10.2 Current WINNERS & LOSERS of DPS Tier List w/ The WoW Community

Social media & stream:
/ maximum
/ maximum
Huge shoutout to Everyone for coming on!
Goop: / goop
Azortharion: / azortharion
Critcake: / critcakeeu
Taeznak: / taeznak
Thdlock: / thdlock
Kalamazi: / kalamazi
Jfunk: / jfunkgaming
MissMarvel: / missmarvel
Wordup: / von_wordup
Publik: / publikpriest
Hopefulx: / hopefulx
HawkCorrigan: / hawkcorrigan
Goop: / goop
Foreverguy: / foreverguy5
Hey guys! 10.2 Patch Notes were released recently, and in that there was a ton of massive class changes as well as the brand new tier sets for 10.2 - So I decided to call up some community members to have them rank how their current spec is feeling going into 10.2 with the changes. Hope you enjoy 10.2 Current WINNERS & LOSERS of DPS Tier List
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Introduction: 0:00
Hunter w/ Azortharion: 0:34
Warrior w/ Critcake: 26:06
Death Knight w/ Taeznak: 36:00
Warlock w/ Thdlock & Kalamazi: 52:30
Windwalker w/ Jfunk: 1:20:00
Augmentation w/ Chat: 1:27:42
Havoc w/ Chat: 1:33:32
Random Ret & Warrior Bit: 1:40:57
More Havoc w/ Chat: 1:42:00
Feral w/ MissMarvel: 1:42:56
Evoker w/ Jereico: 1:47:56
Retribution w/ Bolas: 1:56:45
Enhance w/ Wordup: 2:00:14
Shadow w/ Publik: 2:05:35
Mage w/ Hopefulx: 2:17:03
Elemental w/ HawkCorrigan: 2:21:52
Moonkin w/ Goop: 2:27:00
Rogue w/ Foreverguy: 2:33:04
#maximum​​ #liquidmaximum #dragonflight

[@fronkacean]

yo made a mistake with the windwalker graphic that shit is not babylonius it is Jfunk... my bad

[@cookingwithhedonismbot8900]

The last time you made a mistake Dratnos went in for the kill, I'll pray for you.

[@sundancej]

windwalkers and mistakes, name a better duo

[@kreyton3312]

Mkae ci de o

[@dratnos]

typical

[@thelastspectre8141]

They should have just made pi give 25% haste for the priest and 5% haste to 4 additional allies for the duration so its just a slight buff to everyone in mythic plus and not a spell 1 person enters a god burst mode that everyone fight for and not a spell the whole group is trying to play around. That way they are completely gutting the power the priest gets but the borrowed power the priest brings, making it where it would be nice to have but not a mandatory to have.

[@Poooopdollar]

Some variation of this idea actually sounds pretty great. Priest catching strays from their own CD being too beneficial for other classes is one of the most blizz things I've ever seen

[@Labneh9102]

Also another problem priests have is that for example, as they talked about, lots of specs are not haste dependant like sub rogues. So to fix the hunter problem and that problem, they should make a PI for crit and a PI for mastery on different classes. Like hunters should get a PI for crit cause thematically I think that makes sense, and warriors bring a mastery PI like a banner or something. It's more just a spitball, but something like that makes sense to me.

[@Poooopdollar]

@@Labneh9102 they can't even balance pi though, not sure giving multiple different iterations of pi is good 🤣

[@csele008]

its impressive by blizzard to be able to take out the fun, skill and dmg of demo at the same time

[@oatfarls]

They actually took every single bit of fun out of Demonology Warlock with these changes. Let's pray that they roll some of them back. It's sort of baffling that they only thing they can think of in terms moving damage away from its CDs is buffing Shadow Bolt and Demonbolt.

[@YmpiCZ]

Damn i stopped playing in s1 DF and after i watched the warlock section because i was curious what's going on in my spec, I was terrified to find out that rolling back to Shadowlands would improve the spec in every way possible in terms of fun. I mean the expansion should never be brought up again, but every Demo build i played in Shadowlands was much better than what I just witnessed is happening in DF. They got rid of Demonic Consumption, Grimm inquisitor's (I know it's a talent now), Implosive potential and in return made Nether Portal the thing (Which is pretty antifun cooldown itself) and now they butchered even that lol.

[@phulcq6716]

​@@YmpiCZimplosive potential was so much fun in m+. Most fun demo has ever been imo.

