10 Major Composers' Most Uninteresting Works

[@jeffkelly5972]

Whats funny is even the worst classical music is better than the music I hear coming from peoples cars.

[@stevemcclue5759]

I'm looking forward to the series "10 things Dave *won't* talk about." I'm amazed that you find the time to do these vlogs and listen to any music at all! 😉

[@historicalpiano]

He promised likely not to talk about the Mozart Requiem. 1/10 so far... :)

[@williamwhittle216]

I can never quite get into the Brahms String Quartets, but even at 85 I'll keep trying.

[@onecello9577]

Really? The second theme from the A minor first mvt is so touching... and the third in Bb Major has two extraordinary central movements, plus the trio in the ländler has the only dedicated viola solo in the whole repertoire, and it sounds really beautiful. I urge you to keep trying William!

[@dennischiapello3879]

Why keep trying? You'll always find you could have spent the time listening to the quintets and sextets.

[@patrickhackett7881]

The "judgement of history," which I agree with, is not that the string quartets are terrible but that Brahms was trying too hard and that they're not as good as most/all of his other chamber works.

[@christopherjohnson2422]

For me, the big Brahmsian “stumbling blocks” are his piano sonatas. I’ve always found them to be rather tedious.

[@richardadams9122]

They are fun to play, but have always beena chore to listen to. Nowehere close to his Quintets, and chamber works including piano.

[@dmcvegan1963]

Your commentary is always pithy AND entertaining! I love your commitment to this channel and I thank you for the many hours of enjoyment you have provided me. I also wish to thank you for introducing me to the early piano trios of Mendelssohn, which helped me to reassess his contribution to music. Keep it coming!

[@christopherjohnson2422]

Ah, “Rienzi.” My high-school band played the overture as a contest piece in the early 1970s. I still have the custom-made souvenir recording of our performance at the state contest. We were pretty bad.

[@whistlerfred6579]

When I first saw the title of this video, I immediately thought "Wellington's Victory." But on reflection I realized that, although it may the the trashiest thing Beethoven wrote, it is certainly interesting in its own way. I was also thinking of Wagner's dreadful "Love Feast of the Apostles" discussed here in an earlier video, but this is hardly a threat to re-enter the repertoire despite the big name of the composer. Love these lists!

[@eugenebraig413]

Damn! I should have read this before I commented. Yeah, Wellington's Victory is a wacky conglomeration of effect with precious little music.

[@bbailey7818]

Oh, Liebesmahl. Truly, a half hour of uninterestingness. I defend Wellington. Not bad for music written for a machine Beethoven practically invented musique concrete with painstakingly detailed indications for gunfire and cannon shots from each side yet. Plus the charming, light little set of variations on "God Save the King."

[@daviddavenport9350]

Have done Wellingtons Victory in the orchestral version and a version for organ (playing the panharmonium parts) and percussion....they were both so much FUN to play....and the crazy fugue on God Save the King that closes it is really really cool!

[@silviofernandez585]

Chacon a son gout MOZART's Coronation Mass?? Are you kidding? No way. Unacceptable. I can think of other uninteresting works by Mozart that I can do without. Specially the tons of Divertimenti usually played on major Radio stations at infinitum.

[@Wherrimy]

Tchaikovsky 3rd is easily my favorite symphony of his, except for 6th...

[@owenbloomfield1177]

When I was an undergrad I heard a performance of the Triple Concerto. Going in I was still naive enough to think everything by Beethoven would be great. I left scratching my head wondering why I was unimpressed. I knew it wasn't the performers. My prof helped me realize not to put these people on pedestals. Thanks Dave for confirming my impressions.

[@richfarmer3478]

With all those wonderful tunes Tchaikovsky's 3rd sounds more to me like a suite from a ballet that never was ..and as I read these comments I guess George Balinchine thought so too.

[@wtvhdentertainmentpro6064]

Hello. I’d like to comment about Mozart’s Coronation Mass. Me personally, I have been intrigued and fascinated with musical expressiveness and vivid beauty of every movement of Coronation Mass. So, it is quite an interesting thing to see some people not liking it. Because if I had to name one of the most beautiful and spiritually ascending mass of classical music, it would be Mozart’s Coronation Mass. It really left me amazed for years. Haydn also had some great masses as well…

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Interesting!

[@marcus8258]

Handel is my favourite composer, but I have to concede that 'Joseph' is as dull as dish water!

[@gavingriffiths2633]

Surely - surely...'Christ on the Mount of Olives' is Beethoven's most dreary work, making the Triple Concerto seem a waltz in the park...

[@daviddavenport9350]

@@paxpaxart4740 I agree, have only played the Allelujah of the Beethoven in church, and just loved it....great timpani part!!!!!!

[@EntelSidious_gamzeylmz]

Oh gosh I studied the triple concerto for a concert and it was the most painful experience of boredom I ever had

[@bloodgrss]

The great English critic Ernst Newman opined that Rienzi was a case of musical 'measles' Wagner needed to pass through to achieve, as you imply, his latter genius.

[@caleblaw3497]

I remembered in one of Mr. Hurwitz's earlier videos, he said Fatum is Tchaikovsky's worst work. The Polish symphony is better than Fatum but I guess bad doesn't mean uninteresting. Fatum is so bad that it actually becomes interesting.

