#144

Phil Maffetone is an author, health practitioner, and coach with decades of experience helping everyone from amateurs to world-class athletes optimize their health and performance. In this episode, Phil explains the importance of developing the aerobic system, defines maximum aerobic function (MAF), and explains how to determine your MAF heart rate. He then demonstrates how to integrate that into a training protocol which is designed to help people move faster at a sub maximum heart rate and increase fat utilization as the primary source of fuel-emphasizing the importance of nutrition on one's capacity to oxidize fat. Phil also extracts training insights from the amazing feats of world-class marathoners, explores the impact of a low-carb diet on one’s capacity for high intensity exercise and anaerobic performance, and explains the downstream effects of being “overfat.”.
We discuss:
00:00:00 - Intro
00:02:30 - Phil’s background in running, and training insights from a six-day race
00:11:00 - The difference between being “fit” and being “healthy”
00:18:15 - Defining the aerobic and anaerobic systems, and why VO2 max doesn’t predict performance
00:24:00 - Defining maximum aerobic function (MAF), determining your MAF heart rate with Phil’s 180 Formula, and why a strong aerobic system is crucial to health and performance
00:37:30 - Using the MAF test to track and improve your aerobic fitness
00:40:00 - How increasing your sub-max pace at a given heart rate can increase your maximum pace
00:43:00 - The impact of nutrition on one’s ability to use fat as fuel while exercising
00:51:45 - Phil’s nutritional approach with patients, the concept of “carbohydrate intolerance”
00:58:00 - Assessing the impact of a low-carb diet on high intensity exercise and anaerobic performance
01:04:45 - Extracting insights from world-class marathoners
01:13:30 - How being “overfat” affects health and performance, and ways to decrease excess body fat
Show notes page: peterattiamd.com/philmaffetone/
About:
The Peter Attia Drive is a weekly, ultra-deep-dive podcast focusing on maximizing health, longevity, critical thinking…and a few other things. With over 30 million episodes downloaded, it features topics including fasting, ketosis, Alzheimer’s disease, cancer, mental health, and much more.
Peter is a physician focusing on the applied science of longevity. His practice deals extensively with nutritional interventions, exercise physiology, sleep physiology, emotional and mental health, and pharmacology to increase lifespan (delay the onset of chronic disease), while simultaneously improving healthspan (quality of life).
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[@healthyteddy]

Peter, this is becoming my favorite show. Thank you for going deep into these subjects.

[@Amanda.c91]

Love love love doing Maffetone low heart rate running. Feels so great running now, I’ve signed up for my first marathon :) plus I’m dropping fat, sleeping better, and have zero aches/pains. Goes hand in hand with intermittent fasting and low carb keto eating 👌🏼

[@suesimmons926]

When I first read, "In Fitness and in Health," two decades ago I knew Maffeton was a real gem! .... and still on the cutting edge!

[@dannyhenry38]

I’d imagine the negative comments so far haven’t tried the MAF method or else they’d have a different outlook. Thanks for this piece Peter. Very relevant and more in-depth than what I’ve heard from him before.

[@sessarichard]

Well, trying the MAF method isn't science, it is anecdotal. Just because it works for a few athletes doesn't mean it's the best. Science shows that you need more than just easy running to perform at your best.

[@Burps___]

@@sessarichard Agree.

[@dreswan1]

@@sessarichard where did they say the best or that it works for everyone?

[@sessarichard]

@@dreswan1, well if you are going to present a training method, it is reasonable to think it is optimal for most people. But we know it is not. MAF may work well for beginners or people with rare physiology, but the overwhelming majority of competitive and elite runners don’t use MAF because it is not ideal.

[@dreswan1]

@@sessarichard where is your evidence and not your opinion?

