137 Year Old Battery Tech May Be The Future of Energy Storage

[@UndecidedMF]

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[@aidanmatthewgalea7761]

hey matt, need to ask, i've followed your channel for quite a while now and it's becoming difficult to take these seriously when nothing is implemented with them or that there's no followup or check up to see if any progress has been made on the tech even half a year later. will you do any followups to the progress on things like lithium sulfur or the polyjoule plastic batteries?

[@alanhat5252]

@@aidanmatthewgalea7761 the tech described in this video has been in production something over 130 years, with recent updates which are also in production.

[@contrawise]

I'm curious what the cell voltage is. If it was stated, I missed it. Thanks for your very useful discussions!

[@pedratorta7061]

Hey man, i have one question.. Do you believe that the violent capitalism we live in where the top 1% has enslaved the rest of us will care for the anything but their interest? How naive has someone to be to believe that they rich will save us thanks to technology. And don't tell me engineers are made to solve everybody needs, they just are yet another subclass that were promised better wages and the rest. It is so sad.

[@pauld6967]

I believe they will get a respectable percentage of the market. As you observed, there is a variety of needs/uses that they are well-suited to address.

[@RasmusSchultz]

I think maybe it's time for a battery tech roundup? I've lost track of all these battery types. How about following up on every single battery tech from the past few years, compare them on all their various metrics, fitness for various applications, see where they're at in terms of readiness, cost, and so on?

[@stephen6631]

Have you ever called one of these scammers?

[@katm9877]

Seconding the request for a battery tech roundup!

[@tylower]

Yes, please! I would like a summary/review as well.

[@nickromo8195]

@@stephen6631 think you responded to wrong comment

[@VRtechman]

Just the thought wants my head to explode! 🤯🥵☠

[@zibbitybibbitybop]

Gelion designing the one battery so that it uses the vast majority of the existing lead-acid battery manufacturing steps was a stroke of genius. Far, far too many potentially revolutionary battery technologies never make it out of the lab because they fail to make the jump to mass production, but I bet this one doesn't meet that same fate. The high functional temperature range and nonflammability are great, too, it means I could theoretically put one in my uninsulated garage and not care that the garage becomes an oven in the summer and a freezer in the winter. The thing would likely still work safely regardless.

[@rory6089]

Their share price doesn't reflect your (or Matt's) optimism....

[@TecnamTwin]

@@rory6089 Neither does Tesla's. The market is often irrational.

[@OrenTirosh]

Reminds me of how light bulb manufacturing facilities are reused for LED filament lamps. These are not just for the retro look! Filament solves the issue of omnidirectional lighting and the glass casing solves the issue of retaining the helium required to cool them.

[@EkanVitki]

Yup, so wake me up when I can buy a bank of them... and when they cost less than lead acid.

[@Darca1n]

@@TecnamTwin Tesla's also overhyped as all hell anyways and only ever took off because people somehow think Elon is smart, instead of him just being great at bullshitting people.

[@Mekuso8]

This video makes several comparisons to lithium ion and flow batteries, but I think it would make much more sense to compare zinc-bromide to sodium ion, which is a much more direct competitor and also entering the market right now. They're both low-cost, lower-than-lithium density, and using more sustainable materials

[@julikaiba]

i think comparing to lithium and flow batteries still makes a lot of sense tho, the former because its widely known and the current standard, the latter because it was discussed in a recent video, which means it might be still in the back of ones mind. However having sodium as a third one (if what you say is true, I havnt heard of it before) would of course improve this comparison, maybe in a followup video as well

[@lordgarion514]

But both are trying to take business away from lithium. As such, they should be compared to lithium.

[@PiDsPagePrototypes]

I'd like to see that Sodium vs Bromine comparison, and also have data on mass per kWhr and maximum sustainable current output - those two factors help determine whether the technologies will be useful for aircraft, shipping or spaceflight.

[@mc_tsv1498]

I imagine there would be some contracts ahead to be either won or lost....

[@zooning-6843]

I just think that comparing lithium and zinc bromide was a poor choice, seeing as it looks like compared to the 2nd most common battery ever, lead acid, zinc bromide wins in a landslide, the big one being that you can’t use half of your lead acid battery without damaging them, with there DOD being really bad, he also mentioned they’re more energy dense then lead acid. So there smaller and can discharge further, while also being affordable… I know that would have made this one sided if he was comparing zinc bromide to lead acid, but for me, when you can make better car batteries, better off grid power storage for farms and boats, what’s not to like?

[@DwarfBaerdyn]

I absolutely love how you show your sources on screen. Such a simple thing to do, but so many content creators fail to back up their claims with even just a list of sources in the video description. It goes a long way to adding legitimacy to the presentation and I hope you know how much it is appreciated by so many of us.

[@raymiller1383]

The thing that sticks in my mind is the full discharge for dendrite removal. That’s the kind of thing set for a full battery management system with a bank of batteries. A system that could isolate a single battery at a time to take it through a full discharge cycle as part of an automated maintenance plan could extend the life of these batteries indefinitely… Promising ideas.

[@rw-xf4cb]

Redflow have that in their BMS was mentioned as a downfall of their product some time ago as the units would 'self discharge' to avoid dendrites. Thus you need more of them. Also Zinc Bromide batteries aren't very good at sinking or delivering current and thus need more units to give the total power required for the job but they are good for longer term power delivery just a matter on their size of fluid storage.

[@maddhatter3564]

nothing can work indefinately. dont fall for the perpetual motion theory.

[@cerilious]

I'm a big fan of this battery chemistry because of it's simplicity, durability, and safety. Zinc and Bromine are super common. It seems like a clear winner to me.

[@runed0s86]

Even if they're not as durable as lead acid, the materials and tech are cheaper, safer, and more renewable than *lead*

[@rickytorres9089]

@@runed0s86 Indeed lesser of the two evils.

[@jamesvandamme7786]

@Gee T I've been in a zinc mine in New York that's been shut down because prices have bottomed out. Zinc is of course recyclable so I dunno where you get the idea it's "endangered".

[@gregorymalchuk272]

@@runed0s86 What do you mean more renewable than lead? Both the lead and the sulfuric acid are the single most highly recycled item in the world, with recycling exceeding 99% in some places. That's pretty renewable to me.

