095 - Surface-to-Air-Threats: SAMs

[@patrickchase5614]

The more common term for what Jethro described as "seeker-aided ground guidance" is Track Via Missile (TVM). IMO that's one of the most interesting and powerful modes of all. TVM was the major technological advance that enabled the Patriot, and was subsequently used in later S-300 variants (the ones designated SA-20), S-400, and more recently in other long-range designs. In addition to allowing more efficient profiles as Jethro said, TVM has a couple additional benefits that you probably couldn't go into but that I can based on what I know from open sources: 1. Anti-stealth capability. The ground controller can "jog" the missile such that it's looking at the target from an angle instead of directly along the transmitter's boresight (i.e. the ground transmitted and missile receiver form a bistatic radar). Shape-based stealth works against conventional monostatic radar by directing the reflected energy away from the transmitter, but if a TVM missile can be maneuvered into the resulting lobe of off-axis energy then the stealth aircraft has a Big Problem (tm). 2. ECCM. Jammers often work by sending energy back towards the radar that is illuminating them. If a TVM missile is looking at the reflection from off of the radar's boresight then an overly directional jammer will be ineffective (and the ground station will be able to continue to track the target via the missile's return). Conversely, if the adversary manages to jam the missile's receiver the ground can still command the missile based on its own radar picture. At the very least this forces the target to send energy across a broader range of directions, degrading its strength in any of them. IMO it's also worth noting that modern radars use monopulse processing to achieve azimuth resolution >10x better than the beamwidth would suggest, and pulse-compression to achieve range resolution ~100x better than the pulsewidth would suggest. The net impact of both is that modern ground radars can achieve much more precise tracking than in the SA-2 Guideline's day, and as a result we're seeing a lot of short/mid-range command guided missiles again, like the SA-15 and SA-22. The fact that the missile doesn't need to carry a seeker makes it lighter and cheaper. It appears that the recent rash of guided 57 mm shells also operate along similar principles.

[@Dan-qp1el]

I really enjoy your down-to-earth approach to interviewing.

[@stevenlarratt3638]

Cancel appointments, clear my schedule sit back chill out and relax and tune in...

[@brunoroomops]

I am on parental leave, kind will do the same here

[@jameshewitt8828]

And open a cold beer

[@jettsetter7]

“AAA takes out so much with so little.” Absolutely.

[@fpsserbia6570]

yea for sure but, cruise and ballistic missile are much more effective, because you want to win a war not fight a war.

[@jettsetter7]

@@fpsserbia6570 in 2020 I’m sure that’s the case. But that hasn’t always been. AAA has taken out more aircraft than any missiles have.

[@tealc6218]

Yeah the membership fees are low and the benefits are great...they'll give you a tow, unlock your car or jump your battery. Yeah AAA is great deal.

[@jettsetter7]

@@tealc6218 that joke sucked so bad it gave AIDS after reading it

[@K_Kara]

Just catching up on old episodes and wow this one was a blast. Incredible story over Baghdad, Jethro was loads of fun to listen to.

[@trojanalum2622]

Thanks so much for this. I've done some work on the other side of the subject and good to hear Jethro's perspective and corporate knowledge. Fight On!

[@michaelmulligan0]

That would be an interesting perspective

[@PatsFanGermany]

"The 88“ or 8 8 was a famous German gun in WWII which originally was an AAA gun, but could be depressed far enough to be used effectively against tanks and even in a regular artillery role. The name refers to the caliber of 88 mm. If you read the Book (or watched the HBO Series) "Band of Brothers", Lt. Dick Waters and his soldiers of the 101st Airborne Division disabled a couple of 88s which threatened the allied landing on D-Day. A version of the gun was even used in the legendary Tiger tank.

[@MrJRizzles]

Brécourt Manor was a battery of four 105mm howitzers.

[@finixhawkeye3213]

Hey Jell-O, you mentioned Sun Tzu at 43:52. His book "Art of War" is one of the books all you guys seem to refer. Why don't you do a series on this matter. How a book that was written on warfare using Swords, Shields, Bows & Arrows is still relevant today. As well as relevant in the battlefield and life in general. Salute to you and all the great people you bring to this podcast. I am a big fan.