[@Clewlessly]

@@phulcq6716Agreed, Demo warlock season 3 and 4 of SLs was the most fun I’ve ever had with the spec, its bee just trending downhill since and now its full dead

[@akinney123]

I played warlock for the first time s1 and played exclusively demo. Had a blast and the tier set was sick too with extra mobility. Stopped playing the second I read the patch notes changing the spec and played Ret pally. No idea what they're thinking or how no one is being held accountable for the horrible demo changes.

[@lancejohnson3278]

I’m fine with the goal of more consistent damage patterns to nerf Aug and to make specs like Demo and Unholy less feast or famine. If you get hit with a big mechanic during your ramp you kind of just don’t deal damage GGs. But this is not it 😂

[@AndrewNajash]

There’s just something about clicking the warlock time stamp and learning about Dratnos’ grave misunderstanding of how showers work and the idea of AoE washing clothes that adds a little something you just don’t get with other tier lists. Edit(and a very important one): It does raise a question though, does Dratnos use his 3 in 1 shampoo+conditioner+body wash for each one the these banked showers? One must imagine whatever natural bacteria lived on him experiencing something akin to a biblical flood of 3 in 1

[@ciaranm3083]

dratnos the type of guy to dry his junk AND THEN his face

[@vilhjj]

Confused as fuck timestamp lmao

[@Sanzofunke]

I've been a warlock main for 18 years but now after hearing about THD's AOE cleaning I'm quitting warlock...

[@Azortharion]

Thanks for having me on to talk Hunter!

[@painfullyavarage4316]

I love how the tank and healer video thumbnails are just max chilling and DPS is just. Pain. Very fitting

[@BSGNZ]

Hunter's Mark should be the "raid buff". Something like 5% extra Damage to marked target plus mobs within in 8yds.

[@off-meta9962]

5 % of all dmg would be too much and another hassle to press every pull. Make it 3 % dmg and remove Dependance on hunters Mark and it'll be good.

[@nexiee]

Hunter's used to have Trueshot Aura which they could also re-introduce in some way.

[@MarkElf2204]

​@@off-meta9962tf are you on about?

[@curtharakaly4620]

what are you talking about dude???? Too much "and another hassle"??? Ah yes, because Hunters have soooooo much to do prepull that pressing one button is going to completely ruin the class.@@off-meta9962

[@angrygun7826]

​@@off-meta9962hunters having to press more then 3 buttons 😭😭 here's a hot take, make the hunter class actually take skill in anyway

[@sydsweiner6516]

Oh Max I was refreshing your page like 5 times a day waiting for this one I knew it was going to be a wait. ❤️

[@Nagassh]

I don't know if other classes have the same issue, but my biggest gripe with warlock talent changes is the amount of talents that do something that are being replaced with passive % damage tuning. Every patch removes a talent or two that has a gameplay impact to replace it with damage modifiers that should be tuning done by the developers, not put into the players hands. Warlock talent trees are at a point where I think they're probably worse than the MOP / SL style ones. There's about as much choice as there used to be but you now sometimes miss things that used to be baseline like ROF in a ST spec or Banish for niche situations. I hope Blizzard stop clogging the trees up with tuning. It's that kind of lazy design that resulted in talent trees being axed to begin with.

[@TheSilverwing999]

Very good point here. Putting tuning into trees is bad. And completely agree that somehow warlock is like the only class that has worse design after new trees

[@drageras]

AND ITS CONTINUED INTO WAR WITHIN. FIRE THE DEV

[@lactoseintolerantgaming2711]

I had fun with this video by playing each of the classes as I listened to their changes being discussed in the background (I did not play each spec)

[@Zapgg]

I've never been so happy to see a video be 3 hours long. This is the fcking juice.

[@koalakakes]

Every rogue problem hasnt been fixed. We've been complaining about button bloat for ages but our community figure heads are all mythic .01% 1 trick raiders so they dont care to talk about that part

[@jeffl6394]

I'm surprised Azor didn't mention two of the biggest issues with the 10.2 changes. 1. Call of the Wild summons pets that last 6 seconds, but they spawn on the Hunter and walk to the target. At max range, it takes 4-5 seconds to get there, which makes Call of the Wild a melee ability. At range, it loses a lot of its damage. (Edit: Was just on PTR and they're now even slower. At max range, they fade away before they even reach the target.) 2. The CotW choice node that makes all pets stomp happens on spawning. If the pet spawns on the Hunter at range, Stomp hits nothing.