[@Amanda.c91]

Maximizing your aerobic fitness also does amazing things for metabolic health. Staying in the aerobic zone, the body will prefer fat as fuel. If you go anerobic for the sake of looking bad ass or just to have a faster pace to impress unimportant people, you will have more fatigue, you’ll burn majority glycogen, resultantly crave sugar after your run, and usually will get an injury due to poor form. Cortisol will be elevated the entire run. Then you’ll crave sugar, binge on sugar and gain fat...and look like so many other runners running all these miles but are still over fat! Drop the pace my people, drop the carbs, up the fats and protein, train in the aerobic zone, do it fasted and be patient and watch what happens✨

[@fatmel_8214]

Great episode. 2 of my "examples" in life, Dr. Attia and Dr. Maffetone. Combined, they learned me to fast for health, and be a better runner by training at low intensity. Thanks!

[@knutbk]

Thanks for sharing this content with Phil Maffetone and the insights found throughout your discussion. I heard you say at the end that there is nothing especially healthy about training for an Ironman, or a bike race, or an event. I'd challenge you to see the wisdom in those that find health through the pursuit of performance for an Ironman or other event. After all, it's how I found your channel and this video. Having slogged my way through my first IM in 2019, I challenged myself to train smarter and performed much better at my second IM in 2021. And though my 2022 only includes Zwift racing currently, with another little one on the way, I continue to refine my training and health in the pursuit of better event performances.

[@danielmccarthyy]

Most MAF interviews are a disorganized jumble. This is the best one.

[@francisbertolini2590]

I’m glad you interviewed him Peter because there are not a few naysayers of this methodology out there.

[@sessarichard]

If the methodology works so well, why don't professional and collegiate cross country teams use it?

[@IT_Farhan]

@@sessarichard They actually do, it's also called base building, 80/20, or Zone 2 training, although the MAF HR may not exactly align with the Z2 limit.

[@Trapezoideris]

Thanks Peter

[@dinomiles7999]

I'm amazed he still alive .

[@evanhadkins5532]

I'm interested in health not performance. Most of the discussion of this (and many other systems) are about performance.

[@jeffreyharrison4045]

Always appreciate the thought-provoking content. I wonder what Phil pre-race protocol would be for 5k to half marathon races to optimize the fat burning that he refers to. Thanks!

[@KJBtheMosFett]

On assessing the impact of low a carbohydrate diet: I would be interested to see that experiment done with athletes in highly anaerobic activities (like wrestling or MMA where practice & sparring extends past an hour). I don't think that HIIT is a sufficiently long activity to completely deplete glycogen stores. My intuition suggests that would be necessary to "really" test the potential for decreased performance when limiting energy sources to primarily fat oxidation. I would note, what he suggest lends support to the old adage of "doing your road work" in the morning for boxing/combat sports ( ie: 30 mins low intensity jogging).

[@nikitaw1982]

Vo2max Yes we jogged after animals but we needed to sprint to evade predators. Have brutal fights against rivals.

[@CarnivoreDMD]

I was following Maffetone training for tri’s back in the 90’s using a HRM and zones. I improved my diet for sure but never ever thought about removing carbs. I kept eating lots of spinach & finally succeeded in getting a kidney stone along with metabolic syndrome. Being nutritionally ketogenic back then would have been a huge game changer as I couldn’t stop from getting injuries from too much plant matter toxins & carbs.

[@dannyiskandar]

So is this the same as Zone 2 training that Peter talks about? If not, what's the difference? And if it is, isn't measuring lactate is more accurate that 180-age?

[@SuperKettMan]

Basically the same destination, but the directions on how to get there are different.

[@yeahhhhh9209]

i do not fully understand the MAF calculation, i mean it's true that the 220- age is inaccurate, but even a general 180- the age it's always an estimation, to me it's much more correct and accurate the Karvonen formula , which takes into account the rest heart rate, the actual max heart rate...

[@mrgame97]

Where are the sources? Im looking for a good book on aerobic exercise , a guide if you want to.

[@nikitaw1982]

Son is 6 and lkces with the mother. Im temped to get a treadmill with heart rate speed setfing and a heart rate monitor and son just runs a km a day and in crease slowly over years and months. I read 16 year old top rugby players do 10km a day on top of hard training. Fit for life. Very adaptzble when young. When at school sit lumped over a desk all day when full of beans. Child labour common other countrys and they work 14 hours a day lol. How is their health minus the pollution etc

[@netto682]

👏👏👏🇧🇷

[@danielmc99999]

Around the middle of the episode, Phil mentions the "outliers" with heart rates hitting 180 who are prone to their bodies falling apart / running the risk of heart attacks. I'd love for you to at some point peel the onion back a bit on this one.