[@tomaszwota1465]

"How a book that was written on warfare using Swords, Shields, Bows & Arrows" - well, there's your answer. The book is often a bit more abstract than that.

[@مراد-ش8ط]

I'm still so excited and waiting on the J-CATCH 1978/79 hopefully it's declassified nowadays and that we can learn about it in depth.

[@michaelmulligan0]

Ref “Behind Enemy Lines” look up the Starstreak SAM Fires 3 manoeuvring kinetic darts at the target

[@bret9741]

I enjoyed the discussion of low level flying. There really isn’t much low level flying at the airlines, just take off and landings. Occasionally in places like NY LaGuardia coming up from L the south you’ll have to step down to be below Kennedy and Newark departure traffic. But in general there is little low altitude flying. In 2002, I flew out of Cincinnati in CL-65’s. The particular flight I have in mind, we were flying to Newburgh New York. As we left Cinci, we climbed up to the mid 20,000 range on our way up to the mid 30’s when ATC asked us if we could accommodate a request from the Air National Guard. They asked if we could start a descent to 10,000 ft at about 1500 ft per min then maintain 10,000 ft all the way to Newburgh while being used as intercept practice. I had tanked fuel and OPS had told us that some flights would be asked to be used for intercept practice. I said yep we can accommodate then let the passengers know that we would start a descent to 10,000 msl and be intercepted by F-16’s occasionally they might see a fighter just off to one side. We initially started the descent at 320 IAS and held that until level off when they asked if we could slow to 200 IAS. I don’t know how many intercepts were made. Maybe 15-20. And it was cool to have F-16’s flying off the left side and it appears a second would be off our right side back a couple hundred yards. The point of the story isn’t the intercepts. It’s the 10,000 MSL altitude at 200 kts (nearly silent in the cabin) flying passengers through the hill and mountains of Pensilvania, Maryland and NY, at times only about 5000 ft above the ground. It was a sunshiny clear Sunday morning. The passengers absolutely loved the ride. I think every single passenger said “that was amazing… I could see homes and cars and … and the F-16’s were so cool”. Well this all had to do with the tragic September 11 attacks. For a while we were routinely intercept by units out of Fort Wayne and Canton / Akron. The only initial oddity was not responding to TCAS which always seemed like I was breaking a commandment.

[@mandonutcase]

Active duty Coasty FM/ aviation enthusiast here, i just recently discovered your podcast and really been enjoying them as I build models on my off time! Really cool you guys discussed the dry suits i never new fighter pilots used them! They are bulky and uncomfortable and do hinder dexterity. Do you train for ditching scenarios much? Such as the Dunker etc... Down south in the winter months we wear them when the water Temps are low as duty sar crews. Doesn't matter how hot the air temp is! Dress for the crash! Right? Keep up the good work!

[@zeitgeistx5239]

Surprised you guys mentioned frankenstein SAMs, like the Houthi's using an IR missile from the ground and downing a Saudi aircraft with it. I think Behind Enemy Lines was taking artistic license from the British Starstreak missile that had 3 penetrator warheads.

[@lordtemplar9274]

Excellent episode! Great stories to bring it to life for us. Thx a lot.

[@tabascoindy5005]

This episode pairs best with Norm's Raggedy A$$ IPA. Great stories guys. Thx

[@robtrindade9087]

I think Crunch is a little crazy. lol. I like him!

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

A "little"?! 🤪

[@michaelmulligan0]

Excellent as ever Also interesting about UPS

[@mikespike3962]

GREAT episode. One of my favorites of the show.

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Thanks. 👍

[@johnb7490]

Great job as and topic. He was a fun listen

[@michaelmulligan0]

The RBS70 is laser guided. It can use a radar to give the firer altitude and direction but is completely independent of that radar. Unless an aircraft has the laser warning receivers or CCTV type system will it be able to detect the fact it has been launched (apart from visually)?

[@jettsetter7]

Can’t forget the Grand Canyon down south here for low level, Gelo! I’ve heard it’s sick!

[@neerajguy2001]

Great episode. Loved the EW renditions, this guy has great sense of humour.