[@AlexMadorsky]

I enjoy Tchaikovsky’s “Polish” more than most other folks do but I’m certainly not going to argue it’s one of the composer’s most fascinating works. Otherwise, no quibbles with your list from my corner.

[@elizabethj8510]

Made a good Balanchine ballet, "Diamonds" section of The Jewels.

[@schokoladenritter7969]

I loved the last two movements - they were exciting, especially in Balanchine's ballet - but I agree it isn't one of T's more "special" or characteristic pieces.

[@Masilya111]

I find the first and last movement quite incredible because of very catchy melodies. This symphony also has one of the best finales I've heard. Obviously, this is very subjective. The second symphony I also find of great quality although the last movement is extremely repetitive. I think there are works from Tchaikovsky that are way more uninteresting than any of his symphonies, like Fatum.

[@steveeliscu1254]

Tchaik 3 one of my favorite symphonies.

[@joebloggs396]

Most who like melody will surely love it. He did much more boring works, some may have clever orchestration but that isn't enough for everyone.

[@TheAndrewJBaker]

Chacon a son gout - but Le Rondine, to me, is absolute joy and hugely underrated. It’s light but exquisitely written. Similarly Tchaikovsky’s third is a light and possibly trivial work but Tchaikovsky can be pure delight when he isn’t trying to be profound. The same is true of the Beethoven. The others I’m not arguing about. But it’s good to raise interest in neglected works. It reminds me of Lord Berners’ novel Count Omega in which the composer hero programmes his symphony after the most boring works by major composers - Beethoven’s Consecration of the House and Brahms’ second serenade. A bit unfair to both but it’s a very amusing and bizarre novel. No one’s sure whether the hero is a parody of Walton or Rubbra.

[@wilsonfirth6269]

Thank You. I fully agree with you about La Rondine. Covent Garden revive their Art Deco production every few years and it always sells out. After all, Magda was pretty much Angela Gheorghiu's signature role.

[@joncheskin]

When Tchaikovsky 3 came up I had a moment of deja vu wondering if I had played the piece at one point. I checked out the KZbin with the score and lo and behold, I realized that I had played it about 10 years ago. I guess it made a big impression on me.

[@commonwombat9171]

Whilst I'm not at this point going to put forward my nominations; I am in 100% agreement with Dave's base contention; namely that every composer had their off days/pieces that probably didn't pass "quality control". The reality is that many composers, especially during the baroque/classic period, worked in positions of having to "churn out works to order" and no one, no matter how gifted, is ever going to be even in quality of output particularly under these constraints. Something so many purists/"guardians of the sacred flame" blithely ignore in their contentions "but this is Bach !!/this is Mozart !! this is X/Y/Z and therefore works of matchless, infallible genius !"

[@davidwalton1606]

Perhaps a listing of the ten greatest (okay, most ballyhooed) compositions that were disowned/loathed by their composers. Peer Gynt, Reverie (Debussy), HMS Pinafore come to mind

[@dionbaillargeon4899]

I'd rather choose "Triumphlied" as the worst thing Brahms ever wrote. Rinaldo may be boring, but the "Triumphlied" is boring and, on top of that, boastingly chauvinistic to the point of embarassment. And it's almost half an hour long, so there's another rather large-scale work that gets largely ignored, and for a good reason. And I adore Brahms. He's the reason I got into classical music.

[@dennischiapello3879]

I'd never heard of it before. But I can't think of a composer less likely capture feelings of triumph than Brahms.

[@bbailey7818]

@@dennischiapello3879 Not only triumph but Prussian Bismarckian triumph. Really dreadful and embarrassing.

[@Mason-ze6ri]

Hi Dave, very interesting topic. I have to admit I have never heard of some of these works before and apparently for good reason in most cases. I have seen you use the word "uninteresting" with regards to works, thematic material or orchestration, to me often sounded a bit broad and less informative but in this video I think you made it pretty clear what you meant, thanks for that.

[@clarkebustard8672]

Don't know "Arabella." Spend several months one night getting through "The Egyptian Helen."

[@michaelmasiello6752]

And now a suggestion for lists in this vein: 10 works in [insert genre here] that should be standard repertoire but aren’t for any number of stupid reasons (it ends quietly, it’s short, the composer isn’t well-known). You could call each list something inflammatory: “10 Symphonies We Ought to Hear Performed as Often as The Ninth” or the like. I was just listening to Kurt Atterberg’s Symphonie funebre-I decided to pay attention to his symphonies after your CPO video-and I thought, “why doesn’t anyone *play* this?” I had a similar experience with Langgaard recently (thanks to your Da Capo video). I could go on.

[@Cesar_SM]

Agreed, both composers are firm favorites of mine. How refreshing it would be if works by these composers (for instance) were performed in concert halls. They would be guaranteed hits for sure.

[@RequiemAeternam01]

Also, just a minor correction, the section of Mozart's Credo Mass that includes the Jupiter theme is in the Sanctus, not Credo (as you would think).

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

No, you are wrong. I sang it.