[@davocc2405]

I think this one's decided there Matt... As a half-Aussie I'm STOKED to see this coming out of Oz - it makes me so happy. God I hope they start pumping these out as fast as humanly possible, even if it's an evolving product. Use them for fixed location storage exclusively, standardise the installation and access mechanisms, get it into place in a practical sense and make sure the end client is aware it's a version 1.0 solution and will evolve/improve. Here in the UK we're running into grid problems (not just generation) and I have read that we may not be able to carry and deliver the power requirements for wider scale adoption of EVs mandated by soon-to-change regulations. We really really need distributed grid storage and rather badly... Australia has a strange mixture of savagely overpriced power (a side-effect of pseudo-competition overlaid on the old distribution structure) and power is monumentally more expensive than it should be; despite that they've endured brownouts and blackouts where there is no way that should be justified (this isn't a bushfire or flood thing, it's a government and mismanagement thing apparently). Imagine these popping up under houses and tied to domestic solar arrays, etc. - the amount of sunshine they get is hard to fathom. As for going outside - I know how those noodles in the microwave actually feel. The sun is harsh and relentless much of the time, if these really are much cheaper then the main problem will be getting your mitts on these batteries and infrastructure (God help you trying to find a licensed installer then). Not sure how many lead-acid plants we have in the UK but licensing that tech would probably make sense, even if it ends up being a stepping stone before fusion reactors take over the world (as the media claimed this morning) we really do need that interim step. Even more so if international tensions and war is on the horizon; this makes a grid vastly more difficult to knock out indeed. National grid resilience is just not sold hard enough by either the industry or government (against attack or disaster) and I really think we need to step that message up sharply. These types of devices are the meat and potatoes of making that happen, absolutely LOVE it.

[@gl15col]

Exactly; just as huge wind farms are a necessary evil to give us time to develop better solar or the next big thing, a better storage form has to be the link to clean energy. If we make huge amounts of clean energy, but it can't be saved for a dark, still night we are not getting ourselves out of this hole anytime soon. Lets not waste the power we can now collect!

[@Vile_Entity_3545]

CO2 is the best out of all the storage systems for grid storage from what I have seen when it comes to components, safety and efficiency. I suppose these could be good for smaller applications. I do not see the point of a hundred different types of storage solutions where many have toxic components.

[@philliplamoureux9489]

Wonderful write up you have here!! With solar and better storage a democratic power system without the grid is the future. The best place for a nuclear reactor is 93 million miles away!

[@PiDsPagePrototypes]

Davo & Matt,.. Here in Melbourne, Australia, there is usually enough sunshine to fry an egg on a car bonnet by mid spring, and in summer you can cook hotdogs that way. There's a ton of industrial suburbs (Google Maps - "Laverton North" then satellite view) that have square kilometers of steel roof space that could be used for both Rain Water and Solar capture, the latter to make 'Virtual Power Stations' that link battery storage's of those factories and warehouses in to local energy storage and supply hubs. The Bromide and Sodium based batteries will probably be ideal for these uses, and both should bring storage costs down. I'm expecting that Sodium will also replace the LiFE batteries that are currently popular for Tradie Truck dual battery, off-grid living and camping power solutions. Davo's spot on about finding licensed installers - there's a lot of people going DIY for the automotive and camper installs. Every country needs grid resilience, the lack of it is why it's very easy to upsell UPS units for PC's and security systems, and that's something the Virtual Power Station model can help fix, especially while many of the deregulated corporations over charging for power are busy ignoring the need for grid maintenance until things fail. Re-using the old Lead Acid manufacturing plants, well, that's just recycling done right.

[@davocc2405]

@@PiDsPagePrototypes hang on I was told last light you lot are in for a white Christmas, it's only 13 in Melbourne or something. You've got snow up in the mountains still? Brisvegas is high 20s as usual (where I'm from, never made it to Melbourne). Remember the installer shortage when Aircon systems were going in everywhere? Spoke to a former IT guy who switched sides, he was making $3500 a day and had clients bidding against each other a bonus to get him to come out earlier than the other. That was about 2007 or so, it was insane.

[@williamsnow2763]

I worked at a Zinc Bromine flow battery company in 2006 and the Zinc Dendrite growth was a serious problem that became a showstopper. I hope that GELION has truly overcome this issue to make these real.

[@gregorymalchuk272]

What were they doing in order to slow zinc dendrite formation?

[@grevis101]

Great video Matt. Its good to see this with the companies like Redflow having their products actually on the market, not just in labs/testing. These seem to make so much more sense for many non mobile storage solutions. They also had some good claims about losses when the battery was idle that seemed to be another real advantage over the lithium storage solutions. It seems like lithium is more riding a wave of popularity and more people need to be made aware of other solutions that may be more suitable for specific applications.

[@Xero1of1]

My family has some land in a rural area that has limited grid connection. I think this would be interesting to use up there, especially considering my dad is planning on installing a somewhat large solar array to power all of his buildings and machines. It's in Wisconsin though, so we get hot summers and cold winters. It'd be interesting to create our own grid up there. Maybe sell some power to the neighbors, lol.

[@colinkulasik1128]

I have the same questions here in Michigan. Do we go with Lithium or are these newer technologies accessible to homeowners ?

[@silvergreylion]

A flow battery could very well need to be heavily insulated to stay above freezing. If built into a container, you'd probably need to put it on big timbers and build a shed around it. If planning to sell power to neighbours, check local laws and regulations. It's likely that the state takes a relatively big cut, and there are electrical safety precautions that need to be taken.

[@veganpotterthevegan]

If I still lived in Wisconson, I'd want a mix of solar and wind. You just don't get enough winter daylight unless you're extremely overpaneled

[@thesilentone4024]

I would suggest having shade tolerant crops and plant under them to help cool the solar and make them more efficient.

[@veganpotterthevegan]

@@thesilentone4024 Wisconsin never gets hot enough to bother with that. People in Vegas often don't cool their panels and it's very rarely 100 degrees in Wisconsin. The real issue will be keeping batteries warm at night in the winter and having enough panels to make up for the narrow window of good sunlight

[@marshmallowwp]

Awesome to see Redflow recognized in the industry. Our solar company has collaborated with them on a few micro grid projects for commercial clients. Great group of professionals.

[@johnconstantine1604]

@marshmallowwp -- Sounds great. What is the name of of your solar company?

[@dzfz2100]

Thomas Maschmeyer was one of my college professors - an absolute genius and a wonderful guy all round! So proud to see what he has pioneered within a fantastic team!

