10 Doctor Who Controversies Fans Can't Agree On

[@422katieleigh]

lol at Chibnall not even being mentioned in the last one. I mean I agree, but still funny.

[@ghost-bison]

I mean I don't want to be mean because some episodes are good but I've been stuck on the same episode for 3 months.....

[@tempusspiritus]

1. The Doctor should avoid killing, but there’s no denying he has plenty of times. I love the line from Davros about how the Doctor abhors violence but fashions people into weapons as it’s true. One way or another death tends to follow the Doctor. 2. I loved Amy & Rory as they may be my favorite companions despite how much I love Donna, but yeah as soon as they came back divorced I felt like they’d stuck around too long. I think I even expected them to be gone already when that episode aired as I wasn’t keeping up with the show news so I was shocked to see them return in such a way. 3. I feel like the show has canon and it should define what is canon as it came first as well is what the majority of the fans are familiar with. Beep the Meep appearing in the show helped me to further cement the extended media as non-canon in my mind, unless stated in-show of course which then it’s not really extended media anymore rather it’s show content, as his tv appearance retcons his comic storyline. If they’re going out of their way to adapt stuff from the extended media then I feel we can assume the extended media typically isn’t seen as canon by the show-runners. The various nods to extended media like the 8th Doctor name dropping companions that only exist in extended media or the Shalka Doctor’s face seemingly making an appearance are however a bit confusing, though these are often one-off things that aren’t really covered again causing me to see them merely as Easter eggs for extended media fans. 4. I disliked Danny Pink from early on and while I could see his points of view sometimes they never really made him likable. I mean I don’t mind him being confrontational with the Doctor yet then we had him disapproving of Clara having anything to do with him resulting in her kinda sneaking around and I just didn’t see him adding anything of value to the show except unnecessary drama. 5. I don’t guess it matters to me much but the numbering system does help to organize it better in your mind as well as talk about it with others. Before you might tack on classic or new Who yet now we essentially have 3 different season 1s(I know New Who uses the term series but here in the US we typically say seasons so I’d probably mislabeled the 2005 series as season 1.) 6. While I didn’t like the changes made to them by Moffat, especially seeing them move, I think the angels working for the Division was even worse for some reason. I still like the concept of them somewhat but they’re not nearly as interesting. 7. Technically I believe the Doctor said Davros was his arch enemy but I want to say the Master/Missy are. Davros and the daleks are his most hated enemies yet the Master is essentially his opposite counterpart. Still, it’s a bit of a toss up. 8. I don’t mind a bigger budget if they can actually use it properly and I don’t think it should be overly done. For instance there were moments in Boom where I felt the backdrop looked very flat and obvious due to them using the super fancy screens. I’d like to see as much practical as possible and there’s some amazing, high budget practical stuff they can do instead of CGI. 9. In my opinion bi-generation added nothing of value to the series and instead opens up logic issues. The Legend of Ruby Sunday & Empire of Death are prime examples as we’ve got UNIT looking into what they say is a super obvious TARDIS anagram being used by a nationally known company which is also run by a woman named Susan yet the 14th Doctor is nowhere to be seen. I feel he should have been aware of S Triad Technologies regardless but especially given Donna(and Rose 🙄) now work at UNIT it should have been on his radar yet he’s presumably off on vacation with Donna. I also feel the in-universe reasoning for the bi-generation has essentially been retconned as we’re led to believe it’s for therapeutic reasons yet while admittedly the 15th Doctor may be over the destruction of Gallifrey & the flux he now is dealing with emotional baggage over being “adopted”, is apparently traumatized by the bi-generation despite that not remotely matching the attitudes of either Doctor when the bi-generation happened, and finally along with lingering issues he got new trauma from the flux 2.0 though given he reverses it he’s probably over it already. You’d think he’d have a better emotional grip over his “adoption” and the bi-generation if staying with Donna’s family was going to help that much. 10. It’s difficult as I loved the original RTD era yet I want to say Moffat is better. I know his overarching stories could get a bit messy, but boy were they good. RTD had some amazing episodes but when I look at comparing whole seasons Moffat rises to the top due to the way the episodes came together. I’d say the best RTD did with such writing was Series 4, but even then I heard rumors the Doctor Donna wasn’t always planned rather it was a way to get himself out of the corner he’d written himself into.

[@joshuapage6127]

I personally feel that Moffat story's with RTD as show runner is the perfect combination.

[@Becvar80]

This. Moffat is a decent show runner, but it's not his forte

[@wwswhl773]

@@Becvar80 whereas RTD is amazing as show runner but Moffat has the BEST episodes and villains when not running it!! i so agree!!

[@IreneWY]

200% agree

[@JeddHampton]

This seems like the obvious answer. Even in the whole rundown in the video, RTD's strengths are in running the ship, but his weaknesses are in his individual episodes. Moffat is the complete reverse. It seems the best combo is RTD running the show and cutting more of his episodes out while having Moffat in the writers room and director's chair for his episodes.

[@LCBK]

Who is the better show runner RTD or the grand moff Chibnall then appears in the ring yelling “don’t forget about me!” Then the fans come into the ring to pull him out

[@RandomRoss]

I think Steven Moffat made the Weeping Angels even more scary. The fact that they can also move in the dark, break necks, and use your vocal chords to speak.

[@theadamabrams]

Those parts are fine, but it was silly to say they would not move just because they thought someone whose eyes were completely closed was looking at them---they very obviously understood eyes open vs. closed from, well, BLINK. And showing them moving on screen was absolutely completely unequivocally bad.

[@SnowLily06]

​@@theadamabramsthats not even the problem. The problem is that the angels don't choose to stay still at all. Them turning to stone is a fact of their biology they have no choice over it. Another problem is that when they move they are still stone. The angels are not meant to be stone when they are not observed.

[@theadamabrams]

@@SnowLily06 Yes, you're right. (1) Their inability to move should be a physically-required response to observation, not a choice they make, and (2) even if it were a choice, they should not be dumb enough to be fooled by a person with closed eyes. I also like the idea that no one, including the audience, knows what their "true form" looks like, and that one seen of them moving on-screen (as stone) ruins that.