[@MDK2_Radio]

I find Wellington's Victory to be Beethoven's least interesting orchestral composition - not bad, but why listen to it when the 1812 Overture is available when you want to celebrate Napoleon's fall? Maybe because Wellington finished what the Russians started? :) To me only the conclusion really sounds like Beethoven. The other composers I just haven't listened to enough of their output to really say. Mozart composed a hundred masses, a genre that's a mixed bag for me, so I have no desire to hear them all when the "Great" C minor, incomplete as it is, has so many wonderful moments. Rienzi's overture is the only pre-Bayreuth Repertoire piece of Wagner's I'm familiar with, though I'm sure I heard an early symphony that made less of an impression upon me. You're right about him needing to reinvent things to really be heard. I guess that's not a work anyone performs though.

[@isaacsegal2844]

I've always had a blast (pun intended) listening to the 1812, but celebrating a Russian victory feels a bit creepy right now.

[@joebloggs396]

@@isaacsegal2844 You could see it as a coalition victory.

[@patrickhackett7881]

@@isaacsegal2844 It's an American Fourth of July tradition now-- just claim it's about the American-British War of 1812. Tchaikovsky is dead, after all.

[@isaacsegal2844]

@@patrickhackett7881 What's to celebrate about the War of 1812? The British taking Washington D.C. and burning down the White House? The only major engagement that ended with an American victory was the Battle of New Orleans, which was fought well after the war was actually over. The Treaty of Ghent-which ended the war-had already been signed, but news of it had not yet crossed the Atlantic. Nice try, though. If I want a truly American celebration, I'll stick with the last movement of the Ives Second.

[@patrickhackett7881]

@@isaacsegal2844 Battle of New Orleans. Rely on the public's sketchy knowledge of history. That part was a joke anyway. We condemn Russia today for its invasion of another country, and the 1812 Overture officially celebrates the defeat of an invading army. There will be celebrations as Ukranian forces push out Russian invaders. So it isn't in poor taste to continue to listen to the 1812 Overture (if you like it). However, I haven't listened to Tchaikovsky's Second Symphony since the invasion.

[@peterattenborough5324]

Recently you mentioned Tchaikovsky's Souvenir de Florence, which I had barely heard of. I would love for you to do a video on major composers' major but rarely recorded works that should be much better known.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I have done many of those already, and will continue to do so. The Souvenir de Florence is not rarely recorded, but like most chamber music, it's not as well known as it should be!

[@daviddavenport9350]

@@DavesClassicalGuide There is also a string orchestra version of Souvenir that might even work better than the chamber version.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@daviddavenport9350 No, it doesn't, but it's just as good.

[@MrRuplenas]

"Mozart was the worst composer of liturgical music in the entire classical period." Well, that's certainly a definitive statement. How it can be made after hearing the C-Minor Mass (which Leinsdorf lauded as one of the greatest handful of sacred works), the Vespers (both de Confessore and de Domenica), all the masses (INCLUDING the Coronation Mass), the Ave Verum Corpus, and the dozens of shorter liturgical works is to me mystifying.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

It's actually a pretty uncontroversial statement. So stop being mystified and think about it rationally.

[@vdtv]

The triple concerto. Yes, not the most inspired thing. But more interesting, by far, than Christ on the Mount of Olives. That's a bore-fest of Rinaldovian proportions! I've tried to get through it three times now. Twice I gave up and switched it off, once my mind gave up and switched me off, meaning I woke up to the sudden and blissful silence. I see there is now a second list, so who knows - this might already be on it. Apologies if so, but this one just cried out for a mention.

[@roko63]

I'd say Beethoven's cantata, Der Glorreiche Augenblick. It's so obscure as far as I know it's only had one recording. Written (probably hastily) for the Congress of Vienna in 1814, so you'd think it would be prime middle period Beethoven.

[@dennischiapello3879]

I have to hand it to you for evenhandedness: You put Persephone on the list and then talked about how much you like it and why it shouldn't be on the list! 😄 Well, it's a good example to set for your listeners: we should learn to be unembarrassed by our own tastes. Just keep listening!

[@bomcabedal]

I think Rinaldo is usually around forty minutes in length. It may _seem_ as long as _Ein deutsches Requiem_ , granted.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Twice as long.

[@MichaelConwayBaker]

I just love David's opinions!!

[@MusicMan-dv7jg]

This was very interesting!

[@RichardGreen422]

A college friend of mine suggested that cannons would improve the Triple Concerto. Daaaah, daa, daa, da, da,da, BOOM! etc.

[@maxwellkrem2779]

Love the quips in this one, esp. "Rossini with constipation"!

[@oeneroorda2699]

David you’re probably not lost for ideas, but in case… a variation on composers and the quality of their compositions. Shostakovich has written jazz music, jazz suite No.1 and 2. It’s nice, sort of jazz, but it isn’t. Are there any other composers that composed a piece in a style that just wasn’t.

[@tritemotifs4198]

I think the point you make around 9:45 is why Rienzi is not, in fact, Wagner's least interesting work. I believe it’s worth the time of people who are interested in his mature works to hear what it was exactly he pushed himself to move past, and even to discern what of that he kept with him. Rienzi or even Die Feen (barf) are worth submitting to once or twice for that reason. Even the American Centennial March commands a morbid fascination in that it's for real a product of the same deeply principled artistic force as delivered Tristan or The Ring. Interesting! Like mold! What everyone should definitely not worry about experiencing for themselves is his Symphony in C; a nullity which could be charitably described as missing time, like people who have been abducted by aliens describe. That thing, there is nothing interesting about.

