(1744) Does Bitting Make a Difference?

[@Akisame-LuigI-O]

Timer easy lock: 6 seconds Timer hard lock: 150 seconds The easy lock was 25 times easier to open

[@tmd63]

I got 6.76 for the easy lock and 2mins 29.47 for the hard one.

[@Akisame-LuigI-O]

@@tmd63 then it's 22.1 times easier to open the easy lock. Exact time I got was 6.46 vs 149.64

[@OLLE3770]

Bitting makes a difference, that's clear. What I'm curious about is a comparison (same bitting) but with standards and spools(?) in different locations. What I'm after is - should spools be used in high or low cuts? Are they better in low cuts far back or far front, high cuts back/front? And the same for serrated, barrels etc. I've seen quite a few videos where after a gutting and examination I can hear a comment like "this spool never really came into play". This is for pinning your own lock of course. If I have a lock with standard pins and I want to re-pin it with some security pins - where should they go and what type should it be?

[@SkyAsh]

Of course you couldn't rake the second lock, you forgot to say the magic words "c'mon baby, rotate" on that lock.

[@SesamoPicking]

I’ve been thinking about this for a while, and in my mind I have this list of what makes a lock harder to pick (in order, first item is the one that makes it most difficult in my opinion): 1 Tolerances (mostly because of tension) 2 Key bitting 3 Keyway 4 Secutity pins 5 Springs What do you think? Would you change the order? or what other aspects of a lock would you add to the list?

[@bosnianbill]

My vote would put keyway at the top of the list. I had a Burg Wachter padlock living in my naughty bucket for several years. It was a 7-pinner (kzbin.info/www/bejne/p6Conotrn652ibM) with good tolerances and spools. It did, however, have one of the most evil keyways I've ever played around in. It wasn't until I started using custom picks in very thin thicknesses that I had a chance of opening the darn thing. In looking through my naughty bucket now, I find that most of them have super-paracentric keyways that I can't even access the pins in.

[@parapicktog7734]

Sticky pins. You'll get nowhere with dirty rusty locks until you clean and lubricate them.

[@-42-47]

I'm still a noob when it comes to picking but looks about right. If I find a lock that's fun to pick I usually get another for comparison, if it's too hard I look for simpler bitting or vice versa and the difference in difficulty is huge.

[@Melds]

Number of pins/wafers, secondary locking mechanisms (e.g., primus finger pins), and access (e.g., mounted puck lock, Bowley) unless you're including that in the keyway. Also, unusual locks that require custom picks are more difficult if it's new, though after you have the pick that doesn't matter for difficulty.

[@stevenpam]

I'm also a noob at this, but I have to agree with Bill. You won't get anywhere if you can't get in!

[@ccadama]

@Bosnisnbill. Thanks Bill for the video. Watching and listening to you work is both educational and entertaining. Love the rake, love your mannerisms. Hope you and your family stay safe and well.

[@curtcoleman]

I learn something from every video. Sometimes its something subliminal about how you hold or move the picks that sticks in my brain, and it always helps me later on when I am picking. Love this channel. Thanks!

[@bf3949]

It’s great to see two identical locks up against each other, one with good bitting and the other less than. Results validated by an experienced pin wrangler!

[@brogren802]

You picked that quicker than most kids pick their nose.

[@wburger2178]

I have a old rusted Zenith lock with a similar profile. Bugger to pick.

[@obijanjebrave]

I am always talking on my channel how bitting is important, and suggest to people to first look at the key (if it's possible), and then to buy the lock.

[@parapicktog7734]

Severe bitting is my worst enemy. I have a hard time reaching high enough to set a short pin in the back when there is a long pin in the middle. With that type of bitting, the order the pins set in makes a huge difference. When the long pin sets first there is less chance of pushing it up too far when working on the shorter pin at the back, but if the long pin sets last then by the time the back pin is set the long pin is already shoved up too far. This is why I like picksets with a good variety of hooks, so I can find one deep enough for severe bitting, but not so deep I can't work it into the back.

[@MrSanemon]

