100mm and 130mm (!) towed or static ADA. 57mm could be SP as well. Lots of height bands covered. Issue with fast jets is that you need the guns plugged into a radar direction system to provide effective tracking. That's why ZSU23/4 with 4 x 23mm and radar is far more effective than ZSU/57/2 with 2 57mm semi auto but no radar. At 4000 rounds of 23mm a minute ZSU/23/4 had it's own cooling system to spray water over the barrels as the rate of fire was so high. Back in the day driving aircraft higher with ADA also reduced accuracy so it's not just all about shooting down aircraft but neutralising or degrading the threat. Another great episode as ever!

[@patrickchase5614]

Did I hear Crunch describe a coasting missile that exhausts its kinetic energy as "run[ning] out of Schlitz"...? Classic.

[@toprob20]

In the navy they also use the 76mm and 127mm for air defense. I believe they mostly use programmed air-burst shells. The Italians use 76mm super rapid guns in stead of 20 or 30mm for close in defense. As for land based blue AAA, there are SPAAG's like the German Gepard and British Marksman. The US doesn't really use guns for land based SHORAD, in stead they favor Stinger based platforms. Other than that there are some towed oerlikons and stuff, but nothing that impressive. The US did use to have the VADS 20mm system like the Korean one in the video's background. Unlike the Russians the West doesn't do a lot with gun based AAA. I get that missiles work well at short range... but you can't aim them to the ground like you can with a Shilka!

[@johnb7490]

Great topic . Having worked on the F14, they were rugged As always Serria Hotel.

[@jettsetter7]

AAA killed my grandfather in Laos! 23mm Golden BB to the canopy coming off the perch during a dive bomb. suu23 probably locked onto them before they even rolled in. They were holding high at 13,000ft as lead made the first two passes. They saw where the guns were coming from and the FAC cleared them hot. Last words were, “4’s in.” RIP Gunfighter 4!

[@robertdownie6574]

Hiya Jell-O. A show about the Avro Vulcan is a fantastic idea. It's as iconic to us Brits as the B52 is to our American cousins.

[@ThePlebicide]

Just as a point, Ack-Ack is a primarily British term from WW2, and is interchangable with Flak. Flak comes from the German Flieger Abwher Kanone, meaning Anti Aircraft Gun (Literally Anti Flyer Cannon)

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Good to know!

[@spiller212]

"Ack-Ack" most definitely comes from the infamous German 8.8cm Flak from WW2 as "eight" means "acht" and the 8.8cm was just called the "Acht-Acht" in the German military. As English speakers mostly can't pronounce the "Acht" correctly, they call it "ackt" - making "Ack-Ack" out of "Acht-Acht". You're right, but you misspelled it: it means Fliegerabwehrkanone, whereas "Flieger" means "airplane", "Abwehr" literally means "defense" and "Kanone" stands for cannon. Just a slight correction ;) Btw: Fliegerabwehr is a term still used today. The abbreviation (at least in the Austrian army, where I served) is "Fla" and it basically stands for "air defense". "FlaRak" in German stands for "Flugabwehrrakete" (SAM), whereas "FlaK" stands for said AAA.

[@spencerstevens2175]

Lol Germans and their matter of factness

[@vishalyadav3816]

Can you do a podcast with Indian pilots sharing their experience against F15s, f22 in Red flag with their Su30 mki

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

We definitely want to cover the Flankers, just have to find the right guests.

[@ji3194]

Also, Air defense artillery is a Separate branch within the US Army just like Aviation, Armor ETC. The US currently doesn't have any gun based AAA system with the failure of the M247 program in the 80s.

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Is that still the case? The little research I did suggested that branch of the Army was dissolved.

[@patrickchase5614]

A clarification at 35:15 - Back in the days before proximity fuses, fuses that were intended to kill things detonated after a certain flight time. That's why one of the WW2-era British AA fire control systems was called the "Fuze Keeping Clock". My understanding is that flight time was more consistent as it didn't vary as much with the density profile of the atmosphere (density variations impact drag and therefore shell velocity, so a time-based fuze isn't totally independent of density, but it's more predictable than barometry). Any large-caliber (76 mm and above) AA gun system since late WW2 uses radar proximity fuse, similar to the ones in modern AAMs. The improvement in hit rate was dramatic, as the fire-control system no longer had to accurately predict the range and flight time to ensure a hit. All it had to do was get the shell to pass near the target. The Soviets and Chinese made radar proximity fuses for the 57 mm ammunition used in the S-60 (mentioned around 41:15), and there has been recent work in the US on radar proximity fuses for shells down to 30 mm to improve anti-drone effectiveness. Basically when the target is as small as a drone, you can significantly improve kill-rate by proximity fusing within even the miniscule lethal radius of a 30 mm shell. For larger targets the gain over pure impact fusing just isn't worth it which is why it hadn't been done before now. IIRC some smaller (40 mm and such) impact-fuzed shells of that era did have secondary barometric fuses as a safety measure, i.e. to ensure that the shell would explode before it fell back to Earth in the event that it missed. Early proximity fuses (also called "VT" for "variable time") had a similar self-destruct mechanism to ensure that they wouldn't fall into enemy hands. They were also restricted to targets over water, for the same reason.

