Why This NASA Battery May Be The Future of Energy Storage

[@UndecidedMF]

Are Nickel-Hydrogen Batteries the future of energy storage? Go to brilliant.org/Undecided/ and get 20% off your subscription and a 30 day free trial with Brilliant.org! NOTE: There's a sync issue you may notice around 5:00. It's a KZbin re-render issue that should be resolved shortly. Sorry about that. If you liked this, check out Is Small, Fast, & Cheap the Future of Nuclear Energy? kzbin.info/www/bejne/gmSUoatsp7ZgrLM

[@carsgunsandguitars]

I gave a presentation on nickle-hydrogen stationary storage for solar for a class assignment as a young mechanical engineering student in college in 33 years ago.

[@anothermike4825]

Material science is so exciting considering the new construction methods of catalysts and AI. The biggest advances in the future will come from AI developments and if mankind can keep from killing itself, we have a bright future. Or it could be like Player Piano by Kurt Vonnegut.

[@MrBadbonesaw]

I would like a price comparison of wh/kg for this tech and redox flow battery or the other rust batteries? If the size is not a concern I would think flow batteries would scale much better and not require Platinum or palladium. Also compressing Hydrogen makes these batteries only 60% efficient due to the energy needed to super cool hydrogen or running a compressor to push the psi to a 5000 psi level. liquid flow batteries are closer to 80-90% efficient. I like the options being tried but can't we just scale up something that already checks the boxes for grid storage and doesn't use precious metals.

[@earthenscience]

Oh great. A new battery that has less energy density, and is more heavy. This battery, the Future of energy storage? Maybe for large buildings only. "Somebody shot it with a rifle and it didn't explode"... Somehow I doubt this, how could it not explode and not even have any fragments exited out? Sounds impossible

[@GeoffroiB]

@UndecidedMF Around 5:08, the video and sound go out of sync.

[@HammerOn-bu7gx]

For the record, 1,500 psi tanks are not that high pressure. I've worked directly with 15,000 psi tanks and know of 32,000 psi tanks in regular usage. There are also specialty tanks at even higher pressures.

[@mekkler]

The SCUBA tanks in my closet are at 3000 psi.

[@rfwillett2424]

Look it up, those sorts of pressure tanks appear to be pretty standard industrial gear. The expense is probably in getting the tanks as light as possible for space applications.

[@theheresiarch3740]

Yeah, even just a regular old SCUBA tank is between 3,000 and 4,000 PSI, depending on the type of tank.

[@mediumsmoke7823]

True. Average oxygen or argon cylinder for welding holds 4300psi. As a person using the metric system 1500psi sounded like alot at first until i converted it to bars xD

[@SodiumEx]

Correct. Paintball air tanks are 4500 psi. So 1500 isn't much at all

[@neilgraham8020]

One side benefit that would come from these being used for mass grid storage, would be the lithium not used by the grid, freeing it up for other uses.

[@Luziferne]

Thats a VERY good point, which would make the transformation to only electric Vehicles that much faster

[@teardowndan5364]

There are over 20 alternatives to lithium batteries for grid-scale energy storage from mechanical to chemical, just got to pick whatever makes the most sense for a given location. More options rarely hurts. Betting everything on a single tech is usually a bad idea in the first place.

[@solarcabin]

Other major benefits of nickel hydrogen batteries: The hydrogen can be produced right from the excess wind and solar power when the batteries are not in use and the hydrogen compressed using that same excess energy. If we can get people to switch to electric cars we would not need platinum for catalytic converters so there would be more for these batteries.

[@DavidM2002]

And, to further your point, the world won't have to be beholden to the likes of China who are trying to dominate the lithium market. Let's leave China holding the bag on that one.

[@h8GW]

While I'm not nominally anti-EV, I still don't believe EVs can replace all our road transport and we really should be focusing more on developing biofuels and electric long-distance freight trains. But, alas, Elon's S3XY antics draw in the investor money...

[@CF542]

It amazes me that so many technologies we use today were largely created or perfected over 50 years ago

[@wyattnoise]

It's called the invention secrecy act of 1954.

[@astropythagorean]

@@wyattnoise The Invention Secrecy Act (1951) applies to technology that represents a national security threat. In the last 5 years, there have been 366 new secrecy orders. However, none of them were from NASA. NASA tends to be much more open about its patents and in many cases will license their use or even release them to the public domain. In 2016, they released over 50 patents to the public domain.

[@ekimeno3061]

It's not often talked about but innovation has been stifled by "profiteering" over the last 50 years

[@timtruett5184]

Men were smarter back then.

[@suezbell1]

@@wyattnoise Patents a factor in use limitations, too?

[@silentwf]

With so many grid scale battery technology videos you've made, could you create a video where you summarize and follow up on their deployment (or lack of)?

[@ABaumstumpf]

That video would mostly be "They still promise to deliver X, just 5 years later" - as with nearly every ""groundbreaking"" wishfulthinking he is talking about.

[@idontknow4350]

Most of these technologies saw no deployment at all, so it would be quite hard. Unfortunately all these technologies have mayor drawbacks or are simply expensive in one way or another. There is also some potential left in Li-ion technology to juice out, so even with decent research interest, money doesn't follow.

[@SpencerHHO]

Most of them were just press releases reformatted into a video. There rarely is any actual breakthroughs and most of the tech is just an iterative improvement or has glaring issues that other youtubers have pointed out. I think he means well but if he ever gets something right it's buy accident lol.

[@InvestmentJoy]

For reference the capacity of these batteries is about 20% of currently available lithium ion batteries. The next generation that LG, Tesla, Panasonic, etc is gearing up for will be even worse. Would love to see real, firm numbers on these : cost per kwh, infrastructure required to host (the battery arrays are HUGE vs lithium ion), self discharge and mitigation issues, and so on. Theres no free lunch, and there's a reason these have been looked over for so long.

[@mothhut8637]

I like lithium batteries because they pop in my mouth

[@albinoviper2876]

$2 billion/MW hr is the cost

[@shelbyseitzinger927]

I'm not a huge fan on compressed hydrogen in my pocket regardless.