[@MarkElf2204]

As someone who's played survival all of S2, I have no problem being in melee as BM

[@curtharakaly4620]

Yea, I mainly stay a few feet behind everyone else in melee as BM, since in high keys it's better to be all stacked and close most of the time anyway. But BM and MM are ranged classes not melee. You can't have their talents and abilities built towards being in melee, especially when the tier set and mini talent rework they are doing is geared towards summoned pets. Any extra summoned pets should either spawn where your pets currently are or on your current target. Not at player location, when pets movement speed is all over the place and wonky.@@MarkElf2204

[@curtharakaly4620]

I guarantee it won't even got touched at all either. Our normal pet AI has been royally f**ked for years and nothing has been done about it. So I can only imagine how much less they will care to bother will summoned beasts. There is no reason for dire beasts/summon pet to spawn at you instead of on your pets and/or current target and it wouldn't even be hard to change the code.

[@QPoily]

@@curtharakaly4620 Man it's crazy how unresponsive pets feel nowadays. Back in wotlk/cataclysm they responded so snappily to commands. When I leveled one through Legion it took like half a second for my pet to respond to being called back or being told to /petattack.

[@Malavander]

Goodfellas is one of those movies where when it pops up on TV I drop whatever I'm doing to watch it again.

[@jorickthekek2660]

I’d love to see a class dev completely “rework” a core ability like Seed of Corruption but basically just reword it completely differently and leave it exactly the same mechanically and see how people react to the change.

[@davidmiles1295]

Let's gooooo! Been waiting for this one!

[@peterparkerspiderman7875]

I love this concept! Please never stop making these!

[@Smrt927]

Assassination damage has to be heads and tails over the other two to endure the pain of melee range multidot in M+. I did it in BfA and felt like sandpaper compared to outlaw "pick the most convenient mob to do your single target rotation on with blade flurry" or sub "pick anywhere vaguely in the area and pretend you're doing arcane explosion"

[@toreole5831]

The funny thing about chillstreak with frost dk is (and i dont know if its a bug) that the bounces off yourself do not count for the maximum of jumps it does. So the ability will hit your target 12 times and can easily do up to a full million damage during pillar with current gear. And thats really funny

[@lichmourne00]

Sounds like they avoided the problem of the bounces on you being pointless and cutting chillstreaks damage in half in ST.

[@Komvunis]

Chapters are a bit messed up - I was looking for DK, found it at 36:02 for anyone wondering

[@LimitMaximum]

should be fixed!

[@RobTunes]

I LOVE Monk, WW especially - it's so painful how much the devs just neglect this spec. I always feel like I'm playing it in spite of the game, not as a part of the game. Also I don't see how Prescience on Tank in M+ is giga cringe - if you tank can do big dam, this is fine

[@MattGreenland1]

I loved my windwalker. I started playing in legion and it has been my main since. I changed to warlock this expansion because I was so sick of the class being neglected and being forced into talents I didn't want to play.

[@toemasmeems]

What talents?

[@MattGreenland1]

@@toemasmeems bonedust brew, the thing that jumps you forward (before they added a toggle for it a year later) the nightfae one. I hate that for the class to work it needs a 40% buff to fists of fury every patch. I hate that it doesnt scale with haste so you end up doing shit damage at the end of the expansion every time.

[@Jariyu1]

You can guarantee 4 ebonmight targets on pull for Aug by using timeskip to have 3 presciences out and standing on top of your last ebonmight target. The tier set means we get a big prescience out early with the triple prescience opener, or with a minute pull timer you could theoretically do a quad prescience opener by using the timeskip after the 3rd prescience, if 2 augs buff the big burst dps with quad prescience, lust and trinket the damage potential is actually insane.

[@Naturalhighz]

there's no way they aren't working on nerfing aug massively. They cannot justify it taking up 3-4 raid spots.

[@daethmer7834]

Damn literraly the day I hit 70 on my demo and mm

[@Orthane]

Hey guys, here to talk about the Warrior changes for 10.2 today! Alright thanks for reading see you next tier!

[@zuralani1]

also

[@novapod236]

although

[@Lasp9992]

however

[@Shihamute]

"AoE cleaning clothes" is the most THD thing i've ever heard

[@ml2129]

Was it in cata that hunters had pets for like 4 different buffs ? I mean for World First race it would not really help but for casual/midcore guilds it would be nice to be able just take a hunter because monk or DH are missing etc

[@poorwowgameplay]

My biggest concern with warriors is that we only need one for the raid buff and our biggest utility overlaps now with Evoker. So dps warrior is definitely on the chopping block for mythic teams. So it mostly comes down to what role is best for your monk and how strong DH will be after their rework.