[@kennethalmond8922]

I have a large lithium-ion DIY powerwall in it's 5th year of operation. Over the last 5 years, LifePo4 has taken DIY powerwalls by storm. A key difference between them is the voltage range. Lithium-ion has a relatively large (3.0v -> 4.2v) operating range so you can set max charge/discharge by voltage to manage DOD. LifePo4 has a very flat discharge curve which means it's preferred to do coulomb tracking instead of the simpler voltage approach to manage DOD. MY POINT: One thing you don't mention in these battery technology discussions is the voltage range - e.g. flat like LifePo4 or wider like Lithium-ion. And are they compatible with nominal 12v, 24v 48v systems. For example, lithium-ion does not work for 12v systems as neither 3s or 4s matches the voltage range of standard equipment properly - but does fine for 24v and 48v equipment. LifePo4 does all 3. I agree these are smaller points :) but I'd suggest that these youtubes are nerdy and the voltage range, 12/24/48v compatibility, BMSs available?, and cycles are of great interest to DIY folks like myself and would add interest in you're presentations.

[@wlhgmk]

Hang on a minute. The Redflow battery is not a typical flow battery in which the electrons are exchanged between atoms of the same metal in different oxidative states. It is a plating battery in which Zn is plated on to a substrate during charge and goes into solution during discharge. As for full discharge, they must be fully discharged periodically to avoid spicule build up. For this purpose it is useful to have two of these 10kWh batteries. Periodically one is fully discharged into the other.

[@TheCommonS3Nse]

Man, Australia is really leading the way with battery tech. The aluminum-graphene battery was also developed there and it has massive potential. They're doing something right down under!

[@404-ThisUsernameIsAlreadyTaken]

When you've got more sunlight than you know what to do with, storing it efficiently and cost-effectively becomes the next big challenge.

[@tylerdavidson2400]

Its helps that we mine almost all the minerals in the world here so no scarcity of zinc and aluminum.

[@alwayscensored6871]

Bloody price of power here in Oz, plus we cannot trust the power companies to not have brown outs.

[@dannylujan3619]

@@tylerdavidson2400 we definitely have more elements than Ukraine.. And then we sell to a country whom then rips us off..

[@gregorymalchuk272]

@@404-ThisUsernameIsAlreadyTaken They've also got more uranium than they know what to do with, and they solved that problem by banning clean nuclear power.

[@mkkm945]

Australia, with its abundant sunshine, is ideal for such a battery placed in the back of every garage in every single family home, not to mention larger stores/shopping centers. My friends in the country talk of EVs selling out whenever available and proliferation of rooftop solar. I think it's only a matter of time (and, perhaps, govt policy).

[@junkerzn7312]

The round trip efficiency for the LiFePO4 (also known as LFP) lithium chemistry is around 95%, actually. This is where essentially all lithium-based vehicle and fixed storage systems are headed. You may have been quoting efficiencies that include the charge controller in the loop which would not have been an apples to apples comparison, or other lithium chemistries which don't represent where the technology is heading.

[@owenwilson25]

Although I love the idea of making better use of Iron, it does sound as if Gelion and Redflow have their grid compatible products ready for retail. Especially here in Australia with so many households pumping their excess photovoltaic power to the grid each day, we're in need of grid sized battery capacity; and a tech that would have better than a ten year life with daily discharge sounds quite plausible.

[@RealTechSkills]

Great update on these batteries. I definitely would consider them as a possible home backup storage system (if they become available for the USA residential market). I will have to check into this possibility.

[@jamestaylor3805]

Still using a pair of 20 year old lead acid farm batteries at the old family camp with a 3kw inverter(newer) and some 20 year old 50w panels. These run a fridge and freezer year round, and all of other power needs when the camp is in use. Ive no doubt that about $400 of tractor grade batteries would anchor a small family home without struggle. The currently available tractor batteries at Tractor Supply Company cost about $3/kwh, and about 0.5 kwh per kg. They are heavy and bulky for the energy density, but are extremely stable.

[@stephenkeller8208]

Wow that’s pretty incredible for lead acids I thought my 11 year old car battery was impressive

[@jamestaylor3805]

@@stephenkeller8208 the ones built to bounce around on farm equipment for 100+ hours a week are quite durable when sitting calm and quiet. That camp isn't going through nearly as many power cycles on them as a piece of farm equipment does either. But yeah, they're doing just fine. In a heavier use domestic situation they would probably have a shorter life span, but the big expensive things are showing only decade long expectancies.

[@colinkulasik1128]

Matt, I understand these zinc bromide batteries are not for cars and the industry is focusing on commercial applications but what about residential applications? Obviously the LiFePO4 battery is the fad for now but in these battery videos could you add content for residential comparison? Are these technologies accessible to homeowners?

[@tippyc2]

You probably won't be able to buy one anytime soon, but theoretically it could work well in a residential application. The energy density doesn't matter as much as some of the other considerations. If the claims of low fire risk holds true, that alone could make this easily the most desirable battery on the residential market.

[@Claudio55278]

@@tippyc2 that's true. There is not one single solution for everything. Everything in nature can be used in some beneficial way. And the batteries are not exception.

[@PiDsPagePrototypes]

I reckon the Sodium based ones will replace the LiFE used in homes and camping, especially as the Sodium is going to cost a lot less then Lithium, and anywhere there's access to the Oceans, say, the pipes on the outflows of Desalination plants, there will be very cheap Sodium available.

[@vitordelima]

Lead acid is more than enough for residential use.

[@peterbrown6453]

@@vitordelima lead acid batteries do have a slight downside of evolving hydrogen when charging, which is pretty easy to deal with by making sure it’s ventilated. Don’t put them in a basement though.

[@Hero4Hire4]

Thank you! I had been aware of Redflow’s residential flow batteries for a few years. I wasn’t keeping up with them since they weren’t offered in the USA at the time. It’s great news to hear they have finally made their way here! 😁👍🏽🏆

[@davidg2861]

Would be very interesting to hear how these ZnBr batts compare at single house scale e.g 10-20 kWh. There are still people installing Pb-Acid batts due to the immediate cost and (perceived?) fire risks of LiFePo, even though after 5 years they start regretting it. If the material costs really beat LiFePo, I can see a big market in that sector!

[@MKahn84]

How about the Edison Battery; the nickel-iron battery. They have low energy density, so the batteries are big, and a fairly high self-discharge rate, but in a fixed installation the fact they can handle unlimited total discharge, a wide range of temperatures, and a lifespan in excess of 50 years makes them appealing.