[@Keenath]

@@shelbyseitzinger927 Nobody is suggesting using these for portable power.

[@shelbyseitzinger927]

@@Keenath I am, I want more canister and cartridge tech, the future should look dope

[@TheDesertBlizzard]

This is the first battery tech I have ever heard of that actually seems to solve the problems with grid scale energy storage aside from water/gravity storage.

[@johnmcho]

Redox flow is another. But it uses large amounts of Vanadium, which is not currently mass produced

[@brianzmek7272]

There are non vanadium redox flow options but all the ones I know of have other major issues like highly disimillar chemicals in each tank making mixing in the flow units an issue. There are also carbon salt options but they have issues as well.

[@johnmcho]

@@brianzmek7272 We should get Matt to make another video.

[@joshuakelly2665]

@@brianzmek7272 As someone who works with molten salts almost daily at work, I'll tell you that sending salts through pipes and pumps sucks. lots of issues, lots maintenance, and if you loose flow/temp, then all your lines salt out and you have to melt it out everywhere and start over.

[@markpashia7067]

Actually sounds safer and be able to be used anywhere when compared to pumped hydro storage. See Tom Salk Mountain dam failure some years ago in Missouri. Not every place has the elevation needed for that either.

[@christopherleubner6633]

These nickel hydrogen batteries have all the benefits of durability, but they suffer from high self discharge and low voltage. Got to play with a few of them made by Space Data corporation. The cool thing about them is that they can take overcharging well, highly recommended for mission-critical solar use. They contain lots of platinum and palladium, but they do show up at surplus auctions occasionally confused with high voltage components.

[@benjamin_markus]

these aspects were completely and strangely missing from the vid

[@jonny4233]

The fast self-discharge rate of 80% per month I found on a random website works out to 1.3% per half day. Grid scale battery storage is supposed to be used overnight when the sun isn't shining, so maybe it isn't such a big deal when used alongside solar?

[@thydimov9909]

But weren`t they supposed to last 30 years in a spacecraft, how can they have that quick self-discharge

[@Trevokable]

@@thydimov9909 because they are being recharged by solar panels.

[@ProlificInvention]

​@@jonny4233Great point

[@g.docswift9292]

I worked at the company that made all the Ni-H2 batteries for the NASA projects you mentioned (ISS, Mars rovers, Hubble). Several years ago, that entire department shut down. They no longer build those batteries at all. The Space division is now Li-ion exclusively.

[@Streamcatcher]

How come? If the H2 version seems superior?

[@g.docswift9292]

Cost, primarily, but also weight. Li-ion weighs less for the required amp-hours compared to Ni-H2. Weight matters a lot, because it directly impacts launch costs.

[@brettbuck7362]

@@Streamcatcher It is not superior in most regards, particularly for aircraft and spaceflight applications, it is heavier for a given capacity.

[@paulgovan3507]

So how do li-ion cells cope with extremes of freezing-cold to very hot temperatures in space? Paul G

[@g.docswift9292]

It varies with the satellite and its mission/orbit. Some of them insulate the batteries and place them strategically. Others have temperature control systems (which must use some of the battery capacity to operate).

[@joshiwoshiluz]

I'm 16 and I'm working on getting a Nasa internship next summer & I am trying to also get into MIT. I want to study Chemical engineering and Renewable energy research to go into a line of work focusing on things like this. I'm happy to see this video because it's just confirming my interests and making me more excited for this career.

[@finddeniro]

Be True...Assume Nothing.. I had fun learning the basics in technical school ..1980s.. Don't Lie .Steal or Cheat.. Keep Smiling..Shine 0n..

[@sigmasquadleader]

@@finddeniro Thanks, Weird Uncle.

[@Svevid]

did you get that internship?

[@joshiwoshiluz]

@@Svevid sadly no, my 4 AP classes have me constantly procrastinating and it's been rly busy. I am doing an early college program with a local science and technology college, and a summer internship with the same college. The NASA internships were either too far to go to in person or 100% online which is not appealing to me at all. Thanks for asking though.

[@Svevid]

@@joshiwoshiluz I get it, Had the procrastinating issue myself. Best of luck on your endeavors anyways. life leads you sometimes to places that you're thankfull for later on :)

[@lavapix]

A miniature version of one in the downtube of a mountain bike and it's good for 30 years. It could outlast 3-4 bikes.

[@kennethng8346]

I'm glad to see that not everyone is pursuing lithium, other chemistries need to be explored to see where they can be used. I see enormous potential to combine these with renewables to store the excess energy and to make renewables more reliable.

[@Trifler500]

Sodium-Ion has been touted as an alternative to lithium-ion in EVs, which is good.

[@JohnR31415]

And they’re pretty close - already being used in EVs

[@joekuhn2220]

@@Trifler500 Definitely. Also iron air batteries is a great alternative. Energy density doesn’t matter as much since it’s for storage.

[@runed0s86]

Dual carbon batteries have been invented and are used by japan's military. They're 400x as energy dense as lithium.

[@mnomadvfx]

That's a giant misnomer. Having adequate storage doesn't make renewables more reliable at all. It just means that power unused during peak generation doesn't get wasted. If there is minimal output (low wind/solar) and a high draw from the grid then no amount of storage is going to help with that. This is one of the fundamental problems with renewables sadly. It means that you need to rely on multi area power distribution like international HVDC power lines in order to take advantage of when other countries have low draw, but high storage.

[@KAT-pi3pk]

Matt, this is one of your better videos. The fact that Enervenue is building a giga factory shows that this is not a pipe dream. Glad to see that the factory is in the US.

[@thepunisherxxx6804]

Anyone else tired of these "content creators" reading a reddit post and then presenting it like they know what they're talking about? This guy has numerous videos from years ago with "X is going to change the world forever", yet years later nothing happened. Its such clickbait low effort time wasting content. Guy has no insight into any of this tech and is just parroting articles.