[@gb7418]

Awesome episode - I can’t remember if you’ve done a wild weasel episode - I’ll have to check now. If not any chance of doing that?

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Not yet Grape, but it’s on the horizon.

[@tomaszwota1465]

@@FighterPilotPodcast Hi, I'm from the future. That episode was _AWESOME_ !

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

@@tomaszwota1465 🤩

[@jimmydesouza4375]

I always thought it was odd that the Yugos or whoever they were in behind enemy lines were using British StarStreak missiles. I wonder why the director chose that.

[@couchfighter]

I was gunna crack up if Scott O'grady was on...He was shot down in the middle of my uncles change of command at Tyndall. He had just left Aviano as squadron commander.

[@مراد-ش8ط]

I'm still watching it but it's Epiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiic

[@davidllewellyn5236]

Another great episode. Is it correct that at the start of Gulf War One the Coalition were most concerned with Roland and Crotale but ended up on day 1 having the most problems with Iraqi SA2 as they were so old no one had the correct ECW frequencies?

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

I never heard that (but that doesn't mean it isn't true).

[@molnibalage83]

I doubt about it. The SA-2 is a way too vague term. Iraq had the S-75M Vokhov variant (SA-2E). This speaks a bit about the other branch the SA-75 Dvina (SA-2A,B,F) kzbin.info/www/bejne/q4manmCDo8-mgaM

[@mobiuszero1018]

27:30- It is,in fact MANPADS: Man-Portable Air Defense System.

[@perrypp1]

Thank you! Pet peeve of ours.

[@richardpluim4426]

My girlfriends father was stationed in north Vietnam. His job was to teach the North Vietnam soldiers how to operate surface to air missles. He said the North Vietnamese were nice people.

[@molnibalage83]

And used quite well the S-75 Dvina. kzbin.info/www/bejne/q4manmCDo8-mgaM

[@Anuj-2]

Time well spent!

[@jamierobinson2570]

You are not a pilot, fake license

[@Anuj-2]

@@jamierobinson2570 lol

[@flightsimstuff5417]

Excellent as always!

[@dereks2042]

Speaking of combat aviation being a young person's job. I've overheard something from a Smithsonian Air & Space Museum tour, that's relevant. During WW2, it seems that the oldest pilot who flew combat missions on a regular basis was... 24 years old.....

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Hmm, interesting!

[@navyreviewer]

Greg "pappy" Boyington's call sign wasn't a reference to being in command. It was a reference to him being considered an old man. He was 27.

[@varmint87]

Something that I see a lot in DCS is beaming the Doppler radar to defeat a radar guided missile or SAM. Is it an effective technique in real world?

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Lots to that...depends on the type of missile, range away, countermeasures, awareness of the missiles location, etc...really to many things to say whether it would be effective or not based solely on the type of missile being shot.

[@milipedecentipede2005]

"Hey look at me!!" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAA GOD I LOVE THAT

[@amitnachman3840]

There are also I believe Anti-Radiation Surface to Air missiles that home in in emissions from EW or AWACS. Like a reverse HARM.

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Yeah, the AA-10E/F (R-27P/EP)...scary stuff!

[@molnibalage83]

@@FighterPilotPodcast I have never seen them on any plane. Against an AWACS with a slow rotating antenna even a HARM like missile has no use because the update about the target is way less frequent as needed. Just imagine an ARH Missiles which uses it's radar in every 6-10th seconds...

[@Aircrewinterview]

Great episode, Jell-O!

[@primarchechs7139]

Frankenstein SAM, interesting. I can think of one that was used in Yemen, a ground-launched version of an AA-10 Alamo D IR missile that supposedly took down an F-15.

[@jettsetter7]

AAA or the SAM can also just take out the crew too, theoretically Jetthro! My grandfather’s and his crew mate took a Golden BB hit to the canopy while inverted.

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Definitely true, Jett.

[@chrisl117]

The S-300/400 is an interesting system but definitely confusing with the number of variations. Then again, the SA-6 also has it's successor in the SA-11 Gadfly and SA-17 Grizzly.