[@Ryan-ff2db]

Hope these get down to personal storage solutions or at least something similar. Right now a high quality 48v 100ah LiFe rack battery used for personal solar storage costs around $1,500 which considering you'll need multiple of these for home/EV power storage makes this the most expensive piece of a solar project. Any cost reduction is very welcome.

[@rickytorres9089]

Why not get the core tech installed and go one battery pack at a time? Even if you gotta use it as a backup to your main grid even. You might even be able to postitive feed back this somewhat if your provider offers off hours' rates to gracefully help "offset" expansion costs.

[@Ryan-ff2db]

@@rickytorres9089 That's kind of what I'm doing. |'ve installed a large 52 panel system to handle my house and my workshop that's grid tied. I'm working on a secondary off grid system with cheap Santan refurbished panels to charge a battery pack for other projects. Just wish they were a little cheaper. I've already spent over $50,000 on solar so far without batteries and running a bit low on funds, so I'll probably just start with 2 or 3 batteries and expand as needed.

[@therobot1080]

Something i have been thinking regarding storage of renewably produced electricity: Perhaps pumped storage hydroelectricity would be more advantageous in locations where constructing it isn't very disruptive? The principle behind it is basically ancient and reliability wise there's really not much that can fail, only some pipes, a pump a valve and a turbine are what's actually necessary

[@mwmentor]

Thanks Matt. Storage seems to be the one factor that most national grids lack, and it becomes very obvious during times of grid instability or power shortages for whatever reason. I think about batteries and inverters everyday, more so during power outages (every day for several hours a day currently). I would be interested to see what price the Zinc-Bromide Gelion batteries are sold for in SA where I live presently. They certainly seem to offer an improved all round solution that Li-Ion... but cost will be a major deciding influence on what I purchase. Thanks for sharing - interesting and thought-provoking as always 👍🙂

[@howardsimpson489]

Used EV lithium repacks will hold the primary home market for a while and negate the EV lithium metal salvage/recycle market. Even a 50% SOH will do for wall batteries, just use more of them. Same with cheap solar panels, why use expensive, fragile mppt when a few more panels do the job?

[@jimmydesouza4375]

The reason why national grids lack storage is because there's no practical method of storage on a grid scale. Closest thing to cost effective is storage reservoirs (pump water in to raised reservoirs to store excess energy then drain them to get it back) but even that is ridiculously expensive. Grid scale storage is a pipe dream ultimately.

[@rickytorres9089]

@@howardsimpson489 I could see Refurnished and Recertifications being reasonable but in no means I am buying a "as is" used thing that may or may not be just waiting to be a blowie uppie, to be unstable, etc just to save money (even if it a lot).

[@paulwright8378]

I wrote on Robert Murray Smiths channel about putting gelatine in bromine to stop it sloshing around ages ago

[@MrBadbonesaw]

I have always been pro-Flow batteries for grid-scale. With Lithium and other precious metals being used for car batteries it does not make sense for mega packs to be wasted on grid-scale energy anymore. As long as these can be stacked up in shipping containers, then they can be very useful for being placed right in the middle of cities instead of wasting land out in the middle of nowhere.

[@TheSolarGuyJK]

Thanks for mentioning the various applications of these battery technologies because we have had the tendency of people comparing Lithium batteries to other batteries without putting use cases, which make the arguments biased. I’m looking forward to regulations categorizing battery applications to manage the availability of raw materials. For example, I’d like to see regulations come in on the use of lithium batteries for static energy storage, like power plants, household backup systems and the like. With the mobility transition, it looks like we need lithium more for vehicles and mobile devices and not in-one-place storage. Curious to hear what your opinion is on that. Thanks for your videos Matt. Much appreciated

[@SaltyPuglord]

I'm very curious how these Zinc-Bromine chemistries stack up against Ambri's liquid metal batteries, especially when it comes to grid storage. They are very different kinds of technology, so it would be interesting to see them compared, and determine the pros and cons of each.

[@Wexdue29]

It's another way of storing energy. Ultimately, there will be several options used, each chosen as being the best for the particular application. One newish idea is to store sand in an insulated container and use it as a heat sink to store surplus energy. The sand can be heated to several hundred degrees Celsius and the heat used directly or converted to electrical energy. Perhaps using a Stirling engine generator setup. This system is almost infinitely scalable, it uses cheap and locally available materials that don't degrade with use..

[@judyofthewoods]

I like the heat storage idea for conversion to electricity, however, the problem I see with solid piston Sterling engines is the need for precision engineering for the piston. A Fluidine might overcome that problem. You might also be interested in a simple thermal difference engine. Robert Murray-Smith shows the principle on a model with a vibrating membrane which he says can move a magnet through a winding to generate electricity. video: youtu.be/. It is based on the work of tibsim - his videos are here www.youtube.com/@tibsim/videos. Lots to play with. Enjoy!

[@snoopaka]

All positive storage options should be deployed as soon as they are ready. I hope Zinc bromine batteries get put to use sooner than later.

[@SherwoodBotsford]

We don't want too many different technologies out there. What would be good however is a consortium that recommended a standard set of sizes and voltages. E.g. If a large car battery was one such size at a nominal 12v ., so that lead acid ws still allowed to play, then it would mean that companies would target that size as a replacement. Now inverter makers tweak the charging and input/output voltages of their units so they can adapt to a Standard Battery#3. The standards association would define a series ranging from a motorcycle battery up to units that required being placed with fork lift., each unit being something like 2-4 times the size of the next smaller one. Standard should specify foot print, hold down, terminal type and location. In this way when the Acme Battery corp goes belly up with their Uranium battey in 2050, I can replace their batteries with a different modular battery, retune my inverters, and job done.

[@rickytorres9089]

@@SherwoodBotsford Just look at basic PC systems. Diversity but with standards are good, you can in MANY cases can't go wrong.

[@CaribouKH]

From the European point-of-view we seriously need to focus on energy storage that handles the "last mile" meaning distributing the energy storage as close to the homes as possible. Having a cheap, safe battery to put into basements and car parks is essential for this application. We cannot build the whole infra to handle EV cars and going "all electric", so we need to "trickle load" a very distributed energy storage that is as close to the homes and cars as possible. We also need a lot of storage as many countries have waaay over built wind energy.