[@crickcrackcricketycrack5501]

Nope, made it worse in every way. Their unique killing method of forcing you back in time was objectively better and more original than physically killing like any other enemy. Using a dead persons voice to speak is indeed creepy but giving the angels words and insight into their intentions and what they want is just tell dont show storytelling. In blink we didnt need them to tell us what they wanted, we knew mainly theough visuals of them holding the tardis key and stealing the tardis from the police station when following sally there. And showing them move was awful. The idea of them choosing when to move was a stupid retcon of the excellent rules of they move when unobserved and literally become a stone object when seen

[@davidvanhorn3340]

Missy: "Wait, DAVROS is your arch enemy now? I'll scratch his eye out!"

[@judithstrachan9399]

She would, too!

[@masterfrf]

VOTE SAXON FOR PRIME MINISTER 🔥🔥🔥

[@ethanisadreamer]

can hear the drums from here

[@Iggymuncher]

HERE COME THE DRUMS 🗣️🔊🔊🔊🔊

[@ConstantOwl]

No

[@carwashgirl3541]

I wish they had "Vote Saxon" shirts on Amazon

[@DittoGTI]

Masterful plan my guy

[@SarahAndreaRoycesChannel]

I found the "controversies" often quite amusing, Moffat especially loved to make fun of them. But one from that era I loved most was that "fans" build this whole head canon of an antagonistic relationship between RTD and Moffat when in reality first of all RTD build Moffat up to the task of showrunner and secondly Moffat regularly consulted RTD during his run. I find it especially rewarding that Moffat returns as a screenwriter now.

[@crickcrackcricketycrack5501]

Hes much better writing stories than showrunning

[@akaakaakaak5779]

Yaz was around longer than Amy and Clara? I legit think of her as being a new companion who i know wayyy less about than, say, Martha

[@friendlyotaku9525]

@akaakaakaak5779 Yaz is one of very few companions who were around for a Doctor's entire tenure with her and Rose being the only ones though the Ninth Doctor was only around for one season. The only other companions to come close are Jamie and Tegan, Jamie missed out by one story and Tegan missed out by two.

[@tardistrailers]

That's because she had barely any characterisation. Only thing I know about her is that she's a police officer (which was like never relevant after the first episode) and fell in love with the Doctor for her last few episodes, before being unceremoniously thrown out of the TARDIS for not really any reason. We had more and better characterisation for Amy in her first episode.

[@saturnblue]

I think the way the Jodi era was done with long gaps and low episode counts really hurt our ability to get to know the characters. It also doesn't help that the stories weren't worth a re-re-rewatch in my opinion. All of the other doctors I will happily watch on a loop or week feel company while working from home, but not Jodie's story lines, they somehow feel Hollow.

[@saturnblue]

​@@friendlyotaku9525 that is so strange because I consider Sarah Jane to be the companion Who spent more time on screen. especially given she was with two doctors in her run and then the five doctors and then cameoed in multiple episodes of the new series. Not to mention starring into spin-off.

[@friendlyotaku9525]

@@tardistrailers "before being unceremoniously thrown out of the TARDIS for not really any reason" this is just false, the fact any people still say this is BAFFLING and Yaz certaInly had characterization so I really disagree with that take also.

[@TheRatt96]

I found Danny pink to be a decent character, he was like Jackie, a reason to go back. Clara had the notion of staying on earth but also traveling but Danny pink felt like he would be there for Clara and thus Clara would stay forever on earth. But then they killed him off and I was mad.

[@basilsigerson]

Love and Monsters walked so that Blink and Turn left could run.

[@RandomRoss]

And 72 Yards

[@robo3007]

And Human Nature/Family of Blood

[@VideoShogun]

Yeah 72 yards is the best ​@@RandomRoss

[@klaxoncow]

@@RandomRoss *73 yards

[@klaxoncow]

@@VideoShogun *73 yards

[@Anna-B]

I figured I’d put my opinions, add to the debate! 1. The Doctor should never kill someone if he has another choice. 2. Amy and Rory needed to either stay for their whole 3rd season or leave after the 2nd. And I agree, the arc was weird 3. The canon isn’t the most important thing, but there are some things that need to hold true for me. The show or otherwise. William Hartnell was the first (already off to a great start), he “borrowed” the TARDIS, he was a father, those basic ideas about the actual character 4. I like Danny Pink, but I don’t think he was used well 5. It doesn’t really matter, but it’s definitely annoying. “The big season number is daunting” angle doesn’t make sense. People know there’s more doctor who. Whatever streaming service or tv channel they watch it on will have more Doctor Who. That argument also feels a little condescending to non British people 6. I still love the Angels, but I think with every appearance they become less scary and fun. Not because they should be one and done, but because the way the Angels were shown and edited in Blink should have stayed for all their episodes 7. I think the Daleks are more of the Arch-nemesis. The Master is more of a… regular enemy with a fun character arc 8. I think a moderate budget is best for this show. It lets them be ambitious without having things be too polished, which is where it’s been for a few years now (too much CGI) 9. If it stays a one time thing, I think it’s fun. But if it ever shows up again, I’m officially upset by it 10. I love both, in different ways! I think I have more fun with Moffat, but feel more heart from RTD

[@justarandomguy2424]

I agree with all of the above. except the season number thing. I think tv changed in that everybody wants to watch from the start, that's what streaming is for after all but dr who was made as a tv show airing a random arc of episodes that you just jump into and enjoy without thinking about countinuity the season long arcs where just a little spice added to that.

[@judithstrachan9399]

So do I. Especially, I did like Danny quite a lot.

[@stephenschneekloth1535]

The problem wasn't Danny it was Clara. The show became "Clara and her immortal Genus Time Traveling manservant".

[@t.mustermann]

Amy and rory - just perfect

[@RayTheomo]

Didnt like the whole cheating on Rory thing though. And Rory just letting it go didnt make sense.

[@jeremiahyoung4617]

@@RayTheomo I swear i say this every time, I really didn't think that she loved or even liked him until maybe Amy's choice. Even the doctor thought so as well. Like everything he said about them and himself and at the end Amy asks him "is that really what you think about yourself?" Like didn't this man just downplay your entire relationship the whole episode?

