17th century Dutch Shipbuilding

The 17th century in the Dutch Republic in Holland is generally called The "Golden Age". This prosperity was mostly caused by the products of the Dutch Shipbuilding industry, which was very popular both in the Republic and abroad.
What 17th century Dutch ships looked like is very well known from all the beautiful paintings that maritime painters of the period left us.
But how were they built?
In this video I will try to give a comprehensive answer to this question......
🎞SHIPS AND BOATS FROM THE NORTH - The Renaissance Shipwrecks from Christianshavn:
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🎞Nicolaes Witsen and SHIPBUILDING in the Dutch Golden Age by A.J. Hoving:
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🎞The ships of Adel Tasman (17th century) - Jacht Heemskerck (1638) - Fluit Zeehaen (1639) + CD:
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🎞Dutch Merchant Ships (17th century) by Ab Hoving:
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[@davidkelsey2864]

I can't imagine how challenging it would be to be building ships for your enemy. So tempting to leave out every second nail, but no repeat business if the ship falls apart! These talks are becoming life lessons, ie in a very good way.

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

The thing is, the ideas of total war, nation are fairly modern concept. At the time true loyalties were to commune, religion, region; not so much to a “nation state”. That’s what made such transactions possible.

[@davidkelsey2864]

Ah, very interesting.

[@ostrowulf]

Yeah, deppending on the time, it was not wholly uncommon to have Dutch sailors on English ships, and at least at one point in the Anglo Dutch Wars, Dutch were using English pilots.

[@zweispurmopped]

Making the enemy pay to you for his war is not entirely a bad idea, is it? Plus, of course ships required by your own navy would have priority, so there would be delays in the production for the enemy.

[@Conservative-Leftie]

​@@ostrowulf...and vice versa...Hudson for example sailed as captain for the Dutch VOC when he discovered the Hudson River....

[@marcinmerchel832]

This recapitulation regarding beaurocracy was brilliant😊

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

Thank you! Very kind of you to say so.

[@marcinmerchel832]

@@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist Are You a Dutch? I live in Danzig where Dutch engineers had built a lot of great objects. Anyway respect for Dutch technical minds once for Galeys and now for ASML. Always on the lead

[@tommasobalconi]

Extremely interesting video as always, but this one particularly so for me. Never thought a variant of the ancient shell first technique would survive for so long in large ship construction! Although with a few variants and adapted for the needs. But most of all I found interesting the lack of plans needed for the construction, as was in the ancient world, in my opinion the most important feature of the shell first method that makes it so versatile. In the first century a compass and a ruler were the only tools needed to plan construction, as the hull shapes were based on arcs of circles and sinusoidal curves (the latter studied empirically as a wooden plank, fixed in the centre, with weights at the ends describes approximately such a shape). I wonder what criteria the Dutch used to shape their hull sixteen centuries later, though the shapes of the ships were much more complex.

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

Thank you for the interesting comment! Actually, the two techniques have nothing in common. They are conceptually different approaches to shipbuilding. In ancient construction, the Master shipwright was envisioning the vessel the way modern 3-D modelers do in 3D CAD programs: as a finished sculpted shape. The strength of the vessel as well as the shape was coming from the shell-first construction through the regular and closely spaced mortise and tenon joints. The Dutch system did not have edge fasteners at all. The strength of the hull was coming entirely from the frames. Without them, you could not hold the ship together. In some respects the shape was actually simpler than the graceful wine-glass shapes of the ancient world. Arcs remained the dominant way of shaping hulls pretty much until the 19th c in one form or another. Mr. Dick Steffy argued that ancient shipwrights must have used moulds in the construction of their hulls. Alas, he passed away while working on this. On the conceptual differences and philosophy of shipbuilding, Prof. Pomey, Kahanov, Rieth have written extensively.

[@tommasobalconi]

I can see the different hull conception given the Dutch style does not include a self-supporting shell for the bottom of the hull, although it is still interesting to trace a parallel between the two. The Dutch way would certainly make for a faster, and simpler in some ways, build. Prof. Marco Bonino, in his analysis of the Nemi ships' hull construction, ascertained that the ancient shipwrights used the outer shape of the hull at the centreline from the turn of the bilge, likely with the help of a mould, to shape the major portion of the hull. The shape was translated towards the bow and stern following the shape of the keel (which was flat for only about a third of the length), and rotated following the progressive narrowing of the hull. Though this is probably a more 'plastic' approach to the problem than what the Dutch intended for their own method.