[@Karadauk]

Having worked with High Vacuum systems in the past, our biggest problem was from Hydrogen flowing through the steel walls of the containers. The vacuum chambers were fabricated from thick steel with a longitudinal grain and liquid nitrogen cooling to minimise the flow of hydrogen atoms from the steel. At the sort of pressures you mention here, isn't there significant long-term pressure loss through the walls of the containment vessels?

[@fuselpeter5393]

You think a guy running a fantasy "science" channel would answer your critical questions?

[@oktc68]

Exactly. This dude is deceptive at best. Many of the things shown here are hilarious, remember the "CD's" hydrogen storage discs to power your car? Best laugh I'd had until his hastily and shoddily made pseudo retraction/ it's not my fault I was duped I know nothing of science video came out shortly after.

[@FourthWayRanch]

Monel

[@Ramschat]

Considering the batteries have been used in satellite upwards of 15 years, they at least hold out long enough to beat lithium ion batteries in terms of durability

[@jameswhatsit]

That may explain why the pressure vessels look to be designed with valves on the ends, maybe some sort of "top up" required from time to time

[@clanharris4]

FYI, the air-conditioning unit on your home typically utilizes 250 - 500psi. 1500 is alot but compared to what we already use, maybe not so much.

[@rileymannion5301]

I use 3500 psi argon bottles daily, it's not that dangerous if you know what you're doing

[@fireraid]

I think it depends on the context of the application of these. Sure, you'll be using a big argon tank for welding, but also, you use propane tanks for your grill... I think as long as it's contained properly, you should be good.

[@brianx2504]

Carbon fiber air tanks for paintball are rated for 4500 psi. 1500 is not a lot and can easily be worked with.

[@SuperBlackReality]

Hydrogen is not your typical application gas, the small molecular size makes it prone to find any micro crack in a container to leak out.

[@fireraid]

@@SuperBlackReality likewise.

[@Eger7law011]

Once again a clear logical explanation of technological advancement where the catalyst chemicals will bring down cost. Matt has outlined a good number of positive aspects that are key in battery functionality over a 30 year life span. In a battery that is completely recyclable. A catalyst will be found that cuts cost further once it is proven.

[@Voltaic_Fire]

The lack of dendrites is by far the biggest advantage of these batteries, the impact on longevity can't be overstated. I wonder how many would be required to achieve home scale storage and how much increasing the pressure would help or hinder storage.

[@darrinbrunner6429]

I was thinking the same thing. If economies of scale get the price down, these could be built into a spot under the garage floor, for instance. Accessible in 30 years, but otherwise out of site, out of mind, just doing their job. Products could get rid of transformers for converting AC to DC when the "local power grid" supplies DC directly.

[@Voltaic_Fire]

@@darrinbrunner6429 Every home being able to generate and store its own energy, and maybe send excess power to those in need, is the dream. Energy independence for every home means energy independence for the country as a whole, and an end to the political pressure OPEC can put on us.

[@janami-dharmam]

@@Voltaic_Fire you are correct: the problem is less economical and more political. There is no will on the part of the government for more R&D and investment.

[@kevbu4]

@@darrinbrunner6429 Just to clarify terminology: AC - Alternating current DC - Direct current. Transformer - Converts AC Power from one voltage to another. Still AC power at both ends. Transformers work only with AC power. Inverter - Converts DC power to AC Power. Rectifier - Converts AC power to DC Power. Also, All main power grid distribution in the USA is in the form of Alternating Current. DC current is used primarily in small devices and motor vehicles, But is also generated by solar panels. Edit: I did some checking, and it seems that DC current is used for some of the longest stretches of high voltage transmission lines in the US power grid. But AC is used for more local applications because of being able to utilize transformers to step the voltage up and down at the source and receiving ends of the grid.

[@jessejayphotography]

@@Voltaic_Fire I've said it before. Energy storage, renewable energy and energy independence is a national security issue and should be treated as such with both time and money.

[@SnappyWasHere]

This is probably the best battery alternative you’ve showcased. Mainly because of safety, recycling, and longevity. I hope it takes off.

[@thepunisherxxx6804]

This guy has numerous videos from years ago with "X is going to change the world forever", yet years later nothing happened. Its such clickbait low effort time wasting content. Guy has no insight into any of this tech and is just parroting articles.

[@GammaRays10]

@@thepunisherxxx6804 are you new here? Do you not know how these things actually get researched and come to market?

[@joeyanglada1275]

L.T.O HAS THE SAME CHARACTERISTICS

[@michaelbuckers]

@@GammaRays10 You're putting way too much faith in a pop sci content at the end of a long ass retelling chain from the source material being infallible. Or in the source material being infallible for that matter. I hardly think that a catalytic material that doesn't includes extremely expensive rare earth minerals simply have escaped everyone's grasp for decades despite everyone's best efforts, until this guy showed up. So this to me smells like a particularly good snake oil pitch.

[@carholic-sz3qv]

@@thepunisherxxx6804this is actually a real battery that actually exist just like solar panels used in space industry which are also very expensive! Why can’t we find other less expensive materials alternatives to make those batteries or solar panels more affordable and mass producable on earth!?

[@Deathbound13]

There seems to be an audio desync around 5:06 (starting with "This stuff has to be handled responsibly."), but maybe its just me since I don't see other comments talking about it

[@PopeGoliath]

I have it as well

[@nickelsey9864]

Me too

[@BoobooCOBRA]

it amazes me that we still run on oil, coal, gas and nuclear energy. Paul Pantone, Nikola Tesla, Dr. Andrija Puharich, Eugene Mallove, Stanley Meyer, Thomas Henry Moray, Brian O'Leary, Andrew Michrowski and so much more...

[@IA52342]

1) these are not really available for us to buy for our garage backup battery today 2) iron-air batteries are not yet available - but are being prototyped! 3) rust particles swimming in a benevolent electrolyte versus high pressure hydrogen - is it such a tough choice? 4) So, Matt - how about a Think where you compare these two technologies head-to-head on every criteria? That would be domething to Think on, eh?