[@n0ukf]

You mentioned high temperatures but how do zinc-bromine batteries perform in freezing conditions?

[@davesutherland1864]

Given that Li based batteries are still the preferred choice for EVs, any technology that replaces the need for Li batteries in stationary storage is a good idea. If I understood correctly it appears these companies are already in production, so this is a real, not an uncertain future technology.

[@BenjaminCronce]

I wonder if they'd be useful for normal car batteries. Simplistically sounds like a decent replacement for lead acid. I wonder about batter backups as well.

[@lordsqueak]

I was wondering about busses and trucks, since it does seem to need a bit of space, but yeah cars too?

[@ameritus9041]

Fun fact lead acid batteries are one of the most recyclable and one of the most recycled items in the USA (and most of Europe).

[@larrybolhuis1049]

@@ameritus9041 In fact there is one railroad that ONLY ships the reclaimed lead from these batteries to the other end of the rail where it is used in new batteries. And it IS great that they are so recycled but they just aren't great batteries for most applications.

[@randybobandy9828]

@larrybolhuis1049 lead acid are amazing batteries for exactly what they are used for... turning over motors that require large amps for a short period of time.

[@philrabe910]

One of the more interesting tangents this made me think of was the upcycling of older ICE related industries (car batteries) It made me wonder what other parts of the ICE engine production line could be converted. Like the people who used to make starter motors converting to making electric bike motors or similar... Not sure what a spark plug maker could be transformed into.

[@wally7856]

making spark plugs for ICE engines because they aren't going away anytime soon.

[@xxxBradTxxx]

wally7 is correct, ICE will be with us for a while longer due to the energy density of gasoline. We can make synthetic fuel from nuclear power through pulling carbon out of the air, or continue using petroleum until the petroleum runs out.

[@JonathanAnglin1]

Hey Matt, I've been watching your videos for some time now and due to the many, many different energy technologies being explored, each trying to improve or solve a particular part of our complex energy needs, it's becoming very difficult to compare/contrast them. Have you considered moderating leaderboards? One for say Utility Scale storage at cost/kWh, another for energy production at LCOE? Maybe with projected environment impact costs thrown in? A leaderboard for small-scale storage like vehicles would be good too. And you regularly make content anyway when new companies come on the scene and existing companies make improvements...a perfect time to update the appropriate leaderboard. Finally, it might be a good way to give citizens a simple, understandable, and *impartial* view of the data when government leaders are making decisions and/or picking winners/losers.

[@jimmiller5600]

Or is there a "go to" source for these types of rankings?

[@Dandersenification]

This is a very good point! "I would like to know more!" - Starship trooper voice.

[@norfolkgarden]

Well said! Matt is this something you would consider?

[@BeaglzRok1]

Honestly, letting lithium have its niche as the small battery while letting something more affordable take up the big battery position with fewer downsides sounds like the best of both worlds. Less investment of lithium in these massive storage plants means more lithium to supply portable batteries, while the arguably more recycle-able Zinc/Bromide can take up the bulk of space and cut down on costs involving fire prevention systems, with those also being put to better use elsewhere. It sounds like there should be a catch somewhere.

[@Y_S_I_Thompson]

BYD and CATL will start making sodium batteries in production quantities next year. They seem as good as flow batteries. You may want to compare them with the flow batteries.

[@Bobtubeau]

You mean half-as-good as Li batteries.

[@Z0mb13ta11ahase]

@@Bobtubeau what defines good in your mind?

[@randybobandy9828]

@Z0mb13ta11ahase energy density( by weight and volume) while also putting out a good amount of power. Charge life cycle is a important thing too. Energy density is the number one thing for vehicles.

[@Z0mb13ta11ahase]

@@randybobandy9828 specifically for vehicles, if its cheaper than Li batteries but takes up more space for long term storage id say that other options would be better, do you agree?

[@randybobandy9828]

@@Z0mb13ta11ahase yes. Cost/safety/charge cycles are most important for a home. It can be huge as long as it's cheap and lasts 20-30 years

[@MrDjoppio]

So the cost of these innovative battery storages is $52 kW/h. Nuclear is ~$160 MW/h and solar/wind is 40MW/h. I can't see this equation working for intermittent renewables. Nuclear is so much more expensive, but when you factor storage, it is a drop in the bucket. This is accounting for all, including handling all nuclear waste. I cannot see the economical incentive to replace fossil with intermittent renewables, maybe we should be focusing on nuclear as a first step while we work on cheeper storage?

[@mateusbmedeiros]

As always, the worst part of your videos is seeing so much cool stuff to be hyped about while knowing it's still not production ready and so we'll have to wait a bit to see it in action.

[@davidturner645]

You can buy redflow batteries now... (gen 2.5 rather than gen 3 I believe though)

[@richardburman6045]

The Gelion battery interests me for off-grid and RV house battery applications.

[@Cyruscosmo]

Well, I hope things change soon as I have been trying to get hold of a Redflow battery set for over two years now. The reps have told me a few times that they were not seeking a market in the US. I hope that has changed. I will be starting the build phase of my new shop/home in a couple years and hope to have the units available to install in my new home. Otherwise, I am going to install an Edison battery bank. I am going for a net zero/off-grid setup to retire in.

[@rickytorres9089]

How you gonna do that when just about anywhere in the US obiligates you are tied into the grid?

[@Cyruscosmo]

@@rickytorres9089 I have not seen anything that obligates me to buy power from the grid. The property I am working on at the moment has no power/water/sewer or road. I will be installing a well, a drain field, solar with backup batteries, and a generator for emergencies. If your property is financed then yes you have to because someone (bank/insurance) else has an interest in your property. If you pay for everything upfront then no you don't have to hook into the grid.

[@JacobProbasco]

@13:44 for downsides. -zinc buildup similar to tin-whiskers(manageable) -large form factors None the less, sexy video on the details.

[@DihelsonMendonca]

I LOVE 💕 these battery new technologies videos. As an electronic engineer, my dream since childhood is to create the eternal battery. This dream began when my toy's batteries were often dead. It should have some way to keep batteries to run almost forever, at least for many many years. And very compact. 💥💥💥

[@JericoJopio]

Hey Matt! As a Filipino consumer who is acquainted with carbon-zinc, alkaline, and lithium-ion batteries, I was pleasantly surprised to hear that a zinc-bromide type battery has been existing for 137 years. However, it was not even mentioned in our high school science classes here in the Philippines. Anyway, thank you so much for the video presentation. I really hope such zinc-bromide battery technology will be gradually re-introduced in the global market.🇵🇭😉☺️🔋🔌

[@lindseyhatfield9017]

I think these Flow batteries have a big future as a safe fixed storage solution and would love to see Australia carry out large scale installation and trial of both of these solutions. If this works out we have a solution for flow batteries in fixed storage releasing the Lithium batteries for vehicles. This should bring down the cost of the batteries as there is another option.