[@savadrenovac3537]

This video explains many of my confusions about a model i got as a "gift". The reason for quotas is how i got the model, and it is rather interesting story if i say so myself. Bare with me please. My dad got a friend who has an aunt in Switzerland, and she has a Swiss husband, who is a professional modeler. He started making from scratch a model of Wappen von Hamburg from 1669, and stopped half way through planking. I never got to know why he stopped, and what happened to him, but the model somehow made way to the mentioned friend of my dad. They went out for a drink and came to the topic of ship modelling. My dad said that his son (me) makes ships, and his friend told him about his aunt and uncle, and he gave the model to my dad as a gift to me. I got the box, with GREAT excitement, and opened it, to see many things, some of which i knew of, and some of which i had no idea about. And now we come back to the present and this video, where i cleared my confusions about it, mainly, why was the bottom so flat and the shape weird. With the model i also got quite many of books about ships, which are on French and German, which i unfortunately do not know. Can you maybe tell me about a book on English about this ship or similar ones. Thank you in advance and sorry for such a long comment. :D

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

For which exactly would you like book recommendations? For the Wappen Von Hamburg if 1669, I do not believe there is any real information. There is an excellent study of the 3rd ship of this name, which often in popular literature is mistake. For the 1669 one. Actually need to correct myself! The contract and specs for WvH 1669 exist. They were published together with the booklet on WvH 3.

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

And yes, the specs certainly implied broadly similar vessel to what the Dutch methods of building- either the Northern or Southern - would produce. As To books about Dutch shipbuilding: Ab Hoving’s book on Nikolaes Witsen is excellent and leads you step by step. There is Cornelis van Yck’s book which you can find now and then, but it is in Dutch. The Flevoberichten produced by the Dutch cultural heritage agency is wonderful source of data on specific, usually smaller, coastal or Inner water craft.

[@savadrenovac3537]

@@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist Thank you very much, i will look to obtain that booklet, cuz i really wanna make that model. I actually do not know what those books that i have contain, but by drawings in them i can tell some are for modelers and some are for historians. Even tho i dont know the language, i think i can still learn something.

[@savadrenovac3537]

@@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist If there is a pdf of that book i will certainly get it. That period is one of my favorite, and i was always interested in how such a small nation managed to accomplish what they did. Thank you very much for the recommendation and this video, it was wonderful.

[@johnnya1717]

you need to hire a dutch to do it for you. just like good ol days

[@Pocketfarmer1]

There was also a major technological advance made by the Dutch just before this period. It was the windmill powered sawmill of 1594 by Corneliszoon. It is estimated that those mills could produce planks 30 times faster than men with pit saws. That is a huge change for cheap and fast ship building.

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

Yes and- no. This is true as far as it goes. But the major shipbuilding center of Amsterdam did not adopt saw mills until the late 17th c. That was because of the strength and political power of the sawyer’s guild. Wendy van Duivenvoorde discusses this in her book on VOC shipbuilding.

[@Pocketfarmer1]

@@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist What is this voodoo that both of you Batchvarovs use on us poor unsuspecting seamen to make us by more books?

[@fredericrike5974]

Awesome! There are still cultures doing that today. Loved the shot at the bureaucrats! But they left all sorts of written records to tell about how and how much it cost, so I guess it's a wash.

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

I love old-time bureaucrats! You are right: the paper trail left behind is extremely useful indeed.

[@torstenmay204]

Kroum, I have the impression that you feel more and more comfortable in your role as KZbin lecturer. Its getting really interesting for us followers, and we certainly profit from your enthusiasm. Keep going. I cant wait for the lecture on English treatises. Best regards, Torsten

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

Torsten, thank you very much for the kind words! I have been in a few documentaries, so the camera does not scare me. It did take some persuasion to get me to agree to start these videos. My part is only the talking. The actual video production is done by the “Sister Channel” :-). She is the one who films and puts them together. I am very happy that you enjoy them and I, too, am looking forward to the English Treatises.

[@DARIVSARCHITECTVS]

Thank you Kroum for another great lecture on ship history! Your discussion on construction technique of the Dutch is absolutely fascinating.