[@zeitgeistx5239]

Its not one system but a family of systems. The Russians claim that you can cover the entire EM spectrum and all possible threats by mixing and matching different radar and missile systems, all without any interference between short and long range radar.

[@molnibalage83]

This is not true. www.mediafire.com/folder/ibpuhagkr7a8w/ENG_-_HT_Osszefoglalo In short below. S-10A = S-300PT, PT-1 SA-10B = S-300PS SA-20 = S-300PM/PMU1, S-300PM2/PMU SA-21 = S-400 The 2K12 Kub = SA-6 was a division level SAM for tank divisions, but because of the delay of the 9K33 Osa (SA-8) most of WPACT countries acquired the SA-6 and later the SA-6 or simply did not acquire the SA-8. The 9K331 Tor-M1 (SA-15) replaced both the Osa and the Kub and today both the mot. rifl. division and tank divisions have Tor-M1/2. The 9K37 Buk-M1 (SA-11) replaced on army level the 2K11 Krug (SA-4). Just check what I linked it explains lots of things.

[@mobiuszero1018]

25:43-23:45- Although Jethro is correct on the S-300(SA-10) SAM system,the SA-20 would be called the S-400.

[@rifledude303]

That’s actually not quite right...the SA-10 refers to early versions of the S-300 family, SA-20 to the much more capable S-300PMU-1/2, SA-21 to the S-400 (which was at one point known as S-300PMU-3), and SA-23 is the latest S-300V4 😊 Love the episode. I work as an Airpower specialist at a London think tank; great discussion with some of the best analogies I’ve heard to explain the different guidance systems! Cheers guys!

[@eriktruchinskas3747]

31:06 "MANPAD, reach out and touch someone ;)"

[@couchfighter]

OK, OK , You HAVE been busy Sir!!!

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

😎

[@jeepyb]

Props to the german linguist who called about flak haha perfect explanation

[@almerindaromeira8352]

Some points: 1)You didn't develop enough into IRST. They are gaining traction all over the world as their usable range gets competitive with radar and the susceptibility to flares decreases. Stealth is also circumvented. 2) New systems like the S400 are nasty. You can see some launches on KZbin and they rotate the missile in mid air after leaving the tube! 3) SELEX offers Britecloud wich us a RF jammer countermeasure. Nice addition. 4) The integrated nature of modern systems make their odds of impact much higher as you make it appear on this podcast. We are living in an era of anti-missile missiles! 5) another cool system is the newest Rheinmetall AAA gun for the german armed forces. Wherever that thing is pointed is not where I want to be. Just like with a plethora of other systems like the Israeli Iron Beam, Iron Dome and David's sling.

[@molnibalage83]

1. I disagree. A single IRST source can't track as many target as any radar. In fact generating track without data link is almost impossible even if you have shape recognition and a "AI" behind it with estimates the speed and distance of the target based on its shape. Stealth is anything but "circumvented". As long as we have weather... IRST is simply almost a useless to an area denial SAM. 2. You an read about the S-300/400 here besides many SAMs. www.mediafire.com/folder/ibpuhagkr7a8w/ENG_-_HT_Osszefoglalo

[@ChucksSEADnDEAD]

Stealth is not circumvented. Stealth also includes ways to mitigate IR emissions, meaning that a stealth aircraft will be harder to detect and track on IRST than a non-stealth one.

[@almerindaromeira8352]

@@ChucksSEADnDEAD when colloquially speaking about stealth, one assumes reduced signature in X and Ku Bands mostly. But yes, you are correct in saying that other optimization is done either on other radar bands and also in thermal signature.

[@almerindaromeira8352]

@@molnibalage83 IRST keeps getting better at a very high rate of improvement. And even in bad weather I believe a +1000°C heat source in the sky would stand out from noise. Especially if it constant and not a lightning which vanishes very fast.

[@molnibalage83]

@@almerindaromeira8352 In BVR the surface of the hot has plume is very small. The optics has resolution limit. Also what about the weather...? IRST always can be only a secondary sensor with very serious restrictions.

[@jettsetter7]

I wonder they used “G” for Earth’s gravitational constant / force between 2 bodies.