[@laurencebastien-dionne218]

Considering that Steven Moffat IS the"creator" of the weeping Angels, he has all the right to do what he wants with it

[@crickcrackcricketycrack5501]

A creator can still ruin their own creation

[@Mercure250]

That's a weird defence. Any writer is the creator of what they write. That doesn't prevent us from criticizing when we think a story goes in a bad direction, does something dumb with a character, etc. That's... the whole point of engaging critically with the media we read or watch.

[@LCBK]

The way I look at the extended cannon is it’s cannon if you want, unless it is de-canonized by the show

[@MollyInanna]

The one detail people leave out of the wider "everyone bigenerated" angle - they bigenerated into separate timelines. So that angle basically introduced the same "variant multiverse" angle that the MCU did. It's not that bad.

[@karaloop9544]

Except it's running the MCU into the ground you mean?

[@l.salisbury1253]

1:58 - Check the underrated-but-INCREDIBLE 11th Doctor graphic novel "Assimilation2"- the Ponds are VERY essential to that story...!

[@tompraeger]

In regards to the canon question: Btw, Since the BBC doesn’t seem to have a official stanse on which Doctor Who story counts as canon, in my opinion all Doctor Who stories are canon, regardless of medium, that meet these two criteria: 1. A fictional story, not written as a parody, set in the Doctor Who universe (Whoniverse). 2. A story either produced or licensed by the BBC or officially licensed by the licensee of the characters in question (for those Whoniverse characters not exclusively or fully owned by the BBC). Any inconsistencies between stories can be chalked up to the nature of franchise as a time travel series and paradoxes always shifting details of the timeline. Is that unhelpfully broad? probably, but I feel with Doctor who any definition will end up either very broad or unreasonably tight.

[@DanBrizuela]

10. It all depends on the circumstances 9. Under normal circumstances? Maybe. But you have to take into account that they were now his family as well as knowing his fate 8. Across the spiderverse gave us a good lesson about canon 7. Yes 6. No 5. No 4. All of them 3. As long as there’s a good balance 2. Yes 1. Moffat for both modern and all

[@christhompson8003]

The Doctor's bloodthirstiness in the latest ones is along the lines of "no other choice". The Doctor doesn't kill the general because he is already powerless, however, he kills the Sycorax because even after the defeat, he still tries to attack him. The classic Dr can't be judged on this as he is pre Time war and isn't living with the trauma of those events.

[@syncdom]

Aside from the last 2 every other doctor actually gave the baddies a chance to step down and change their minds but in the end was given no choice.

[@ThelmaFrohlich]

I started watching the Doctor in 1978 with tom Baker.

[@veggiet2009]

An even more controversial take: should the ponds have stayed longer? I think there's an argument that could have been made that Amy's grief about being sterile and not raising her daughter as a normal mother which lead to the divorce could have made for another good series arcing story if it had been fleshed out. There's another even better argument that series 7b Clara didn't add enough value and having established companions hang around would have been better

[@so1opiniao]

If there's a thing that Chibnall saved, it was the Weeping Angels' reputation in Village of the Angels

[@Iggybart05]

i find it comical when someone says "so and so ruined X" when so and so was the creator of X. he made the weeping angels, they're his baby lol

[@briandaleske5139]

In the previous Thirteenth Season of (DOCTOR WHO) show, it had introduced the multiverse, the 13th-Doctor discovers there’s more than two dimensional realms. An so I theorize in a different realm, a variant of Amy Pond & her husband Rory Williams, they had two more kids, a few years later. After they were sent to a different time period, by the fault of a Weeping-Angel, it happened in an old abandoned field, that was by a very old cemetery. And sadly leaving behind their grownup daughter (Melody Pond) aka (River Song) in the present day. In addition I imagine, one of AMY & RORY’S descendants, meets The-Doctor in the far distant future, she sadly dies by a dangerous alien, inside an unimaginably large library. But despite that, I imagine she has a younger 3rd. brother, who I imagine is her half brother, and he’s the only one who genuinely cares about her. In addition I imagine he was genuinely sad, when he had discovered that she died, but he was happy later, after discovering a copy of her mind was saved on the digital library. Now I imagine within this same, different realm, that they exist in, is a variant of The-Doctor, and I imagine he has two serving family members, somewhere out in the universe. The only two family members, who survived, are his sister, and his male cousin. In addition I imagine each one, went off to different planets, in their own TARDIS, when the danger got worse, on their home world. Plus to add I imagine that, this variant of The-Doctor, he remembers his biological father, but he’s unable to remember his birth mother.

[@sagieaesir13]

I feel like for the last point, RTD is best at longwritten stories, the overarching arcs and character development and relationships. Moffat seems to be better at contained episodes, finding the beauty in the mundane (Vincent and the Doctor does this SO WELL!!!), and keeping the little details in mind. I think they're both good and we can't really compare them, but it's just what I've noticed!

[@neonswift]

The angel movement scene you showed was lit but was flickering on and off. An object can't be observed if you cant see it in the dark. Surely the idea is that you are not seeing it move, you're just seeing snapshots of it in different positions? Though its been a while since I've seen the scene. Every time the light flickers off for a second its not seen and hence moves and this could explain why its movement doesn't look smooth enough: its like stop motion.

[@Mercure250]

The only way to prove or disprove your idea is to look at every frame. I might do that one day.

[@jb888888888]

FR I thought the thumbnail was Amy's face photoshopped on to River's hairstyle (or vice-versa).

[@brianturner5995]

I'm definitely a Moffat man...but I do like the RTD era as well (and I must admit, I really enjoyed Love and Monsters, even with the icky ending :) )

[@hakami6299]

The 11th and Ponds were my favourite Doctor Who seasons, their interactions were so fun, energetic, my favourite dynamics. Each 5 of them (I'm incloding Rory's dad and River Song) added something to the story. So I can't agree they stayed too long. They should've stayed longer!! And if they were to stay longer they would have gotten a better story arch for season 7... Although I must say I kind of love their ending. I hate that we now can't see them again, but what they did for each other... That was beautiful. And we know they had a happy life.

[@neonswift]

Daleks are an opposing force not a nemesis. Nemesis is singular, otherwise there would be no need for the plural "nemeses". Its not in the spirit of the word to use nemesis to describe an obstacle made up of multiple entities. But you can have multiple nemeses which are multiple individuals who independently make up a challenge. But the Daleks (mostly) don't have enough defining features as individuals to warrant them being referred to as a nemesis. Nemesis is also not inherently a bad guy, its just someone/something (singular) that is hard to defeat. Which is why the Master, when she was an ally to the Doctor in that one season, was still his nemesis.