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

And thank you very much for watching! Glad you enjoyed it!

[@lor191ric]

Thank you Dr. Batchvarov, I was totally unaware of this method of ship building. This is why I thoroughly enjoy following your channel.

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

Thank you very, very much! The method’s name was formulated by Fred Hocker in his doctoral dissertation. The late Thijs Maarveldt called it Dutch flush construction, if I remember correctly

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

It is an ingenious quick and cheap way of building ocean-going as well as coastal craft.

[@pitanpainter2140]

Thank-you for this, I now have a better understanding of your Vasa video, and the construction mentioned there.

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

Vasa certainly was built in the bottom-based tradition: we have seen the spinnerpennen

[@ralphgoodwin-wilson8156]

Thank you for the lecture. I find that the background music is somewhat distracting from the content. Cheers

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

Thank you! I will pass on the comment about the music!

[@svankatwyk]

Fascinating. Thank you!

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

And thank you very much for watching and commenting!

[@roypeake447]

Hi Kroum, you may remember me, Roy Peake, Robbies cousin from Trinidad. We met when you were diving the wrecks in Tobago and I see you are still in the game. I just came across your channel, excellent, keep up the good work. I still cherish the book you gave me and the boots Jason sent me. Hope to see you again one day.

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

What a wonderful surprise! This really made my day! Of course I remember you! I had hoped to see you when I was in Trinidad and Tobago in March-April, but Annette and Wabba said you were away. Yes, definitely I am still in the game- if anything more than ever. Perhaps with some luck, we might even continue the Tobago project… who knows. For me it never was the same after Robbie passed away - he was a wonderful, kind and generous man. Miss him- he was a very good friend. The book you gave me has an honoured place in my library, too! Thank you for that! I hope to see you again sometime soon! I’ll pass the message to Jason, too. I’ll send you my contact info via Annette. Thank you so much for watching and especially for writing!

[@johnbarger4767]

Absolutely fascinating. More please.

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

Thank you! With pleasure!

[@scottyshipbuilder]

Fascinating. Thank you

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

Thank you very much for watching!

[@johnjohnson1709]

So much information, thank you.

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

Thank you and glad you enjoyed it!

[@genojoe3176]

Always informative and timeless. Keep it going!

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

Thank you for the kind words!

[@eucitizen78]

This was fascinating and interesting. Thank you for the video. 👍

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

I have been a long-term admirer of Dutch seafaring and shipbuilding!

[@Gobber04]

Very interesting and fun to watch video, keep it up :D

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

Thank you very much! As long as there are people interested in watching, we’ll make them :-)

[@martinaalderink7773]

Spijkerpennen was perfectly pronounced. Thank you for this story. Me as a Dutch modeller (kinda) am thankfull for this episode about Dutch Shipbuilding.

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

Thank you very much for the compliment! I do read Dutch, but I can’t, alas, speak it. I have had the deepest admiration and fascination with Dutch naval history and shipbuilding in the Golden Age for many years now. I am sure I will talk about Dutch shipbuilding again at some point.

[@RaduB.]

A very interesting episode! It seemed crazy to build structures like that, yet there were, as you presented, clear advantages in using that method. I also had a few questions but you already answered them by answering to other comments... Thank you!

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

Thank you very much for the kind words. I am very glad that you enjoyed the video! I am always happy to try to answer questions.

[@Scheepsbouwer]

Nice video, but a critical note about the way ships where build during the second English war by the Dutch. There is no historical proof these ships where build in the bottom first method (shell first) actually a lot of these ships where build in the south of the Netherlands and there was another building method, called frame first. Discribed by Cornelis van Yck. This method was similar to the bottom first method started from the bilges. Only after the keel was layed down they didn't start with the floor but with a few frames and floortimber. This method was as quick as the bottom first method. There are 2 builds on SOS one of Maarten and on of me (steef66) where a lot of info of these builds to find. We both build bottom firt, but also mentioned the other frame first method.