[@valerietaylor9615]

I’ve never heard a complete performance of “Rienzi”, though I love the overture. But I agree one hundred percent that the Symphony in C is Wagner’s least interesting work. If all of his music had been that mediocre, he would have been one of history’s most justifiably neglected composers.

[@normanarmstrong3838]

Tchaikovsky's 3rd was nicknamed The Polish after his death by conductor Augustus Mann at the crystal Palace in London because of the polonaise finale. Its got good tunes and the slow movement is great and haunting. It IS a symphony because of sonata movements and subtle connections between them. However, there is no dramatic drive as there is in all the other symphonies, no sense of direction. Lovely to listen to though, i still think every bit is pleasant or exciting.

[@eugenebraig413]

This was fun. I think Wellington's Victory might give Beethoven's triple concerto a run for its money.

[@scottweaverphotovideo]

Listening it occurred to me to make a video on the best insults composers have bestowed on other composers, and responses to criticism of their own work. You could ring the gong after each.

[@dennischiapello3879]

OMG, Dave will have a cow for your calling his tam-tam a gong! 😄

[@scottweaverphotovideo]

@@dennischiapello3879 the Gong Show

[@christopherjohnson2422]

I still remember reading, as a classical music-loving high school kid-Nicholas Slonimsky’s “Lexicon of Musical Invective,” which consists of negative reviews written by dyspeptic music critics.

[@scottweaverphotovideo]

@@christopherjohnson2422 composers seem especially sensitive to criticism.

[@scottweaverphotovideo]

@@christopherjohnson2422 I've got a list of about five favs but I would love to hear what Dave Hurwitz might have to offer! I just learned about him and this channel and it's been delightful hearing his thoughts. Doesn't matter if I agree, I still enjoy it all.

[@petermerelis]

couldn't agree more about LVB's triple concerto. snoozefest.

[@pavlelazarevic3270]

Prokofiev 3rd symphony. Only 2nd movement worth something

[@benjaminharris2043]

Interesting that I tried to think of an uninteresting work by Haydn. Can’t think of a single thing. Genius.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Just wait.

[@benjaminharris2043]

@@DavesClassicalGuide oh noooooo!

[@leestamm3187]

Even if the rest of it is pablum, "Rienzi" has an outstanding overture.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

No, it doesn't. It's a piece of trash.

[@leestamm3187]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Fine with me if you don't like it. Trash or not, I've always enjoyed that overture and make no apology for that.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@leestamm3187 I do like it. It's just a fact that it's trash. Own it.

[@leestamm3187]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Gladly.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

@@leestamm3187 That's the way to do it!

[@SoiledWig]

Funny that it seems the only way Mozart would come up with something totally uninteresting was to deliberately demonstrate his utter indifference to the whole project. i'll have to revisit some of his liturgical music and find those spots where he's thumbing his nose at expectations.

[@tomfinot623]

Tchaikovsky''s 3rd is a fun tuneful work much like the suites for orchestra. I think most people are expecting extreme angst and drama when they see symphony connected to this composer. Perhaps if he had called it a suite, which is what it really is, Instead of a symphony listeners would receive it in a different way.

[@kanishknishar]

That may very well be true. I find his suites to be boring but at least if it were called a suite, it wouldn't be clubbed with the other 5.

[@fred6904]

I listened to Rinaldo today. I like it. I could listen to it a few times in a year. Fred🇸🇪🇸🇪🇸🇪

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

That's lovely. Just don't invite friends over when you do.

[@fred6904]

@@DavesClassicalGuide 😂

[@andrewhcit]

Oh, I can think of worse pablum by Wagner. Consider, for example his American Centennial March. He admitted he was mailing it in and only took the commission because he was broke after the first Bayreuth festival, but you don't have to know that to be able to tell from hearing it.

[@normanarmstrong3838]

How about recordings of most uninteresting works that are so good that they become interesting. Already done for beethoven's triple

[@RobertJonesWightpaint]

Every time you say "Hallo Friends!", I always reply "Hallo Dave!". I'm sure you wanted to know that...... Enjoyed "Rossini with constipation". Oh, and that Debussy ... I've always hated it, and now feel I'm not the tasteless, tone-deaf no-note I feared I might be. And no, I knew nothing of the Handel Joseph and his Brethren: and now, I need not seek it out.

[@jgesselberty]

Just got, and listened to "Joseph and His Brethren." Admittedly, just to complete my collection, along with "Alexander Balus." It is overly long and does drag. I bought it because it was there.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

So did I. And I was writing a book.

[@dennischiapello3879]

I lost interest at the word Brethren.

[@michaelmasiello6752]

Oh, and a question, Dave: I of course agree about Mozart’s lack of interest in composing sacred music, but I am now shamelessly wondering what you like. About the Requiem you’ve always been clear-you hear lovely moments, but it’s not all Mozart, and not compelling as a (not) whole-but what do you make of the massive torso that is the C minor Mass? (What I like is irrelevant, of course, but I think it has some great moments). How about “Exsultate, jubilate”? And perhaps above all: “Ave verum corpus”-a minor masterpiece (as I hear it) or something else? This is me soliciting your opinion simply because I value it, of course!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Mozart is always at his best when he can write expressive vocal music. He was not a composer for the chorus, not did he respond to the more doctrinaire or transcendental aspects of religious texts. Being a genius, of course he wrote beautiful music all the time, and in works such as the C minor Mass he set the parts that interested him or came to him most easily brilliantly--but then ignored the rest.