[@TimeTom2]

the intro has never been so real after the nerf annoucement

[@booradley6832]

2:00:00 The argument about Ret paladins not having enough skill expressiveness. This is what talents and choice nodes are supposed to do. What's "supposed to happen" is necessary mechanics are tailored to meet the requirements of different players, like to give you the choice between taking a fire-and-forget cooldown to do 20% more damage or a harder to set up and execute 30% buff that only does about 10% if you mess it up. That's actually the most ideal setup of the game, because it gives everyone the chance to continually improve without leaving anyone truly behind. If someone is struggling with rotation, boss mechanics, resource capping or generation, the 20% buff is fine, work on your mechanics. If someone can do their entire rotation subconsciously while watching netflix, then yeah they should have something that engages them too. As long as both players feel that they're mastering the control of their build to a level that defeats the difficulty they've chosen, the value and enjoyment to both players should be about equal. But without that, either the first player is drowning in mechanics or the second player is bored off their tits until they quit wow for Harry Potter ERP. Now that I think about it, time to quit wow....

[@hjd7354]

demo designer should be fired on the spot

[@MalixFarwin]

i doubt they do anything to aug dmg, it may get some utility nerfs but thats about it(in fact i think they will get dmg buffs and its obvious they are mini-reworking burst classes for that reason)

[@Jereico]

Can’t believe my guy fronk did Aug like that in the intro

[@colocode6979]

the hunt reduction in havocs 4 set is 48 seconds over a 5 min fight. thats 12 secs from an extra hunt

[@Clewlessly]

My favourite part of the new dev patch notes is that they did “changes” to WW’s tier set and basically all they did was take the word Toes out of the description 😂

[@katzicael]

Windwalker main here, I've had a "Feeling" bout WW being trash going into the new patch. I'd been eyeing alts (Back to my druid most likely at this point). WWalker has been so - Meh this tier, i've done good numbers and had good parses but it's just - so dependant on externals which feels bad when RNG hates you.

[@bobbyjones9461]

Marks hunter also has bursting shot utility in their spec tree that competes for scare dps talents, especially in aoe build (in response to havoc utility on spec tree)

[@QPoily]

I think hunter could really afford to at least have its jack-of-all-trades status back like in Cata/MoP/WoD. Basically it's THE class that's able to sub in any raid buff through the usage of pets. It was a really cool mechanic to have IMO from the hunter's perspective, raidleader's perspective, and from the other players in the group's perspective. I guess the main issue however is that since many raidbuffs are already locked to only single classes, it could mean hunter replacing those classes their spots if hunter ends up doing noticeably more DPS than them. Still think it's worth exploring as it just made life so much easier for everyone involved. Shit, even if they're like -1% worse than the 'real' raidbuffs they'd be super nice to have in any small-form or casual raiding group. But really, just let them bring the full effect of any missing raidbuff. Also speaking of general raid utility, why the hell does Aspect of the Cheetah not function as a Stampeding Roar anymore. That alone is an additional niche that it should be able to bring, AGAIN (why even remove it in the first place...)

[@mooonpaw]

What a brutal beginning. Damn lol

[@WRXnumberSeven]

hey, i havent played since BFA, is now a good time to get in or better wait until 10.2?

[@superstandardman]

Hunter's should get the raid utility of summoning raid members to their location; similar to warlock closet. They can have giant eagles pick up the targeted member; that would be a win thematically and in utility.

[@yiannikounoupis3298]

Unironically based. Just reuse the ones from Legion and add a tiny animation with an eagle swooping by from above upon successful summon.

[@boredflower]

Warlocks still offer more, an RP themed gimmick like summon pales in comparison to soul stone and health stone

[@jasonalbert530]

Why not make two lists like last time distinguishing m+ and raids?

[@Fleato]

after only playing demo lock a bit into this patch ive got to say the changes they made to the tier and stuff 100% make it so much better, though I still have to tab target spread boom brand but idk I like it.... I'm feeling pretty good right now as demo.

[@thunder9236]

100% agree about grand warlocks design, it belongs in the class tree. Divine toll made the switch, this should too. Demo is getting nuked. Right now it feels good but 10.2 is going to murder demo locks. Havoc i think is a sleeper set. If soulrend will apply with this tier, its gonna be amazing in aoe. Feral, arms, bm, and unholy dk are all looking good.

[@Frawt]

"10.2 is going to murder demo locks" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA God, fuck warlock players.

