12F Punishers Ranked WORST to BEST | Data Comparison | TEKKEN 8

/ discord
In this series, we're answering the unanswered question of who has the best punishment in TEKKEN 8. This is the second instalment, where we'll be collecting and comparing to find who has the best 12 frame punishers. Hope you enjoy!
Raw data is available in the #discord-tech channel in our Discord server. Let me know what you guys think!
Timestamps
00:00 - Intro
00:18 - The Rankings
02:45 - Missing Characters
03:09 - Top DAMAGE
05:26 - Top RANGE
05:49 - Top SITUATION Explanation
06:11 - Who gets the MOST value?
07:09 - Who gets the LEAST value?
08:04 - Overall Tier List and Outro

[@WpgLeader]

Claudio has an additional 12f punisher in STB 4,2. It wall splats and does 45(!) damage with the same range as 4,3 (2,19) so it should probably be somewhere in the top 3 punishers.

[@yusufbukhari6962]

I was about to mention that so well. It's also a counterhit launcher and a projectile

[@keyrussell6057]

Imo Claudio’s 12f punish game is some of the best in the game. STB 4,2 is an insane 12f and f 2,2 giving starburst makes punishing a -12 move properly feel so good in either situation.

[@Mikaaaaayswan]

Hi sorry I am pretty new to tekken and only tried 2 characters so far. But what's STB?

[@WpgLeader]

STB is a shortening of Starburst which is a buff that Claudio gains after landing certain attacks such as running 2 and f2,2. Starburst buffs some of Claudios attacks and is unlimited during heat. db1+2 is probably the best Starburst attack since it is a 18f safe mid launcher that high crushes. ​@@Mikaaaaayswan

[@WpgLeader]

Also, Claudio is great for beginners due to his simple but effective move set. His lows and mixups are pretty weak so he forces you to play with timing, spacing, and movement which is a good skillset to have in t8 ​@@Mikaaaaayswan

[@raskkii]

I feel like Nina's db+1+2 deserves a mention here. 11f punisher with pretty good range and it's also a heat engager

[@joreass6150]

came here to type the exact same thing

[@jevonsw1]

This is such invaluable data. This is the only game I plan to play for foreseeable future. You’re writing textbook level analysis. I’m proud of your dedication.

[@djangotur0910]

Ninas i11-punisher, db1+2, is arguably better than her i12. Its less damage on its own, but its a heat engager, gives absurd damage after a heatdash and it wallsplats.

[@martikolmartikolz8924]

I like this channel cause it sounds like I'm watching a true crime video with the voice. Also, you forgot to compare Lee's Acid rain and 444 in the last part.

[@yllifazlija1811]

since he put lee in "OP" tier in the final list, it's fair to assume he took acid rain into account.

[@zoroasper9759]

As an Asuka player I am more aware of when something is -12 or -13 then when it is -10; you NEED to make sure your punishment is on point playing Asuka One more thing about her i12 punish; you better make sure that you're not late with it as 2,3 is -17 on block, for whatever reason

[@sorataakihiko4875]

T^T wait until we get to i14 punishers! but seriously i really feel like i could make people regret moves if our punishers were better :/

[@naorhh1]

Asuka main here Totally agree

[@herpderp4078]

@@sorataakihiko4875 the only i14 i care about is jet upper

[@sorataakihiko4875]

@@herpderp4078 fair enough xD

[@JunTheDude32]

Asuka is designed to counter mash. Not block and punish. Be glad she has an i10 at all because from a design standpoint she shouldn't get one

[@ZaoJin]

Jack also has 23, which is i11, +5 on hit, less damage than 11 but more consistent at range

[@leopart7600]

Your work on theses data is just priceless Thank you !

[@Limaonyx]

Lili's best 10f punish is 1, 1 imo. It leads to her backturned mixup and has similar damage

[@jclarke90]

Knockdowns are always better than a standing mixup

[@notyourbaby4978]

Another quality video. Give this man a raise! He needs more subscribers and supporters.

[@hzqaj]

hey i have a great video idea. its about heat activation for each character and what moves unlocked during it. what to be aware of during each character's heat and all that. love all your videos man and i hope you see this!