[@TheReal-Skymario]

I think for the show runner debate is that RTD is better at Companions Story arcs And Moffet is better at Story’s Monsters So if we get an series where the story’s and monsters ideas are Moffet but the Series arc and companions are written by RTD then that will be so good

[@Lukecash2]

Honestly, Moffat is better at story arcs and landing them than RTD. RTD is better at varied tone and emotional characters.

[@kevinborders4387]

A good man doesn't need rules. Today, we found out why the doctor has so many

[@Kayjee17]

People are complaining about 3 versions of David Tennant as the Doctor? There can never be enough of a good thing, especially since they're all off in different places! My favorite headcannon is having 14, 15, and Clara meeting up to battle some major bad guys because the 3 Tardis(es) are needed to save the universe. Then 14 and 15 go with Clara back to her death-point because she's ready now, but she wants him/them with her... and the two Doctors working together are able to bring out 12, if only in a joint mental projection, to give them a proper goodbye before she goes.

[@dragonofmordor]

1. No killing as a general rule is great, but it. is also good that he/she is willing to do what is necessary sometimes. 2. Nope. Amy and Rory and 11 are my favorite Doctor and companion pairing. 3. Personally I say there are different levels of canon. The tv show is main canon. Audio dramas and books are a second level, they count, but not quite to the same level as tv. It is very helpful that time changes in Who, so some things probably were canon and now aren't due to some change that happened. 4. Yes. I liked him a lot. I wish they'd done more with him, but I liked him. 5. I don't know, TBH. Doesn't matter much to me, I just watch what I like. 6. Nope. I found them scarier once they could kill. I don't find being sent to the past that scary. Well, okay, the seeing them moving was bad. But everything else was good. 7. For me it is the Master because he's the dark mirror of the Doctor. 8. No. 9. I wasn't a personal fan. I just feel like there is too much 10/14. Tennant got the Metacrisis Doctor and now 14 gets to remain. He's not my favorite Doctor personally (I think he's a bit overrated), so it annoys me. 10. Moffatt's era, hands down. 11 and 12 are my favorite Doctors, and Moffatt's era is my favorite.

[@gestaltdude]

I have to confess that I've never strayed from a direct continuation approach to series numbering. Eccleston's season is in my list under season 27, not series 1, and Ncuti's is season 41. Nothing will change my approach to this, as it seems the easiest way to avoid confusion.

[@DrWhoFanJ]

Ncuti won’t be getting Season 41 until next year.

[@hx823]

This has been my thinking as well as I update my Doctor Who Ep Guide (for my edification, of course).

[@gestaltdude]

@@hx823 Of course. No point in forcing our own views on others. :D

[@gaminglikeaproallthetime4563]

Who wrote the 13th Doctor eras. Whoever it was lost the final deabte for me 😂

[@ethanisadreamer]

love debating over doctor who

[@bradlybrinkley6774]

For seeing the weeping angels move I think it could be argued that we as viewers don't count. The scenes that the characters are viewing the weeping angels we don't see move. The alien statues with two heads transformed into weeping angels with just one head but maybe because It's Earth and we are human we have different human made statues it's different. They utilize their perception filter in a different way to trick us. The 4 wall break of the audience seeing them move fits with the theory that Doctor Who is just a show.

[@bradlybrinkley6774]

Also In Blink they are described as creatures of the abstract,they live off potential energy. When they send you back in time they send you to a specific time and place of their choice which is why when Rory is sent back in time the first time River asks why would they send him here and not just back in time we watch as Rory watches himself die the angel go after Amy and Rory to send Rory back in time without amy. Displacing someone in time creates time energy that the angels feed on. After Amy and Rory change the future and create the paradox The Doctor says he can never take the TARDIS back there because the timelines are two scrambled Rory stops to look at his grave and the angel sends him back in time Amy asks the The Doctor if the angel will send her back to him? The Doctor says He doesn't know that nobody knows. I personally think that the angel has some understanding of human nature because as The Doctor says they are the only creature to kill you nicely. This surviving angel is very weak but knows that Amy will live her most potential life with Rory. It would get some power after sending Rory back in time and some more power after sending Amy. In Amy's Choice After Rory died in the Leadworth dream Amy said this is the dream because if this is real life I don't want it Dying in the dream was her only way to see him again. If Amy had stayed with The Doctor after Rory's death she probably wouldn't have lived that long likely getting into increasingly dangerous situations to cope with the emotional trauma of losing the only person besides Mels who has been with her through all the years after her Raggedy Doctor left her. Her parents were brought back but they travel with the Doctor so they don't know what happened to Rory all they would know is their daughter returned without her husband and Rory's Dad wouldn't be able to explain to them what happened. Here's a funny thought Jack Harkness started working for Torchwood in 1899 and Amy and Rory are sent back in time to 1939 Having met UNIT in The power of 3 and after traveling with The Doctor Amy would have a natural desire to protect Earth from alien threats. Torchwood Season 5 Jack Harkness and Amy and Rory defending the Earth. Jack Harkness Early Torchwood years.

[@bradlybrinkley6774]

The Doctor can't go back to New York specifically with the TARDIS or a vortex manipulators because it's part of his own timeline but River can still go back which is why she tells Amy to write an afterword for The Doctor. The Doctor's TARDIS can't go back to New York but that doesn't mean another TARDIS couldn't go to New York Maybe when Clara and ME use their TARDIS and Clara says they don't have to go back straight away they have some wiggle room maybe they go back to New York and all 4 of get into some crazy stuff. ME remarks that despite their obvious affection for The Doctor they are safer without him Amy and Rory go on to lead full lifes surviving past 80 which ME knows ever since she's kept tabs on everyone The Doctor abandoned she likely watched Amy and Rory during their times with The Doctor on Earth and saw their graves and understood the angels sent them back in time and regretted the fact that she couldn't help them. She said she would be the patron saint of The Doctor's leftovers she knew they were sent back in time to a specific date and possibly a specific place New York but she couldn't travel there until she met Clara and Clara's stolen TARDIS.because she is the only one who was at the very edge of the universe watching it die She tells The Doctor all the other immortals are gone in one their earlier conversation The Doctor tells Ashildr He traveled with another immortal named Jack Harkness and he might run into her eventually. When ME tells The Doctor all the other immortals are gone she's just letting him know that Jack is dead. The Doctor already knows this after seeing Jack die in New New York. A place that could have significant meaning if Amy and Rory had met Jack. Then when The Face of Boe gives his energy to save New New York it's Jack giving back to the city that matters to him.