[@booradley6832]

Potential Power Infusion fix- make it effectively a mini bloodlust of a 2 minute CD with 2 minute debuff (so you cant chain cast it) of either a raid wide 8-12% haste buff for a short period(10-15 seconds, maybe you could talent it so its 12% for 10s or 8% for 15s) or a 4-5% all secondary stats buff for even less time(8s?). Hell even give them a choice node why not. Its still infusing power but it takes the guild and raid politics out of it, gives it a niche that is not bloodlust but still something exciting when it goes off and even could be flexibly adapted by those wishing to be as efficient as possible based on the fight- haste version for tight enrage timers, all stat version for survivability check fights.

[@MarkElf2204]

Why should any class be getting a mini lust for free every 2m? No, just remove it entirely

[@booradley6832]

Because you arent the only player to play the game? A lot of players are attached to a core of their class that has existed since classic. Also players like to experience things that are "fun" and moments of "excitement." After the pruning backlash of BFA, they have good reason to try to fix things before taking them out, and if the single target power bump of PI is its biggest problem, make that bump smaller and spread it out.

[@sarahsigman5010]

"Why should any class be getting a mini lust for free every 2m" >Free >Talent Search results not found please enter new keywords.

[@TheSilverwing999]

​@@MarkElf2204 Because its fun for everyone?

[@DanDanChair3427]

Life-long Feral main. Really happy to see they're in a good place this patch.

[@JaredKelso123]

Already cut the 4 set in half since this video and it was undocumented. So it's basically the same as every time Feral gets a good set bonus, they go and kill it.

[@galumian4840]

​@@JaredKelso123It was not cut in half, they just fixed some of its bugs, it was dealing more damage than expected. Since nothing has changed, the tier set bonus is still looking great.

[@Munno22]

execute being delayed isn't a bug its an animation & is how the ability is designed. the bug is that it doesn't apply the bleed when it consumes SD if SD procs during the animation

[@Bacon-egg-cheese]

I got timed out for 30 minutes in chat for asking how I skip the healer section and at the end of the 30 minutes they were still talking about the same healer

[@toreole5831]

Amen to enhance funnel. Was my favourite thing to do during shadowlands with prim wave. The big shards in halls of atonement? Yeah. Did 80% of my dps into them took aggro and died. Good times

[@happyclam1266]

Max will jump at any chance to shit on arcane. Just wink and he'll come running with the big one to slam on it.

[@DaBearGaming]

Hunters should be able to buff depending on the pet they use. Basically Dino’s are like +1-2% Stam and birds give like 1% verst. Nothing to big but a reason to have 1 and possibly more hunters. Since they are one of the most popular classes. Those were examples not actually much thought out buffs for species.

[@Mykoymia]

Back in WoD hunters were able to fill in for a buff if your group didn't have it. E.g. if your group didn't have a mage then they could use a pet that gave 5% int buff.

[@Jeckkz]

Completely disagree as that would just lock hunters into certain pet classes ..... For Hunter pets they need to remove their 'spec', and allow the hunter to choose what class they are. This would allow more pet variety and let us use pets we have sitting in our stables doing nothing. Just give hunters a raid buff , it's a pretty simple fix for what is seen as a large issue

[@Erik_Arnqvist]

@@Mykoymia I loved that, remember wolves gave 5% crit

[@MarkElf2204]

@@Jeckkz Hunters are basically already locked into lust pets for m+ and tenacity for raid usually.

[@isaacstetson5720]

@@Jeckkzso you propose they just stick to not having a raid spot and not being invited. As opposed to picking a certain pet and locking in a spot. Lol?

[@Faelystiri]

Yooo MissMarvel for feral druid that makes me really happy

[@chlorosofor]

as a person who played demo lock this expansion. When they started to talk about the changes i was physically cringing

[@bryankuhl8467]

Dear blizzard...just hire kalamazi to fix warlocks.

[@TheRealAb216]

As an elemental shaman i have never speced mana spring and never will.

[@jako997]

Facts. It's so bad and weak like why would any elemental shaman play that haha

[@Mmrraazz]

Warlock Dev in over their head. Was in a good spot in SL and has been in shambles since.

[@TheSoberCannibal]

This is one of the best parts of every patch

[@user-nj3eq8zs2z]

I hope I'm right but I think hunters and windwalker might be going through a rework for the new expansion, or at least I hope so

[@TheKabukimann]

If dimensional Rift hit all targets with immolate on them then it would be an awesome fun and powerful talent.