I would say it kinda boils down to three categories that affect difficulty. 1. Mechanism Access (Can you touch it, do you have to get to it at weird angles.) Paracentric keyways, weird warding like the Bowley lock or internal obstructions (like ball bearings in the core) 2. Mechanism Feel (Can you feel when it's 'right', does it offer feedback, does it falsify feedback or does it tone down feedback?) Varying spring weights, security pins, gritty dirty locks etc. 3. Mechanism Activation (How hard is the pin to push in, does it release easily? Can you rotate the lock, does it false set or counter rotate? Are there extra elements, magnets, sliders or is the core mechanism just more difficult (Disk Detainers) Bitting always effects #1, but sometimes it might change binding order or feel. Spools effect 2&3 but not 1. When it comes down to it, you can deter pickers by giving them no feedback, no tension or no access. The best locks do all three or even invent new ways to piss you off. Realistically it doesn't matter if the lock has no feedback if you can't get to the mechanism or tension it, or if the tensioning of it does not give away a binding order. Medecos are not secure because of their keyways, or their bitting, they are as secure as they are because the mechanism itself, an added element. So realistically, feel is the least important. So I'd say 1.Mechanism used 2.Keyway 3. Bitting 4. Security Pins and (most) false gates The number of things that can affect difficulty is really astounding. Someone just handed me a rusty masterlock No.3 and I couldn't rake it open because it's so gummed up it feels like there's chewing gum stuck to the pins. So that's a wrap right, for a truly secure lock, make it as dirty as possible.

[@roysammons2445]

The front cover on the 3D printed case (ther big round hole) is for rim cylinders not euro's, right? Well that's how I see it working.

[@MikkoRantalainen]

Definitely. If euro cylinders actually had this kind of front cover, snapping would be much harder to accomplish.

[@bramsoff-grid]

The eurostyle locks are installed the other way around. The round part should be on top. Love to see them picked in the right orientation. Greetings from Belgium.

[@Kwaq84]

My thoughts exactly. Picking it the way he does is easier, because when you set driver pin, key pin becomes "loose", as there's no spring tensioning it anymore. That'll help you detect oversetting of the key pins.

[@stevebabiak6997]

Kwaq84 - thanks for explaining why there is a difference when oriented one way vs proper way. The loose pin drops in a favorable direction when picked upside down (which is what is happening in this video).

[@philliplay8550]

Come join the respect the euro cylinder campaigne at lockpicking101. In pick fu, called picking licks upside down.

[@lokichoki_]

I worked on a ABUS 65/40 for hours, I saw you rake a false set before SPP and I followed suit and opened it immediately. The second time it just raked open

[@KDP_Beaver]

That 3D printed device is fantastic. Top marks to 3Dlocksport(?).

[@vlf0lh41]

Have you tried sanding down the thickness of a pick? I don't see why you couldn't take a commercially available pick in 0.015 and bring it down to 0.012. A lot less work than making a pick from scratch. I would go for the book method with 80 or 120 grit sandpaper and work my way up from there for the final finish.

[@bosnianbill]

Good theory. Have you actually tried it? It doesn't work nearly as nicely in real life as it does in our imagination. It never sands evenly and you end up with thin spots in places, weakening the pick. It is much easier to simply start out with thinner material so begin with.

[@vlf0lh41]

@@bosnianbill I have not. Thanks for the insight

[@rissole50]

If you had access to a surface grinder, to thin one down would be easy, also only thin down the length of the lock, this would reduce flex. Has anyone tried this?

[@vlf0lh41]

@@rissole50 Maybe the poor man's surface grinder would be sufficient. Bonding the pick to a rigid bloc of aluminum with the masking tape and superglue technique; and then sanding on a piece of glass. The pick would need to be new so that it is perfectly flat to start off with

[@bosnianbill]

@@rissole50 The key point here is "If you had access to a surface grinder..." Yes, if you had access to a (multi-thousand dollar) surface grinder you could conceivably thin down the material. Surface grinders are not perfect and often don't grind equally along the entire length of an object, bit it IS possible with enough time and effort. You could also get 1000 monkeys to sand pieces of steel, hoping that a few of them would eventually get it right. WHY are we even speculating about this? Just buy the thickness of feeler gage that you want save yourself a lot of time, money and frustration.

[@zwz.zdenek]

Good thing I pick bitting on the locks I purchase to match what is considered "challenging." My father has a cylinder in a garden gate just like your "easy" key and it's so bad it sometimes stays in the "picked" position when you pull out the key!

[@malcolmjohnson9313]

Hi Bill, why do you always pick Euro cylinders with the pins at the top? In use in Europe the cylinders are always mounted with the pins at the bottom and suspect this may make picking a little harder.

[@bosnianbill]

Malcolm, I've picked Euros oriented both ways. No matter which way I do it, half of the population will say that's not the way THEY do it. Since I'm in N. America, and we install locks with the pins on top, that's the way I do it. In terms of difficulty, it is precisely the same level of difficulty either way. The lock does not care how it is oriented and the springs exert the same pressure. It DOES make the picking more difficult to video, as my hand routinely blocks the camera's angle, and that is the main reason I don't do it.

