12 Days of Celtic Myth II - Day 3 Arthur's Warriors

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The 12 Days of Celtic Mythology, Season 2, Day 3
You can read an annotated translation of the original Welsh text at www.culhwch.info or listen to an excellent storyteller telling the whole thing here: • The Tale of Culhwch an...
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Today’s referencesWelsh Pronunciation
Playlist: • Welsh Pronunciation - ...
Kristoffer Hughes Welsh Pronunciation: • Guide to Welsh Pronoun...
The Arthur of the Welsh. Bromwich, Jarman, and Roberts eds. (1991) p 80-82Arthur in early Welsh poetry. Nerys Ann Jones (2019) p 382nd Branch of the Mabinogi: www.mabinogi.ne...
reference to Brân’s head: www.mabinogi.ne...
My Mabon/Maponos playlist: • Mabon and Modron
Best Celtic Mythology Books: • The Best Celtic Mythol...
Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru The standard historical Welsh dictionary.www.geiriadur....
Rachel Bromwich. Trioedd Ynys Prydein. (2014) pp 94-95, 146
For the Court List:
The Court List in Culhwch and Olwen: d.lib.rocheste...
Culhwch and Olwen edited by Bromwich and Evans. (1992) pp xxxiv-xlvi, and 67-110 archive.org/de...

[@KrisHughes]

You can read an annotated translation of the original Welsh text at www.culhwch.info or listen to an excellent storyteller telling the whole thing here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nXLOmo2hqbGsgM0 If you’d like to join the live online discussions, you need to become a patron (mininimum cost $2 per month. Cancel any time). www.patreon.com/KrisHughes Information about all my classes is available at: tinyurl.com/GDclasses Today’s references Welsh Pronunciation Playlist: kzbin.info/aero/PLz... Kristoffer Hughes Welsh Pronunciation: kzbin.info/www/bejne/sIXYpJWgebWnkKssi=04G6q... The Arthur of the Welsh. Bromwich, Jarman, and Roberts eds. (1991) p 80-82 Arthur in early Welsh poetry. Nerys Ann Jones (2019) p 38 2nd Branch of the Mabinogi: www.mabinogi.net/branwen.htm reference to Brân’s head: www.mabinogi.net/branwen.htm#_... My Mabon/Maponos playlist: kzbin.info?list... Best Celtic Mythology Books: kzbin.info/www/bejne/imfMhaysnbNsos0 Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru The standard historical Welsh dictionary.www.geiriadur.ac.uk/ Rachel Bromwich. Trioedd Ynys Prydein. (2014) pp 94-95, 146 For the Court List: The Court List in Culhwch and Olwen: d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/t... Culhwch and Olwen edited by Bromwich and Evans. (1992) pp xxxiv-xlvi, and 67-110 archive.org/details/culhwchol...

[@Davlavi]

Love stories that involve Arthur.💖

[@Evan-dwi]

I have absolutely no academic basis for this, but my pet theory is that a bard telling this tale would select from the list of court names based on the audience. Not dissimilar to a stand up comedian modifying their routine based on the crowd. Although I also like the idea that it was the portion of the tale to go out and take a leak. In many of the Arthurian Cycles his greatest strength was to inspire unity and loyalty. It was seen as a great honor to be selected for his round table or even to be in his service. It seem possible that the author/scribe wanted to include any hero worthy of such a mention.

[@annitelford8437]

I agree. These tales were not written down and I imagine the scibe wanting to retain as many of these tales as possible.

[@mossymosaic]

Since you made a really good point about the sort of memory devices to help bards and the like remember names and details, I imagine any kind of written record of these or other tales would almost go into overdrive trying to compile as many names or even regional variations as possible. It could even be that the names weren't even all supposed to be included and rather some names were regional and used to tie the stories to the area, or like you said about the Irish names they were simply weird kind of translation. It feels like there may have been someone who knew they didn't have a good enough memory to be a bard themselves and orally pass on these stories, so they tried their best to add on in the way they knew they could-- through sheer volume in information. Almost sweet when I think about it like that.

