#10MinuteTalk

The 6.5 BC is back b!tche$. Mark, Jim, and Ryan finally have the tools they need to keep working on their beloved wildcat cartridge. They recap the original project, give a state of the 6.5 BC union address on where they are at now, and shed some light on where they are headed with this exciting project.
As always, we want to hear your feedback! Let us know if there are any topics you'd like covered on the Vortex Nation™ podcast by asking us on any one of our social media platforms and using #VortexNationPodcast.
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[@davidnelson9568]

Very excited to see we are back on track with the Bc...... Can't wait to see your progress....

[@snoprojoe]

It’s about time!

[@riyes1138]

10 min talk idea: 35 Remington. I've taught several family members and friends to shoot it in a 336 marlin I'm rebuilding (cuz the walnut broke after 65 years). It's a family deer rifle passed down to me - although I've only shot 3 deer with it, neither me nor my uncle before me has ever tracked a deer as all have dropped in place (though I'm pretty sure our total number of deer taken is less than half a dozen, all shots under 50 yards here in Missouri :P). Hornady's new LeverEvolution powder and ftx bullets have given new life to factory 200 grain loads, but handloads with 357 hornady ftx bullets, speer hotcor, or hammer homogeneous copper bullets can add 200 to 500 fps atop existing factory offerings from federal, Remington. I'd love to hear your 10 min talk so myself and others can hear of this more obscure cartridge. From it's 1905 chambering in Remington's Model 8 with its 20 rd box magazine used by police to chase (and arguably eliminate) Bonnie and Clyde, to it's use by Alaskan Judge George Fulta who initially used the mild 35 Remington as his taker of brown bears, himself taking over 200 bruins in his lifetime, it has quite a tale of interesting use. When certain other wonderful hunting shows cover the 35 Remington, they unfortunately cannot do it justice as they are sponsored by federal and it would seem they cannot mention hornady's wonderful developments that show everyone modern 35 rem loads are often wider, heavier, and or faster than it's traditional 30 caliber lever gun counterpart :P (nothing wrong with federal, I give them my money too. Just sad my beloved 35 rem is jilted in sponsored representation/comparisons.)

[@DaveL9170]

I absolutely LOVE the .35 Remington. It is phenomenal in the Contender 2 break open single shot pistol with a 12 inch barrel. Will drop any deer or elk period. Also great for pig hunting.

[@matttyreeoutdoors]

Yes! I too love the old 35 rem. I've also recommended the vortex guys to discuss it many times in past videos

[@Gatorhater1911]

I hate not being able to find any of the Remington 200gr Core-lokt projectiles anymore!

[@VortexNation]

For sure! We can add that to our ideas and make something happen!

[@fedup3582]

The 35 Remington is a wonderful cartridge, I have owned and hunted with a number of them, and if you are using it in a rifle like the 336, an awesome rifle, but with some limitations, it is a great performer. But if you are going to chamber it in a modern short action bolt rifle, or some similar type rifle that doesn't have the limitations of the 336, you would be better off to go with the 358 winchester. More power, a more common case size, better all around, similar to comparing a 300 savage to a 308 Winchester.

[@mikekropidlowski1237]

Thanks for the update

[@RkyMtnHiker]

Sounds like 6.5 BC is going to be a winner. Looking forward to the next update. Thanks.

[@reecerq87]

Love the BC project. Can't wait for future updates.

[@VortexNation]

Glad you liked it!

[@brydengudbranson2728]

Do a 10 minute talk on the 300 Savage, the most average cartridge around

[@ronlowney4700]

👍 Thank You for Honoring My Request to Update Us on the B.C.! 🥳 Once you are finished, I would love to see you do a podcast on what you learn and what mistakes you made - just in case I decided to move forward with my own designs! 🤔

[@christopherfreeman3095]