[@StubbyandShifu]

Who cares about details when we can have this fabulous show with all the fabulous Doctors.

[@malahammer]

Except the most recent three :)

[@SnowLily06]

​@@malahammeryou're really gonna say David and Ncuti are bad doctors? Wow

[@dadcomeback1470]

​@SnowLily06 tf you mean wow ncuti was objectively a terrible doctor he didn't do anything the most he did was stand around crying and David's 14th was shit as well as by design because everything is made to destroy what we love

[@Polar-Guard]

After seeing RTD back as show runner and thinking back on both the Moffat and RTD eras of the show I have to say I think Moffat was the better show runner.

[@robo3007]

"Doctor Who entered it's first slump in series 7 and you could argue never truly recovered" you are speaking as if series 10 doesn't exist

[@SnowLily06]

That's what I thought too!

[@germainelensing4158]

I respect different opinions about Doctor Who, but there are good reasons why the Tenth Doctor (David Tennant) is so popular. He was the reason& Christopher Ecclestone that I continued to watch and love the series. Russell T Davies brought a special depth to the series, especially in the relationships with the companions and their families. Under Steven Moffat, some things changed, including the budget, which improved production. However, a series shouldn’t be rated highly just because of better production values. Peter Capaldi as the Twelfth Doctor, who came after Matt Smith, was great and brought a dark but familiar side to the Doctor. His chemistry with the companions & with River were also excellent. Matt Smith’s era was good, but it often lacked the emotional depth that Davies brought. Moffat’s focus was initially more on the Doctor’s adventures and less on the companions’ relationships. The Thirteenth Doctor had some weaknesses, and the current Fourteenth Doctor shows potential, even though some episodes lean too much towards “woke” themes. Still, both deserve their place in the ranking, and especially the Fourteenth Doctor could still surprise positively with episodes like “Seventy Two Yard” and “Dot und Babbel.” In summary, creativity and good acting play a crucial role alongside a bigger budget. The best seasons of Doctor Who are characterized by deep character development and emotional bonds, not just impressive special effects.

[@NullStaticVoid]

Moffat is by far my favorite. There is something more cerebral about his writing that reminds me of classic Who. Yeah he can get convoluted. But I think he is emulating stuff like the Key of Time story arc. RTD is a lot more flashy. He loves bold colors, driving music and bombastic story lines. Sure it doesn't make sense to have the Doctor do this, but it looks really cool! His story writing frequently builds you up for a finale that never arrives. Except of course Stolen Earth/Journey's End. That was a fantastic finale. Chock full of fan service nonsense. But a very fun ride nonetheless. Personally I'd like to see someone other than RTD as showrunner, with Moffat, RTD and Chibnall contributing scripts. As much as I agree with the hate for Chibnall as showrunner, he wrote a lot of good episodes before he got the big chair. How else do you think he got the big chair?

[@tenzhitihsien888]

Bigeneration is great if one of them becomes the Valeyard.

[@peterratter6603]

Of this list, all are debatable matters of opinion, other than yes, Moffat did overuse/ruin the Weeping Angels. The cherubs were chilling; the Statue of Liberty was silly but acceptable for a one-off joke/jump-scare, but we should never have seen them move on screen.

[@ShadowJoeSnow]

Russel as Showrunner and Moffat as writer

[@deadspeedgames]

Well meta crisis doctor was stated to be human 100 percent and he will die with rose and the fact he's stuck on alternate earth without a tardis

[@rtaylor7384]

For me having companions around for a long time is a good thing. I got really annoyed with RTD when he only kept Martha and Donna for one series only and brought them back as guests stars and also I think Martha deserves better. She save the world but didn’t get enough credit. She was an underrated companion in my opinion. She was amazing.

[@SerathDarklands]

10. Depends on the Doctor. Different Regenerations have different personalities, and it makes sense for certain Doctors to be more bloodthirsty or unforgiving than others. 9. No. I think Amy and Rory had about as much time as companions as they should have. I think it would have been better to have them leave for other reasons so we could see them again someday, but I don't think they were there TOO long. 8. Personally, I think of Doctor Who's canon on different levels, sort of like Star Wars. The show and spin-offs are the primary canon, comics and radio dramas are secondary canon, and things like charity shows are explicitly not canon until and unless they are referenced in primary canon. 7. Eh? I never really had strong feelings about Danny until after his death. His actions post-death are what make me enjoy him, he is a good man and a selfless man, but we don't really see TOO much of that while he's alive. 6. No. Beyond helping keep track of season and episode orders, the actual numbering itself doesn't matter. 5. I don't think 'ruin' is the right word. The Weeping Angels are predicated on our lack of understanding, the fear of the unknown. Each subsequent appearance takes a bit of that away. This is countered a bit by giving them new and curious abilities, like 'the image of an Angel is an Angel'. I think the Angels are diminished, not ruined. 4. The Master, without question. I could potentially see an argument for Davros, but the Doctor even says that the Master is his equal. The Master is Moriarty to the Doctor's Holmes. It's less about sheer threat and more about their relationship, they're foils for each other. 3. No. That's nostalgia talking. As long as the show doesn't lose sight of where it came from, it'll almost certainly still have that humble charm. 2. It's not a GREAT idea, but it's not awful. We've seen all kinds of crazy pseudo-science shenanigans on Doctor Who over the years, and I don't think Bi-Generation is bad, I just wish that it had been at least mentioned before as a Time Lord myth, rather than just being pulled out of the writers' butts at the last minute, or that it had been given a different explanation. If we're doubling down on the Timeless Child thing, maybe make it part of the natural life cycle of the Timeless Child, and other Time Lords' regeneration is imperfect so Bi-Generation is impossible for anyone else. 1. Honestly, they're both excellent, and their different styles scratch different itches for me. BONUS: The best Doctor is Peter Capaldi. The man can say more in a glance than most other actors can in an entire monologue, and when he does monologue, it's enrapturing. Heaven Sent is still one of the greatest Doctor Who episodes ever, and there are very few actors that could have pulled it off. Christopher Lee, Patrick Stewart, maybe Derek Jacobi... David Tennant is decently close, though, and I think with another decade or two of acting experience, he'll match or maybe even surpass Capaldi, but looking at their performances as they stand now, Capaldi is the best.