[@michaelmasiello6752]

@@DavesClassicalGuide Much-appreciated. Describes what I hear pretty damned well, too.

[@murraylow4523]

@@michaelmasiello6752 well yes I really appreciated Dan’s comments on Mozart here as they’re spot-on. You only have to compare 5he mass settings with, eg, the Masonic funeral music and related works to see where his priorities lay

[@murraylow4523]

I meant Dave, not Dan, obvs, my iPad won’t let me edit!

[@UlfilasNZ]

You'd take Friedenstag over Arabella?

[@jasonhorowitz9270]

My entry for Beethoven has always been the op.49/2 sonata in G major. The op.49/1 sonata is great (as are all the other 31), but its sibling? So boring. Perhaps it's too slight to be worth the honor of being added to such an illustrious list, but what adds to its case is its ubiquity: how many burgeoning piano students were introduced to Beethoven through this second-rate Clementi? I know I was.

[@shantihealer]

By Beethoven I would have chosen Wellington's Victory. It was his most popular work during his lifetime!

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

And rightly so.

[@onecello9577]

omg the Triple... you just made every cellist cry haha (well this one anyway)

[@earthandairandrain]

Coronation Mass may be overrated & much of Mozart's sacred music uninteresting (his heart wasn't often in it), but one cannot blanket-dismiss before considering the best of his 1770s Salzburg wks: the Litanies and Vespers. Not just the best-known lit K243 & vesp K339 (ft. the famous Laudate Dominum), but their fresh & bright predecessors K125 & K321 which deserve more hearings. Discs by Estonian Phil Ch. Choir, cond. Kaljuste on Carus have been ear-openers for me; lovely soloists & choir with none of the heaviness of some older recordings.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I agree--the litanies definitely represent some of his best sacred music.

[@12Trappor]

Finally someone who tells it like it is regarding the Coronation Mass! To think that Haydn wrote so many great masses which are never performed, and instead we get the Coronation Mass just because it's Mozart. The Credo especially is mechanical, soulless music.

[@michaelmiller641]

I listened to Rinaldo about 40 years ago

[@handelviola]

I love handel but I’ve never even heard of Joseph and his brethens.

[@nicholasjschlosser1724]

What I don't understand about the Corronation mass is why it has been recorded so much. Is it just a sense of obligation? Markevitch recorded it twice!

[@joebloggs396]

I love the Polish symphony, great melodies, very underrated for me. Definitely my favourite of his first three and I think it should be much better known. Tchaikovsky will have done some much more boring works for me in his chamber music and other genres.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I will say it again: this is not about what you may or may not like. When it comes to the Third Symphony, the "judgment of history" is clear. Whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant. And I'm on your side. I think it's a lovely work.

[@normanarmstrong3838]

I think its lacks something, but especially love the big fugue in the finale and the climax of the slow movement. Maybe it's the 1st movement, a bit tepid compared the mighty epic of the fourth symphony of two years later

[@valerietaylor9615]

I tend to agree with Dave that the “Polish” is the least interesting of Tchaicovsky’s symphonies. It’s not bad; it’s just not as interesting as the others. I like Number 2, the “ Little Russian” the best of his early symphonies. But, I think his least interesting work of all is the “1812” Overture. It’s very overrated. Tchaicovsky himself didn’t think much of it. If I were going to add a second Tchaicovsky piece to this list, it would be “Francesca da Rimini”.

[@robkeeleycomposer]

Absolutely agree about Perséphone: gorgeous, although it does have its longeurs in the third movement. Some marvellous moments (the flute boogie-woogie...). Maybe it's expensive to put on, as you need a star to narrate? I've never sat through the whole of Rienzi, so I can't comment. Tchaikovsky's most tedious work is surely 'Iolanta'.

[@davijune5088]

Enjoyable video. However, one of my favorite Mozart recordings is David Zinman conducting Mozart’s Coronation Mass and, to some, his equally uninteresting Coronation concerto. I especially love the “Credo.” Oh well-Vivre la difference! Keep posting.

[@clementewerner]

I love Arabella! Yes, it is perverse, but such beautiful musik. Also, La Rondine, a light piece with a great quiz question -how many parts in Opera are scored for a character to whistle? La Rondine is one, and La Fanciulla del West, and Wozzeck another. There are more but now I forget.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Postcard from Morocco.

[@johnmarchington3146]

When you reached Beethoven, I thought you might have selected "Wellington's Victory".

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

So did lots of people. I wonder why?

[@johnmarchington3146]

@@DavesClassicalGuide After I had sent my comment in, I noticed one or two others had reached the same conclusion. I have the Dorati/LSO/Meruiry recording of it and I suppose the musket fire makes an interesting sound for the first couple of hearings, but that's about it. Most of it isn't even original Beethoven!!

[@MegaVicar]

Yes! Persephone is gorgeous; and I think that is as much a problem as a narrator. If it was by another composer it would be more popular, its not what people expect from Stravinsky. It's too Ravelian for what people expect from IS. Maybe the Polish symphony is gaining popularity. In the past several years the only Tchaikovsky played by the local symphony orchestra has been the 3rd and the 6th. But they're doing 6 again this year, so maybe not.