Biggest lessons learned in wildcatting: 1- make sure the reamer specification matches the specific brass you will be starting from. Minimal clearance at the 0.200” line. 2- make sure high quality brass is available for the parent cartridge. Wildcatting works brass much more than regular reloading and the case head and primer pocket strength are highly important. Plus, for the extra time and effort you have to put in, getting more firings on each piece of brass pays dividends. 3- Your sizing die should be made from fireformed cases. This is the only way to make sure the die correctly sizes brass for your chamber with proper headspace and base dimensions. 4- measure the neck thickness once formed to your new cartridge. You may need to consider neck turning. 0.012-0.013” neck wall thickness is generally considered ideal. If shortening from a longer parent case, the brass gets thicker past the shoulder and will need to be turned down for proper tension on the bullet. I went on this journey a couple years ago to make something totally different, and much more involved than changing neck diameter, blowing out the body taper and shoulder angle. Definitely a valuable learning experience. Doing the homework up front will save quite a bit of $$$ in the long run, avoiding iterations of reamers, dies, barrels, and components. Everything else is just guessing at powder burn rate and fill ratio. Nothing too difficult once you’ve taken a water capacity measurement.

[@ronlowney4700]

😁👍 Thank You Mr. Freeman! 🥳

[@VortexNation]

@@ronlowney4700 Thanks for being patient! It's been a wild ride!

[@ronlowney4700]

😁 Great Job! Looking forward to more "updates" because I have an idea on my own "wildcat" cartridge and it helps me to know what I am up against before I go throwing away $$$$! Thanks Again, it has been "most insightful"! 👍

[@alexanderchase6604]

@@VortexNation more frequent updates and more wildcat talk would be awesome, maybe another full length podcast about the BC and wildcatting, including more load development with the new powders and projectiles, including the new tikka rifle

[@BrassCatcher]

I use a cva single shot as a sturdy platform to develop 350 legend subsonic loadings. The first couple attempts will have you nervous, I reached around a big tree with my left hand lmao

[@jeremyharshey4974]

Interested in the concept, is there much available in heavier bullets? How did the standard rifling twist do stabilizing them? Would love to see some home defense loads come out with fast burning pistol powders optimized for shorter barrels(both subsonic and super).

[@sergeantdwz5783]

They make them commercially

[@BrassCatcher]

@@sergeantdwz5783 the single commercial subsonic loading from Winchester doesn’t stay subsonic out of my 12.5” or 16” barrel. I’m running a 294 grain powder coated cast lead hollow point around 1000fps and it’s much better both in terms of sound and performance.

[@brett1354]

Looking forward to more .5 BC progress. Good luck.

[@mj23isthebest]

thanks for the update, keep them coming👍🏻

[@VortexNation]

Can do!

[@fredthompson1279]

Looks like a fun project guys.

[@JohnMark-th6kr]

Thanks for the update on the BC. Always fun to here cartridge talks! I’m still waiting to here Ryals talk on the 7 rem mag, I know he’s made comments on it before and doesn’t seem to like it. Another 10 minute talk idea I think would be fun is rifle actions and platforms. Model 70, Remington 700, tikka, Mauser etc: Thanks always fun to get Ryan’s opinion on things.

[@BushmasterM4A3]

Finally! Been looking forward to an update!

[@VortexNation]

🤜🤛

[@LC-im3ps]

Great update. Keep it up fellas.

[@VortexNation]

Thanks for tuning in! The 6.5 BC has been an adventure!

[@EverydayPeople744]

Too bad we aren’t neighbors you could come over and borrow a cup of 7828sc.

[@markjohnson206]

I saw another commenter bring up 338 federal. What a cool sub 300 yard cartridge! And another precocious son of 308

[@keithjessee4519]

I'd love to see an episode on 338 Federal, 8.6 Creedmoor and other AR10 "alternative" cartridges. Honestly a whole episode around AR10 style DMR stuff would be interesting to me.

[@VortexNation]

Noted! Mark B.

[@nv854]

338 federal would be cool

[@JAKesler]

Can't wait to see more ! Never reloaded but this is just so darn interesting

[@VortexNation]

Glad you're enjoying it! :)

[@andrewcheff4035]

A drilling set with double 12g and a 6.5 BC! I would go anywhere in the world and not feel under gunned for what I will harvest! Great show as usual! Vortex podcasts and products are the best!

[@VortexNation]

Thank you!