[@brendanmichaelwelsh6260]

I've been a Shareholder in Red Flow for about 10 years, Still waiting for them to turn a buck.

[@vitordelima]

There are flow batteries suitable for mobile storage, such as Metal-Air Flow batteries.

[@ArandelaGriffe]

The principle of Flowa Batteries are great but ZnBr is not good. It's a lot cheaper because Zn and Bromine are under 5$ per Kg when Va is around 40$. But as Math too quickly mention, Bromine used in BFR (Brominated flame retardant) is Toxic, Prure bromine is Extremely Toxic Class 5 on 6. As Student I had to work with bromine because it's a easy reactant in chemistry but it's toxicty is around Arsenic or LSD. In terms of chemistry it is easy to use, it may be present in some natural compounds but Arsenic too... As the CDC state no bromine-containing compounds is used anymore in any US drugs. Bromine due to BFR/electonics wastes in plastic products are becoming a widespread problem since Bromine compound CANNOT be extracted from platics and they diluated them in "fresh plastic" to be under the legal norm. A lot of Childs toys contaminated by Bromine have caused mass scandal; Less than 15% platics are bromine free. ZnFe, Vanadium or metal are not cheap but they are safer; This is why ZnBr were not a good choice in the past and having a better sealing tech do not assure me that the new batteries will be correctly recycled, mainly the Plastic part that are in contact of a bromined solution 24/24. Edited : correct some mispelling

[@mikebenstead7600]

Greetings from Australia, Matt, I'm hoping we're getting one step closer, en masse, to the up-take of renewable energy storage. However, If you have the time, space, know-how, climate and commitment required to do all the right things: harvest your own rainwater, grow your own vegetables, raise chickens, rabbits and ducks for protein, buy other necessities in compostable packaging, make bio-gas and compost from your garden and kitchen waste, have a chemical toilet and have no requirement for the utilities and services that are available you still have to pay "availabililty charges" for water supply, garbage collection, etc so local governments can get paid to do nothing. We are already paying hundreds of dollars each year to our local council for multiple bins to separate our recyclables but most of it still goes to landfill. We pay an extra 20c for recycling of bottles and cans to receive a 10c refund yet most of that still goes to landfill. It's all administration, pretense, fraud and corruption on a grand scale by bureaucrats to manipulate the green vote and keep their jobs. As we get closer to energy self-sufficiency at home I expect our corrupt governments will bring in unfathomable laws enabling an "availability charge" for power to prop up the poles and wires that they have sold or want to sell ("privatise") to foreign investors for billions of dollars that we, the people, will never see. Redflow and others: This would greatly hinder the up-take of home storage of renewable energy and the ROI on your R&D investment. Environmentalists: Wake up and watch this space. Governments: Don't you even think about it!

[@dannylujan3619]

Not good down near Canberra this week..a turbine on 🔥 fire.. Backwards movement and company does not use recycled parts or materials.all homes should have solar panels 30 year's ago

[@jasonwidegren3211]

I’m a big fan of zinc-bromine batteries. Cheap, safe, no critical minerals, simple manufacturing. What’s not to like? Full disclosure: I’m invested in Eos Energy Enterprises (EOSE), a US-based company developing Zn-Br batteries for stationary storage.

[@boxlessthinker1973]

An excellent and well-explained video Matt! You find ways to explain complex technology to those of us without an EE degree. Thank you. Sounds promising for use downstream of renewables in both large scale and home/office backup.

[@bigclint2487]

How scalable are redox batteries? Can you have one in your house that has say two 50 gallon tanks on the sides with a "reactor/reaction" component in the middle. Can you then put 2 reactors that feed on the shared tanks for higher output. Do you need multiple small self contained units or can you built one large unit that works more like a small power plant? Sounds like there is a lot of potential in this tech.

[@johnmcnulty6171]

Given Australia owns the largest zinc reserves worldwide - an estimated 69 million metric tons, and is surrounded by sea water; zinc-bromide batteries make a huge amount of sense for Australia. The abundance of natural resources for this technology could be a boon for its own energy security.

[@zetoboogaloo8802]

As well as an economical venture

[@gregorymalchuk272]

How could they ever gear up to produce them when electricity costs north of 28¢ per kWh? The materials would have to be carted overseas for refining and production of batteries.

[@xxxBradTxxx]

@@gregorymalchuk272 maybe they should replace their coal plants with SMRs, GE has a design already approved my the US nuclear commission. Australia has a lot of uranium.

[@RICxXxMoto]

You have a lot of videos on batteries of the future and Im wondering if you have ever looked into Zinc-air batteries and how you think they stack up against other battery technologies of the future. Thanks

[@ShadowDrakken]

What's their cold tolerance look like? With the one battery being built in existing lead acid packaging, do they work as replacements for standard car batteries? Good for marine uses?

[@antilogism]

Our house backup UPS is AGM lead-calcium so this seems like a great fit here. Large-scale corporate UPS are often banks of flooded lead-calcium. Forklifts, scissor-lifts and long-life transportation seem like a fit too.

[@JCRoberts]

Niche companies have always had a hard time braking in. If the stats that you show hold up they may have a shot I think. We saw haw the battery did in the heat but haw dos it do in the cold. That will be a big deciding factor. One of the reasons that lead acid has been the contender for so long is the wide range of temp that it can work in.

[@Rojoke]

You mentioned they would not be suitable for mobile use. Would that be true for sailboats where weight and space would be a concern but maybe not quite so much? One of the big concerns with lithium on sailboats is fire.

[@mightymouse2024]

You might want Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries for your boat rather than Lithium-ion inflammable ones.

[@Rojoke]

@@mightymouse2024 thanks, I’ll ask around. I had not heard of them.

[@GlenTakkenberg]

@@Rojoke They're usually described as LFP. The made in China Tesla model 3 uses a CATL made LFP battery. Lots of demonstrations of them piercing an LFP cell and it not bursting into flames.