[@racerunner1234]

0:26 same vortex I use when editing the credits for @TheWhoTubeShow lol, also will you be doing a video about who you think Mrs Flood is?

[@AnomalySource]

My only issue with Clara will always be the impossible girl being resolved too quickly. 11 and Clara should have gotten a full series (Matt has since said he regrets not staying for a full series with Jenna) before 11 regenerated into 12.

[@B__C__]

I think you can like both both showrunners for their shows. I love both _The Eleventh Hour_ and _Gridlock._

[@glennturner3224]

10 - No 9 - No 8 - Pure BBC TV, or everything 7 - He's ok 6 - Can be helpful for new people, not bothered myself 5 - No 4 - The Master 3 - No 2 - Maybe (leaning towards no, but can see potential for good) 1 - Stephen Moffatt

[@dragonzilla6482]

I was in a debate on who is the best written with a Brony once at college and it turned nasty.

[@DyrianLightbringer]

Moffat definitely ruined the angels, and he unknowingly did it in Blink. When Sally Sparrow gives the Doctor her notes, she includes a photo of an angel. So, there is no possible way that the Doctor would not have already known that an image of an angel becomes an angel by the time of the Byzanthium.

[@kraevgames]

Danny was a pretty good character, but Clara was almost unbearable with him around. I absolutely loved Clara until they introduced Danny.

[@brookeworrall9110]

Moffat writing for RTD no question

[@RunfromDangerMan]

I prefer the early days of it being charming in how bad the effects were, but the Moffat era was good for a world scope I’d say. The special effects caught up for those that don’t want to see monsters made out of cardboard and couch cushions, but there were still those moments where we could enjoy it. An over reliance on cgi like we had recently just felt too try hard for the origins and reputation of the show. If this were any other show then an over reliance on cgi might be good. But this is Doctor Who. Overly relying on cgi feels like they’re trying to make up for something. To me anyway.

[@goddessstarla]

I think bi-regeneration can help explain the Valeyard in the future, and possibly the return of him too.

[@sheersternfeld1914]

Do people have problems with the Ponds? I knew they dislike Clara (Clara is amazing, and I don't get that), but why the Ponds? By the way, there is no canon, only chaos.

[@artypyrec4186]

Most likely the kiss on the wedding day. Other than that I REALLY enjoyed their story.

[@badfairy9554]

could not stand Graham.

[@pomponi0]

I think the idea is they think Amy doesn't deserve Rory, and it can feel like that sometimes on your first watch. I like them a lot tbh.

[@GoranNewsum]

On the Moffat vs RTD debate, my take is this: Moffat is the better episode writer, but Russell is the better showrunner.

[@cyberinsecuregaming2890]

I think Moffat is a better writer and RTD is a better showrunner.

[@codyfeisel6970]

RTD is better at planning out an entire series. Moffat is better at writing individual stories. The best results came when Moffat was writing Tennant scripts and RTD was figuring out how it all fit together.

[@MetroStationVampire]

I love New Earth 🥲 lol Cassandra’s death makes me cry every time 😂

[@geoffroi-le-Hook]

8. I'm not sure I'd consider the 13th Doctor era as canon 7. Are we sure Rupert isn't Danny's black sheep brother? I'm not 5. Chibnall ruined the angels by making the Doctor an Angel

[@loneeldritchknight7362]

I guess the big question we have to answer is does cannon even matter in a show that's always changing and in flux?

[@beardedmotu2007]

“Saving people, hunting things… The family business.

[@capybara85]

Can we just take a minute to appreciate Jenna Coleman's nose tho? High quality nose right there

[@ElectricBlitzNinja]

Is the Chris Chibnall era canon?

[@badwolf69420]

Bigeneration is not the same as regeneration. It honestly looks more like producing an offspring!

[@NonMeusNomen]

It makes more sense to call Jodie Whittaker's Series 1, since Doctor Who ended with Capaldi's departure.

[@deliamcleod1165]

Share writing the episodes, but give Moffat a few extra, but let RTD set and control the Arc of the season and have a few guest writers per season. As to companions RTD's are better, I like the Ponds but Donna?? does it get any better?

[@InsaneProf]

Donna was one of the worst companions, almost as bad as all of Jodie's Companions. She was just yet another iteration of the character than Catherine Tate played the most (Mouthy woman of indeterminate age), I found her to be as grating as Adric.

[@judithstrachan9399]

Whereas I loved her. Devotedly. (It may have helped that my maiden name was Noble…) (And that I haven’t seen her show, except the odd snippet.)

[@ShelledKyle]

U did Chibnall so dirty lol

[@Mazz3D]

Something we can all agree on, chibnal bad

[@gerblansky13]

no

[@friendlyotaku9525]

We? Who's We? I don't agree with that.

[@RayTheomo]

The worst.

[@Mazz3D]

@@Legendary3Dgamer jodie was great, I wish anyone else was show runner

[@margarethall1625]

Who's we? Because I seriously disagree with this statement.

[@natty4bumpo]

Now I've gotta watch 'Looney Toons: Back in Action' (though I've already seen the clip) 😂

[@itssupernerd866]

Happy Independence Day from Britain

[@badfairy9554]

yes, just voted anti right.

[@robsquared2]

America just got a King again, so I wouldn't be that excited.

[@friendlyotaku9525]

@@robsquared2 Hopefully Trump loses in November, I think he will.

[@deadspeedgames]

But they did say the new doctor who was on who wasn't afraid to use deadly methods since he was the darker side of the doctor giving his 14th incarnation peace

[@josephcooter5763]

I thought that the Angels were over used. They were great as a one off and are perfect example of why it is not always a good idea to bring a villian back.