[@2134Leks]

OMG a PUNISHMENT SERIES! you are the GOAT of tekken 8!! The ammount of work you put into your videos is CRAZY!!! thank you bro

[@malekswagger9662]

another banger video, as always

[@BATMAjiN]

Great approach man! What you do is really GOLD! In this specific video, the only thing I don't agree to is the underestimation of wall spatting. This is the tiniest-map-tekken ever and the possibility to wall splat at -12 is crucial in my opinion, raising the damage from ~30 to over 70 in some cases. Since the probability to have a wall behind is relatively high and the probability of being -12 is pretty sick, mathematically speaking I think you should ponderate it more in the final tier list. Let me give an easy example coming from the 2 extreme "tiers": Highest tier King has 33 dmg in ANY case 100%, no wall splat, no oki, no mixups. So his EXPECTED dmg is of course 33; Lowest tier Asuka has 25 on normal conditions, but with a wall splat is easily 61, with no execution at all. Considering a 25% probability (I think 1 every 4 is kinda realistic in this Tekken) of having a wall behind your opponent, the EXPECTED damage raise to 25*0.75+61*0.25=34 taking her damage above the first "tier" and we are not even considering the free mixups and other exotic variations. Of course this is a scholastic example to express the concept, but I think it's kinda representative of how much the tier changes from raw damage to the expected one, which is the real deal in game design. Anyway, I REALLY appreciate your job, I can understand how much work there is behind this and I literally LOVE the data driven approach you have! By far the best tekken pro content I've ever seen! Thank you so much!

[@w_smith_1990]

These videos are so helpful

[@sorataakihiko4875]

thx ofr the video! great info as always damn Asuka is really getting the short end of stick eh?... maybe i should pick up Lili instead >.>

[@catnipnapkin3329]

Epic knowledge in this video.

[@Excelegance]

Lee Chaolan is excellent when it comes to punishment, the man has everything you need. 🌹

[@SuccessfulMentality94]

Great vid as usual. Only issue is that the 12f punish shown for Lars was f2,1 and marked as “2,1”

[@gateofbabylon9177]

was gonna add this in as a Lars player myself. Wrong move shown in the video

[@doppe7186]

Hwo also has 44 which does slightly less than 43 but leave him in rfs which has amazing mixups

[@MacAves]

Lee player here! The combo at 4:19 is all guaranteed, yes, but you can also actually get a Blazing Kick after the HMS u4 for an extra 4 damage (I think?), and if they get up the wrong way it can full launch too!

[@doppe7186]

Omg macaves plays tekken😮

[@MishimaComplex]

Appreciate the info! Will update my data 🙏

[@MacAves]

@@MishimaComplex New patch killed it don't bother now lol

[@Jed4YIL]

I would say going for victor's 12f punisher instead of the 10f punisher is pretty significant. On top of dealing more damage, it goes into IA which is very good and is otherwise hard to access in pure neutral. So doing the right punish helps you accessing IA more often which circonvent victor's linearity and lack of mixups.

[@sharma4826]

The 333, isn’t the shot blockable? Didn’t know the whole thing is a natural combo.

[@strayzzfaxz6740]

​@@sharma4826The 3 button is Eddy's thing. Victor owns the 2 button.

[@ragnarok7452]

Ah vic2or.

[@Jed4YIL]

​@@sharma4826the shot isn't blockable once you get hit by the first hits, no.

[@Dyleniz]

Another Lee W his standing punishment is god teir

[@assassinonprozac]

Except 12 frame, technically. While Magic 4 is one of the best 12 frame punishes in the game it’s i11, Lee’s actual 12 frame punishes (D+4 and D/B+4) are hilariously garbage and easily the worst in the game, actively detrimental to use.

[@MrArso99]

excellent content as always. i would had another data. How safe it is on block. We are not always aware whenever to 12F or 10F punish, so having that ranking could be cool. For example let's take Nina. She has B1, 4 -12 on block and B2,2 -6 on block and 4 damage less. You can extend b2,2,2 and be -9 on block but is duckable. So for Nina, if you are sure about your punish, go with b1,4, if you are not b2,2

[@ChayBenji]

For Juns i12 punish, you should know that you can get 2,1,4,2 with the last hit being garunteed to be blocked or counterhit, and that move chips, so essentially the damage should be added to the punish.

[@MishimaComplex]

Thanks for the info! 🙏

[@Say_Irish_Wristwatch]

Yoshi can actually get a guaranteed dash into grounded f1+2 hit after his 2,1 in nss, making it very worth doing if you can execute it consistently. Also, while 1,1 and 2,1 in nss both wallsplat, 2,1 does so without taking you out of nss, allowing for a stronger wall conversion.