[@FranzKaernBiederstedt]

I find the premise of this video to be not very consistent. What exactly is it that puts certain works in this list? You said it's not about personal taste but the verdict of history---when a certain work is just neglected and seldomly performed. You certainly can't say that about Mozart's Coronation Mass, because it's being performed over and over again. It is generally regarded as the most important of Mozart's breve masses. There are hundreds of recordings of it, every bigger "Kantorei" sings it, I sang it with my school choir when I was a boy. I played the bassoon in several performances, I sang the tenor solo part in the Abbey of Limburg/Lahn under the presence of the Archbishop of Limburg. The Coronation Mass really is all around, so you can hardly say that musical history has spoken out its verdict and condemnation over this piece. So, I think, you putting it on the list comes just from you not liking it very much, could that be? You said nobody would care if it weren't by Mozart but some other forgotten composer. Well, but it IS by Mozart, and music history is treating it like a master piece by Mozart. One certainly is allowed to argue about its qualities---or the lack of them. One may like it or not. But under the premises of your video the Coronation Mass shouldn't be on the list, because this thing definitely is out there in the repertoire with a firm status and recognition. Besides that I totally agree with most of the pieces on your list.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

It's extremely consistent--it is consistently my list, and no one else's. And I explain why Mozart is there. Had it not been Mozart, no one would care.

[@rbmelk7083]

I agree that Mozart’s liturgical music is pretty dull, but I have a soft spot for the Coronation mass for some reason (certainly more than I do for the Coronation piano concerto, which is one of the few of his concerti that I do not like) possibly because I find his next mass, the Missa Aulica (K337), intolerable (even worse that Beethoven’s Mass in C).

[@ThePumpkin506]

I was sure you were going to mention Elgar's Cello Concerto

[@josepholeary3286]

Oh no! It is iconic music, the very breath of England.

[@ThePumpkin506]

@@josepholeary3286 maybe, but Dave doesn't like it at all, apparently

[@mehmeh217]

I totally disagree with your take on the Coronation Mass. I think it is joyful and succinct and more successful than the Requiem. I especially like the section in the Credo that movingly describes Christ’s suffering and then the surprise/shock of the resurrection.

[@kend.6797]

Yeah, I agree. I think the Coronation mass is one of Mozart's best pieces! At times joyous and at times sublime.

[@PieInTheSky9]

So glad you didn't say Chopin's first sonata. I love that sonata so much, yet it's so hated.

[@musicianinseattle]

Enjoyable and informative! I have a few runners-up and other suggestions: Mozart: Concertone for Two Violins and Orchestra - Mozart really phoned this one in; small wonder that it’s not known, and the glorious violin-and-viola Sinfonia Concertante is. Tchaikovsky: Piano Concerto No. 2, and, his Piano Sonata - I love his music so much, and personally adore the Symphony No. 3 (a marvelously-constructed work, by the way, that uses a four-note motif skillfully in every movement). The Concerto No. 2 and the Sonata, both of which have their moments, are far less interesting to me than the Third. Ravel: Sonata for Violin and Cello - dry as a bone. Bernstein: Divertimento, and, Arias and Barcarolles - two of those late pieces where he coasted and relied on oft-used formulae; the latter is saddled with some particularly cringeworthy “poetry” by the composer himself. Thanks for reading.

[@georgesdelatour]

I agree about Persephone. It’s probably underrated. Personally I enjoy Persephone more than Oedipus Rex or Apollon Musagéte, and Orpheus more than any of them. Maybe the narrator is the main problem. Narrators are often a bad idea, and Persephone’s narrator is more obtrusive than the narrator of “The Soldier’s Tale”, who only occasionally speaks directly over the music. Personally I’m a huge fan of Bernstein’s “Kaddish” Symphony. But whenever I’ve tried to get friends into it, it’s the narration which turns them off. And I understand. There’s probably a whole video to be made on narrators in concert music.

[@philippecassagne3192]

Having listened to "Joseph and his Brethren" again (by Robert King), I agree it is not a masterpiece. I found two pieces of interest : the second part of the Ouverture (beautiful !) and the aria "O lovely youth". Not much, but nevertheless valuable for a Handel lover !

[@ahartify]

I'm not sure about Mozart not having a spiritual sense. Maybe he didn't but what, for example, was he thinking or feeling when he wrote Laudate Dominum K339? It sounds 'spiritual' to me (whatever 'spiritual' means) even if he was not thinking of The Great Man (or woman) Upstairs or even the price of fish.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I have no idea what he was thinking. I know what he did, and "spiritual" was not it.

[@ahartify]

@DJ Quinn Sure, but Bach or Mozart may have had different ideas from ours as to what constituted the spiritual. Their idea of the spiritual would have been conditioned by the culture and religious ideas of the times. I can only say that to me the Laudate Dominum sounds 'transcendent,' and not like your everyday love aria. It's more like a prayer.

[@brianr.3085]

@DJ Quinn "...apart from one of the texts is a psalm and one isn't. ""That aria sounds like the rest of Mozart's soprano arias." And also except for the Laudate dominum being written for solo soprano and chorus while "Deh Vieni non tardar" isn't. "I think there's something to be said of Mozart's sacred vocal music sounding pretty similar to the secular vocal music, and compositionally, the sacred ones are either inferior or incomplete." Both of the Vespers(k.321 and 339), and the last two litanies(k.195 and especially 243) are all completed, frequently performed and frequently recorded works that don't sound anything like his secular works(that is, unless you have to isolate 1 solo aria movement out of 6 or 7 total in order to support your point). The scoring and use of trumpets and timpani, greater use of polyphony and church modes, all make it pretty evident Mozart was writing in a tradition influenced by Salzburg church music that was very different from the secular music he'd been composing at the time.