[@adamraymer-brown6566]

This plant is 3 miles from where I live. Been excited to see it happen

[@Fummy007]

The ISS's nickel-hydrogen batteries have since been replaced with Lithium-ion, because they were getting to the end of their life span and the Li batteries could store twice as much charge for the same mass.

[@imho2278]

And the ISS is coming down in 2028, so L ion will work ok up till then. Plus the ISS is so full, it couldn't fit any large arrays.

[@pillepolle3122]

@@imho2278 its coming down? Then the earth will be destroyed!!

[@kaibe5241]

@JoaquinElf lmfao

[@nicoleibundgut534]

I think energy density is not the biggest problem for grid storages.

[@Logarithm906]

@@nicoleibundgut534 no, but high self discharge could be.

[@Real_MisterSir]

In terms of pressurized containers, 1500 psi is about the lowest level on consumer scale products. Any old scuba tank or other regular pressurized cannisters for various use are often double or triple that pressure level, and are produced in bulk for cheap. In terms of hydrogen production, massive strides are taken in producing green hydrogen (using renewable energy to produce hydrogen electrolysis and storage), and this infrastructure is being built at an international grid scale. It's expensive and hard to come by now at these quantities, but it's changing.

[@FreekHoekstra]

This is true, however, it’s important to note that hydrogen makes metals brittle, and so storing hydrogen at high-pressure is quite different than storing an oxygen nitrogen mix at high pressure. So I would say 1500 bars for hydrogen is quite high. Edit i meant 1500 psi not bars lol

[@samus4799]

​@@FreekHoekstraYeah, considering that 1500 bar is 21,750psi. 1 Bar=14.5psi

[@janami-dharmam]

Producing hydrogen by electrolysis is quite inefficient because for 2 kg of hydrogen 16 kg of oxygen is also produced and production of oxygen needs greater energy (very high overpotential for oxygen) and the market for oxygen is rather saturated.

[@camplethargic8]

@@janami-dharmam Medical-grade oxygen shortages were widespread around the world (India and Indonesia, for acute examples) during peak of COVID-19 pandemic.

[@paulramsey2000]

@@janami-dharmamunlike in fuel cells the hydrogen in this battery is not consumed so the source of the hydrogen isn't terribly important.

[@jerryodell1168]

The bigger problem with batteries is the consumer product rechargeable batteries. They need to be designed to be much safer and last way longer than they last today. Some devises have replaceable batteries which helps keep the devise in service longer. This does not deal with the problems with the batteries themself. Almost all of them end up in the trash and often end up in land fill making them environmentally bad. And if the battery is built in a devise, when the battery fails, the devise becomes trash.

[@D0li0]

I have one of these metal hydride tanks... It's slightly larger than a roll of quarters that stores 20litera of hydrogen. Bought it about two decades ago while evaluating hydrogen fuel cells. It's pretty neat, but a simple LiIon battery is way cheaper and easier.

[@ericfielding2540]

Great explanation about how the Nickel-Hydrogen batteries can be used in power storage. The hydrogen production part seems more easily managed than the need for Nickel, Platinum, and Palladium. The lack of maintenance is a important feature, and the low sensitivity to temperature is excellent!

[@CubbyTech]

Audio sync issues start at 5:08 - you may want to re-upload

[@valdius85]

That is great news. More ways of storing energy is needed. The closer to the source the better.

[@Mew178]

Yes bu it's also his 50th video of yet another battery technology that is yet again revolutionary and yet again will change everything. I've been reading about these since 2000. And the only one that changed anything was Lithium Ion that was in use back in 2000 as well.

[@acrocent9788]

@@Mew178 Frfr there was the vandanium redox, solid state, sulphur, hydro batteries, air batteries 😭 I can’t actually tell which battery is the best cause of this dude hyping up ever old or new thing

[@earthenscience]

@@Mew178 The boy who cried battery?

[@Mew178]

@@earthenscience Ahahahaha good way to put it

[@sjsomething4936]

@@Mew178 the fact that this one has a gigafactory set to open in 2024 makes it different. Nobody opens a factory that size without pre-orders from customers so this technology will be used in some application, probably many. Hopefully there will be a follow up to let viewers know where and how they get deployed. Also, he has videos on sodium ion batteries which are now being used in vehicles, produced by CATL which is the largest EV battery manufacturer in the world, so although perhaps many of the technologies don’t become commercially viable, others do. Probably part of the reason he calls the channel “Undecided”.

[@1N4007T]

One question that I have, is that if the catalyst composition is substituted for mass production, would these batteries still have a 30+ year lifespan?

[@Kangaroo-Bob]

For a guy who's 'undecided' you sure do hype up EVERY tech innovation you come across

[@PopeGoliath]

He can't decide what deserves the most hype! But for real though, it's nice learning about new *potential* developments. Just gotta take the claims and speculation with a healthy dose of skepticism.

[@juffurey]

I think people are finally starting to get sick of the hyperbole marketing

[@altGoolam]

Most People want to "believe". So to get the clicks, people need to be given a very shiny hook of a title. But the content is very fact based and critical.

[@Kangaroo-Bob]

@@altGoolam I'd say the title is very good but the content is very uncritical. Mostly praise instead of insight

[@ravisharma96]

😂😂 you are right. His every video is game changer technology.

[@syriuszb8611]

One thing that was missing from the video is charge/discharge efficiency. It only has 85% efficiency, while lithium-ion has close to 100%. I think it still could be useful, but on longer cycle, with lithium ion used daily, and nickel hydrogen battery for a rainy day. Literally.

[@carrdoug99]

If proven true, 83$ per kwh for this system vs the 312$ per kwh (2022) of stationary lithium ion storage is pretty compelling. 👍

[@stuart207]

Lithium is artificially high in price ATM. Demand....

[@Steamrick]

Mind you, if they do use the catalyst shown in the video, Cobalt isn't exactly a controversy-free metal, either, and using it at grid scale could case severe price spikes.