[@dakotaholliday6295]

I think they could really do something cool with hunter traps. Make hunter traps triggerable (dk if that's even a word) by your allies and when triggered by allies they do special effects. Like Ice trap when triggered could do an iceblock effect for a few seconds or like immo trap when triggered could light weapons on fire making their attacks do extra fire dmg. Just some ideas off the top of my head that could be really cool and make hunters more useful.

[@Jeckkz]

A friendly tap that grants Ice-Block is actually a cool idea. It would certainly be different. You could have a soak ability and the hunter throws a trap down and the person who gets the mechanic just goes and stands in the trap for an absorb/immunity.

[@OilySeagull]

probably the most cool hunter idea ive seen and the theme for it is pretty cool,

[@jamesjohnsoniii8068]

What would Snake Trap do? 😊

[@AngryDrumman]

As a warlock I'm glad I'm not playing right now lol

[@BurntToast256]

As a Windwalker main... it just feels bad. :(

[@jmezo6656]

Sharing shower strats is some next level shit! LOL

[@CoffeeTheFreshmaker]

wtb DK dots scaling with haste though. When that happening?

[@tarawright4339]

"I have a rogue to call if he ever shows up" lol yup, that sounds like a rogue main

[@MrKamex]

2:09:50 Buffing twins is not the way to go. Changing it is. I know it's not as big of a deal but if you nerf PI and just buff twins you still get the nerfed PI when you're solo and not PIing someone else. There needs to be some extra clause saying "power infusion is X% stronger on yourself"

[@booradley6832]

The execute delay thing is, and I say this with no insight from the developer team at all, I believe a pvp concern to stop warriors from being able to one tap you off a heroic leap or intercept without any possiblity of counterplay. Execute was instant and immediate in early PVP seasons and it made warriors stupidly powerful.

[@stuff4812]

problem wit hthat argument is, execute isnt one of the stronger pvp buttons you can press atm, mortal strike does more damage in pvp than execute

[@booradley6832]

@@stuff4812 True but also correlation vs causation. Execute is weak in pvp NOW, yes. When they made the change it probably wasnt. If you look back through the patches you'll find a time when obscure, low damage things like overpower were used to literally one shot someone from 100 to zero (Taste for Blood at five stacks, Mists of Pandaria.) Live service games get these weird sedimentary levels of changes where they have to do something about Crisis A today, so they make a change then in a year Crisis F rolls over the same talent/ability without any reverts to the solution for Crisis A being considered. Keep doing that for a few years and things get really weird when the problems of today repeatedly meet with the solutions of yesterday.

[@angrygun7826]

​@@stuff4812yeah because crit was nerfed and it's a bleed build now because of massive buffs, burst damage warrior class is cancer in pvp

[@jamesjohnsoniii8068]

Also to note (idk the viability of it) there is a PVP talent that makes Execute have like a 30yd range and jump you to the target like charge.....on second thought maybe that talent is why there is a slight delay?🤔

[@wundergod]

except you can get the instant execute back by untalenting massacre its pure flavor because they wanted to keep the condemn animation in the game without keeping condemn

[@kingKapuzina]

While Frostset is just a rework of the last t-set, it feels much better since you have to play gs anyway. Actually just yeeting your gs when it is up feels more natural. Gainwise its bad compared to other sets

[@jeremyyoung8070]

Hunters don't need a rework. The sentinel owl talents need to be replaced with real raid utility

[@Finn3h]

was hoping arms set would at least let you get juggernaut stacked up some but they just fall off most of the time :(

[@Dantarn]

I think we all knew coming into this that Warlock was going to be the longest section of the Warlocks desperately saying "We aren't gonna be toptier! Believe us this time!"

[@gustavo7074]

I can't wait to hear THD comments on it . Gonna hear all of it while doing chores lol

[@phulcq6716]

It's very hard for warlocks to not be top tier in raiding. They barely require healing and can do lots of different types of damage across the three specs with basically no differential gearing required. So if they're even halfway decent they'll be at least A tier for raiding. But that doesn't mean they'll have broken DPS or be anything remarkable in m+. But I think a lot of people think they are perpetually busted in those respects. And every patch we hear about how demonology is going to be the best spec in the game "again" when in fact it's generally top 5 at best if you have perfect gear and a dedicated PI, and well below average otherwise.

[@Frawt]

@@phulcq6716 So make them...require healing. Also, hunters and rogues also have "different types of damage across the three specs with basically no differential gearing required" (crit/haste for hunters this tier, a combination of everything but haste for rogues) and they have no issue with all three specs being shit...so why the fuck is this some kind of 100% prevention of not being top tier for warlocks? Oh, wait, 'cause it's Blizzard's special little child, the warlocks, and warlock players continue to sandbag (including you).