[@johnnyk5]

A couple of my favorite wildcats are of the big, fat straight-wall variety. Both .40/10mm, one a blown out 6.8/224 (6.8 basic brass available at star line) and the other a blown out 6.5 grendel/7.62x39 (no neck, but slightly tapered). Makes great heavy subs, supers are 200gr @2000+, and works well in an AR or AK platform

[@exothermal.sprocket]

50-110 too much recoil? hahaha

[@steffen707-]

T3X For the win! Still waiting for my 7saum build to get done in T3x!

[@REAPER-1xxx]

Awesome. Wish ya’s luck. Just gonna say it, as soon as someone starts using it in the field people will likely call it 6.5 Vortex.

[@Mr.Run-n-Gun]

It would be interesting to see the BC compared to similar loadings

[@VitoBb1978]

Guys wishing you all the best in this project, I have no doubt it will do it’s intended job and bring home the bacon 🥓

[@VortexNation]

We appreciate the support!

[@matthyshaasbroek4542]

Can’t wait to see the carbon fibre BC at full speed!!!

[@leskrug9266]

I have the Ruger #1 in 375 ruger,....1" groups with hornady 300grainDGX factory loads!

[@eastvantony]

Awesome I was wondering whatever happened to the Batch Catch 🤣 JIMMMMMAH

[@jamesross9469]

Very informative, smart to dive into cartridge design before dipping your feet into annealing. At any moment during these podcasts I’m prepared for all three vortex employee’s to start chanting their sorority while hammering Jell-O shots.

[@VortexNation]

Jell-O shots after reloading. Never before:) MB

[@joshuaerlandson5623]

I get your final pick. Makes sense. 7mm-08 continues to be my favorite rifle caliber followed by the 284 win. In a custom standard length fast twist, the 284 would that much better. Expensive though. But 7mm -08 does everything I want for coyotes up to elk. Within 400 yards.

[@andyshinn9239]

I just took a new savage 100 precision elite in.. 338 lapua and turned it into a 337-378 all cause of availability of actions and components not being available. Some call me crazy but when you want what you want you do crazy things!!!!!

[@iamnotpaulavery]

So many cartridges, so little time! (and money!)

[@VortexNation]

Truth!

[@pewpew9193]

I've always wanted to see if it's possible to neck up a 5.7x28 to fire a 25 caliber projectile. I found an old box of 25 caliber Hornady projectiles & it got me thinking of a way to use them.

[@joelclark2130]

Really like the show always super interesting Wildcat stuff I wish you great success.. My dream cartridge is 6.5 x55 Swede with the Ackley shoulder on a k98 action

[@VortexNation]

Thanks for tuning in! More to come so be sure to stay tuned!

[@joelclark2130]

Absolutely I am a ballistics head I love this stuff. Just think maybe someday you guys will go down in the history books as inventing a cartridge. That was awesome, and is awesome. And it will be better than the 6.5 need more

[@VortexNation]

@@joelclark2130 😂😂😂 that would be wild! We appreciate the support! We'll keep 'em coming! 👊

[@ewetho]

My Wildcat is a 6.5x257 Roberts AI R (essentially 6.5x57R Ackle Improved) rimmed cartridge is optional in my Encore! Joel that would be a sweet rifle! It is actually formerly a commercial cartridge 260 AAR (all around rifle)

[@exothermal.sprocket]

King David's actual sling..... chambered in 6.5. Now that would be interesting.

[@smittyjohn343]

I definitely want to get a 6.5 BC, sounds like a beast of a cartridge

[@craayyz5515]

How about talking about the 338-06? Such a wildcat of a cartridge and considering many people love the 338 Win Mag in Alaska. How did it flop with the beloved 30-06 parent case? Love what you guys do! Keep it up!

[@mojomike3913]

Couple questions @Ryan Muckenhurn, who made your reamers, and is there a parent case that brass can be formed from or is that RCC brass the only way to fly? I like the ideas behind the cartridge and I'd be interested in building a 6.5 BC because I like different cartridges from what everybody else is shooting but that stuff is a little rich for my pocketbook.

[@martinfernandez5005]

Once 6.5 BC becomes available mainstream, bullet manufacturers hopefully will make projectiles capable of handling 3000 fps + impacts in the 150-165 gr weights. My .264 WM may be on it's way out now because of the 6.5 BC but for 500 yrd. performance I'm still satisfied as a hunter.

