#139

[@sablephoenix]

Dark Sun is the second-best setting ever made for D&D, after Planescape. And I have yet to hear anyone who claims Dark Sun is "problematic" actually give a coherent definition of what "problematic" actually means. Any nonsense about how we can't talk about "slavery" or even use the word is utter nonsense and anyone who actually, unironically puts that forth as a concern doesn't deserve to be taken seriously.

[@jasondincauze3629]

Shawn Merwin, properly explaining how Dark Sun is good for the current age

[@AwkwardGMCorbin]

Teos I love your Dark Sun work in 4e. Dark Sun I feel needs to come back, just to give diversity to the range. Its the only D&D setting that is drastically different from the medieval settings they've been putting out.

[@pheralanpathfinder4897]

Agreed!!! Kara Tur also provided a unique flavor. Just hire an all Asian art and design team.

[@erad3035]

@@pheralanpathfinder4897 Why? That's pure idiocy.

[@robynderme7444]

I jumped into Greyhawk in 1980 with the folio version but grabbed the boxed set when it became available a couple years later. While I would also homebrew settings, I always used Greyhawk as a reference. I even ran an ICE's Rolemaster campaign in Western Greyhawk that also drew inspiration from Dragonlance. Then, in 2004, in preparation for my son's first Gen Con (2005), we jumped into Living Greyhawk (and met Shawn). I loved sharing the setting with him and the memories we made there. I love this show! I watch it multiple times each week. Keep it up! 😀

[@MPonygirl]

"Omar have you had a chance to play in the Feywilds" Go watch _Court of Fey and Flowers_ right now. Omar was a delight in that.

[@keithulhu]

Ben, if you want to know more about Mystara, I recommend Mr. Welch's channel.

[@Cassapphic]

When shawn menmtioned dark sun having "Problematic" stuff I was bracing for "its a desert setting there's probably some orientalist/racist stuff going on isn't there" only to hear its just that the setting has pro enviornmentalist anti-capitalist implications/themes. Saying you couldnt do dark sun today because of that is like saying you can't remake ff7 today because you play as eco-terrorists, but clearly square enix made it work.

[@krim7]

There is a strong movement within the TTRPG space to eliminate all mention of slavery. One of the iconic races of Dark Sun, Muls, share a name with a derogatory term for a half-white, half-black person in the southern USA (Mule). Lots of body horror and gore inherent to the setting, which is also controversial in many TTRPG spaces.

[@digitaljanus]

It's kind of a fantasy Mad Max setting combined with some older pulp SF and fantasy ideas. Very divergent from the fantasy subgenres D&D usually deals with. I think the big sticking point for most people is how central slavery is to the Dark Sun setting--there's a lot of discourse on how to handle the notion of slavery in modern RPGs, or whether modern RPGs should deal with slavery at all. That said, I did see a tweet from Ajit George, the co-lead on Radiant Citadel, saying he'd like to take a shot at updating Dark Sun, that could be a way to do it.

[@joluoto]

It's more that slavery is everywhere, there are some problematic racist undertones (you coould probably easy write these ones out though), that you basically defile the land when you cast spells (you draw energy from the nature around you, arcane spellcasters are called defilers), and that genocides features heavily in the lore is a problem. And also psionics, D&D has not been able to get psionics to work despite having tried for 5 whole editions, and in Dark Sun psionics are everywhere.

[@armorclasshero2103]

​@@joluotopsionics is just alt magic, it's not really a problem

[@kitnal4143]

@@joluoto Honestly stuff like genocide, racism, slavery etc. *does* have a space in TTRPGs as long as it is done well and in a way that doesn't sit there going "isn't this amazing?"

[@memeslich]

We played in Dark Sun this year and everyone loved it.

[@pheralanpathfinder4897]

I'm secretly running Darksun themes within the Forgotten Realms. They have been hired to kill a new ruler trying to conquer the slave owning kingdoms. What they don't know is the villain is freeing the slaves and seeks destroy a devil artifact that gives eternal youth and great power the the monarchs (sorcerer kings) The very first session they sought to help some slaves without risking the greater cause.