[@MultiAwesomered]

Steves 2,1 into stance gives +13 on hit for one or two less damage and the same range.

[@nothinghere7694]

Best tekken content

[@Pipboy3000]

Claudio's 4,2 with starburst is pretty absurd. 45 raw dmg with a wall splat. At the wall you can get ~80 dmg with oki

[@slavinplays4114]

Extra bit about asuka’s: it is launch punishable on block- meaning don’t mess up that punish or you die

[@Winterliche]

one thing to note here is yoshi's NSS 2,1 has a guaranteed NSS F1+2 followup (29 damage added on)

[@Eliot9999999999]

nice

[@damastah100]

Addendum on Zafina and Feng, since her heat smash is included here, Feng has Heat b1 > Shoulder because b1 doesn't need the counter hit during Heat so it becomes his optimal i10 to i12.

[@pite9]

Yoshimitsu 2,2 get a free mixup and you can select between an offensive stance or dropping the sword. This is the best way to do that. And it's safe and 11f, making it a top tier poke as well.

[@MishimaComplex]

Thanks for the info! Will update my data 🙏

[@JadenDaJedi]

I think Raven's post-hit situation is actually up there with Steve or Asuka. It may be only +8, but it leaves Raven in back-turn, and the forward momentum puts him right next to the opponent. This has some interesting implications: 1. BT 1 is 8f, so while it is +8 you can interrupt as if it were +10. 2. You can frametrap with BT.b2,4, a safe jailing mid-high. This complements the fact that... 3. You can frametrap with BT.f4, a shocking -9 low, allowing raven to parry after, or follow up with f4,1 to be -9 and forward-facing (albeit the 1 is a high). 4. You can fish for a G-clef with BT.2,2,1, which is even -3 on block in heat. 5. You can use all these frametrap options for mental frames and extend into some of Raven's other terrifying BT mixups, e.g. f,f3 power mid vs f,f3+4 launching low with very similar startup and animations. 6. The follow-up situation after this vortex is great and allows for more mixups, especially as the lows lead to either knockdown or Soulzone at advantage. All-in-all, I think Raven's post-12-punish situation is an exceptional tool for getting Raven's main reward state going, and the opponent is at a serious disadvantage after it.

[@TheicMoggy]

Jun's 214 also has a light extension with 2141 which deals chip damage. This is a mid and safe as well. You can delay the final hit to catch people off guard and the last hit may actually hit the opponent if they keep in mind that just doing 214 is minus on hit. 2143 extension is also viable in block situations too.

[@MishimaComplex]

Great point! Thanks for the info, I'll update the data on my end for future reference :D

[@neatnet6006]

I'm of the same opinion. However, being -9f when blocked is still a fatal weakness for a good rating. Considering that 10f punish does half the chip damage on its own, I don't think it is a solid alternative to 12f punish either. Except when Jun is in front of a wall.

[@iamkasaii8792]

As a Nina player totally surprised you did not mention db12

[@treznorify]

I'd say another thing to take into consideration is how safe on block a punish is (of course, it doesn't matter if you actually use it as a punish, however - it maybe helpful to have a punish safe on block when you're trying to punish something that you can't, because you don't know everyone's frame data yet)

[@nebby9751]

I'm surprised Nina ended up with a D rank in the final table. B+1,4 has slightly above average range and high damage. Good frames but sadly has a little too much pushback to be super aggressive afterwards. B+2,2 is weaker but gives you much more aggressive positioning for grab mix ups etc And most of all, d/b+1+2 is a heat engager. Just like Lee, she can punish -11 moves absurdly hard when she's in Heat. D/b+1+2 -> charged f,f+1+2 is over 50 damage, its really strong. She absolutely doesn't belong in the same tier as Xiaoyu, Feng and Asuka 😅

[@2134Leks]

7:01 sorry.. just time stamping for my reina practice wall combo lmaoo

[@BigLeafyTree]

I would have put Shaheen as a mention for using 10f instead of 12f. By using the 10f instead where possible you lose 4 damage but the situation is infinitely better unless you’re at the wall.

[@sesujin]

7:30 Yoshi's NSS 2,1 gives f1+2 guaranteed, effectively making it a 53 damage i11 punish (+ a heat engager if they stand up). Also, in regards to Alisa, while 2,2 does in theory wallsplat, its range is so small that it almost never happens in a real game. I know it looks like it wallsplats from far away, but 99% of the time it will give a low wallsplat with no guaranteed followup, if anything. I've had opponents who have been right next to the wall and haven't been wallsplat by it. I find that 1,1 is just better as a i12 punish because it's more consistant and gives DES.