[@gibjamie]

I do agree with you that the lists are about preservation. It's a bit like they grabbed loads of characters from various Heritages and traditions (Gods and Heroes) tossed them in a sack so that they all get a bit jumbled and then learned them by rote for several hundred years until they were finally written down

[@skylar9247]

This method of memorizing lists reminds me of the way use people's names to remember special words in film Persian Lessons.For the monks of the time, this could mean some secret knowledge they wanted to keep. Could be the names, stories, legends of pagan gods. Consider the naming scene here as a request for blessings and a prayer. It reminds me of the Egyptian belief that once you acquire an object's real name, you can acquire its full power.Perhaps this is a similar practice? For the power of names.

[@professorvector9535]

I agree with it being a form of preservation. I think it's possible that the view of the audience at the time was that Arthur's court is the most prestigious group that a warrior can belong to, where inclusion to the group has a prerequisite of having achieved some amount of legendary status. The author then uses the court as a device to chronicle legendary Celtic heroes. Given our assumption about preservation, I find it interesting that it is in Culhwch and Olwen where this court list is included. Are there other stories from the Welsh Arthurian tales that have such a list? I've only read the Mabinogion, and I don't remember anything else like this there. What's so special about this particular story as the place to include the court list?

[@ArchLingAdvNolan]

It could be to preserve the names of Celtic deities from many stories, but also may have served as a cleverly contrived annal which may have linked a family to the majestic legacy of hero warriors and gods. That sovereign history power was sought by many back then.

[@PaulinePitchford-xd8to]

I think it's possible that the author simply wanted to show off their knowledge and basically did an info dump. I think it's also possible that the full list was never used in oral storytelling to an average audience but only to those with specialist bardic knowledge, a demonstration of memorization perhaps.

[@christineogrodowski4871]

I can’t think of a reason other than preservation for this list but I am curious as to why some of the names include detailed descriptions of personal attributes or feats in battle. Could the story have once included descriptions of all the warriors?

[@kellebandea]

I agree, i think given the huge amount of names in the court list and the way the whole story seems to be made up of stories stitched together, it has to be an attempt at preservation. I have read suggestions that parts of it, especially the huge court list, are satire, playing on traditions of the time. I can see this working orally, but not as a written tale.

[@suemackrell271]

Genealogy is perhaps important in establishing the patrilineal lineage - son of...ap Llewellyn etc. I wonder whether Christian morality was imposing restrictions on women who perhaps had more sexual freedom in earlier societies ? Not sure of my ground here but Guinevere is represented as an adultress, so establishment of fatherhood would have been important for inheritance. As for lists of warriors, as others have suggested the audience would have been very 'knowing' and the tales were performance pieces.

[@jenniferreid-k1p]

My feeling is that it was a desperate attempt to preserve knowledge -and the writer basically went round everyone he could asking them if they could think of anyone who would have been part of Arthurs court. These people may have known slightly different sources, potentily including people who knew more of the Irish tradition then the Welsh so added in the Irish heroes, as well as basically anyone else they could think of. i can almost imaging this varied group of storytellers sat round a fire with a drink in their hand shouting out names "oh what about that Sol - he was the one who could stand on one leg all day " " yes and don't forgett tegfan gloff the lame, and wasn't there someone who coul jump really really high" "oh you mean Gilla Goeshydd stag legs..." (I can also imagine them getting slightly drunk and starting to invent some names altogether -or just shout out coml;etely randomn names from othe stories!

[@patriciawilson648]

I thought of this too, but as a way for a bard to make his name, that is by being the one to add names that got repeated and became part of the list. Or depending on how many stories the bard knew, did it become a way to tie characters together into a list that could point to the other stories, or be the start of a new story. I am late writing this down so I hope I haven’t repeated anyone else’s ideas.

[@tompatterson1548]

Or maybe the Ulster Cycle occurs during Arthur’s reign? Didn’t he conquer Ireland?

[@KrisHughes]

Don't give to much weight to the historicity of Arthurian literature. Even if there was a historical Arthur, few of the stories actually depict history. The Ulster Cycle is said to be set in the 1st century AD - long before Arthur. But it probably isn't accurately historical, either.

[@tompatterson1548]

@@KrisHughes yeah, I would argue that the Ulster Cycle is ahistorical too, more so that people might have imagined the Ulster Cycle happening in the 5th, 6th, or 7th century AD.