[@JamesMillsNeutralBase]

I'm a Cypher System fan, so I'll try to explain the XP intrusions thing. It's definitely not a system for everyone, but I love it. It takes some finesse to know how to use it from session to session. You are not required to use Intrusions every time you want to add a complication. If you want to have guard reinforcements show up, then just make it happen. If you were always planning to have a trap in the floor in a particular area, go ahead. *But* if you want to change things up suddenly - if you want to throw a stick in the metaphorical spokes of the player's plans for them to solve - or if you want to change the tone of a scene - or maybe you just want to adjust the difficulty on the fly - then GM Intrusions are your best friend. And players will love them if you do them right. I've had players ask for more intrusions because they thought a combat was too easy, or offer complications which I could take them up on. Sometimes it's a joke that actually sounds like a fun idea. They're not to be used to negate players successes, or deny their ideas. They're the GM's way to turn the dials and control the scene in a way that the players get something out of, or can refuse if they want.

[@Lcirex]

Just going to point out that Mystara is the setting for the D&D Capcom arcade side scroller beat them up game. Which is on steam. Lots of fun if you never tried it.

[@Nemo12417]

For all the digital ink that gets spilled talking about how you could never adopt Dark Sun today, I see no proof of that. Tomb of Annihilation was released and Chult was said to have slavery, albeit uncommon. And in Waterdeep Dragon Heist, there is an NPC from a disgraced noble family that practiced slavery and trafficking. Eberron Rising From the Last War has a number of random street encounters in Sharn involving racism, both fantastic and otherwise. I suspect WotC's reluctance to actually make a distinct psionics system is the real culprit.

[@pheralanpathfinder4897]

Psionics are problematic because they weren't completed before the One D&D push began.

[@shallendor]

Mystara is the setting for the BECMI setting, it doesn't have gods but Immortals! Jakandor is my favorite AD&D campaign world! Having grown up with Shaw Brothers and martial arts movies, Kara Tur made me so happy when released! Japan like America is a colonized land, it had a native group called the Ainu, that were conquered by what we know as the Japanese!

[@azzaelulbrinter]

For me, the more lore the better. The Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus gazetter at the end is incredible, as it features dozens of location with "quest ideas", and random tables that direct to those locations and problems. The book itself doesn't provide the actual answer to those quests, but it's an excellent start for creating adventures in a closed location.

[@Malkuth-Gaming]

Nothing is too problematic to return, they just need a bit of love and attention.

[@Carnagepwnz]

Exactly, just because things are the norm in a setting doesn't mean they're good. Dark Sun is a world in crisis, they are missing an opportunity to write a world where players actions can truely change a setting. That doesn't mean I trust them to write it though.

[@zhornlegacy7936]

If anything some of these are the settings are exactly the perfect onboarding point for writers who are well versed in cultures that they are based on. I'm not saying to completely overhaul them. But say give more authenticity to the backgrounds in Kara-Tur, Al-Qadim, Maztica, etc. Have people to have a deep understanding of their culture's history and mythology bring in content for what types of heroes existed, what horrors and evils did they face.

[@r4z0rv1n3]

@@Carnagepwnz Yes! Dark Sun can absolutely be revived, but I don't trust current WotC to do it, Ravenloft, Planescape, and Spelljammer all were... milquetoast at best and kind of lazy at worst.

[@cyriltournier]

I like Spire's approach to lore: write way too much, even contradictory information about the setting. Do not give answers, only possibilities. Let the GM decide what to use.

[@RaigPrime]

Great video. I'm frequently surprised, though I shouldn't be, that content creators who many see as authoritative in the space don't have much experience with the D&D IP as a whole. Of course you aren't familiar with all the different editions and settings, of course... unfortunately even the old school content creators that played more recent editions and settings, still, generally reflect an uninviting "get off my lawn" vibe. This is the best setting-primer I have watched for players who are new to the older settings.

[@EchoingZen2]

I don't run Forgotten Realms for exactly the reason Teos brought up (12:41). It's so lore heavy, and if it player reads nearly anything in that settings, they'll both know more and have a different expectation than I do. It's likely why I just run homebrew settings, for the control. Also, pleeeease bring back Dark Sun.

[@johnmagowan6393]

OMG THIS! I have one player that knows better than he knows where he lives. He's so bad he drives himself nuts when he DMs lol.

[@coatesjk1]

I call this Star Wars Tabletop Syndrome. I would never want to run a game pf Star Wars for fear of not knowing all the little thjngs that have happened on every established planet.