[@brianr.3085]

@DJ Quinn Well, it is an important distinction if one is attempting to argue that there's no difference between Mozart's secular and sacred music and one could easily mistake one aria for the other. Obviously, the different vocal and instrumental forces called for show that's not the case, especially in the other movements. As for the perceived quality of the vesper settings, clearly Mozart didn't think they were inferior since he specifically requested copies of the scores for both be sent to him in Vienna. And I doubt they would receive the attention they do from biographers and musicians if they were. It's not like the mid-tier orchestras and amateur choir groups are going to profit significantly from performing them, not enough to justify the effort to learn them if they only cared about the money and not the music. Much of the earlier symphonies and other juvenilia, by comparison, don't receive anywhere near as much attention.

[@theosalvucci8683]

I blame D'Annunzio, the librettist, for The Martyrdom Of St. Sebastien. But how do you make music about a gang rape, and why would you? I wish I was more familiar with the later music of Stravinsky, but I have a problem with L' Histoire du Soldat. I blank out halfway through. Another poor libretto.

[@jonathanfinney7821]

Agreed entirely with your list also.

[@richardwilde9157]

David, congrats on the new website. On your discussion of the worst works of composers, I noticed you pronounced Wagner's Rienzi as ree-ENsee. The proper pronunciation is REEN-see.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

No, it isn't. I asked him. Thanks for the congrats!

[@bbailey7818]

Somebody neglected to tell that to Wagner because in every instance in the over 700 pages of the vocal score, Wagner sets the name as three syllables. Ri-EN-zi.

[@smileydts]

"Yes it's wordy and it goes on too long, but that's true of almost everything Strauss wrote." T-shirt?

[@daviddavenport9350]

David...what do you think of Tchaikovsky's Suites for Orchestra?....I find them all extremely charming! 4 more Symphonic works from Russia's greatest symphonist.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Watch the video!

[@marqde1]

Wagner: Siegfried Idyll snore

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

I hear you.

[@charlescoleman5509]

I'm surprised you didn't mention Ravel's Tzigane.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Hang in there. There are more lists coming.

[@rbmelk7083]

I was sure that Beethoven’s Mass in C would make the list. Lots of folks love that piece - I find it terribly boring.

[@caleblaw3497]

I found Ravel Bolero uninteresting. The piece is simply repeating the same phrase again and again until you get super annoyed and it still hasn't ended.

[@marknewkirk4322]

Wagner - Love Feast of the Apostles - Never have so many voices produced so little effect. But yeah, Rienzi is a dog. Woof. Beethoven - Fantasia for piano, Op. 77 - Beethoven was a good improviser. So what? He was even better at thinking things through. Tchaikovsky - Mazeppa - What is pretty is pretty, but the dramatic bits are just awful. The Polish Symphony has five movements, and four of them are just fine. It's just the first movement, first theme and development section that are weak. Mazeppa is atrocious for hours at a time. Bach - J.S. Bach - BWV 572 "Piece d'orgue" - They should have done a drug test on him that Sunday. Sibelius - Night Ride and Sunrise. There must be a point to it. But I can't for the life of me find it. Shostakovich - Song of the Forests - This is what the Soviet Union wanted him to do. It won the Stalin Prize. 'Nuf said. Dvorak - String Quartet No. 2 - He thought he burned it, but they found it. Let me see if I can find my matches. Haydn - Violin Concerto No. 1 - Concertos were not his thing, mostly. This one is especially pedestrian. Stravinsky - surely Apollon Musagete is more boring than Persephone. Mendelssohn - Trumpet Overture. Well, it does have trumpets in it. But it is a conspicuously unremarkable piece.

[@steveschwartz8944]

LOVE Debussy's Martyre, especially the Munch recording of excerpts and the Michael Tilson Thomas disc of the complete thing. Granted, the d' Annunzio libretto sucks, but the music I find both vulgar (not a bad thing) and gorgeous. The final psalm is glorious.

[@andrewfeinberg877]

An even more scholarly edition, prepared by Pierre Boulez and Eiko Kasaba in 2009, was only recorded once and available exclusively to readers of the BBC Music Magazine. It is conducted by Thierry Fischer with the BBC National Orchestra of Wales. You can find it for sale here and there, but try Discogs. That's where I found my copy.

[@steveschwartz8944]

@@andrewfeinberg877 Thanks for this. To the Internet!

[@andrewfeinberg877]

@@steveschwartz8944 Found a copy on eBay. Discogs doesn't seem to have it now. It may be available as a download.

[@Bezart34]

Rienzi! All the reasons you point as being it's negatives, are all the very reasons I like! It's the opera equivalent of crap TV, you need it after a rough workday, with a bottle of red wine.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

No argument from me there, except that I don't drink which makes it more of a slog.