[@malcolmjohnson9313]

Hi Bill, I guess it must be hard satisfying all your supporters in different countries and as you say in North America the routine is to mount pin cylinders in the pin up orientation. I hadn't thought about the video view, but again I understand you want to give the best viewpoint. Just prior to my retirement, there was nothing more depressing on a cold wet night lockout with the rain running down my neck to be faced with an Evva or GeGe euro cylinder mounted pins down, it always seemed to take longer and more of a challenge than the same brands used as mortice or rim lock cylinders mounted with the pins up. I always enjoy the videos so stay safe and keep up excellent work.

[@Akisame-LuigI-O]

ooh that 3D print looks good. Could we get a source @Bosnianbill? I would love to print that myself

[@dragonblast9805]

It is from 3dlocksport.com ... I don't know about the patterns for the print though.

[@Akisame-LuigI-O]

@@dragonblast9805 thanks. If they don't have it public I might draw it myself

[@Akisame-LuigI-O]

Okay, they don't have it public. The design seems simple enough to do with autocat.

[@Akisame-LuigI-O]

So I got a few messages asking how to do this in blender. It is fairly easy. The screw thread is the most difficult one but you can use this to make it easily kzbin.info/www/bejne/h2fSf52MbsZlgbc

[@tiocybot]

I like how 3d printing has become mainstream for more niche products because it doesn't require tooling for small product runs and complex items can be made to order relatively quickly.

[@dedsert9653]

why do you always pick the euro cyclinders upside down?

[@philliplay8550]

Join the conversation at lockpicking101. The thread is called 'picking locks upside down ' Keep the pressure on!

[@DONK8008]

Is picking the lock upside down easier or something? I always see pickers pick Euro cylinders this way.

[@jeffcameron7853]

so when pinning a lock a combination of short and long pins is a good idea?

[@iggymac3473]

Cool looking locks Im sure you will not have any trouble finding a lock collator for them sweet locks thanks bill

[@amateurshooter6054]

Thanks Bill

[@dormantat]

I always thought it was "bidding".

[@jimithegamer]

Same here. I'm not a native english speaker and this took me by surprise!

[@johnrich6928]

I'm English, but because of American accents, so did I until I started to watch Lock Noob, that cleared it up.

[@markleng67]

@@johnrich6928 Americans don't have accents! It's you Brits that screw up the King's English! ;-)

[@Melds]

@@markleng67 I know you're joking, but that may not be too far off, at least compared with 18th century English. www.bbc.com/culture/article/20180207-how-americans-preserved-british-english

[@markleng67]

@@Melds interesting read! Thank you very much for the link! I certainly appreciate it, thank you again!

[@Polite_Cat]

They are different models, though.. one is only a half cylinder. I wonder if its possible one has less security pins?

[@MrJools70]

I`m running out of locks to pick on a lock down lol,starting to pick the ones in work now(not a good idea lol)

[@OLLE3770]

1) Never pick a lock you don't own or have permission from the actual owner to pick. 2) Never pick a lock in use (you can damage them and a proper locksmith will have to sort it out. Can become expensive - and perhaps involve legal issues and repercussions.)

[@MrJools70]

@@OLLE3770 Understood mate,I only pick the ones in work that are being replaced (and they are replaced every 8 weeks) :)

[@OLLE3770]

@@MrJools70 Well, I'm not judging. It was just a reminder for all of us. I've properly destroyed at least three locks while picking them and fortunately they where mine and on my desk. For those interested - two where Chinese disk-detainers with plastic disk-sleeves that broke under stress. Won't happen with a key but obviously can happen when put under tension and forced. The other was a lock with a too short pin-stack. No problem to open with a key, but when I picked it, it opened before I got to that last pin stack and small portion of the spring was dragged in between the body and the core and it seized. Managed to reset it and fix it. Glad it wasn't in someones door.

[@MrJools70]

@@OLLE3770 Oh yes mate,i`ve had a few casualties over the years that i`ve literally picked to death lol,(thankfully my own,,Because we replace the ones in work so often i`ll have to start swapping them with the guys on here,They are all `all brass` IFAM`s :)

[@scottpulley895]

Love your videos but most euro locks are installed upside down making then harder to pick

[@demetriusboyle5165]

That 3d printed lock holder can be bought on 3dlocksport.com. It’s a site by Tony Vitelli he videos on utube. He is also a lock picker.

[@thomasw.6945]

Hi Bill, i can bet, these cylinders are made(or at least ingeneered, licemced) in Austrian company EVVA, looks exactly like keyway type A, and design is exactly EVVA

[@marcdenning2476]

If your looking for a collector to give those locks to, give them to the Lock Picking Lawyer.

[@d-kay6668]

Feel free to disagree, but I think Bill should always pick Euro locks the way they are mounted in Europe. I can't help but feel it's kinda unfair to pick a lock differently than how it would be installed, provided it ofc ain't for mere training.