[@peabody3000]

@@stuart207 seems to me Li demand could multiply in just the next few years unless a real alternative hits the market.. EV's are just getting started

[@nickcollins1528]

They wanted 30 k for I think three batteries for my house when I got solar so we didn't get them and are going to wait till prices or technologies change

[@megan00b8]

Right, it makes sense that hydrogen cells would be good against bursting to flames when pierced because the hydrogen inside would also rapidly cool itself as it expands from such high pressure.

[@dluber1]

No - H2 has a negative Joule-Thomson coefficient and counterintuitively heats up as is it expands. But it won't generate sufficient heat to auto-ignite in air, unless a catalyst is present (um, like platinum). But this tech is basically a mashup of a metal hydride hydrogen storage tank and a fuel cell, neither of which has yet to go big, the economics and logistics aren't working. The main problem is hydrogen is mainly derived from petroleum, so it's still a fossil fuel.

[@eeman1335]

I'm remember designing portable devices that used Ni-Cd and NiMH batteries back in the mid to late 1990s as an EE working for a point-of-sale company. Once the Lithium cell came out, it trounced them in energy density and didn't seem to have the memory effect that was common with partial discharge cycles using Ni-Cd or Ni-MH.

[@Vousie]

Li-ion batteries are great for energy density, lack of memory effect, and ability to sustain very high discharge rates, but their flammability is a problem...

[@emuhill]

As far as I know only Ni-Cd has the memory effect. Which was a huge problem with them. Ni-MH don't suffer from that. Their big disadvantage is that they self discharge rather quickly. Refrigerating them does slow down that effect.

[@realflow100]

@@emuhill theres new low self discharge NIMH batteries that are not too far off from lithium ION. Still a fair choice for lower cost. and in variety of voltage outputs by having different number of cells in series. also the form factor. They also win in safety. not easy to puncture. and generally don't explode if abused.

[@bruceingalls7964]

My alkaline AA batteries in my electronic scale finally gave up, after 2 years. The scale turns on, when you step on it, then times out to save batteries. When I replaced with AA NiMH, the batteries die after 2 days. They recharge in 5 minutes, however. What gives?

[@atvtheory3151]

I have been reading about "new" battery technologies since the early 2000's. All of them sound great until they get to the part where they describe the fatal flaw that keeps them from widespread adoption. As this is an "old" technology being adapted to a new use, I'm hoping that this is a real product and not another battery technology that stays mostly in the lab.

[@markpashia7067]

One of the biggest stumbling blocks is how can utilities monetize the tech. Legacy utility companies have a vested interest in keeping power expensive. Seems like their lobbyists keep too much "in the lab".

[@Unethical.FandubsGames]

@@markpashia7067 "Legacy utility companies have a vested interest in keeping power expensive" This is true... but they can keep the cost to consumer high whilst reducing the cost of demand for rare elements and reducing the cost of maintenance. That said. Batteries are one of the most understood areas of power storage. There's no miracle battery. (at least not like some people are hoping for)

[@wewoweewoo]

@@markpashia7067 Thats not true they can make more money buy saving money your just hating to hate

[@AlanTheBeast100]

Scuba tanks (recreational) start the dive at 3000 PSI (200 bar) in aluminum tanks, so this should not be a big deal. Though embrittlement might be an issue with the H2 and some metal parts.

[@walkergrae]

Their secret recipe is likely proton-exchange membrane (PEM) also called polymer-electrolyte membrane. They're used in fuel cells to replace the platinum catalyst. I seem to recall Bollard Power Systems using them in fuel cells in the early 2000's.

[@AustiuNoMatterWho]

damn, Nasa figured out the battery tech i wanted 50 years ago

[@clockssugars5074]

Something people should keep in mind with that pressure number is that this is a nickel-hydrogen battery, not a hydrogen in a nickel tank battery. Under the right conditions (these), hydrogen basically forms an alloy with metals just like lithium would. Hydrogen metal on its own is a different story, but under high pressure you can kind of get a hydrogen metal alloy. Piercing the container can't be explosive then because the hydrogen still needs to move out of its metal structure to escape the container, which can't happen instantly.

[@vultureTX001]

does not long term (as in years) cause hydrogen embrittlement from leaking hydrogen in any pressurized tank?

[@clockssugars5074]

@@vultureTX001 The trick is that there isn't actually much free hydrogen in the tank. It's all tied up in the nickel metal structure, because the alloy is stable at that pressure.

[@vultureTX001]

@@clockssugars5074 Ok Thanks thanks that makes sense, I remember how much GE's SQUIDs had with helium leaks and even given the ( noble vs non)nature of the two still remembered gas storage issues

[@ericapelz260]

@@vultureTX001 Hydrogen emprittlement isn't a problem in most hydrogen gas systems, it's the mechanical connections, since hydrogen is the smallest atom, it can leak through the smallest gaps. Anything that is bolted together, along with valves becomes a issue long before diffusion comes into play.

[@AlbertMark-nb9zo]

Interesting. As far as non noble metal catalysts go, the huge advantage in a closed system like a battery is that you limit exposure. There was a problem with using novel materials in fuel cells in that the catalysts would be poisoned by exposure to external elements, which were common.

[@Tije.O]

A dutch company has developed a nickel / iron battery that produces hydrogen when it's fully charged, providing long term storage in the form of hydrogen and easy to switch on or off compared to traditional electrolyzers. Very nice concept, based on the Edison battery. The product has a cheesy name: Battolyser. There's a lot of movement / momentum for all these battery startups and innovations. Hope this kind of energy storage really takes off the coming years.

[@AlbertaGeek]

_"The product has a cheesy name: Battolyser"_ Sounds like something Batman would use. "Quick, Robin - to the Battolyser!"

[@janami-dharmam]

this is really attractive because high temp electrolysers can also act as fuel cells on reverse.

[@bmp72]

It’s Dutch, of course it has a cheesy name.

[@JLaurHughes]

Seems like the battery has quite the potential, especially if it can also be scaled smaller, not just upscaled.