[@c.hawker7605]

No, Love and Monsters will never be any kind of masterpiece

[@NevermoreNeverAgain]

Bi-Generation gives them an easy out - the new Doctor doesn't track well with the viewers? Bring back the fan-favourite duo Donna and Doctor. It's a safety net, nothing more. As for who's better as a showrunner, it's Russel T Davies, hands down, with Moffat writing the episodes themselves. I call that approach: lowfat Moffat. We get proper character arcs from Davies and great moments from Moffat.

[@alexberrios3528]

In my opinion, RTD is better at the overall series arc, while Moffat makes the best standalone episodes. Regardless of who you think is best, we clould all agree, Chibnall is definitely number 3

[@RunfromDangerMan]

One thing that makes Doctor Who magnificent is that canon doesn’t matter.

[@kingdonut6675]

Doctor who is a show about change so I don’t mind updated graphics. I mean they have changed the protagonist more than a dozen times and had like twice as many more supporting characters.

[@bexrex97]

Danny deserved so much better from Clara and I love that he doesn’t love The Doctor, he sees his flaws, and his tragic ending worked for me

[@danielgertler5976]

While i don't think Amy and Rory stayed too long, but its definitely not the same with Clara. With Amy and Rory those few extra episodes are more on the weak end of their run while the last season fo Clara is definitely the better content than her first season

[@elliesteele2027]

I'm bored so here's my personal opinion on all of these: 10. (Should the Doctor kill?) Only sparingly and when necessary though it quite often is. 9. (Did Amy & Rory stay too long?) Doctor Who is about constantly changing and evolving. If it stays the same for too long without good reason, it stagnates. The Ponds' story ended in Series 6 and so that's when they should have left. 8. (Where do you draw the line on canon?) Everything's canon until the show contradicts it. There are also obvious exceptions with joke/satirical stories like Curse of Fatal Death. 7. (Is Danny Pink a good character?) I feel like his character should've been explored more given his apparent importance but I think he served his purpose in the plot well enough. 6. (Does the series numbering actually matter?) Not really but I see how it could get confusing. Maybe we could number episodes by the number of their overall "era" of the show, then the series, then the episode. For example The Doctor Falls would be 2/10/12. 5. (Did Moffat ruin the Weeping Angels?) While a lot of the new "mechanics" he introduced to them in Series 5 were interesting, I feel like it was far too much too fast and made them feel a little oversaturated compared to their originally much simpler premise in Blink. 4. (Who is the Doctor's arch nemesis?) The Master. 3. (Does the show lose its charm with a bigger budget?) While most of the visual jank is gone, the goofy concepts are still very much around. Even just in this new series we've had: baby-eating goblins, evil musical drag queen, evil robot ambulance and evil cosplaying bird people. 2. (Is bigeneration a good idea?) Absolutely not. The entire point of the show is that despite being portrayed by more than a dozen brilliant actors across 60+ years, the Doctor still the same character they always were. Bigeneration is a far greater character assassination than the Timeless Child could ever be. 1. (Davies or Moffat?) Moffat. Despite his sometimes over-convoluted plots and his tendency to write one handed whenever a woman appears, he has by far written the greatest stories Doctor Who has ever seen. There. Have fun reading and going "Ooh I agree with that!" as well as "I hate this person and everything they stand for how dare they" throughout.

[@SimonPayne-je3hi]

I think the Doctor, Rory and Amy and River storylines were superior and an excellent episode 1 of series 7 would have been The Angels Take Manhatten. The Doctor could then have had some more episodes in Victorian England with some stand alone episodes and a more complex as well as intiguing relationship start to build with Clara. I prefer Moffat's episodes and story lines and arcs taken. The Doctor should kill only when there is no alternative. The Time War, Emotional times and Mass invasion. As far as possible The Doctor should have a cool head and use his brains.

[@BruhsCookieJar]

The thing that bothers me most about the current doctor is that he does t give a warning and he doesn’t confront and talk to the villain. He makes choices for life (or death) for them on his own without giving them the option of leaving or being better on their own. I think it’s a step back, not forward in character development. I have a lot to say on this, not about the actor, it’s the writing. The master is a fr-enemy. I don’t think the two would know what to do without each other. The angels are pretty awesome, those babies creepy. Love moffatt episodes and arcs , though I enjoy many of rtd so 🤷. Money meh!

[@darrenrichardson6146]

AH, number 6, the season numbering...... Let's just refer to each iteration as Volumes, so classic Who is Volume 1, the 2005 revival Volume 2 and the current Disney Era Volume 3, that way all three get their "Season 1".

[@CliffCutterActual]

10. No, even killing Sutehk felt off. Of course that said I can't pretend I didn't fully enjoy the Goblin King's death. 9. Yeah, I mean I like them but the whole divorce arc rubbed me the wrong way, though The Angels take Manhattan does come close to making up for it 8. I like when any IP canonizes obscure details from their extended universe, but beyond that I have no strong opinion (Except Star Trek, Andorians have 4 sexes and no one will ever convince me otherwise) 7. Yes, I liked him a lot. I didn't like how they ended his arc, but even then I liked the character himself. 6. I honestly get some of the reasoning for calling it Season 1, but it makes it so hard to google. So I'm ok with it, but I wouldn't say I liked it. 5. I liked the episodes he put the angels, but I didn't really like all the changes. Seeing the angels move was the biggest mistake imo since some scenes in Blink heavily implied that on some meta level we the audience were part of the world. I have a soft spot for the idea of implying that the cameras and by extension the audience are passively interacting with the story by observing it, and I think that really stems from Blink itself. 4. It's the Master, I can get the argument that it's the Daleks and Davros, they do have seniority after all, but their antagonism somehow feels less personal to the Doctor even when they explicitly makes it personal. 3. This is case by case, I have no universal opinion here 2. Yes, but only the once. If they pull it out again it again it had better be very good, like Heaven Sent level good, or it will instantly become a really bad idea. However, I will make an exception for the extended universe, Big Finish can do whatever they want with bi-generation, heck I'd let them get away with tri-generation. 1. Moffat is a more consistently great writer, but RTD is my preferred showrunner. This honestly has less to do with Doctor Who itself and more to do with my feelings about Queer as Folk and Sherlock as I enjoyed the former much more than the later. Also RTD is a confirmed little Gay Geek and I identify a lot with that. (Yes I know he's quite tall, so am I, but I still consider us both Little Gay Geeks)