[@kevinmcdonald8059]

Looks like the 6.5-284 Norma

[@mattslatzer4352]

You guys should try some IMR 7977 in this beast

[@blackshirtsrule4ever]

Thanks for updating on the BC. As always, great job on the podcast guys. Really liked this BC build as well as the custom vs. semi custom series you did with Isaiah. I have similarly wanted to do a wildcat in a Tikka for a long time-.284 Shehane with a long throat so heavies can be seated out super long and use up the space in the LA magazines. I mean no disrespect to Weatherby regarding the 6.5RPM (and don’t get me wrong, I like 6.5 caliber bullets) but I always kinda thought that the 6.5 Weatherby RPM would’ve been a more versatile cartridge for hunting (and in a less-crowded field) if they would have done the exact same thing but in a 7mm.

[@markwyatt131]

Weatherby recently received SAMMI acceptance for the 338RPM. Not as versatile as a 7, but certainly an even less crowded field.

[@fedup3582]

I believe a "7mm rpm" would basically just be another 7mm rem mag but without a belt.

[@fedup3582]

Sounds like the 6.5 bc is basically a 7mm prc necked down to 6.5, but the case body is slightly fatter.

[@tyleradkins7294]

If it ever gets commercialized you could call it the 6.5 vortex or 6.5 vtx.

[@rogerf7265]

Tonight I was watching the Ron Spomer Podcast and someone had written in asking about the 6.5 BC and he had never heard of it. He couldn't decide on if they meant PRC or Creedmoor. So the word has gotten albeit slowly.

[@davewagner1605]

What's the usable powder capacity? I sure hope you get this out to the public

[@cmolle6334]

Could you guys do a 10 min talk on .224 Valkyrie? I really wanna hear your thoughts on this cartridge!

[@wbrodgers6160]

Excellent podcast. Extremely informative. I was wondering if Vortex has any thoughts or suggestions about how to deal with transition bi/trifocals when shooting. Minimal positional changes when prone, or even on the bench, tend to shift glasses just enough to bring reticles into and out of focus. Some of us older guys might appreciate any tips you have (besides the obvious -- maintain perfect head position). Thanks.

[@VortexNation]

We actually recently did a podcast on using binoculars with eyeglasses - but can look into touching on shooting with glasses as well!

[@wbrodgers6160]

@@VortexNation I understand and I listened to that podcast. This is a different issue. It is not about eyeglasses per se but rather about using transitioning bi/trifocals, and what happens to the clarity of the reticle. As an example, if I am prone behind the rifle, and adjust the scope such that the reticle is clear, then shift to a more upward or downward prone position, the relative position of my transitioning glasses shifts -- and the reticle goes out of focus. None of you guys wear glasses -- and you ain't old like me -- but, trust me, it is an issue. Thanks for the help. Sorry to pester.

[@jimdandy2330]

Hey Mark when you anneal your groups get smaller and it last way longer even in a small bore cases like 6.5 prc

[@BollingMachineTool]

Try to get your hands on RL-33, won’t be disappointed

[@j.r.6271]

Oh yeah, B*tchcat time.

[@VortexNation]

🥳

[@rickjames2618]

I’m guessing case capacity is 264 win mag or a bit more. I’ve spent a fair bit of time with a couple of those. One is on its third barrel. All are throated to maximize case capacity I can tell you that 7828, h1000, and magnum are at there best with 130 grain bullets. RE33, LRT, and VV24n41 are better for 140-156 grain bullets. Reloader 33 while fast and accurate, is harder on barrels than 24n41.

[@newerest1]

podcast talk idea - Straight wall AR revolution 350 legend, 450 bm have been blowing up in popularity where I live because of hunting

[@carfvallrightsreservedwith6649]

Look into KZbin for a diy induction annealer. About as close to plug & play as you can get for less than $250. Controllable to .01 seconds. Unbelievably fast. And I have the ANNEALEEZ II (propane). Works great but the above DIY is so fast to setup and use.

[@farmermann210]

I agree with Jim. Ruger #1 in 6.5 BC. I'll take one please and a set of dies.

