#141

[@stewi009]

James: "The only good indicator of whether you can make a good RPG is that you HAVE made a good RPG... and even then it can be a bit dicey." No pun intended, I presume.

[@rynowatcher]

A lot of words to say nothing :/

[@R2D_YT]

@@rynowatcher The quote is a bit out of context though. In context it makes more sense

[@rynowatcher]

@@R2D_YT not really; it is a platitude. He was trying to fill air time because he did wanted to talk without having anything to contribute, which seems to happen a lot with James.

[@vintagezebra5527]

@@rynowatcher So you don’t think that James’s observation contributed anything to the conversation and your response is to post a comment that doesn’t contribute anything to the conversation?

[@rynowatcher]

@@vintagezebra5527 your logic is a bit flawed as you are acknowledging the meaning of my statement while calling it meaningless. A thought was clearly conveyed that you did not know before or disagrred with, hence the reason for a response. You have so little to say about the platitude that we have moved onto another topic? I understand.

[@thewelshdm]

The Dicebreaker story is wild. 48 hours before they were meant to host a UK summit for TTRPG creators they had to cancel it (24 hours after the take over was announced). No explanation was given, the summit was their pinned Tweet. And it threw the people at MCM through a loop as well. Wild day. And now the redudancy posts are going out online, and it sounds like a nightmare for the staff

[@njfernandes87]

Interesting how dc20 became big enough to inspire a whole segment worthy of the title and thumbnail but still not big enough to be analyzed like the other two were at some point. Knowing that it was going to be a topic, I was looking forward to hear your thoughts on it, specially since it's damage system does exactly what you guys talking just last week, roll to hit but not for damage.

[@mathiasseverin5673]

Yesh, I paid extra attention this week in the hopes of a nonbiased review of DC20.

[@quillogist2875]

It was a very coordinated effort on DC20. Wotc is doing the same thing.

[@DougDavison]

Adam joined us only two weeks ago and we just finished rolling out a new website that he redesigned visually. We plan to crank out some other ideas before Summer is out and you will be able to see his hand in several of these features and releases. I love the energy and talent he brings to Fantasy Grounds.

[@paulsavas2394]

As always…one of the best talkie-thinkies about our community and culture!!! Well done y’all.

[@Veggie13]

I've poured my bowl of Conspiracy Cubes and sitting down for my weekly Ghostfire TV show!

[@RyanZibell]

I play actively on roll20 but I vastly prefer Foundry for intuitive design and user made content and mods.

[@wingedhussar2909]

A problem with foundry is that the mod list can be too extensive and you can run into incompatibility issues. Otherwise, it's good.

[@WrelPlays]

Really dig the exploration of TTRPG development and influencer followings, great takes all around.

[@ericshealy885]

Merwin’s right on the money to ask what qualifies as success here.

[@duhg599]

Agreed. And Shawn’s point about “Come back in two years to see who’s still playing these games” is absolutely correct. No one I know plays Candela Obscura, and my FLGS has two copies, both of which have been sitting on the clearance shelf. So I’m curious to see whether Tales of the Valiant, Daggerheart, the MCDM game, or DC20 fare any better in the next few years after they’re released.

[@ericshealy885]

@@duhg599 I’m thinking one of daggerheart or MCDM will stick. The concurrency-managing action economy has potential as the basis of a new niche - I’m working on one of these myself. ToV and DC20 have 5e and PF2 to contend with.

[@michaeljpastor]

@@duhg599 add to that how many other publishers and writers are writing additional stuff for it (if they have an open license)

[@LordOz3]

As a published author, one of my biggest challenges is getting my books in front of potential readers. A lot of authors engage BookTok or similar concepts, but it could be frustrating for a good writer who lacks marketing skills see others succeed on the basis of hashtags rather than stories. Since I'm not videogenic, I rely on more traditional advertising - but you can't just write a good book and assume it will sell.

[@shadomain7918]

INfluencer-ification: Interesting the definition of Success that Shawn mentioned. I've supported products of people from whom I appreciated their online contact (like Colville, et others) Knowing I would never run their games. I looked at it as a way to pay them back for years of free content that I considered valuable.