[@PatsFanGermany]

Funny that you guys are distinguishing between AAA and Flak, because Flak is literally the German abbreviation for AAA. Flak stands for Flugabwehrkanone = German for Anti Aircraft Artillery.

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

We cover that in the next episode.

[@مراد-ش8ط]

Epic can't wait for next one, keep it up guys.

[@dragonstormdipro1013]

I personally know an Indian Mi-24/Mi-8 pilot who served in Kargil, and Sierra Leone. If you want, I can help you get in contact with him. How to contact you?

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Thanks. Via our website: fighterpilotpodcast.com

[@christianarboleda7872]

Man one thing I would be worried about are those surface to air threats. Scary stuff

[@DJones476]

Hey, Jell-o, I noticed you dudes were talking about the ZSU-23-4. It was code-named the 'Shilka' and some fighter pilots called it 'the Four Fingers of Death'. As I recall, the Shilka could hit a fighter that was 14+ angels high!

[@flightsimstuff5417]

Love your stuff Jello. Have you had an episode on the E2/3? (AWACS) stuff? Seen them all but don't recall. A zillion years ago we had some E3 guys come up with the idea to use our facilities (ATC RADAR control room) for a test; story was they wanted to practice adapting to alternate facilities/equipment. Just in case? My biggest recollection was how, well, 'exciting' the commotion from their side of the room vs ours while doing their 'thing'. Note they wouldn't let US check out their stuff :( - too secret I guess. Take care.

[@stephenfowler4115]

Most early explosive shells used burning fuses. I'm not aware of any pressure activated models. Electronic timers have been used. Larger shells have small radar systems that detonate when they are close to an aircraft that are called proximity fuses. The 88mm used by Germany in WW2 was capable of 30,000 feet plus. Gravity being what it is initial velocity determines the altitude that can be reached.

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

All good stuff, Stephen, thank you.

[@am17frans]

The burning fuzes stoped being used in ww1, and one went to mechanical time fuzes (basically clockwork). With the exeption of the germans who already had mechanical fuzes at the start of the war. In all cases it was for use in field artillery shrapnel shells, rather then AAA. The burning fuzes was affected by air pressure, so was much less realible when fired more or less straight up; in field artillery use this was not an issue as the trajectories were quite flat. Pretty much all AA shells got some form of self-destruct timer to avoid them laying waste to the surrounding area.

[@Fast85FoxGT]

Early morning episode oh man... Way cool Hold up B25 and B29 coming up??? Oh you guys are spoiling us.

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

😉

[@am17frans]

OOh, been asking for this. Looking forward to a good listen as I walk home from work in a few hours. It take about 2h as it is 11km, so making the podcast a bit longer would be perfect! :)

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

They've been creeping longer--just wait until Bomber Month in November!

[@JustAnumbr]

Found the call sign story. Thanks 🙏 Jello

[@jettsetter7]

“56 in a 55.” In Texas we go 80 plus lol. Speed limit is 75

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Everything's bigger in Texas, or so I've heard.

[@macedk]

jusr wanna hear about the topic ? 24:00

[@Rokaize]

More like 27:00

[@mobiuszero1018]

Are you going to do An ep on the USAF weapons school anytime soon? And for that matter,maybe even a segment on Red Flag?

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Not before next March--we have our content planned until then. And as always: we'd have to find the right guest.

[@michaelmulligan0]

Permanently blinding lasers are prohibited under Geneva Convention…. But not dazzling

[@nickritacco3032]

Jell-O, another great episode!

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Thanks, Nick! 😎

[@CAPEjkg]

The "Golden BB"!

[@figmo4227]

I written articles on surface to air weapons. They're pretty scary.

[@TorToroPorco]

Can you provide any links to the articles? Thanks.

[@figmo4227]

@@TorToroPorco here you go - the context is for a flight sim but the information is kosher (nothing goes into OPSEC territory) www.falcon-lounge.com/falcon-bms-essentials/threats-guide/

[@stephenfowler4115]

Lol 10 hours a day flying time is awesome 👍

[@tzebra]

While I enjoy the podcast, the saying holds true that 'you can't win them all'...this was one. A better prepared interviewee, with perhaps experience on Spaag and/or similar systems. The A10, AH-1/64, UH, C-130/17 personnel would be more up-to-date, from an airborne point-of-view, as those system are in forethought.

[@maddthomas]

I like your podcast but if I could give you a little criticism, your not giving enough detail or you are spending too much time explaining for people who do not know anything about military aviation. You guys are doing great work, I could not do what you guys do, this is just my opinion that your audience doesn't need AAA anti aircraft artillery explained or could figure it out by context, but keep up the good work, thanks.

[@tabascoindy5005]

Jane Fonda's dream almost came true when she sits in soviet AAA and almost shot down U.S war plane in N. Vietnam july 1972. She is not a fan of U.S military.

[@bensmith5413]

Kinda disappointed with this one. I think i could have talked more knowledgably for 2 hours on this topic. And i was navy warfare. You didnt cover the evolution of fire control or enemy tactics from history. You missed current trends re syria and ahead ammuntion. Current threats you barely touched on, re drones and the now renewed push for shorad. Would happily fill in these blanks for anyone.