[@wmp3346]

That's (180) his starting point minus your age. If your 75, you have to run with a 105 heart rate. That's ridiculous.

[@danielmc99999]

@@wmp3346 180 - age is the rule, no doubt, but he had also discussed people who run with max heart rates at/above 180 and how this is dangerous, which I was interested to hear more about.

[@richardmiddleton7770]

@@wmp3346 there's not many 75 year old runners! But the 75 year olds who do run have probably been running all there lives and running at 105 heart rate is entirely possible.

[@wmp3346]

@@richardmiddleton7770 I doubt that, do you have any proof or support for your opinion?

[@KeithRobertson57]

Easy to get confused by ‘the formula’. It’s really just trying to give you a number for your Lactate Threshold 1. This is where your base blood lactate level starts to rise a little. This means you are simply starting to exercise to a level where the fat burning pathway has to be supplemented a bit by glycogen (sugar). Lactate is only produced when our bodies burn glycogen. 80% of your aerobic activity, when training, needs to be at the base level where you are not burning any extra glycogen. This will grow and strengthen your mitochondria, essential for LT health and fitness, aerobic power, etc. Do this for a long time and you will produce much more power and speed at exactly the same HR. If you are overweight, even just a little bit, it just means your mitochondria are ‘broken’ and can’t burn fat efficiently. So, use the formula as a rough guide, or have a blood lactate test to work it out accurately :-)

[@XX-is7ps]

I think there’s some key misunderstandings in this interview from the interviewee - they mention that vo2max is not a good predictor of marathon performance but I’m not sure that that’s relevant, it’s judging vo2max by the wrong standards - that’s looking at it through a blinkered view of the interviewees area of interest - because marathons are essentially low intensity ultra endurance events. If you look instead at events that rely on shorter high intensity efforts then dismissing vo2max as not linked to performance would be absurd. Fractional utilisation and other factors are clearly relevant too but vo2max is far from irrelevant. I’m a little disappointed that they are not challenged on this point.

[@brokengames9020]

1:09:40 He did consume sugars.

[@bmp713]

All MAF ever did was increase the duration of time I can go slow. It did nothing whatsoever for improving the intensity or speed I can go without running out of breath.

[@adomasjasiukenas1425]

On what anthropology science is this based on that we jogged to get food? Also, how did he determine that we ate high fat diets when in reality we were not. The skulls that been found of our ancestors and their teeth had a lot of signs of eating carbs and fiber, not so much fat but more meat. I do not understand where did you find this info, can we see the studies?

[@richardmiddleton7770]

Heart rate is affected by too many things, fatigue, hydration, fed or fasted, temperature, caffeine, slight illness etc. etc.

[@IT_Farhan]

I agree which is why I stopped MAF after 3 month since it seemed too arbitrary. I then did Zone 2 Karvonen (6 bpm higher) and then Jack Daniels's VDOT Easy pace. I will say that my gains have been slowing which is why I got interested in doing MAF again. There is a difference in RPE between MAF and the others for me.

[@richardmiddleton7770]

I'm a cyclist and ride with a power meter and MAF puts me right in the middle of my zone 2 power. It's also the middle of what Strava says is my zone 2 heart rate according to my true max heart rate (tested several times).

[@lauraon]

May be a weird question, but is oxidizing a lot of fats unhealthy at some point? I’ve heard that oils, etc. that go rancid (oxidized, right?) are pretty toxic. I’m so glad to hear this discussion of heart rates. I think of people who live in “blue zones” and it seems they live at a lower average heart rate. So many questions! Thanks for the podcast!

[@Burps___]

I didnt know that Dr. Maffetone is a chiropractor.

[@jcrackerjcrack6401]

Fail@science, i believe in 2024 we should have a Maf based on a vo2max reference point. My MAF is 130. VT1 98, VT2 135. Lactate city! Guess what, there is another 50 YR that this number might be perfect for.