[@wingracer1614]

no. Smaller applications you need higher energy density. Li-Ion are vastly superior. That's why most spacecraft have moved away from this to Li-Ion. Even with the downsides, the higher energy density is worth the costs of mitigating those downsides. The advantage of this is not it's performance. We already have better performing batteries the potential advantage of this is it's ability to be scaled up much cheaper and easier.

[@kataseiko]

My big question though is why we can't use capacitors for grid-scale energy storage. Yes, they discharge over time, but the grid won't require long-term storage and the losses within 24 hours are small enough to be ignored in the equation. After 30 years, they'll still hold 100% of capacity if they are kept in a clean environment.

[@keenan4389]

How’s the new home coming along? Would love to see more about it and the decisions you made!

[@damaddog8065]

The energy densities are in best case scenario, as you use the batteries the nickel hydrogen battery will outperform lithium, in Maintenace costs, and operational life. Not counting for the pressure vessel (not sure what it is made out of), nickel hydrogen battery has nothing in it that is toxic, or at least not as toxic as lithium.

[@bassdeff8819]

They are probably made out of steel like most compressed gas containers.

[@zyzzyva303]

"Look at the sun," in reference to H2 reactivity is a bit of bad science. Otherwise, I enjoy your content Matt.

[@egilsandnes9637]

Also: "Look at the sun" is generally a bad advice.

[@sidvicioux]

ok. this is the ONLY battery video i've seen since batt's became a thing, that seems to really have nearterm potential available to the masses. very interesting and informative. thx.

[@jameshanson8889]

Grid storage alternatives would be great news but agree that all of this is highly speculative, especially the bit about the mysterious replacement for platinum.

[@Vibe77Guy]

The alternate catalyst should work for hydrogen fuel cells as well. And a hydrogen fuel cell scrubber on the Edison Nickel Iron battery overcomes one of the major drawbacks of that chemistry.

[@paulogden7417]

It would be great for you to mention how they contain hydrogen for years, as this is supposedly very difficult to do. Your first closeup image is definitely not a battery. Why use that image? The info on alternative cathode metals was very interesting. Agree that 500-1500psi is not very high pressure. Many air conditioners as well as garden variety gas struts operate at these pressures. Also, I’m very tired of hearing about the danger of hydrogen fires. Most of us drive around while sitting close to gasoline tanks and spark generating engines. This is far more dangerous than a sealed hydrogen system. Drive down any Arizona highway and you can see the roadside scars of innumerable gasoline car fires.

[@orbitaldk881]

Enervenue has preliminary adds for home energy units too. That would be incredible to have a bank of 30 odd year batteries.

[@dylconnaway9976]

We have that now. Honestly, Li and LiFo batteries will do 30+ years with no problem if they’re taken care of.

[@irreverend_]

Zinc bromide is pretty good though for large scale static storage.

[@narvuntien]

Seems like it is very good for specifically desert (or other extreme environment) based commercial solar power

[@shadym1lkman]

Prof Cui - Is a battery tech legend!! glad to see him given some attention. He has so many papers that could change how we store energy. He worked with Samsung on their Note7 fiasco.

[@DavidJNowak]

Matt, thank you for your informative and entertaining mini-tech news briefs.

[@UndecidedMF]

Thanks for watching!

[@HydrogenFuelTechnologies]

​​​@@UndecidedMF I'd usually troll you but you did a good job on this one. You are still "defending" the suppression the elitist did with the nickel hydrogen battery technology, among other technologies, as if they couldn't have gave us the tech in the 70s. Yes they could have and YOU KNOW IT... Nickel hydrogen lenr reactors are also being suppressed. Look up the Brillouin Energy nickel Hydrogen Hot Tube reactor. 100% REAL VERIFIED TECHNOLOGY...you need to understand this. ...H-Cat ☢ 4 Life...

[@HydrogenFuelTechnologies]

​@@UndecidedMF I even plugged 🔌 you on my community tab, very rare for me to do as a esoteric hydrogen technologies researcher.

[@atomatopia1]

Interesting combo: run a solar powered hydrolysis plant, sell the hydrogen to your battery manufacturer, and sell the oxygen to the steel manufacturer that makes the battery tanks

[@harmhoeks5996]

8:25 "It's been a financial limiting factor, not a technological one" You also know these things are the same. Technological efficient = affordable

[@harmhoeks5996]

What is €/wh and wh/kg

[@TheWhiskeyDouble]

My dad used to work out Intelsat. Some really cool stories out of his experience there. The main building in D.C. has several atriums that were used in the filming of Star Wars scenes inside the Death Star (the catwalks without railing). Shame that it started going downhill some years ago, he jumped ship with early retirement before they got around to laying him off with the other senior staff. No idea how they are doing now.

[@cybernoid001]

wonder if the catalyst replacement can also be used not only for the battery, but for hydrogen fuel cells. That would also be a game changer.

[@nevadaxtube]

Speaking of batteries, Matt I am overwhelmed by the number of companies vying for EV battery relevance. Companies like Amprius, Our Next Energy, Prologium, Quantumscape, Factorial Energy, Solid Power, CATL,SES, Cuberg, Ion storage systems, Natron, Tailan New Energy, Toyota, Samsung, etc. Could you do a video on the real contenders vs. the pretenders in EV battery technology? Thanks.

[@weemackee]

I imagine the natural gas turbines used for peak load power generation are not particularly cheap to operate/maintain. Would be interesting to see where this technology currently matches up economically for such an application. Charge them during low usage hours when energy's cheap, and discharge during peak hours.

[@samsunggalaxytaba3858]

So basically if you have enough space nickhydro batteries are better.. if you are tight on space lion batts are better.. (assuming temp ranges are not too high or low)

[@tomdonahoe3539]

I'm NOT saying these are show stoppers, but: 1.) Nickel, platinum & palladium are relatively expensive materials. 2.) Pressurized hydrogen is difficult to contain. It's able to leak through seals & even solid metals more readily than any other gas (except He). But we've had a lot of experience with hydrogen containment from the space program. BTW, 1,500 psi is not a super high pressure. For comparison, the bailout oxygen seat bottles on fighter aircraft run about 3,500 psi.