[@carterthiessen2664]

Soft brass, play around with seating depth and try some h1000 or maybe RL26 and I bet you can safely pick up a couple hundred FPS.

[@Iscariot18]

I don't know if you guys are or aren't already, but if you aren't you should absolutely be using Gordon's Reloading tool software. Otherwise you're basically shooting in the dark with no simulation data. You can create cartridges (and experiment with existing ones of course) and model/simulate all aspects of the round, pressure, velocity, even accuracy nodes, etc

[@DanielBoone337]

What I'm hearing is ol Ryan has been busy as hell... LOL That's freakin crazy to hear you used 1 piece of brass and fired it 3 times without having to resize!! Considering how much I hate brass prep that could be an awesome problem to have... LOL But just out of curiosity how much different is the 6.5 BC then the 26 Nosler?? Great video as always keepem coming guys!!!

[@VortexNation]

Thanks for watching. We need to work with it a bit more before making any educated comparisons. MB

[@20020x]

I have the powders you are looking for, and an AMP annealer, Zero press , Auto Trickler V3, come on out and load. Welcome anytime. Also, I recommend the Park West (Dakota Arms) Model 10, much prettier than Ruger No. 1

[@VortexNation]

Appreciate the very kind offer!

[@keithprinn720]

so the barrel taken off the tikka can be sold off to someone who has a rifle requiring a re barrell, not wasted cash or find one needing one to build up with a few changes.

[@joeydupre6153]

Just my take. I think the 6.5 mm line of cartridges are just about the "sweet spot" for whitetail/mule deer/pronghorn. Not the "best", but a great balance of power, speed, bullet weight, action size, recoil, gun weight and probably many other things. Bullets in the 130-140 grain range work very well on that sized game. In much the same way, the sweet spot of a framing hammer might be 28 ounces. Big hammers drive nails faster but at the cost of maneuverability and energy expenditure. Lighter hammers are easier to use but don't drive nails as well. Horses for courses, gentlemen.

[@300blackout4]

A browning BLR in 6.5 bitch cat would be freaking amazing

[@strobestruck]

I’m like crack brag who only got to hit the pipe once. I NEED MORE!!!

[@jeffbadger462]

You can get the speed ,but still do not have the bullet weight for heavy game.There are at this time no good heavy 6.5 bullets around. What is the expected barrel life going to be? Even in a hunting rifle it needs to be acceptable,1000 rounds plus? Load development ,range time, all take a toll on barrel life.

[@Brayden11877]

8mm mauser train still chugging

[@tatsuhirosatou5513]

The big question is will it beat the 6.5-300 weatherby?

[@nickjohnson8780]

would this cartridge fit in a magazine for dpms gen-1 ar10s? I'm interested in a new chambering like the 6.8 western but that is cutting it close

[@benbowditch9265]

I heard Ryan mention 3.340" as the desired COL, so that's a Negative. Biggest you'll get in an AR10 Magazine is 2.870" (Larue Tactical mags) Other than that you'd need to do an open face mag and or cut the barrel extension to barely get to 3.000" Noreen Firearms makes a BN36X3 300WM AR rifle that would work for it.. It only cost $3,500.

[@wyattsousa4081]

Can you do a 10min talk on power coated bullets

[@VortexNation]

Can absolutely add that! We'll see what we can do!

[@sssss8700]

Can we get a 10 (ish) minute talk on .30 carbine?

[@philiptrump8472]

Hey Guys, 10 min talks are awesome! I've got a good idea for you. Hunting/Match rifle 100yard zero vs 200yard zero.

[@VortexNation]

Appreciate the suggestion Philip! Thanks for tuning in and we will definitely add that idea to our list and see what we can do! :)

[@pocketbike698]

Where do we send the H1000 to?

[@A-a-ron480]

Please show your work.

[@jaydunbar7538]

“6.5 Bitch Cat”, that had to be fixed

[@markupton8922]

A year later. Any new updates?