[@rynowatcher]

Yeah, there are a lot of people who watch CR and do not play d&d. This is an odd thing that other media had dealt with already; ie, some people like superman comics but hate the TV shows or cartoons. There are also folks that just want to support the creator and do not care about the product. Ie, a Star Wars key chain is not bought because it is a superior key chain so much as people want the support of the ip.

[@dantherpghero2885]

I Love ALL Ghostfire Podcasts videos!

[@justiceraminarman]

Good stuff! I've heard it said before that whatever path you took was the right one for you. Success has many definitions depending on who you ask-to say nothing of the difference between perceived success and the behind-the-scenes realities of being a creator at any level-but I think we can all agree that nothing worth having comes easy. Building a KZbin following is tough. Game design is tough. Self promotion is tough. At the end of the day, a rising tide lifts all ships. If we support each other and hype up our friends in the industry, it will continue to flourish with opportunities to collaborate and learn from each other-and have fun doing it!

[@graynanuuq]

Conversations like this are why I watch the Lorecast every week ASAP even though I abandoned D&D as a system 5 years ago.

[@RecklessFables]

Roll20/DriveThruRPG/Demiplane/ is the Pepsi to WotC's Coke. There will be other options, but they will be forever the bargain or boutique brands. The problem is in gaming you generally need others to play with, so it isn't just a personal drink choice, it is limited by other folks agreeing with your choice.

[@MagiofAsura]

Except roll20's offerings are beyond just DND.

[@MarxMayhem]

I'm willing to put my trust and money into people who can show me they can make good stuff. The medium of how I knew them does not matter.

[@michaeljpastor]

but how did you find out about them? most of the designers I now follow I met over the vine of KZbin creators, and the people *they* recommended (frequently through this show and Mastering Dungeons). It's not just the self-branding, it's also the recommendation engine.

[@MagiofAsura]

Its about outreach. Rob Schwab is a great designer but few and far between know of shadow of the Demon Lord/Weird Wizard. 13th age 2e's Kickstarter wrapped up around the second day of DC20's KS at $380k while DC20 wrapped its first day at $500k. If more people were informed and knew of 13th age 2e, they may have been interested. If you have more outreach, you have a better chance at success. Edit: hell, im willing to bet if people were educated on 4e and adnd, there would be more people interested that just didnt know how different I those games are from 5e.

[@donkeyfly43]

Great work gang. As for illustrators being annoyed that they have to learn how to make TikTok videos, join the club. That is true of basically every industry now. I asked to learn everything from graphic design to the event coordination in order to run a freaking D&D game.

[@helixxharpell]

If you're an illustration expert come see us! We're hiring!

[@edwardchavers619]

I am waiting for the name of the game to change to Dragon Age- the Dael Guard. A game with opinions.

[@connorkennedy1794]

Shawn is preaching powerful wisdom about usability. Good design gets used more often because it's designed as such. What good is a gorgeous ttrpg if I never play it because I find myself reaching for something else more concise, interactive, evocative, and modular? I love design that bears my DM burdens and preemptively seeks to solve them in thoughtful ways. Give me more tools to build conflict and knick knacks that encourage player engagement. Layer information so it rewards scrutiny and investigations. Give me usability or give me death. I adore great art, and layout can play a huge role, but there has to be priorities.

[@godminnette2]

I think something different about DC20 is how small Coach's following was compared to MCDM or Critical Role. It seems like his videos tend to get 4-5 digit views instead of 6-7 digit views. The overwhelming majority of people I see in the Dungeon Coach discord server joined sometime after the first public release of the DC20 Alpha. I am one of them; I found the system because someone whose game design chops I trust thought it was a far better iteration on D&D than the 2024 revision, and I agree with him now.

[@chrisg8989]

Not to mention, his channel only has around 60k followers. Which is a drop in the bucket compared to Critical Role and Matt Covell. Really shows that the quality of his offerings are top notch. He didn't get 1 million in Kickstarter from being a popular influencer.

[@wingedhussar2909]

D20 is just DnD with homebrew rules, kind of like Advanced 5e from ENWorld. So...eh.