[@Kimbrell]

Random question because I'm homebrewing a world for the first time and I have a dilemma... some players at the table seem to get names and NPCs confused with the amount of names and things that are unique to my world... but if I mention something or someone known from Forgotten Realms or just DnD lore in general their ears perk up. Do you use names from Forgotten Realms in your games at all or do you tend to stray away? (i.e. I used Lolth in my game and the moment she was mentioned I felt like I had the attention of the entire table unlike other times when mentioning a homebrewed character... which made me feel like I suck at creating NPCs lol)

[@EchoingZen2]

@@Kimbrell Personally, I make them all up, but you did highlight one of the problems of homebrew, you need to try to get your characters invested. For me, the best way is to directly tie your characters in with some faction or location. That PC can even help fill out details, and when they start creating things in your shared world, they will become more and more invested.

[@VestigialLung]

Fun variation on the rubber banding mechanics for a pvp game, I was involved in my school’s robotics team in high school. The tldr on how that worked was teams were given the details of a game they were making a robot for and a packet of specifications they could use for their robot (size, allowed components, weight, etc) and had to design to play that game with their bot. They typically tried to encourage close matches, and the best rule they made for that was that for seeding purposes (the playoffs were setup in sort of a racing model, where the teams with the most overall points made it in) you got double your opponent’s score if you won and your score if you lost, so if you absolutely obliterated an opponent, you didn’t get a ton of points for that. The balance to that was the teams that made the playoffs were tasked with forming teams of three teams via a draft system, so a viable strategy was to try to win in a way that maximized your opponent’s score, but also you could win by just demolishing your opponent and count on the fact that in the playoffs, where victory was all that mattered, you’d be chosen. It made for some really complex decision making as to whether you tried to play the seeding game, or if you just tried to maximize your winning potential. Could make for a really cool war game tournament system that upends play.

[@coatesjk1]

Talking about being an architect without doing the storytelling always reminds me of Keith Baker and how he's refused for the last 20+ years to provide a definitive answer for any of the World Secrets in Eberron; Because as he says, his answer isnt important, the one your table comes up with is.

[@pheralanpathfinder4897]

Very wise. Revealing secrets reduces imagination of the consumer

[@MarxMayhem]

Dungeon Meshi proves that you can have all sorts of adventures just in a dungeon!

[@kitnal4143]

TBH it is really just one adventure in a dungeon lol

[@kurtoogle4576]

In games filled with mind-control, murder, and other criminality, it is odd to be freaked out by Dark Sun. Other publishers successfully use content warnings and are careful with topics. Giving it to one of these third-party publishers might be the safest bet - profit and plausible deniability. ;>

[@pheralanpathfinder4897]

Wotc has missed out on major profits for the past five years as they tried to fight against them instead of profiting off from them. I'm hoping the new third party content on Beyond signals a change in direction.

[@lim4091]

I love when Ben mentions Infinity. Such a good game. But he’s right, that game can get wildly one-sided very quickly

[@Zr0din]

@2:30 What I would choose for 5e - Isn't that urban location - Ptolus? @29:00 The Yokai realms is not a world book but it is a HUGE player supplement. So no Geography, no Nations, no Customs... Just a "Zone" with some different weapons and these super huge monsters.

[@wadekenny1723]

Thanks for talking about food but i gotta say sorry. The question was more hectic than i remembered

[@atomicjess76]

I love the talk about being sensitive to stereotypes in Kara Tur. Then later in the episode “ my Kara Tur adventure was based on Iron Chef. “ 😂😂😂

[@tonysladky8925]

The 4E version of Dark Sun was the first official campaign setting I ever played in, so it's got a special place in my heart. Shawn's explanation just confirms its specialness for me. Woah woah woah woah woah! Woah... Chris Perkins (and now Jeremy Crawford) doesn't say "Yes" to Patrick Rothfuss. They say "For you, Patrick, anything." And then Jerry exclaims "This is that Pat Rothfuss *bullshit*!" and then the crowd goes wild. God, I love Acq. Inc.