[@BigGuy8059]

I have a VERY efficient energy storage battery: Water! Use intermittent electricity from wind or solar to desalinate sea water, and store the water in tanks or reservoirs for later use. The "energy storage" is the grid power you don't have to use to run the desalination. This technique is perfect for storing that energy because such a "battery" has no storage inefficiency. To increase the storage capacity, just make a bigger reservoir. Or use the empty ones we have now.

[@TheJesusFreeke]

They should! Lots and lots of upsides! Yes one of the ones you mentioned looks like it has enough capacity and output for home use. 10kWh would be great! And $150 per kWh? Wow!

[@Munvo]

I absolutely separated out in my mind that the advertiser only sponsored their specific advertisement in the video. /s

[@PreybirdMKII]

The Gelion batteries are poised to hopefully replace lead-acid applications, with a very real possibility of being a 1:1 replacement and not needing any advanced circuitry like Lithium does. I have also read that the RedFlow batteries can have the liquids recycled and essentially cleaned for re-use. They can also sit near indefinitely at any state of charge without the usual degrading. I was very keen to get one in a home solar setup, but RedFlow is pursuing the large scale market more than home (at least here in Australia). But still very exciting technologies!

[@stevethomson6900]

The Gelion batteries look like a great opportunity for replacing lead acid batteries in stationary off-grid solar applications. Particularly if they have more energy density than lead acid, but are not as costly as lithium-ion.

[@GenghisKhanrad]

Please do a video on the recent development on net-positive nuclear fusion! Your ability to simply explain complex topics would be very welcome on this momentous milestone. Thank you, Matt!

[@michiganengineer8621]

If these do take off, both for grid scale and home (both off-grid and hybrid) it would at least free up lithium production for mobile use. You show that they can handle higher temperatures at least as well as a properly maintained LiFePO4 battery but, how well do they handle COLD? Pretty sure the Redflow at least would need to be kept (even if not being cycled) at a temperature above freezing

[@808yorkie]

Not gonna be the same freezing temp as water but idm

[@stephentroyer3831]

I would feel much more comfortable with a Zink Bromine over Lithium Ion as a home backup solution. It's worth some extra space to get the bulletproof safety. Especially if it's installed inside the house.

[@randybobandy9828]

Lifepo4 is pretty bulletproof already. You can cut them open with a saw and they won't catch fire.

[@danser_theplayer01]

The batteries are one of the issues I have with people claiming that electric cars are "super duper mega environmentally friendly".

[@linmal2242]

You forgot to mention that Lithium batteries for Grid Storage are competing for raw materials with the electric car industry! This will increase the inflationary pressure on them as the electric car industry scales up. It will probably be a LOT cheaper to use a different chemistry for Grid Storage applications like Zinc-Bromine than using precious Li-ion materials that are much more valuable to go into cars, delivery vans, buses and trucks!

[@revparisking]

I have to say I really like the Gelion battery concept but I'm liking it more for home storage solutions. I say this because from what I've read about gravity battery systems. That's the way I think we should be investing more time looking into. But I also agree 100% with what you say. There is going to be, and has to be, a combination of solutions if we are going to do this right. Just like the tackling of the renewable energy situation. Oh, and love the video. I watch every time I see you come up.

[@808yorkie]

Renewable energy is a scam. Nuclear is the only way to go to reduce carbon AND have enough to power the grid

[@ProlificInvention]

I still think Ni-Fe batteries (Edison Batteries) may play a role in the future as they develop hydrogen gas very efficiently during charging, they also can last 40 years and modern modifications can provide exceptional efficiency as a renewable battery. Also the fact they use readily available common materials that are quite safe and cheap makes them worth another look.

[@alanhat5252]

Nickel & Iron are the 2 most common metals in the solar system, unfortunately nickel isn't so common on Earth. (Asteroid mining perhaps?) I like NiFe, they're tough, reliable & easily recycled, but weight/Watt-hour they're nothing like as good as Li-ion. They're still used as propulsion batteries in submarines & used to be used in forklifts & local-delivery vehicles like milkfloats though lead-acid took over decades ago & now delivery vehicles at least are going over to Li-ion.

[@alanhat5252]

slingshoting asteroids into low Earth orbit then just nudging them down from there seems cheap & simple, plus would collect some of the millions of pieces of shrapnel in orbit.

[@amdreallyfast]

Could you clarify your cost and temperature figures? I got a bit lost. Cost: @8:20 Study found that cost Vanadium Reflux Flow battery is about $124/kWh, and a Zinc Bromide system is about $8/kWh @8:35 Study on the materials cost: Zinc Bromide won out at the cheapest at $153/kWh, which is far lower than Vanadium's $491/kWh @11:05 Cost of system integration for lithium and vanadium is $42-$52/kWh, and the cost of Zinc Bromine is between $10-$18/kWh So...how much does it cost? Temperature: @12:36 An experiment showed the Gelion battery still managing to (mostly) operate while on top of a 700C hot plate @12:48 The Endure's upper limit being about 50C How could it's upper limit be 50C and yet still manage to operate at 700C? I've missed something. Could you clarify these figures?

[@silvergreylion]

In the video, almost right after each other, both $153 and $8 per kWh figures for Zn-Br RFBs are stated. Did the price per kWh really drop that much in just one year?

[@mhiggin1]

My understanding is this is just referring to the raw materials costs for the critical minerals. Zinc and bromine are both relatively cheap and abundant, versus lithium, cobalt, etc which are less abundant and therefore a lot more expensive

[@macjavflix]

The zinc-bromide might be good for homes and “power walls”

[@Rigger82]

Curious. If they have the same format as lead acid batteries and so many more cycles, why hasn’t the automotive battery industry converted or already looking at this as a replacement for all the existing ICE and lead acid applications? If cheaper and more effective, it would seem to be one hell of a use case and existing market to upgrade.

[@justletmelistthese]

size and security for cars, they won't survive rough handling, let alone crashes.

[@douglee2438]

I found another article on the Gelion battery. Seems it has a slow discharge rate. It can’t produce the amps to start an engine.

[@contrawise]

Do they have the same surge abilities as lead acid batteries?

[@joda7697]

Zink bromide sounds amazing, because you don't _need_ very high energy density (by weight or volume) for grid scale applications. What you need, is for them to be as robust as they can be: withstanding temperature variations, withstanding a lot of cycles, and being made from materials that are as risk free to the environment as possible, both in production as well as during operation and eventual decommission.