[@OneWingedRose]

Fun topic! Time for me to shout my opinions into the void: 10. - Self-defence or wrath with a big helping of visible regret is how I think it should be. 9. - Amy and Rory were my favourites, but yeah that divorce plot was def a bridge too far. 8. - I don't really have a stance on canon, let ppl enjoy what they want. 7. - I think Danny Pink was good. I don't think the Cybermen afterlife plot was very good. 6. - I think the season 1 was earned here personally, feels like a new era. 5. - Considering their second appearence is what made them plague my dreams and imagination when out walking at night for over a DECADE, I think the rules brought in in season 5 were pretty good. Though the statue of liberty episode definitely made them less scary overall. 4. - I think The Master beats the Daleks on this topic, but I also think the redemption of the Master should've been where they stopped being a villain. I still don't know the supposed reasons for their complete 180 in Jodie's run, and the less said about the giant middle finger to the excellent 50th anniversary special the better! 3. - Normally pro practical effects, when they're cheap they at least have charm, but now we've got the super budget I don't think I mind much either way. 2. - As a one-off, I think the successful bi-generation worked, and as a writing tool, I think it could have some interesting things done with it in the future, so I don't hate it. 1. - Ah, the juicy one! For me I think it's this: - RTD Left at his peak. - Moffat started at his peak but kept going past it. So it's hard to pick one over the other, I think my fav season hands down is 5, and that's a Moffat one, but season 7 was definitely the lowest low point for me too. And I didn't even much like Capaldi's run until season 10 (which I do think on its own is just a great season of Dr Who, probs my second favourite).

[@DrWhoFanJ]

None of the times you have used the word "season" are correct.

[@OneWingedRose]

@@DrWhoFanJ I'm not sure I'm following. If you mean how in British English 'season' is referred to as 'series', well I opt for the American English version there as the double meaning for series as "the entire show" and "the individual series" is a bit too clumsy in my opinion, it's one of the few times I prefer the American English! If you mean my numbers rather than my English, then I dunno what to say. Everywhere I've ever seen or heard the show talked about has referred to 2005 as Nu-Who season 1, which makes Matt Smith's debut season 5, and Capaldi's last season number 10. Even the veteran watchers I've engaged with from Old-Who have spoken about it this way, it's why I use the term Nu-Who in the first place lol!

[@DrWhoFanJ]

@@OneWingedRose It’s not a British/Am*rican difference in the slightest. Season 5 starred Patrick Troughton, not Matt Smith. Season 1 starred William Hartnell, not Christopher Eccleston. Season 10 starred Jon Pertwee, not Peter Capaldi.

[@OneWingedRose]

@@DrWhoFanJ Your comment was vague on where you were coming from, you could feasibly be saying that about either the English used or the Numbers used. So I explained both. Thanks for elaborating! Seems you were coming from the Number side. So all I'll say is, yeah, I don't disagree, that's how the numbers work, season 1 of Nu-Who is also known as season 27. I don't have any skin in this race, I was just using the numbers I'd become accustomed to using from all the messageboards and forums I'd engaged with over the decades.

[@judithstrachan9399]

I think the “season” / “series” debate is just pointlessly looking for arguments, a bit like people who take offence too easily. BUT that could be just because I find it so confusing I can’t be bothered & just say which doctor or use some other identifier.

[@S_yIvie]

Russel is def the better showrunner for me, however Moffat makes the best standalone episodes. Im an ideal world Russel wrote the overarching story and Moffat the episodes themself

[@moreorlesto]

What I want to see more than anything - in this or any other show or movie for that matter - is a GOOD SCRIPT!! I feel like these controversies wouldn't exist (minus the numbering - bothered me at first, but now, I could care less) if well-written stories were there all the time. I *know* that's an impossibility since all shows have some stinkers at some point (due to a budget not reaching the level of the story to make it convincing or a time-crunch leading to a "good enough" storyline), but there have been some awful slumps during Moffat and Chibnal eras - CHIBNALL ESPECIALLY!! One season the Doc threatens to dump Graham for wanting to kill, and then another season she proceeds to wipe-out the Sontarans without flinching. As per usual - great casting, mediocre writing.

[@christianschmitt2409]

RTD 1: Good arcs, mediucre scripts Moffat: Good scripts, mediocre arcs RTD 2: mediocre scripts, bad arcs. I want moffat back as showrunner, or a new chibnall era even as long as someone keeps him in check

[@ghost-bison]

Personally there is no debate: RTD is way better than Moffat. I don't get people who can't agree with that. I don't like most of his episodes during the RTD era (except for the two parters with the Doctor Dances which was a banger), and I think saying you like Moffat better is equivalent to saying you'd rather have overly pretty people and decent special effects than quality writing

[@markwolfking258]

Gatwa is excellent and I love him, but also, if there were twenty Tenant Doctors running around the whoniverse... well, that's alright then!

[@stephenschneekloth1535]

I guess The Timeless Children isn't on here because the fans agree that it was a horrible idea so no controversy between the fans there.

[@nny2dope]

As you go? Ok... 10 yes, 9 big yes, 8 i consider it all canon, 7 nah, 6 this is Season 40 to me and my file system, 5 the angels lost their story power, 4 master is the moriarty of dw, 3 no, 2 was awesome, but was wasted unless 14 shows up in a unit spinoff or something, (Personally, i want a Noble household sitcom spin off), 1 RTD hands down.

[@DWN9]

The Bi-Generation was the perfect way to clearly separate the old series from the new. You now have the Fourteenth representing the original BBC era, who is "taking a break until he's needed again", and you have the Fifteenth representing the new Disney era, who is supposed to introduce the Doctor to a new non-Whovian viewership and hopefully create a new saga of their own. Unfortunately knowing how American streaming services work it probably won't last more than a few seasons, cause as soon as the ratings drop the Disney run either gets canceled or they call David Tennant back again to save the day. You'll either get another Bi-Generation to create a new spinoff Doctor, or David finally gets fed up and the Fourteenth regenerates into the Fifteenth (version 2).

[@quincyglg]

Love and monster, the creature was created as part of a drawing.

[@Tasorius]

I hate it, and I always skip that episode...