[@MonsterCodex]

Kara Tur not sure, but Dark Sun is awesome

[@FernandoDolande]

To drop my own two coppers into this one (33:41) I'm Panamenian (right next to Colombia) and the scene here is small, but those who partake do so with the english books because A. Books in Spanish would need to be brought over from Europe as Spanish translations are done in Spain. (Which makes them more expensive than the English versions, which most people with an US POBOX could get from Amazon at a discount) B. Due the above, FLGS rarely stock the books (plus selling the book at US market prices + markup is a tough sell for most people who don't know what the game is like or has even tried it), taking into account people in LATAM make significantly less money than people in the US on average. C. Next to no effort or incentives by WOTC to promote organized play at stores. That is actually a fairly strong promotional tool. Overall, I get why WOTC would say "oh distribution problems". Naw honey, they know they would need to invest into making the TTRPG market viable in LATAM, and they don't see money in it, or don't care. Been like that every since I started GMing, 16 years back.

[@FernandoDolande]

Teos out here stating FACTS

[@odhinnfist]

On the catch up, narrative, fall forward mechanics that Shawn was talking about: I love Blades in the Dark, but man, it gets exhausting when you just keep succeeding with a complication over and over and over again.

[@ChristopherRoss.]

As far as who goes first in combat, personally I rule that if a player is specifically attacking or performing hostile action before combat has officially started, then they get the first turn. Everyone still rolls initiative, but the initiating player's turn for the first round happens at the beginning, and then on every subsequent round they go according to their initiative score.

[@randomyoutubecommenterr]

Pathfinder recently released a book, Tian Xia's World Guide (it's just a pure lore book of regions which is fun) based on a variety of asian cultures written in about the best way you can. Not focused purely on Japan but SEA countries, Korea, China etc with writers that had ties to the cultures and such. There was still a big bit of drama from people just discussing the book over appropriation, tropes on their reddit (but also..... eh that's reddit). I doubt WotC would dip their toes in that hornets nest when they can avoid it.

[@danrimo826]

what was the Tian Xia drama? I've looked and can't find anything. All I can find is people seeming to really like it

[@rooksgate5574]

Gaming is gaming, not the exploration of other cultures. Elves and dwarves came out of Germanic mythology. Yet when we see an elf in a “ Arabic “ or “Asian“ setting we never say cultural appropriation. There should be no limits on which cultural artefacts we put into any game. It’s an exploration of imagination. In My Home campaign drinking tea is a social normalcy despite the fact that the culture is mostly western. I just like the image of people sitting on a floor discussing politics over tea.

[@pheralanpathfinder4897]

I can't figure out how multi culturalism became cultural appropriation.

[@GlenFinney]

The Doctor Who 73 yards shout out very appreciated!

[@johnmagowan6393]

Monster Overhaul is a monster book that allows players to eat most monsters.

[@keithulhu]

Back in 3rd edition you could only set Greyhawk campaigns in certain parts of the world that corresponded to the real world. People in Texas could only set their Greyhawk campaigns in the Bandit Kingdoms.

[@pheralanpathfinder4897]

Living Greyhawk was amazing. Almost all the adventures were written by amateurs.

[@terryc1538]

Wouldn't it be a wonderful opportunity to bring in experts from the Japanese and Chinese cultures, who are members of those cultures? It would make for a great game. And a wonderful opportunity for WOTC.

[@pheralanpathfinder4897]

I'm playing Kara Tur. My DM is Malaysian. He is throwing in some flavor from local mythology and it fits like a glove.

[@dantherpghero2885]

(sigh) Ben remembered my comment, but not my name. The bickering and petty machinations of the ruling vampires reminded me of real world politicians. Indeed, Art doth imitate life.

[@jimmyrepine8952]

Crimson Court + Loot Studios new Scarlet Requiem = cross promotion that needs to happen. Just Sayin.

[@matthemming9105]

Badada badada badada... HOLD THE LINE

[@wildcardlebeau]

LOVE ISN'T ALWAYS ON TIME

[@talscorner3696]

It's almost as if life had been consistently extremely cheap in the Star Wars galaxy or something XD

[@Giantstomp]

I might disagree with Shawn on this one. I run the Greyhawk Adventures Group on Facebook, and I gained 800+ new members in two weeks after the announcement that Greyhawk would be in the DMG. Many of them are new to the setting, and many are older players who caught wind of it and are coming back. Also, don't undersell the importance of a world map. The fact that there is one will bring in more interested people. Now, of course, if they don't do anything about it by releasing new thins or opening up on DMsguild or D&D Deyond it will be a short term deal.