[@boatrat]

Here's a question that just popped into my brain: "Pressure Signs". Those tell-tale indicators of deformation that (as I understand it) should begin to occur when you're reaching (past) the safe powder capacity of the case. No, I don't mean you should necessarily even want to get to that point... BUT... Without properly "malleable" drawn brass (normal mass-produced cases, vs. your current machined prototypes), how would you know when you're nearly reaching your safe/practical upper limits? Isn't it inherently dangerous to use hardened brass for load development in that regard?

[@VortexNation]

The truth is, without a pressure barrel and proper equipment to measure the actual pressures in the chamber, we wouldn't know definitively whether we were overpressured, or, seeing a "false positive" of pressure indication. When we we're doing the initial testing, I had seen telltale signs with ejector marks, but had then been schooled by the master Scott Parks about under-powered loads disallowing the case to expand to seal in the chamber indicating the same signs as an overpressured charge, and namely ejector stamping. Knowing the case capacity, and comparing against similar cartridges, and using load data from those, and with some intel provided from the brass manufacturer, we have a safe, stepped approach to this, and do not intend to bring it to the moon with respect to powder charges and velocity. The most ready indicator at this point would be primer condition, in that, if there was a weak point to yield, it would be that, and we'll be monitoring cratering, flattening, or general deformation of any kind. If present, we'll back off! To otherwise address the question, yes, it could be inherently risky to use overhardened brass - without addressing it. Incipient or total case head separation, split necks, or rupture is all increased the harder and more brittle that brass gets. With the new annealing equipment on hand, we'll be able to work with the brass a bit better with lower inherent risk! - Ryan M.

[@Weatherby406]

6.5-300 Weatherby should have been named BC.

[@JB-dz2bm]

Why not call it the 6.5 vortex?

[@jeffreyjohnson5092]

I have primers and a pound of the "Short cut" I would be willing to donate to your project.

[@VortexNation]

Thanks so much for the offer. Too kind! Good for now, but ya never know these days:) MB

[@msb2948]

So basically. 6.5 x 300 Winchester?

[@bobborlog1677]

9x39 please

[@TheBaldMiddleAgedMetalHead]

The Bitch Cat Roars 😎🤘

[@brandon7079]

300 win LONG mag

[@thomasdaum1927]

It is better than some 6.5 cartridges and not as good as some 6.5 cartridges ! …. It looks like they have just re invented the wheel , I see no real need except for the fun factor of the project !

[@TheRepublicHasBeenLost]

Not complaining. But what is the purpose of this round?

[@Nuke1568]

It was just to show what it looked like to create a wildcat cartridge. They made it to be a hunting cartridge. They never meant for it to be something that gets commercialized. They discussed what it would look like to get a SAAMI certified in one of the earlier episodes. It was just meant to be fun.

[@willg5013]

like what these guys are doing. the 6.5 bc is cool but yes probably in the end will not get any traction. This is true for most wild cats and at least half of the commericially backed cartridges, but small guys can have success. 280AI and 22-250 both became successful.

[@greybone777]

6.5 06 anything more is a zero sum gain. The 264 mag will burn up a barrel in a few hundred rounds.

[@stanleymarucha8194]

TALK ABOUT THE 284 WIN A CARTRIDGE THAT WAS AHEAD OF IT,S TIME ,

[@stanleymarucha8194]

284 AND IT,S FAMILY

[@richardthomas6602]

What does BC stand for?

[@b.a.lineman7582]

Ballistic coefficient 🤷🏻

[@VortexNation]

Bitchcat :)

[@jetthreat5000]

If y’all didn’t get an AMP annealer….

[@MarkMorland]

My vote is for the AMP

[@Longshothawk]

You could write off the amp annealer as a buisness expense....

[@ewetho]

Why would you create a new wildcat- duh - it’s fun?

[@purvie300]

why so many 6.5's?

[@VortexNation]

Why not?

[@davidsherburne8429]

Bla Bla Bla

[@blm148]

That guys hand movements make this hard to watch.

[@jamesjams5085]

When will you talk about the 300 WinMag? Too boring? Passé? Give credit where credit is due. Enough of this 6.5 And all of the Goldilocks metric cartridges from Hornady. Let’s get back to the 30s. Those are America’s cartridges. Yeah that’s right feed the hillbillies.

[@sleigh4019]

B.C ? Before creed?