[@andrewthompson9206]

I don't see how heart rate and gate can give you something like MAF 🤔

[@AlexanderMoen]

Heart rate correlates very highly with lactate build up which occurs more and more when you start moving into the anaerobic exercise zone, so it makes sense that a specific heart rate (even if it varies per person) would easily tie to maximum aerobic function. Gait is just tied to how efficiently you run, ie if you have a poor gait then it takes you more energy to cover the same distance at the same speed. As people speed up their gait tends to get worse too, kind of like how driving your car super fast gets you worse MPG.

[@kencarey3477]

Jim Fixx had a heart attack while running

[@barry147ca]

He was a smoker a d hadn't had a physical in over 10 years. Heart attacks in the family.

[@wmp3346]

I don't quite see the importance of staying in zone 2 if you are running 3-5 miles once or twice a week. Especially at in your late 50's/early 60's. My heart rate is much higher when I run versus when I do HIIT. I am not trying to get faster, just having a run at a comfortable pace. Great workout, no soreness good sweat and overall feeling of wellness.. I not buying his theory that I can't exceed 120 beats or I am hitting a plateau or overtraining. I don't race, I do workout everyday but don't have any soreness or signs of overtraining. Can someone elaborate? Pete's in hook line and sinker.

[@ahmedzikri5586]

The main idea with zone 2 training is to optimize your mitochondrial function by increasing number, size and efficiency of mitochondria. The best way to do that is by staying below your aerobic threshold, since mitochondria require oxygen to burn glucose and fat. Once you exceed your aerobic capacity and go over the lactate threshold of 2, you start activating the anaerobic pathway (burning glucose outside of mitochondria). You also stop fat burning since that can only be done inside mitochondria with oxygen. So, there is nothing wrong with jogging a few miles at a higher heart rate (zone 3) to increase your perfoemsmce, endurance and cardiorespiratory fitness. But if your goal is to optimize fat burning, mitochondrial function and metabolic flexibility (switching between burning fat and glucose depending on what is available and what you need to do), then you want to stay in zone 2 for most of your workouts with occasional bouts of maybe zone 3 jogging and once or twice a week short burst of zone 5 to boost your anaerobic system, Vo2 max, growth hormone and muscle mass. Peter is mostly discussing this from a longevity lense, though most endurance athletes spend most of their training in zone 2to boost their performance.

[@arthursosajr.2031]

I think the overall athlete is getting worse because everybody gets a participation trophy for finishing a Marathon or Ironman. But I think that the elite level age group athletes are actually getting faster and the top age group times are getting faster in these endurance events as more athletes are now training with coaches and also better athletes are now competing.

[@pat557]

When Guys like Kipchogi are training the MAF way, ppl will listen. Sorry, but Until then...

[@marksummers6903]

2 points: 1) Kipchoge isn’t training for optimal health, he is training for optimal performance. There is a difference 2) Kipchoge (and all elite marathoners) run far more easy miles than hard miles. Yes he does these lung-busting intervals on the dirt track and it’s fun to watch, but that is the cherry on top of 100mpw of aerobic, oxidative running

[@88tongued]

Weird how on keto people exercise with a heart rate 10bpm higher than when they're eating a more carb heavy diet, even with salt and fluids

[@richardmiddleton7770]

It's the other way round! For me at least! As soon as I eat carbs during exercise my heart rate goes up (cycling, same power using a power meter).

[@88tongued]

@@richardmiddleton7770 same higher heart rate for carbs with exercise acutely, but a higher daily carb intake lower heart rate

[@dinomiles7999]

Fraud ????? Maybe. Not his work .... ?

[@alainbrunner6658]

Hey Peter, I would imagine someone with an intellect and audience like yours, you would use your voice and say something about the current completely unscientific pandemic response. After all, nobody will ever achieve 'optimal health' if they are locked in their house. But hey, keep talking about meaningless stuff and lets ignore whats happenig around us. Great idea!

[@iamkerenlouise]

Maximizing aerobic fundtion for optimal overall health is far from meaningless; there are othe YT sites you can get your agenda fulfilled Sir.

[@chopchopbc]

Lol - thanks crank.