[@yogiberraslovechild3080]

How do these compare to Edison style iron-nickel batteries? Long life on those.

[@davidturner645]

Ni-fe batteries have low efficiency and high self-discharge, but very long lifetimes. I believe they are also more expensive per kwh than redflow batteries at the moment.

[@tomasbeblar5639]

When you make comparisons to lithium ion batteries, can you also provide the specs for Li batteries please? I think very few people have those stats memorized, so it's hard to compare new tech vs old tech without providing numbers for both. Thank you. Love your videos.

[@NeilBlanchard]

Matt, do you know of any home battery systems that use zinc-bromide gel cells? In particular, here in the US?

[@mojoneko8303]

I would be a lot more comfortable having a technology like the zinc/bromide battery bank in my basement for electrical storage than an L-Ion battery bank. I would be far less concerned about a catastrophic failure burning my house down or spewing toxic fumes throughout the house. Since it's stationary bank they aren't going anywhere so the greater weight per watt wouldn't be a big issue. Thanks for the video.

[@Hendriksys]

It's nice that you make some temperature comparisons for the use case in Australia but will it also work in subzero environments like Norway or Canada??

[@DrJambonius]

Near zero, those battery would be fine. Even though I don't have the exact numbers, those kind of electrolytes might keep water from freezing at least up to -20 celcius, but below that, maybe the producer of the battery could answer. In Canada and Norway, they might have to insulate the battery just in case temperature would hit -40 or -50 once in a while.

[@WildRapier]

I used to work at a chlor-alkali plant which is oddly close to your description of a flow battery but in reverse. I always wondered if the reaction could be pushed the other way to produce electricity as the cell stacks alone drew 3 MW. I give you the sodium hypochlorite/Hydrogen acid battery!!! What could go wrong???? I had to put that out there...having seen what goes wrong. Have to watch those halogens....they're like colorful dragons.

[@ethanfields1633]

Hey Matt, great video! I've used your channel a lot for research into sustainable home energy models. Do you think a neighborhood power-grid using a combination of solar and wind is feasible with battery technology today? My goal is to build affordable neighborhoods that also act as local power suppliers to the grid, but have been stuck on how to store the power in a safe and cost-effective manner.

[@GradyHouger]

As soon as a battery tech is cost effective for grid storage, all utilities will want to use them.

[@monkeywrench2800]

I've done a few Volkswagon Beatle EV conversions in the past, and would have loved to had Gelion available at the time, rather than tearing out the back seat to pack in lead acid batteries (as well as packing the front trunk). Looks like these would have fit under the seat and got the whole job done. There may yet be a portable/mobile application here....

[@gregorymalchuk272]

How long ago were you doing this? What kind of motors were you using? What kind of motor controllers and battery charge controllers were you using?

[@monkeywrench2800]

@@gregorymalchuk272 It was before there were kits built to get the job done (20+ yrs ago). My buddy sourced all the parts, so I couldn't begin to tell you what the stuff was, as I was just the install and wiring tech. There was always some issue we had to find a workaround to resolve... fun times!

[@alisavas9526]

Great episode. It's encouraging to see many such developments. When scaled up, if key factors such as cost, benefit, safety and environmental impact square then they will find their use in the real world. Horses for courses, for sure.

[@ucantSQ]

When I set up my solar, I used LiFePO batteries. I was looking depth of discharge, charging efficiency, cycle life, and low toxicity. If these ZnBr batteries become commercially available, maybe I'll switch over after my LiFePOs are dead.

[@halnineooo136]

It still amazes me the amount of distinct elements we have to play with on Earth with endless chemical compounds and materials, all while the immense majority of matter in the universe is hydrogen.

[@edwarddhondt]

One piece of information is missing in this very good video: what are the discharge figures? Lead batteries can provide less amps than Li-Ion batteries. What about Zinc-Bromide? Are they to be seen as long small discharges or are they capable of short heavy discharges? Seen the configuration, I think they can they can handle short heavy discharges. But, does this influence the zinc migration?

[@badrinair]

I always though the redflow battries are great. The liquids are natural fire retardants. Only mechanical failures of the pumps and values is what concerns me . But we have pressure pumps running at home for years reliably

[@Teukka72]

Another battery chemistry that is old but still worth considering is Ni-Fe (Nickel-Iron). Energy density is lousy, but well designed, maintained, and usage and they last for a very long time. I believe that there are some very old cells still in use.

[@theatheistpaladin]

You want to talk about Zinc Bromide but I want to talk about Sodium Bromide, but everyone like "NaBro!"

[@matthewunderwood6142]

I think the cheapest, largest, and safest (and funnest !?!) Energy storage device (AKA battery) are the large reservoir of water in the lakes that are in line with Hydroelectric dams. The potential energy stored in these reservoirs is enormous, and provides recreational potential that no other energy storage device does.

[@jopo7996]

Regardless of which new battery technology you show us, there are always negative and positive posts.

[@Friedbrain11]

I hope they do become major storage units everywhere. They are better overall and cheaper so that's a double win. Guess I'll have to wait for the solid-state batteries for my pickup:(

[@markmuir7338]

I'd love to have these for a home battery. The cost (and fire risk) of LiMC makes seasonal storage impractical. But Redox Flow batteries scale up pretty well - especially those with storage tanks.

[@chuckkottke]

Iron is the safest from an availability perspective, and zinc is found in sulfide mineral deposits with serious environmental hazards surrounding the mining, containment, and reclamation aspects. When seeing the big picture, I believe we need to focus on energy efficiency and more common elements and molecular structures to solve our energy storage needs. Pumped air storage, thermal storage, and other methods of storing electrical energy are being utilized without the hazardous chemicals aspect.

[@rklauco]

Soon, any type of battery will be viable. World is slowly waking up, I can see it in housing market - solar becomes quite frequent. Battery makes, sometimes, more sense than solar thanks to high/low tarrifs (faster ROI), and cheap (although a bit bulky) battery would be a no-brainer for any home owner. Find a large place under the stairs, fill it up with batteries and there you go...

[@zaczane]

The chemistry wars will absolutely devastate several of these battery types. Probably leaving only 1-3 types.

[@MyMy-tv7fd]

hey Matt, thankyou for adding the word 'intermittent' before the word 'renewable' in your intro, reality is what it is mate

[@SamuHell782]

1885...? Dr. Emmett Brown I´ll bet !