[@chrisg8989]

@wingedhussar2909 it's pretty obvious you haven't actually looked at the system with that statement. 🤣

[@danrimo826]

The smart thing DC did was sponsor content from all the other mid sized YT channels. Massively boosted the audience

[@dane3038]

A lot of his traction is because he pays YTers to review his product. That's what most RPG KZbinrs are, salesmen or people auditioning to be salesmen. This is not a statement about his game, just the industry in general.

[@Andre_the_Lion]

The "Jeep" part of the name is from a larp group that pioneered the idea. Cursory research suggests a focus on storytelling with a message and a vibe like an improv comedy game.

[@michaeljpastor]

It's not just monetization of parasocial relationships - it's also community building. Star Trek Fandom is the perfect example - without the fans doing cons before cons were a Thing, the first movie would never have been made, and the series would just have been a footnote like Firefly, which had nothing but a footnote of a movie.

[@chrisg8989]

I 100% agree with Dagger Heart and MCDM having success, mostly due to their massive following. While DC20/Dungeon coach has around 60k followers and has still managed to reach 1mil in Kickstarter despite this. In my opinion, this shows that the Mechanics behind DC20 is something people are excited about, not that their favorite content creator is making a game, which seems to be the case for Dagger Heart and MCDM.

[@simmonslucas]

I was gonna make the same comment. Dungeon Coach hustled. I fell like MCDM could sell a blank book to their fans...

[@andya5456]

There's a lot of other KZbinrs hustling the Kickstarter also. DM lair, pack tactics, bob world builder, TreantMonk, and a dozen others are repeating the sales pitch on their channels.

[@chrisg8989]

@andyaleman5456 100%. Part of that is paid advertising by Dungeon Coach, but a large group of these creators are doing coverage for free cuz they feel strongly about what DC20 has to offer. Which is a good sign.

[@lim4091]

Could it just be that it has been backed liked the MCDM rpg and Daggerheart because it is a d20 game, while the other two are not?

[@chrisg8989]

@lim4091 DC20 is as much its own game as Dagger Heart and MCDM. I'm not sure what your implying. 🤔

[@ken.droid-the-unique]

"The rise of the monetization of the of parasocial relationship" makes this all sound creepy... But it does sound accurate.

[@sethb3090]

You mean to tell me that the hobby that's many nerds' primary social interaction is getting driven by social media?

[@justinmichael9043]

I love the special edition cover of the monster manual. I think the basic one is too busy. I love the colors of the special edition.

[@dane3038]

38:20 He makes a point that I've come to realize about the industry. Some RPGs are not written to be played. They are written to be sold. A lack of prewritten adventures is the biggest clue. Also, when an RPG has no physical offering. *PDFs and their price is the biggest scam sense the invention of books.

[@DavidSmith-jj7ll]

Go for the eyes, Boo! GO FOR THE EYES!

[@joshuabraddy6264]

I’ve heard it mentioned so often and now I’m finally asking - what war games do you play, Ben? I’ve been playing a lot of Old World recently myself.

[@benbyrne2429]

Hey, thanks for asking! Played X-wing (1st Ed) before getting into D&D. Played Warhammer Underworlds around Nightvault/Beastgrave era, and Infinity (O-12) since 2020. Most recently got back into 40k with Tau combat patrol.

[@joshuabraddy6264]

@@benbyrne2429 Super cool! Glad to see another devotee of the Greater Good!

[@ChrisSneeze]

You bring your audience to your crowdfunder. However you built that audience. You make products and publicize them. You podcast and garner an audience. You make videos and garner an audience. The. You can sell stuff. Shawn is right that it depends on your goal. Take a look at the Gauntlet. They might not be the biggest company out there but if their discord is any indicator then Jason Cordova has got people playing his games. A fair amount of them.

[@louis1372]

33:25 Gogo DC20 💜💜💜

[@willschoonover8654]

Ben, you should totally come to Adepticon!

[@Streamweaver]

I can't really think of a single TTRPG kickstarter that has moved anything in the community. Shadow Dark might be the closest but it's extremely niche. There is so much disconnect between TTRPGKZbin, Kickstarter, and the actual game playing community that they're only loosely related. TTRPG Kickstarter feels more like meme stocks than they do actual games that get played.