[@philliplay8550]

How right you are! I said the same thing in the comments. Join the conversation on this subject at the lockpick101 forum. The thread is called 'picking locks upside down' You will need to register to comment. Keep the pressure on!

[@firefly4f4]

Probably should have taken a look at the pins to make sure they had the same security pin arrangement as well.

[@tortex1]

He did say they're collector items so he won't gut them, but it does look to me like the first one doesn't have security pins unlike the second.

[@gkeyman565]

Nice little picking/test

[@oh8wingman]

Bitting has far more to do with a lock being tough in my opinion. If you have a deep cut in the middle of the pins it is much harder to reach past it to reach a pin that is binding without the deep set affecting your picking. Everytime you try to set the pins behind it you tend to false set the deep cut pin and when you release tension to get it to drop back down you lose any pins you have set behind it. Frequently I find that I have to use a larger hook to set the pins behind the deep set pin to avoid this problem buy if you don't have the key it can take a while to determine there is a deep set in the group. Just my experience. Warding on the other hand affects the gauge of pick you can use.

[@bradw0535]

Gonna have to try that line on the wife.. "c'mon baby, rotate". I expect limited to zero success 🤔. Thanks Bill!

[@kentbullard6917]

Tell her that's the line that Bosnian Bill uses and it works for him.

[@seatedliberty]

Let us know if you get an open. I'm so sorry, but I couldn't resist.

[@bradw0535]

Haha I'll keep you posted gents 👍🏻

[@theteenageengineer]

I like the 12 thou pick the handle is a nice green color

[@aphotic_soul]

C'Mon Baby Rotate is the new Click Outta One

[@user-rw3qq2sr1z]

Size(of the bitting) matters . .🤣🤣great picking, Bill😉👍

[@douro20]

I think ELCA was acquired by EVVA not too long ago.

[@rallock67]

Now pick them like they would be in a real door aka what we in America would say Upside down.

[@RWBHere]

Thanks Bill. The second lock took about 2 ½ minutes to open. P.S. We're all collectors!

[@bradfry5403]

I would like to see more Euro cylinders pick the right way up.when ever I clamp any lock up I try to pick it ,pins down,

[@penfold7800]

Hans Christensen? Let's hope the Lego vault is a bit more secure than the first lock!

[@DonzLockz]

Great 3D device. Yep, bitting makes a big difference.🤔✌🇦🇺

[@jdshenanigans9265]

Im renaming you the lock wispera. You talk them open and all that picking we have been doing the hard way lmao

[@LogicBob]

You didn't say the magic words on the second lock.

[@RAkers-tu1ey]

at first look at that first bitting, I thought rake, rake, rake. Even with spools, that bitting is terrible.

[@MikeKing001]

Wish he would have tried the first one again to see if he got lucky while raking it.

[@mikeodell5915]

Took u longer to put itin holder than to pick it

[@Romuls753]

Weird, I always thought it was "bidding"

[@Rocketlockopener]

Bitting, security pins,springs ect has everything to do with the difficulty of a open.

[@philliplay8550]

Your saying everything has an influence on how easy or difficult the lock is to open. Is that not obvious! Bill is trying to single out one particular aspect. But gave a false impression. Are the pins even the same. Plus it's upside down so not a legitimate open.

[@tortex1]

I would have liked to see some SPP on the first one to check for security pins. It opened as easy as a Master while the second one put up a fight. Is REALLY the bitting at play, or lack of security pins? Seriously, this is not a "proper" experiment. Use the same lock and driver pins, change the bitting between runs, then you see what's what. Heck, you have those training locks with changeable pins for your giveaways, use those.

[@johndododoe1411]

For European locks, please state measurements in metric, like 0.3mm versus 0.4mm picks, 0.5mm versus 0.6mm bitting steps etc.

[@falconmick]

Does bitting make a difference? A little bit

[@philliplay8550]

The second lock would never rake open with that bogota. It would overset the low cut pin. In MY experience, it's the combination of bitting and warding that can make a lock tricky to open. Bitting on its own rarely makes a significant difference if the right pick is used.

[@UnitSe7en]

idk, my laydee always tells me to stop biting. ymmv.

[@amurray0]

Nice

[@Westhelockpicker]

The first one took about a second the second one took about two minutes bud👍

[@Psianth]

Is that... is that a FleshLock?

[@matthewdobbie6740]

8 seconds

[@RustyorBroken]

Hans Christian you say? Last name Andersen by chance?

[@thatonecamel]

Early bird

[@ryanroberts1104]

I don't understand why people think "german" means "quality". They make shit just like everybody else. It's usually just excessively complicated to do the same thing. Ever drive a 10 year old BMW? They are "self totaling" before 200,000 miles...even a KIA can double that....

[@dragade101]

should have hide the bitting before picking