[@geraldparker8125]

Of all of these works gy undeniably great composers of your tensome, "Rienzi", for me, is the most frustraing of them. That opera can be thrilling if a few conditions are in place: abridge it (to mere shreds, even), leaving just enough to carry on the plot and to convey all of the really nice nusical numbers amidst the dross, and (2) cast it with the most splendid, resonant yet musical tenors in the world (of the order of Helge Roswänge, Jess Thomas, James King, Wolfgang Windgassen, that is to say, the most undeniably, gleamingly heroic, effortlessly stupendous Wagnerian tenors of all times in the title role, Then this opera has a fighting chance of making its potentially, thrilling effect. Otherwise, this opera is a complete dud.

[@michaelmasiello6752]

So perhaps it’s not major, or perhaps it’s more fun, but what about Beethoven’s Wellington’s Victory? Maybe that’s “interesting”; it definitely feels a bit trashy.

[@marknewkirk4322]

To be fair, it was never intended as a serious work of art. It makes no pretence of being anything other than a crowd pleaser and money maker.

[@daviddavenport9350]

Wellington's Victory really is fun from a musician's point of view......in the drum introductions...we had the two "sides" march in from opposite aisles of the hall with rope tensioned drums...then we used these huge "ratchets eroica" for the musketry and multiple bass drums for the cannons...amazingly fun!

[@donaldjones5386]

I thought I knew my Brahms, too! Not "Rinaldo", though.. I've always thought that a Puritanical strain was why he didn't write a stage piece. My list would include Dvorak's Symphony #2 and Elgar's "In the South", the latter as representative of his several overblown and meandering works.

[@donaldjones5386]

I add to my list: Chopin's PC #2. Up and down the keyboard, signifying nothing.

[@mickeytheviewmoo]

I would have to say Elgar's Cello Concerto. It goes on too long but it's so damn miserable. To me it's a yawn fest.

[@jacobbump1282]

Great list. I would have chosen the Mass in C for Beethoven. I just can’t love that work....and I’ve tried. I find it very uninteresting. Maybe that will change in the future.

[@johnstoddart3962]

Saw Persephone on this list and logged-in loaded for bear. Only to find we're on exactly the same page. Love the piece, particularly in the Salonen recording. As for Arabella yes, the cast ranges from boring to thoroughly dislikeable, the girl herself (perhaps) excepted. But I'd put up with the whole couple of hours of nonsense for the sake of 'aber der richtige'.

[@josepholeary3286]

Triple Concerto, Arabella, Martyre de saint Sébastien, such disappointments. I did not know of Joseph and his Brethren or Rinaldo.

[@bbailey7818]

I enjoy Arabella, the final scene is tremendously moving especially the music as she descends the staircase. I forgive him a lot for that. The second act after the soprano/bartitone duet is pretty bad, I admit and Fiakermilli could be the most annoying character in all opera. Sorry, I can do without Schweigsame Frau. That 'Potpourri' beginning is trash and the rest of the opera is equally futile. But even worse is the Schlagobers ballet which makes Josephslegende seem like a masterpiece. Rienzi Overture always reminds me not of Rossini but Auber's Masaniello Overture, ditto much of the rest on the opera. But Liebesverbot is a much more interesting work and a wale of a lot of fun. Ah, La Rondine. What a mistake, except that the second act is brilliant and perfect New Year's Eve entertainment. I accept your criterion of uninteresting as applied to Brahms' Rinaldo. But far worse is the utterly repugnant Triumphlied. Horrible text and Brahms' in a tub thumping mood as he is almost nowhere else. But maybe that's a separate category of composer awfulness?

[@vladradek]

Poor Arabella LOL. I put more weight on the fact that Strauss composed every word as Hofmannsthal wrote it. Hofmannsthal was an idealist. Strauss knew what worked on stage and what didn't. If they'd had their normal cut and thrust the outcome would have been quite different. As for the story. Well, I'm hard put to find any admirable character in any Strauss opera. Hofmannsthal was subtly exposing the hypocrisy behind the facade in society.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Oh. I must have missed that part.

[@AlexMadorsky]

As to my own list, Elgar’s Haydn Variations have always bored me to tears.

[@DavesClassicalGuide]

Who?

[@AlexMadorsky]

@@DavesClassicalGuide d’oh. Brahms of course. Could be under-esteem him him overall.

[@joebloggs396]

@@AlexMadorsky I just glanced at the comment and thought you meant the Enigma Variations. Of course that's great though the first symphony is even greater perhaps. Haven't heard the Brahms in a while.

[@AlexMadorsky]

@@joebloggs396 I go a little hot and cold on Elgar’s two symphonies myself. I’ve tried to enjoy the Brahms Haydn variations but just haven’t been able to get there. Pretty dull fare in my view, but reasonable minds can differ.

[@benjaminharris2043]

I certainly think Beethoven’s Wellington’s Siege is unmemorable. I can remember the tune of the last mvt of the Triple Concerto but very little about “Siege”!

[@patrickhackett7881]

With its cannons, Wellington's Victory fulfills its apparent purpose-- something trashy to be played at a patriotic festival

[@daviddavenport9350]

YOu dont remember "God Save the King" in Fugue form?.....it's great fun.

[@benjaminharris2043]

@@patrickhackett7881 but interesting??

[@patrickhackett7881]

@@benjaminharris2043 Yes, it's interesting, though "fun" is a more appropriate adjective. I'd rather listen to that than Christ on the Mount of Olives, or even his Mass in C.