[@krim7]

Most of the forgotten realms, outside of Faerun, are not really worth salvaging. There are also places in Faerun not worth salvaging as well, Mulhorand & Unther should have stayed removed after the spell plague era. So many of the cool locations and places added in 4E fixed a lot of the problematic stuff within and around Faerun. It was sad to see it all reverted.

[@KaleDavid]

Buhpaduh!!!!

[@taejaskudva2543]

46:05 I hadn't really thought of comparing the fear currency mechanic to PbtA GM moves, but that makes sense. GMs don't make moves willy nillie. They are triggered, either by a partial success/failure, by the fiction, or when there is a lull in fiction and players need something to react to. The first is essentially the fear mechanic, and the second is kinda Teos's, "I'm the GM, shut up. I'll intrude when I want to," except with cause, not just pure GM fiat. Daggerheart is essentially saying, using mechanical considerations, you can stockpile those GM moves (earn a pile of fear) and unleash then when the fiction calls for it, but with the goal of driving the fiction, not goal of winning the game. Because PbtA is never about winning the game.

[@armorclasshero2103]

People seem to forget that all these niche settings sold poorly. That's a major part of why TSR failed. It has nothing to do with "problematic", it's about sales.

[@pheralanpathfinder4897]

Perfect opportunity to profit from a third party licensing deal. Let someone else do all the work then take a slice of the profit.

[@noctisinferno5704]

Is the citadel of the unseen sun slip case still up for sale? I cant find it on the ghost fire gaming store

[@erad3035]

I'm not sure it's for sale yet. I only got mine a few days ago and it was from the Kickstarter fulfillment.

[@wesmaass4669]

Why does WOTC, always place adventures in the Sword Coast, when the Realms has so many other great areas to adventure in?

[@TonyRobetson]

i think years ago, when wotc was doing their spoilers and swag show, they mentioned hiring culture experts for an asian setting. i thought it was going to be for kara-tur. probably for one of the anthologies. i hope they do it. i think they did a decent job with chult. think they should and can do other regions.

[@erad3035]

The grievance element of the cultural consultation industry should be COMPLETELY gutted. The grievance element comprises 90%+ of what they peddle and only a TINY fraction of consumers buy in to that garbage and the fact is evident everywhere, but these companies continue to set money on fire by catering to a miniscule mob of mentally-ill pseudo-activists.

[@armorclasshero2103]

​​@@erad3035 spoken like a true snowflake. the world has left you behind, grandpa. evolve or die.

[@sambro6657]

I went through the grimhollow campaign guide it’s great what do you mean? It has plenty of detail and lore about what a dm needs to run a game.

[@keithulhu]

What WotC will do with Greyhawk is hyper focus on one tiny part of the world and act like the rest of it doesn't exist like they did with Forgotten Realms and the Sword Coast.

[@pheralanpathfinder4897]

They have to start somewhere. Even the original adventures almost all occurred in central and east of central. The edges of the map didn't even show what is beyond.

[@EbenezerEibenhardt]

You've seen what a mess big corpo makes of D&D with the OGL debacle. If you want Dark Sun to return in glory and grow for another season of new adventures, find people you know and like personally, with a talent for writing good stuff and solicit them!! Encourage them, pay them, help them, buy them pizza, give them player journals filled with inspiring experiences and new ideas to peruse. They don't need the rights or an opportunity to profit directly from publishing them. If they do a good job, the work will publish itself!!

[@RaigPrime]

"Are these D&D Settings too Problematic to Return?" - No. :)

[@RevocerGM]

4:48 hear hear

[@bochosbrother]

DARK SUN with BROM doing the Art work, and no shenanigans about them trying to make it "fit" for everyone with "carebear adventures",... just good old gritty rated R Dark Sun for grown ups who can handle the Ravager! It's the only way to get me stoked about a 2025 release product from Hasbro to be honest.

[@HyperEwok1]

glorious clickbait, as if WOTC didn't release a 4E Dark Suns only ten years ago

[@digitaljanus]

14 years ago, at the cusp of the social media era and before 80% of the current player base was playing D&D. It's a completely different environment now.