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

Oh, yes indeed! The Rotterdam shipyards certainly built as per Cornelis van Yck. This was not the only way the Dutch built. But it does seem to have been dominant in the Noorderkwartier and northern Holland, probably in Zeeland, too. Ab Hoving built a lot of experimental models bottom-based. I think, he, too, is on the forum, though now builds mostly card models that still look incredibly. Just in this video I ended up concentrating on Witsen’s method because it became too long. In fact, it was intended to be a chat about Dutch contemporary models…. Never got to it :-)

[@Scheepsbouwer]

Fact is that these Dutch builders where fast. Personally I believe that every harbor in the Netherlands have a way to build these ships. There is to much nucleair about how and what. All is open for discussion. I like your video, because you give a short explanation of the very different building method of the Dutch. A lot of people don't know this. They expect that all ships where build by a paper plan and not by a list of measurements. Another thing I'm convinced about, but can't proof, is that bottom first ships have the typical flat bottom, not a curved one. Especially on the bow it is flat and round. No curving to push the water away from the bow. But like I said, there is no proof, just experience in my build.

[@Scheepsbouwer]

Nucleair = unclear

[@ostrowulf]

Cheers, loved the video. I came to be interested in this from the table top game Blood & Plunder... and my intrest in Dutch specifically is because it is my buddy's force.

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

I am glad you are enjoying it!

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

I am aware of the game and even have a few of their miniatures. The ships even are decent-looking. What’s off-putting to me is the misuse of terminology typical for all these game rules: Black Sails by Warlord, Blood and Plunder/ Oak and Iron and many others.

[@yxx_chris_xxy]

In this case, I can recommend a manuscript suggesting a method of calculating hitpoints for ships by a pure geometrical, compass-and-straight-edge construction, written in Latin but beautifully illustrated, that is kept in the Pepysian Library in Magdalen College, Cambridge. I don't remember author name or title, but I remember that it was used as a support for one of their gaming chairs -- the black one with the beer can holders -- which had lost a wheel...

[@zweispurmopped]

Wasn't it the great success the La Couronne was that changed the ways of ship design and building? I remember reading that this was the first time stability calculations were the key for shaping the hull of the ship to achieve certain characteristics like a reduced list higher up the wind and very good damping of roll that were achieved with her. Despite having to compromise due to having to be able to enter fairly shallow harbours, she could keep fighting the deep drafting English ships in adverse conditions like that. That suggests to me that the focus of attention changed from the economics of building to the capabilities of the ships rather. Anyway: Highly interesting video!

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

La Couronne was approximately contemporary with Sovereign of the Seas. I have not seen a reference to a stability curve calculation for her or any other vessel until the 18th c. As to displacement calculations, Mathew Baker proposes such in his Elements of Ancient English Shipwrightry in the late 16th c. Though Anthony Deane’s version is better known. Prior to the establishment of the line of battle as major tactic, individual sailing qualities were valued highly. After that he became more important consistency in speed between the ships. . The 17th century was a very dynamic - much more so than the 18th c - period in ship design. I very much doubt that La Couronne alone deserves the credit.

[@zweispurmopped]

@@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist Sadly I only had the book from which I learnt these bits of info from a library, and it's well over 30 years ago that I read it. For the life of me, I can't remember the exact title or author.

[@andrewjones1649]

Great lecture this afternoon. Thank you. More on Prince Rupert as we briefly mentioned in 'chat' please.

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

I shall be delighted! As I said, he is my all Time favourite historical character and Admiral. He proved himself an excellent administrator as head of the Admiralty Commission, too- no matter what little bureaucrat Pepys may have written!

[@andrewjones1649]

@@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist My wife is a Pepys fan. Apart from reading about him, she often goes to sleep at night listening to the BBC dramatisation of the diaries. When I mentioned that 'relationship ' she muttered something about them not 'getting on'... 😉

[@JJ-rc4sc]

What also maybe was helping the cheap timber we bought from Sweden, we bought wood in Sweden for a cheaper price than the people in Sweden bought it in their own country

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

Until the Great Deluge of the 1650s, much of the timber- the straight timber specifically - also came from Poland. Vasa for example was planked with Polish oak, which was exported to Amsterdam. The Hybertszoon brothers bought it there and exported it for Sweden. There is so much that modern third-world poorer countries can actually learn fr Dutch maritime enterprise of the Golden Age! The Netherlands were poor of resources but rich in enterprise and hard work!