[@TheVynka]

​@@Frawtbro, chill. Hunter damage is good, they are not brought because they lack other stuff and warlock is almost mandatory for SS on wipes, Healthstones and Gateway, so having a mandatory spec doing shit damage would feel extremely bad and that's why it's guaranteed that they will have at least one good spec that will be the preferred spec for the mandatory lock, that's all there is.

[@OilySeagull]

@@phulcq6716 agree demo without external or op trinks/interaction is meh until you do some decent gearing. this season looks to change all that though

[@booradley6832]

1:20:55 "if that was a druid talent it would be fixed in three months" Oh yeah, druids get all the attention. They haven't been sitting with a busted class tree for the entire expansion. "We know you're supposed to be a very flexible hybrid class known for bringing useful utility, so we're going to railroad you into taking everything throughput related for a spec you dont actually want. We want to make sure you end up with an abomination of a talent spec because you cant go from the top left to the bottom right and vice versa. Oh and we made sure most of the nodes for the off spec we force you to take on the way are entirely irrelevant to the spec you're trying to build. We also made sure the pathing is made of long stretches you cannot change course during. Something something class fantasy. Your thrash, frenzied regen, ironfur specced moonkin will thank us later. Oh and we made sure it takes six points of mostly passive cat throughput to let your resto druid get a kick but still not let them have a viable cat burst with those points. Words words meaningful choices words. Oh and we pushed all the utility off to the side in dead end splits off other throughput talents." -Blue post explaining how an adult who definitely finished middleschool designed this class.

[@samisuhonen9815]

They really got to completely remake demonology warlock. They should NOT be about summoning an entire army of demons. It's not good for the game's performance, and it gets lost in all the clutter. What demo should be about, is summoning a few types of really powerful demons as cooldowns, and using demonic power to amplify their own spellcasting. This would be supported by still having the iconic fel guard pet. But instead of spawning these random imps and hordes of dogs, opening a portal to pour 20+ demons out of... you would summon doomguards, pitlords, infernals etc. And maybe the greater demons would even have a limit to one active at a time baseline, because it takes all of your power to dominate just one. (maybe a talent to increase number for bursty builds?). And the talents etc would just be about these powerful demons empowering your abilities as a caster, as well as your ability as a caster to amplify the damage of these demons. And in terms of caster rotation, the main pet currently feels too disconnected from the rotation. Demo should have more stuff like demonic strength and soul strike baseline. Basically abilities like kill command, that order your pet to do a more powerful action.

[@nickl90210]

I just started playing wow again, can anyone tell me this guy's UI addons?

[@jako997]

Hawkcorrigan was being to nice on the elemental shaman tier set. It really should be around the bottom of feels bad. The damage just isnt there and the 2pc is pretty lackluster. It doesnt exactly change anything except that we are going back to the fire build but the play style is mostly the same as season 1. 4pc just seems bad all around. Idk how this will honestly work in mythic + since we lose a lot of aoe now. I know its super early right now but blizzard needs to address the tier set soon

[@murrloc1859]

Lmao that intro

[@Adaptinglol]

Best video about ptr

[@QPoily]

1:23:42 somewhat related to the free Blackout Kicks WW monks get occasionally, I still hope for a time when the free BlK causes your monk to do a left foot kick going to the left and because it's technically a different attack therefore causes it not count towards your mastery. The free Blackout Kick feels really clunky and often times just not that good to consume within the WW monk rotation because most of the time in order to make use of it, you have to Tiger Palm which risks you munching your proc. And the fact that can happen just makes it not feel good IMO.

[@shaunybonny688]

on monk, doesn't "melee attacks" mean any melee attack, not just white damage weapon swings which monk don't do a lot of.

[@shaunybonny688]

nvm, they addressed this, lame ass tier set.

[@110160]

no critcake links in bio sadge.

[@DuckdaringZ]

Would hunters have too much power if they were given something like a mass shell effect on a 2.5 to 3 min CD?

[@curtharakaly4620]

probably yea. Having a 3min cd that negates all damage for everyone would be suppppper OP lol. But Hunter needs something.

[@colocode6979]

Add Hunter Party to hunters that buffs main stat of group members in someway.

[@Frstypwngaming]

*Hunter rolls charisma check at disadvantage for raid spot*

[@Palefox11]

I always laugh when you talk about to SV. "Who knows what it does." I do...I'm the only one.