[@sproglode]

As always Matt, your videos are the finest across the entire KZbin collection.

[@rickharold7884]

Cost. If it’s truly solved. It’s beautiful. I’m still excited to be using LiFeP04. I Just have to deal W mostly cold temp issues. But the many charge cycles is great. This new (old) battery would be great for our off grid desert and high mountain AI systems we have out there. Temperature is irritating challenge Thanks for sharing

[@joeyanglada1275]

Do you have played with L.T.O or prismatic? They have longer cycle life and safer than lipo4

[@a64738]

I have 5000kw/ hours of LiFeP04 in my van and 1300w of solar panels. Calculated I save 160kg compared to AGM led batteries + it has 4 times the lifetime of charging cycles.

[@damianmuscovich8329]

Just started following your channel and podcast and really enjoying the content. I'm interested in a review of home scale battery systems in development. My family and I live off grid and would like to know what might be available in the future when it comes time to replace our lithium banks. Cheers and keep up the good work.

[@shmutube]

VERY promising for grid-scale applications! I'd hope to see it in TX as a 100hr back-up for a full neighborhood of 100 households!

[@craigsharfenberg4517]

I used to work for the company that built the automation cell that made these batteries

[@YodaWhat]

*Nickel-iron batteries also last decades* and can be rejuvenated after that time.

[@nicoleibundgut534]

I am a huge fan of Lithium Titanate batterys. They use rar elements and sadly have a poor energy density around 70-80 wh/kg but besides that they have an extremly huge cycle life of around 30'000 almost no thermal runaway and you can charge and discharge safely at 10c.

[@WeylandLabs]

The most efficient batteries use a very small amount of lithium that's actually a good thing Lithium mining and refining is terrible for the local eco systems.

[@igelbofh]

And I'm a fan of pumped-storage hydro. There is no such thing as cycles, and the whole setup can provide many other services and utilities.

[@nicoleibundgut534]

@@igelbofh What other service can it offer? I think its pretty great with around 80% efficiency. Otherwise it costs alot money to build and there are also service and operation costs.

[@igelbofh]

@@nicoleibundgut534 It can provide irrigation water and flood control, especially on eroded slopes where vegetation has been cut to make place for "green solar"

[@nicoleibundgut534]

@@igelbofh How so? I can't really see how this would be.

[@Timmie1995]

Great video, and I'm hoping this takes off! Am I the only one who sees a severe audio/video desync though?

[@Bitt2Fitt]

Yeah, it starts around the 5 minute mark.

[@williamwilson6499]

Don’t see it.

[@neddyl1225]

Yes audio and video were out of sync.

[@rjbishop12]

Nope, perfect all the way through for me.

[@HeliophobicRiverman]

This sounds promising, thanks for continuing to educate us on emerging and re-emerging energy storage technology.

[@jbrethous]

I am in no position to verify what you say, but you say it well and explain it very well. I trust you. Great Job, Mr. Ferrell

[@Bakedbeanman69]

The problem with these is the energy density. Huge material and land costs.

[@farthersaidin]

I know you said these batteries are less energy dense so you can scale size, but do they charge and discharge faster or slower than lithium ion? What’s the comparitve efficiency of the conversion? If you suddenly got more wind, or a sunnier spot, capturing more of that energy faster would be ideal. Similarly, being able to instantly meet the needs of a sudden energy drain on the grid would be useful.

[@TherealCHuber44]

This was genuinely exciting to hear, great job!

[@TalentChaserdotcom]

As an engineer I have seen the aftermath of the explosion of an oxy acetylene tube. A whole factory was leveled.

[@Lolsashalol]

As an engineer, you should know that Acetylene and hydrogen aren't the same

[@kevroll99]

Looks like a very possible battery option for many applications once they figure out the rare minerals reduction equation.

[@HelloNotMe9999]

Salt water and iron flow batteries are far better for terrestrial use. Not all that energy dense, but 100% non-toxic (you can actually drink the electrolyte), entirely non-flammable (mostly water), very cheap (made largely with things that can be purchased at Home Depot), easy to transport and store (they are manufactured inside standard shipping containers), and a life cycle count in the millions of cycles (lifespan measured in decades at minimum with daily cycling).

[@fredbloggs72]

Like lots of others I regularly carry a 300bar (4300psi) air tank in my car, when it's not in there it's in the house, so 1500psi sounds ok.

[@jamesphillips2285]

The version of Nick-Hydrogen batteries you can buy is Nikel-Metal Hydride (NiMH). Typically rated to -2OC, but you need to charge them above freezing (just like Li-ion batteries) to avoid damage. Edit: Edit I believe they can discharge at up to 3C.

[@8Crixa8]

I remember reading a few articles back in 2000-2001 discussing the effectiveness of a copper-based catalyst for hydrogen fuel cell production and how it would revolutionize the way we store and transport energy. I wonder if Dr. Yi Cui's solution is related.

[@YoBooBoo]

I wonder what the cost breakdown would be for an off grid house. Unless the use in that scenario is overkill.

[@joshuas390]

I was thinking the same thing. I'm no electricity wizard so I've no idea what the average household uses on a 24 hour period but a couple of these batteries and solar panels would be amazing!

[@John-NeverStopLearning]

Nickel hydride batteries have been around for 40 plus years without the pressure. Totally recyclable. What about the new lithium sulfur batteries? I believe they are 4 times the capacity of lithium ion batteries.

[@lovelywaz]

It simply comes down to money. There's way more money to be made when you sell small capacity with short expiry duration multiple batteries to consumers. Of course, they can't do that with Govt. related projects and specially anything related to Space.

[@jimsvideos7201]

This sounds like a very much better idea than lithium for a home energy storage solution.