[@MutatedStates]

It’s not what you make, it’s who you know.

[@cernunnos_lives]

Always great points made guys. Even an opinion on Dragon Age. It's going to be all new Devs and of course EA will have their influence on the game and marketing. You'll be looking at all new & different people making that game.

[@R2D_YT]

We got high energy Ben today!

[@shamuswilliams]

I again agree with Sean about artwork. It doesn't really inspire me. It looks interesting (hopefully), but I immediately move on. I much prefer the mechanics and crunch as reference points for devising adventures. Yes, you need a social media platform to succeed in the RPG space. In this context I'm considering success to be financial, and perhaps units sold. There are plenty of creators who produce outstanding material but are not visible in the RPG community, and therefore aren't successful.

[@nope7832]

on influencers : i feel all these games from youtubers devalue the videos they make as they are evidently now fodder for the algorithm and a marketable necessity for their kickstarters. I understand the game, i hate the game (not the players)

[@paulsavas2394]

This. And now as Dungeon Coach has made all the popular KZbinrs profit share affiliates for his Kickstarter, their principles are now suspect. Keep an eye on the content creators who aren’t taking part.

[@danrimo826]

Yep. And now the algorithm has taken note so I'm seeing a lot of small channels jumping on board to get dem clicks

[@NateFinch]

Never heard of Demiplane before. I guess it's like a generic DnDBeyond? That sounds cool. I've used Roll20 and tried the other VTTs and they all kind of have terrible UIs. Roll20 still looks like it was designed in 2010. If Demiplane is easy to use like you said, I hope those devs will come help make Roll20 better.

[@Zr0din]

LOL, 2CGaming seen as successful?!? I'm still waiting for a KS to deliver, and it's up to 3.5 years and counting.

[@dane3038]

Here's a problem that nobody talks about. Get on an RPG chat and ask for a recommendation for a rules lite game and a bunch of people will tell you GURPS. Ask for crunchy game and people will tell you PBTA ( ok maybe not that ). People push the games they like because they want it to be popular without being honest about what it is. Many will just answer with whatever the flavor of the month is. How's that Kids on Bikes session going? lol.

[@helixxharpell]

I as an old grognard creator can only hope that people will find "Khor The World of Many Portals" a compelling world setting that people will want to set their games in. With all the different rulesets coming out it's tough to get noticed! I think we now need to change the company name to "Nobody Knows Us Games". 😅

[@ronsorage78]

I backed crooked moon. Know nothing about the creators. It just is up my alley.

[@chrism6315]

Im just here for DDAC

[@davidrempel4862]

Shadowdark seems to be doing well so far. The rest…TBD.

[@Apetus]

Monopolies are always a good thing... Right...?

[@PalleRasmussen]

FASTAVAL

[@MPonygirl]

As someone who has largely given up on ever being a successful author in part because authors now have to be their own publicists, I feel that last discussion in my bones' bones. Also, not worried about DA:V trailer. Remember the DAO trailers with Marilyn Manson? Those things are always made by the marketing departments and not by the actual creators of the game. As fraught as it's been these last 10 years as a DA fan, I'm glad we get that next chapter.

[@vincelang3779]

But is the marketing department responsible for character designs? I'm sure they are, up to a point but does this influence extend to dialogue writing, or the general aesthetics of the game world? I'm not turned off by the music choices or character intros - all of which are obviously copy-pasted from successful games, one of which was clearly OVERWATCH - I'm DONE with the colour purple being slathered everywhere, and the fighting gameplay ripped from WB Batman games, and the hideous character designs and, well . . . everything, really. This low-rent, low effort garbage is pure PRODUCT designed by committee, for an audience that has never seen any other piece of media. I, for one, no longer drool over faux-edgy, Whedonesque regurgitation. Really : can we be done with Buffy The Vampire Slayer already? That "look at me : I'm so kewl I don't ever care!" attitude? Cause I was over it right about the time SERENITY left theatres . . . :barf:

[@ThePrimateKing]

Interesting as a bunch of folks from DDB went to Roll20 after The Purchase.