[@MrAsmil]

can someone explain to me why sam thinks devastation evoker is tanky in raids, the spec strikes me as having the least survivability of anyone in their spec tree, on top of having breath abilities and shit range.

[@Luxumbra69]

When will devs learn that proc reaction specs with high skill ceilings are the most enjoyable classes/specs?

[@zachattack245]

"Spending this whole expansion crying in windwalker"

[@calamity0.o]

Especially when other classes just don't compare to the joy of monk. I've been leveling alts, monk ruins all of them.

[@Frstypwngaming]

Frost, and 3-min burst Window Unholy, need something that makes it more intuitive to play. Being forced to play at overcap Rune Power or Runes because you're generating more than you have the GCDs to spend to extend Remorseless Winter/Dark Transformation still feels real bad, and the only real bandaid for Frost is to play Breath but Breath makes it feel even worse because then you're just a Frost Mage on Sylvanas.

[@markuslc1888]

i ve enjoyed ret pally a lot since the rework, it's only a few things that need some love, if you do m+ you need to choose between single target and aoe, there is hardly no choice in between, go the one way you completely cripple the other way. if you play m+ in tyr. weeks and you go with the moreless default aoe spec, you do tank dmg at st bosses. i don't say it needs to be god tier, but comeone compared to other specs, which do moreless the same aoe but almost 50-70% more st on bosses? feels really bad "oh at least i ve beaten the healer and the augvoker" i just hope they slightly redesign the devine arbiter part of the tree and i hope they get rid of the 50.000 2/2 nodes in the class tree. since i play all classes in wow, i ve never seen a tree, where you are forced to take so many 2/2 nodes and so many are greyed out at the end, best example is seal of the crusader, a 1-1,5% dmg autoattack 2/2 node wtf

[@booradley6832]

Idk man from the POV of some other classes and as someone who plays every class at max level its kinda hard to believe. Your base kit has both an AoE and ST spender as well as some cleave or AoE options while still remaining ST spec. By virtue of tools alone with no talents you're set up to have more scenario coverage than a lot of other specs, and can easily come in in the 80-90th percentile on both being both geared and piloted equally well to others. Hardly crippled, ontop of the free survivability you get. It just sounds like you want to be top damage in both AoE and ST, and while that would be nice, it would also be really unfair to intentionally gear some classes to do ALL the damage and others to not do much at all. Making you spec into one or the other so everyone has a niche they fill the best in the group has been an answer to the long standing question of "how to make all the DPS players feel like they earned their gold star sticker and were the best so they dont go to the forums and have a tantrum."

[@markuslc1888]

@@booradley6832 it is what it is, yes you get a ST spender, which does mediocre dmg without the bottom left part, and you got an aoe spender, which does mediocre dmg without the aoe talents. cleave is non existent in st spec, during add phases at sarkareth mythic, you do very little dmg compared to other specs, which are also in pure st spec, wl, mage, warrior rogue, dh etc. all can do way more, and i ve never said ret should be the best in everything, but although the rework was a good one, the left bottom of the spec tree wasn't a great design, and i am not the only one with that POV, also playing other classes at that lvl, nowhere you need to sacrifice so much for different types of dmg profiles, cuz the hybrid versions ruin either ST or AOE, you can't spec in sth. like decent for everything.

[@Snowiy.]

As an Aug main I truly feel like the end is coming.

[@ertert4tetert]

I like Hopeful but mage really could have used a person (or people) who know more theorycrafting stuff and would give much more in depth answers

[@theyseemerowan]

LETS GOOOO

[@zerti86]

they need to nerf augmentation into the ground. all this spec does is reducing the dps slots in dungeons from 3 to 2

[@itskhro]

52:11 Oh nononono

[@dirtwerks3372]

Melee attacks are not auto attacks. Tiger palm, blackout kick, RSK are all melee attacks but are not auto attacks.

[@jimmartin7943]

30:00 this is a bug with the obliterate and condemn animation, i noticed this specifically on night elves and nightborne, it feels like you have high latency and is awful and clunky, no where have i heard blizzard mention anything about this, it truly sucks

[@IronAgeGamer]

Hopefully we get another undercover raiding soon

[@Eli-LM1301]

They literally went and nuked demo, I played lock for progression since start of Slands, I'm either going back to rogue or mage (probs rogue) like i did before lock. They killed demo, aff is still fun depending on the build you get to play during prog and in keys and destro is monkey brain 1 button so.