[@LUZ_TAK]

Awesome but problematic setting I would love to come back: Birthright.

[@LUZ_TAK]

Birthright originally premiered the ShadowWorld, that later became Shadowfell

[@pheralanpathfinder4897]

I want a kingdom building game even if it's shoehorned into the Sword Coast.

[@simmonslucas]

it is strange to make a point to call Dark Sun problematic and criticize it. Then in the same breath say that WOTC needs to take a chance and release these campaign settings...

[@MarxMayhem]

16:00 "Wizards just loves stealing things that come out of Greyhawk." "Some things should just stay in other worlds." Nentir Vale, stealing from Greyhawk, FR and probably others I'm not aware of: **slowly walks backwards into a bush like Homer**

[@terratorment2940]

How is Dark Sun problematic? Is it because of the slavery? That's something bad guys do. You should be fighting against the slavery. What's problematic about fighting against slavers?

[@andyenglish4303]

Aw, no Dael.

[@shealupkes]

Imo settings should be adventure and system agnostic and vice versa across the board, settings and adventures give too many answers and ask too few questions, I'm the dungeon master, I'm the world weaver, I'm in charge of all this, they should be asking me about ebberon, forgotten realms, strixhaven, wildspace. I feel like lost mines of phandelver remains their best designed adventure because it's short and doesn't get into too many of the details I can easily make in my spare time or on the spot. Ebberon should be half crafting guide half textbook about mechanical engineering, forgotten realms should be half navigation guide half geography and geology textbook, strixhaven should be half arcanist sport manual half curriculum guide, wildspace should be 2/5 spelljammer construction hangar, 2/5 spelljammer combat system, and sprinkle a little bit of astrophysics and spaceflight here and there to give me ideas

[@seerieloc]

You know who was complaining about Oriental Adventures? White people. Not Asian people.

[@LordOz3]

"Cultural appropriation" in gaming is mostly modern white people complaining about other modern white people enjoying something from a non-white historical culture that doesn't affect them. When a Japanese family joined the local SCA chapter, they chose to adopt Scottish personas. When someone asked why they didn't adopt Japanese personas, they replied "We're Japanese every day. Here we have the chance to be someone else." That's why we play RPGs - to be someone else for a few hours. If we play in Kara-tur, it doesn't mean we're laying claim to Chinese or Japanese culture. We're just escaping from our every day lives as modern drones.

[@armorclasshero2103]

Lol. No.

[@bossbullyboy195]

KaraTur had Asian cultural consultants working on it the whole time for about 3 yrs before it was let out, as was AlQuaddim and many other settings that emulate real world places, they ABSOLUTELY were meant to be works of appreciation. 27:30

[@pheralanpathfinder4897]

Shhh the truth is irrelevant.

[@rgold9329]

Anytime I hear anyone use the word problematic non-sarcastically I immediately know they are the ones who are the problem.

[@badmojo0777]

Slavery if offensive? NO SHIT! lol, so is murder and tyring to take over or destoy the world. gotta save the princess? well kidnapping the princess is also WRONG lol... Heroes are needed in a flawed world. Including Evil in the world and overcoming it is WHY we play the game as long as the DM or the players arent glorifying it lol

[@colinflack4517]

Bad things? In a dnd setting D:

[@nicholasrova3698]

No.

[@adambaldinger4507]

Its problematic for the weak and uninitiated....

[@armorclasshero2103]

Like you.

[@mistergoats4380]

Nope.

[@jhennisparrhawk28]

I 'grew up' in Greyhawk (1e) but moved to The Forgotten Realms (5e), But like a Bills fan who moved to Miami, my heart belongs to Buffalo. ;-)

[@bossbullyboy195]

Radiat Citadel was THE WORST SELLING BOOK that WOTC has put out in 5e. It didn't even break 10k sold, no one wants that woke BS in the hobby.

[@pheralanpathfinder4897]

Anthologies consistently underperform

[@mathiasseverin5673]

I bought it, and I am not woke by any stretch of the imagination. It has interesting ideas and I don't regret my purchase.

[@bossbullyboy195]

@@mathiasseverin5673 I also own it but I was sure to get it second hand so WOTC didn't profit ...and the very fact that none of the authors were even gamers of ANY kind was very obvious