[@doppe7186]

Missed hwoarang 44 which does 28 damage and leaves him very plus in right flamingo stance

[@thecpu3949]

Thing about Lee is people would go for 10f punish in the open instead of 11 or 12f one just because it is a guaranteed chunk of damage. Though the jab range is a bit lower than that of a 4,4:4 so in t8 you might wanna be cautious with that.

[@kenanisrael9323]

I have trouble doing lees just frame and I have him at mighty ruler.

[@pocketoniofficial]

Btw b4 on feng at range 0 comes out at 12 frames. He doesn't have a true 12 frame punish but it will still punish 12 frames in certain situations

[@tabkg5802]

Other great thing about Jin b1-2 is that its easily hit confirmable, which saves you in case you fail with punish timing and makes it a decent thing to throw out in neutral/offense

[@Dr.Happy11]

that shit should've never been hit-confirmable or even delayable to begin with 💀

[@tabkg5802]

@@Dr.Happy11 cry about it lmfao

[@Dr.Happy11]

@@tabkg5802 fair point mlao

[@beshlawi]

Yoshi NSS 2,1 has dash f+1+2 guaranteed after btw.... also, I suggest that you add "safety" as a measure

[@edgarustian3948]

Jack while not having the best frames can make those frames better +4 -> +8 when he changes stance to GMH. This leaves him with a lot of mixups he can do out of stance as well as choose not to do anything and even crouch or fade back from it. I think it could be a little better on the tier list but overall yeah it makes sense.

[@MishimaComplex]

Thanks for the info! I'll update the data on my end for future reference :D

[@edgarustian3948]

@@MishimaComplex Jack has multiple moves like that where entering stance improves the frame advantage. It's a cool mixup on my side but the opponent has to deal with casino slots with the amount of options I have

[@Kekkai_]

Great analysis I'm liking this whole breakdown series but I'm confused as to why you seem to weigh range so high when we are talking about punishing. If it's used as a punish it's not missing 95% of the time, no? Imo situations should get ranked/weighted way higher than damage. Getting 10 more damage and getting left with a lame situation is 10x worse than knockdown or wall splat into more dmg into more oki. To me, if you stopped at 6:10 that's basically the tier list (possibly stage dependent).

[@akashpanigrahi8679]

Reina 1+2 is really good. Only minus 10 and wall splats; though the range is a bit underwhelming..

[@IWantToStayAtYourHouse]

4:22 after 44n4 heat dash, you can do HMS uf4 -> d,db4 (blazing kick). Its kinda hard to execute but its really good because it can launch the opponent if they press any button

[@TheUnique69able]

You should’ve also taken into account consistency. Devil Jin’s b1,2 doesn’t connect if used at an angle.

[@rasaa7227]

Nina's db1+2 should be mentioned. It's i11, has amazing range, 27 dmg into heat/wallsplats, and when in heat nets her 53 dmg. When you reach i15 punish Nina should be OP tier lol. Her b1+4 has great range, launches crouching opponents, and her max juggle damage ftom it without heat, walls, rage or any resources or stage interactions in open space is 97 dmg. I doubt anyone comes close at i15.

[@JumbaJumby]

Shaheen's gives good damage and good range, but man it's such a bummer they removed wallsplat from it in this game. As a result his fastest wallsplat in this game in i14. I actually thought wallsplat removal was like a thing in this game until I tried other characters. The pseudo splat with the extra plus frames is cool, but like way way worse than getting a real wallsplat. And it just gives a complete return to neutral anywhere that's not the wall. His 10 frame punish is just straight up better if not at the wall since you get big plus frames in their face for only a little less damage. Much worse range tho. Not complaining though, they gave him so many new tools in this game it makes sense he'd have stuff taken away.

[@stan_tk]

For Alisa there is no much sense to use i12 for the punish outside of the wall (for wallsplat) and damage. i10 (1,1) gives 23 damage, leaves oppo up close with +5 and you have a free transition to DES (stance) for the mixup.