[@paulsavas2394]

Dungeon Coach up there with the two Matthew’s? Hmm.

[@Nanenroe]

Dael wrote a Theros book? I've got to get that!

[@patricks2645]

I for one get really turned off of projects that have a 'humble 20k kickstarter goal' but everyone and their mother posts a video the day it went live and it raises 1.2mil. Its not a crowdfund campaign anymore, its a marketing campaign. We need a new term for these kinds of projects cuz I feel like people are abusing the term "crowdfunding campaign" when they spent the crowdfunding goal in marketing before the campaign even starts

[@facelessone86]

He actually put a badge "funded in 1 min!" How embarrassing. Lol

[@godminnette2]

Yeah, the initial goal was really 250k. 20k was to recoup costs. Of course kickstarter serves as a marketing campaign also, but without kickstarter funding, this game could not have feasibly resumed development.

[@hawkname1234]

News for you - that's all crowdfunding is anymore. It doesn't route capital to under-capitalized creators. Not remotely. And the platforms support this because it's more easy money when the already successful people give them 6% to run their followers through the platform.

[@godminnette2]

@@hawkname1234 Coach was literally an under-capitalized creator in this case. He could not feasibly continue development of the game without this kickstarter.

[@jerichojeudy]

On the legacy media front, TV and Film are still, on average, making people much more money than social media platforms. Of course, social media is more open ended and the elite make a lot of money… but it’s such a small percentage of the overall market!

[@ArmoredAnathema]

As someone who's been running Liana Mackenzie's wonderful Valor TTRPG system, it pains me to see that game struggle so much while these E-Celebs coasting off 5e's success make what are essentially an inferior versions of that system with its derivative, tired DnD-eque character options and get damn millions. Same for a lot of other non-dnd games that get neglected, from the more tactical to the more narrative (that aren't the millionth PtBA derivative). "What if martials didn't suck? Well I have a system just for-" I've NEVER had this problem playing Mutants and Masterminds, Valor, among several other games, and yet NOW all of a sudden we have a "solution"?

[@Batterydennis]

The bing bing thing

[@tonysladky8925]

I feel like there needs to be a word for "different things that look like they're the same thing, but they're not the same thing but they are intertwined." Like, there's gotta be a word for that buried in some philosophy text that no one has ever read but somehow the video essayist doing a three-hour deep-dive on the Souls series or the Spider-Verse movies knows, right?

[@falconnm]

42:25 Ben discussing gaming influencers monetizing their parasocial relationships with their audience. He goes on to say "not that there's anything wrong with that". I thought it ironic that there's nothing wrong with someone monetizing their relationships, unless the someone is WOTC, in which case the entire online community has decided to hate them forever. 😳

[@DrLipkin]

Corporations are not people.

[@hawkname1234]

People hate WotC because they are a stand in for "Evil Corporations" and they believe the ends justify the means in publicly and demonstrably attacking with lies to signal virtue.

[@dane3038]

Yeah, THAT's the reason we hate them. lol.. Ok...

[@badmojo0777]

when rich epeole buy a bisiness, the firs thtng they want is THEIR MONEY BACK and NOW! emplpoyees, quality and service be DAMNED!

[@FablesD20]

Clip them all doing it! lol

[@NoplacelikeNarnia]

Algorithm. :)

[@lanthorn9910]

Laughed at Matt Colville trying to detach from a game he literally named MattColvilleDM!! 😅 Perhaps a third type of success, following money and gameplay (of finished game), is EGO satisfaction?

[@TheLisaAWhite]

The name of the company is MCDM. The name of the game is... not yet announced :) I think a lot of people name the companies they create after themselves.

[@lanthorn9910]

@TheLisaAWhite title reads, MCDM, The Dangerous Adventure!

[@TheLisaAWhite]

@@lanthorn9910 I'm sorry, which title? The backer kit page calls it the MCDM RPG. According to streams and their Patreon posts, they have not yet released the name of the game.

[@facelessone86]

Name has not been anounced.