[@MrFloppyHare]

Is that a serious question..?

[@jettsetter7]

@@MrFloppyHare uh yeah are you not up to date on physics? Lol

[@ChucksSEADnDEAD]

I think bad wifi ate my reply, G is for Ground. F is for Fighter and B is for Bomber.

[@Anderson_Hwang]

The ALE-50 and the newer ALE-55 towed decoy on the Rhinos are the secret weapons of defeating radar homing SAMs, but I guess for obvious reasons you guys can't talk about them :p

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

🤫

[@gb7418]

Nice background art!

[@schwappingmags1008]

the background art is always stunning!

[@hippoace]

Imagine facing a full Russian IADS with AAA & SAMs....sounds scary...

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

No thank you!

[@finixhawkeye3213]

My grandpa, Meternal Uncle and Cousin brother all are and were fighter pilots. Legacy goes from Hurricanes, Hunters, Mig 29s, Su30Mki. I wanted to be a fighter pilot also. But got specs when I was 12. My uncle said to me, I could still become a pilot but not in a fighter jet. I told em, I am not piloting an aircraft if doesn't have an ejection seat. 😂😂😂😂 Adding to the humour 16:00

[@mike28003]

Co or Xo of VFA-22? Oh YACBAR VFA-22 line div 95-98.

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

Both. The XO fleets up to CO.

[@mike28003]

@@FighterPilotPodcast if I remember right one of my Xo's transfered before he got Co in the squadron.

[@molnibalage83]

If anybody interested in the how any why the evolution. S-25 Berkut / Sosna kzbin.info/www/bejne/mKrIYodmrZufptE SA-75 Dvina kzbin.info/www/bejne/q4manmCDo8-mgaM Hopefully I get the chance making the video about the S-75, S-125, S-200 and finally the S-300 family.

[@Fast85FoxGT]

Lol @ the dove hunting hater. Also the Flak explanation in the beginning was neat.

[@brellnob]

The F-14 does what it does best. 😂

[@Whiskey11Gaming]

So.... everything? :)

[@bret9741]

Lol…. Can’t make some people happy…. A podcast about fighter pilots, war and your vilified for hunting birds. Wow…. good thing your already called Jell-O. Otherwise had this come out while you were in training……. it might have been “Dove Hunter”. Here is an exert from from the Federal Fish and Wildlife department. “The mourning dove (Zenaida macroura) is one of the most abundant bird species in North America, and is familiar to millions of people. Authority and responsibility for management of this species in the U.S. is vested in the Secretary of the Interior…….Maintenance of dove populations in a healthy, productive state is a primary management goal. Management activities include population assessment, harvest regulation, and habitat management. Each year, tens of thousands of doves are banded and thousands of wings from harvested doves are analyzed to estimate annual survival, harvest rates, recruitment, and abundance….. The population is estimated to be between 180,000,000 and 200,000,000 million in this specific family of dove”.

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

There's no reasoning with some people.

[@bret9741]

@@FighterPilotPodcast nope… like arguing with a rock.

[@luisalizondo4973]

S300 is the old system. The new system is S400 and introduced 2004. This is a terrible show!

[@amitnachman3840]

Oh no they made a mistake! Burn them on the stake.

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

@@amitnachman3840 Yeah, I guess we should just shut down and go cry in the corner.

[@amitnachman3840]

@@FighterPilotPodcast Actually I went and checked wikipedia and its says the S-400 used to be called the S-300PMU-3. So maybe not even a mistake. I just discovered the podcast two weeks ago and I am bringing like crazy.

[@FighterPilotPodcast]

@@amitnachman3840 Glad to have you! And, yeah, even if we made a mistake it certainly wouldn't be the first time (and it won't be the last).

[@amitnachman3840]

@@FighterPilotPodcast Oh I noticed mistakes before. I am more intrested in the stories from pilots than the specific caliber of a gun or the maximum g of a plane. I was a tank commander in the IDF and there are plenty of numbers I just don't remember anymore but I can sure some (non)sea stories, mostly about all the lunatics I served with. I actually wish there was a podcast like this with AFV crews from around the world.