[@toktar00]

Being a Bryan main, the 10 frame and 12 frame tier list really show how hard it actually is to switch to Bryan from a character with generics and easier executable punishes. But I can't wait for the 13,14,15 frame tier lists, just to see that Bryan is still not top tier cause of execution barrier

[@ChristopherWaddelow]

Bryan's punishes really aren't that hard 🤔🤔🤔 4,3 and 2,4 or 2,3 are just as basic as anyone else

[@CloudWithoutASky]

i think Lars isnt jailing on F2 on hit or block. so you might be able to duck the 2nd hit(4) automatically, idk, im at work, i couldnt say right now to check. I dont remember it being good at all in 7.

[@majones117]

I do really hate the knock back on Shaheens. Its great other than that

[@IAmEnormous]

You all laugh at Bryan's punishment now, but once we get to i14 we'll see who has the last laugh!

[@arxeha]

ohh so thats why its very hard for me to properly punish ppl using Alisa... the range is actual doodoo

[@kristianresh1794]

Lars fnb(or bnf I forgot)2,1? Gives you a combo though no?

[@Flay10]

That's a 14f punisher

[@tek87]

6:05 You forgot Reina here but she would be in the top category.

[@SkarjOS]

I think Shaheen's i10 might be better than his i12. i12 is more consistent and does +5 dmg, but the situation is basically neutral and his i10 gives +10 into stance which is terrifying

[@ChristopherWaddelow]

As a Shaheen player, agreed

[@x3xicex3x]

Asuka's 12 frame is launch punishable... Im surprise not many players know this

[@maikkeli]

Jackhammer leads to gammahowl which is the whole point of using it!

[@folivora6628]

Yoshimitsu nss 2-1 grants him dash in f1+2 for like 50 dmg

[@Tekkenandgaming]

On a side note, game has insane input problems…. Anybody notice that? I lethally can’t get up on the ground mashing 1 when it’s not even lagging

[@floridaman7206]

Yeah no real reason to do Jun’s 12f unless you want to close out the round with it. Her 10f is just much better do 1,1 into izumo or side step into ss4 if you think they’ll duck. Or just use uf1 for total damage. Also with Kazuya b1,2 is unsafe on block. Idk how many other characters have that on their 11/12f punishers but that is important to keep in mind. If you’re slow on the punish or wrong you’ll eat a small punish

[@IWantToStayAtYourHouse]

Lee's 4,4 n 4 is a 11f heat engager so imo its the best one. it also wall splats too

[@souljasleet]

Jun’s 10F also walksplats unlike her 12F you do trade off the self damage

[@cheeseman1223]

What about Kazuya's 1+2? Isn't his 1+2 12f as well?

[@Elivanse]

So is Jin's 1+2.

[@jakeganong9531]

@@Elivanse Jin 1+2 is i13

[@squiddyseut6103]

@@jakeganong9531wtf when did they change it? I could have sworn it was i12 on launch

[@Nerevaar]

Isn't Hwoarang 4,3 +5?

[@yak3382]

I know but it's hard getting rid of 1,1,2f... 😂

[@Eriedu]

Kazuya's 1+2 mid mid 12 F and it wall splats.

[@ThePamfi]

Not having to think about doing the 12 frame punish is not good, it's godlike. Think how about it: you alway punish with the correct move and you never have to think about other moves.

[@Yorsem]

I think Law gets the most damage off of i12 punish into wallsplat.

[@cosmedcarton]

Zafina has the worst 12f punish, her d1 is a 12f long range mid poke, it's negative on hit, it's only used against -12 moves with pushback.

[@EraseTime]

Starburst is STB not SB Peekaboo is PAB not PBK

[@patrickmurphy3601]

For Leo, 2,2 is pretty trash and you should 1,4 to go into KNK at +13 I believe.

[@TTboi69]

so lili is quite literally the best character in the game? 😍

[@zombecreative]

Zafina has d1, isn’t that 12f?

[@djnutsh.m.m6611]

Fucking up tekken 8

[@kingatowning]

Buff hwoarang 😢

[@StasionSpasski]

Kazuya’s 1+2 was not mentioned. Despite having limited range, it has guaranteed ff4 follow up which requires strong execution. 42 damage into oki is insane

[@squiddyseut6103]

It in fact does not guarantee ff4. b1,2 is pretty much better in every situation except range

[@Kovar99YT]

ahhh yes another video where asuka is at the bottom of the barrel, yet when i tell people asuka has some of the worst frame punishes in game they do not believe me..........

[@ejrodriguez5719]

Day 3 of asking for an anti-Alisa guide

[@abrahamalviarez5870]

alisa punisher is TOP MEGA GOD TIER, that thing on block creates spacing, and hit, it's a lot of dmg + knock down