[@lanthorn9910]

@TheLisaAWhite I'm sorry, I didn't mean to confuse this... I was just saying that whatever the name is, it's likely "MCDM" will be close to it. UGH! I hope it's anything but "The Dangerous Adventure".

[@akashambatwamiller6924]

Shawn I am so much worse at art than i think you would ever be.

[@bamboozledgreatcrowd8982]

Players handbook standard better then limited. I think most people would have bought 2 dungeon master guides if the had put Dungeon Master on the limited cover. People would also have probably bought 2 monster manuals if the would have used the Dungeon masters guide limited edition cover for the limited edition monster manual. They would have sold soooo many books.

[@WarmongerGandhi]

I've been a little leery at the way they've done multiple press cycles for 5e24 just saying "Check out this art that references the D&D cartoon!" I'm also kind of annoyed at the concept of publishing limited-edition versions of the books in general. But having said that, you're right: if they're going to do those things, it seems crazy to me that they didn't put Dungeon Master on the limited-edition DMG.

[@MatthewBreck]

Capitalism has finally truly come for Ttrpgs. Now you can barely find a good dm that isn’t charging. Now every article every add on and every system will come at a cost. And slowly plait surely Ttrpgs with be corrupted. Once a place of escape from the harsh truths of reality, now a slave at the heel of lady capital. This is how creativity dies, now with a cry but with a whimper in the dark. And most of these influencers will never realize they are part of the problem.

[@michaeljpastor]

There's plenty of free stuff out there.

[@sparklingwater925]

RPGs always were apart of capitalism

[@hawkname1234]

@@sparklingwater925 You meant "a part" of capitalism, and not the opposite, right?

[@Galinarig]

My biggest problem with these types of games (having funded a few of them) is that they aren't bringing anything really new to the TTRPG mainstream. Most of them are still linked to 5E (4E in the case of MCDM) in some way and therefore still offer a similar experience. Also, I don't think any of theses products will remain relevant long-term speaking. But I know this isn't a problem for most of the community! For me, though, I believe that perhaps it would be better to invest time and effort into something that would transform the mainstream, bringing something truly new to the TTRPG scene. But investing in variations of already established products is a safer and more profitable approach, so I also understand these influencers and their crowdfunding.

[@lanthorn9910]

Speaking of art, boy, do I think Shawn would look better in glare-free eyewear! Way toooo much reflection happening, mate.

[@justinmorse4906]

you video is unwatchable with all the ads

[@phrogprince2223]

Given James Haeck’s insightful nature, I’m surprised he doesn’t perceive the connection between his point about industry disruption in mass media and the disruption in digital artwork caused by AI. “The age of the [art format] is on the way out, and probably has been for a long time,” he notes. “What these now aging, legacy forms of [art format] need to do to survive is to append themselves to the modern form of [art format].” Many in the TTRPG industry view AI through a narrow lens, seeing only a small part of the forthcoming changes. Few, myself included, grasp the massive scale of societal and geopolitical transformation anticipated between 2025 and 2035. Recognizing this impending change is the first step towards adapting to the new paradigm.

[@michaeljpastor]

you're conveniently leaving out the theft aspect of generative AI art and writing, which is core to James' and many others' objections.

[@Doodle1776]

These games are only successful because of who they are, not because of their content. Critical Roles Candella proved that along with MCDM. People bought in MCDM with zero clue what the game even was about or before any of the game was even made. These games will ultimately fail. Daggerheart already has the same issues that Candella did and MCDM is just a rebranded 4e.

[@lim4091]

Don’t… respond… to the troll…… don’t do it!

[@Wlof25]

@@lim4091 Poisoning the Well (also known as: discrediting, smear tactics, appeal to ethos [form of]) Description: To commit a preemptive ad hominem (abusive) attack against an opponent. That is, to prime the audience with adverse information about the opponent from the start, in an attempt to make your claim more acceptable or discount the credibility of your opponent’s claim.

[@lim4091]

@@Wlof25 nah, it’s a troll

[@facelessone86]

@@lim4091 wlof25 is a secondary troll. Impressive.

[@Dorian_sapiens]

@@facelessone86 Same troll, different account.