[@jebes909090]

Ah yes, high pressure hydrogen gas. What could go wrong 😅😅😅😅

[@dloman77]

I think the saying, "High Quality, High Capacity, Low Cost... pick two" applies here. Im largly against govt subsidies, but if they can pump billions into petrol subsidies, then they can subsidize deployments of expensive, but worthy techs like this.

[@supernova2459]

the nickel-hydrogen battery is not high capacity, so the other two check out, it's been said a few times that you need twice the amount of these batteries to have the same capacity as li-ion batteries

[@dloman77]

@@supernova2459 understood, but Capacity is not energy density, and need not refer only to the cell / unit, but rather the entire installation, as is the case with grid-scale storage. So point taken for cells, but not (imho) for grid-scale applications.

[@markapplejohn4376]

Our burning planet is now at critical mostly due to the fossil fuel industry. Imagine how fast we could reduce fossil fuels and advance green tech if all subsidies for the FF industry was transferred into green tech industries!!

[@wewoweewoo]

@@markapplejohn4376 renewable power isnt as 'clean' as it is claimed

[@chiraedisk702]

Loving the video. I'd add that a ton of the challenges of higher pressure vessels that we'd often be afraid of are resolved using metal hydride to increase density for a given space, reducing structural requirements, improving safety, etc. They add cost but that's up-front and you're still not worrying about replacing these batteries anytime soon and it sounds like it'd be more of a standard design over using the current existing metal hydride-adjacent plates. As for what's been put into the battery as a catalyst similar to fuel cells using platinum, there was something that was developed a bit over a year ago. iron sandwiched in thin wafers of graphene. the graphene is easy enough to make at that scale as its a natural formation and you're not using it for its strength. Some students and researchers discovered it and were hired on directly from their lab after they showed how viable the idea was. Anyway, this composite catalyst approach uses some of the most abundant resources on this planet in super tiny quantities and the entire process relies on refining the materials just right within known methods. What's better is that this catalyst replacement works on par with platinum as a non-wear component.

[@katiebarber407]

"up front cost" is something that would be made up for in a weeks worth of sales, but in practice, private companies use the excuse to somehow justify a permanent high price tag.. because bootlickers will believe just about anything the rich tell them

[@nevertolatetoprepare2802]

You are correct in that we have lots of experience in handling hydrogen safely. The big generators in many power plants are cooled by hydrogen.

[@glennkrieger]

Those pictures with dozens and dozens of buildings housing batteries is something I didn't even know, or could even imagine, existed.

[@Bobucles]

Chemical simplicity helps a lot with the recycling process, too. An ordinary steel tube filled with water, nickel and some anodes? Sounds pretty easy compared to washing dielectric and licking the lithium off of miles of battery fruit-rollups.

[@WeylandLabs]

There are more efficant way to get the materials off of batteries.

[@GeoffryGifari]

if this is cheap when mass-produced and can sustain high temperatures, maybe someday its possible to turn large swaths of arid land (like middle eastern/australian desert) as giant energy storage centers

[@UmbraHand]

The farther away they are from where the energy is used, the more energy is lost in the transmission

[@TerenceKearns]

If they're that expensive, the price of security will have to be included in the total cost of ownership. Would be interesting to compare them to low-density salt batteries.

[@ecclesiastical7787]

IMO... If you have a shipping crate full of these and bury it for 30 years under your solar grid , that may mitigate any potential "security issues".

[@Zacian2.0]

To be fair, NASA has been super great for innovation since it started (Velcro, space man food, space pens, ect)

[@igelbofh]

Wrong on the "no maintenance". These are pressure vessels. For hydrogen at that. Unless extremely overbuilt pressure vessels will fail without maintenance in atmospheric conditions on the surface. Not to mention hydrogen permeability into the metal making it weak. There is no need to rediscover what's already discovered - a hydro dam with the ability to pump backwards when there is excess electricity.

[@IOn_Vash]

The main problem with these is the energy density, at about 1/10th that of lithium cells. They would probably work for grid storage but you would need massive facilities for the cells using this tech to store enough energy to be worth it. Take a look at Tela's 3MWh grid storage units they are pretty big and you would need a unit 10 times that size to store the same energy using NiH2.

[@baTonkaTruck]

Not 1/10th. He said in the video Li are 260-300Wh/kg, Ni-H are 140Wh/kg, so about 1/2, not 1/10.

[@gabelspitzer3819]

Hydrogen as an energy storage solution has some major disadvantages which I feel are missing here, namely compression efficiency and cost. From a quick search one can expect a compressor efficiency of 65% (average) to 80% (best case) for hydrogen at these pressures on a large scale. It seems unlikely to me that the cost of the compressor was taken into account for the 'per kWh storage' cost listed and it is even more unlikely that compression inefficiency was taken into account (something that the DOE would probably consider). Please let me know if my assumptions are wrong. Whilst the batteries may be a "set it and forget it" solution, the hydrogen compression cycle certainly wouldn't be, so gains on this front are not as clear cut as presented. Lithium batteries may require maintenance, but so would your hydrogen plant. I understand that this may be somewhat mitigated by the need for hydrogen in the transport sector, but you'll still need a bigger H2 production facility than if you didn't have NiH2 batteries and thus would require more maintenance.

[@rfwillett2424]

You only have to do it once and it lasts 30,000 hours, that makes compression costs a none issue. The use of platinum and palladium would be except they appear to have found a reasonably priced substitute. The thing that makes me think this might go somewhere is that they are already building the factory, that and the pre-orders. We'll see.

[@rfwillett2424]

looked it up 15,000 psi tanks are routine in industry. The expense would be in making them light as possible for space applications. Plus bespoke production.

[@thebigmacd]

Compressing and releasing hydrogen isn't part of the charge/discharge cycle.

[@gabelspitzer3819]

@@rfwillett2424 I stand corrected then, thank you.

[@XxXenosxX]

NASA stuff usually does end up being the future

[@a_d_a_m]

if they still would rely on rare metals (and even possibly cobalt) then it sounds like it is still a pretty big problem. Mass producing batteries with rare metals is going to involve exploitation. It’s practically gauranteed.