[@bengilbert5610]

Dr. Batchvarov, how did they determine the shape of each plank (spiling). In frame first construction they used the frame as a reference point to lay a spiling batten against, but here there is no frame. Were the cleats that temporarily held the planks in position installed first and used to lay the spiling batten against?

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

This is actually an excellent question! We do not have positive physical evidence of the actual process. It is likely based on experience, of course, but also some aids that were used to keep them flush to each other. In general, they may be a bit shorter than in other wrecks and also they were less concerned with spreading the scarfing and butts that shipmodelers like. I suspect that much of this was achieved by bringing the plank to the bottom, marking and then cuttting and dubbing until it fit the intention of the shipwright

[@tedr.]

Very enjoyable and educational! It seems that bureaucracy always mucks up the works!!

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

Hahaha- doesn’t it just?

[@homemadehistory7537]

That was again a realy nice video with an very interesting topic. But how the dutch came to follow the bottom based construction for large vessels? To me this seems to be by the need of the east india trade. ( just a theorie ) For the east india trade they needed a vast amount of cheap ships because they know that they will loose at least 30% of the ships, maybe more, so to make it pay off with max profit the ships need to be build fast and cheap. Regarding the lack of resources for building materials, it has to do with the india trade as well because the dutch were concentrated on luxury goods and were almost the only resource for some spices. This give a perfect base for trading contacts in midle europe. and for sure the ruling dynasty of the dutch, the house of Orange had good contacts as well because they are basicly coming from a wooded region with a lot of ore mining, the Siegerland and Dillenburg region. ( thats were I am coming from :-) ). The oak coming from denmark and germany and the spruce coming mainly from the black forest region of germany. It was supplied on the river Rhine with lage floats. There is a feary tale of the dutch Michel who sold his hart to the devil to take part at the wood trade and become rich but cold harted...... The iron ? maybe from the Siegerland as well, because it is one of the closer production areas but maybe from sweden as well. Oh that is auch a nice topic.... I grew up 20 km from the Ginsberger Heide. That is the place were Wilhelm of Oranje called the silent , gathered the army to break the siege of Harlem by the spanish. kind regards Roger

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

Thank you for the comment! Yes, much of the timber came from the Schwartzwald. Prince Rupert in 1677-78 would also suggest buying timber from there for the 30-ship programme. As far as the method and East India Trade. The method actually predates the involvement of the Dutch with the East Indian trade by centuries, likely as not. Well, at least archaeology seems to say so. I do not believe the two are connected, though the method did help them build faster and cheaper. That’s why everybody was buying ships from the Dutch. Wendy van Duivenvoorde discussed double-planking found in early Dutch retourscheppen in the context of the East Indies and Dutch bottom-based construction. Excellent book, hers, and very well-worth reading

[@dumbear169]

Thanks, once again, for a fascinating and informative video Kroum. Apologies if this has been mentioned in comments before. Are there similarities to the bottom up planking methods used in Norse longships? Would these techniques share a common origin?

[@dumbear169]

Thanks Kroum.

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

No, the methods are completely different. For one, the Norse tradition is clinker, while the Dutch built flush. As to origins, I doubt it. The bottom-based construction may be derived from Romano-Celtic shipbuilding.

[@dumbear169]

Thank you for the clarification. Looking forward to your next video.

[@rudirednose1903]

Great review. Did you consider the milling-sawing of planks which revolutionised the process of producing planks? Invented by a dutch miller? I think that was the second reason for producing fast and cheap. Greetings from a dutch sailor - SV Erlano

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

The thing is that sawyers' Guild in Amsterdam was powerful enough that they banned the sawmill from Amsterdam until sometime later in the 2nd half of the 17th century. This undoubtedly upped the efficiency of the Dutch method, but I believe it was not the only reason they out-built everybody else. It had also to do with brilliant and efficient organization and, to me, most of all with the ingenious approach to building. I find Dutch 17th century shipbuilding and seafaring absolutely fascinating! I wish somebody would write novels Ala Patrick O'Brian about Dutch seafarers in the 17th century!

[@rudirednose1903]

@@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist Thanks for your answer and the more insight into this development. It`s a pitty the Dutch lost their inventiveness and abilities to build ships. They are complete out of the market. Thanks anyway and good fortune 👍, cheers

[@cajunrandy2143]

👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

Thank you!

[@herobrinesblog]

Will you make any videos on Portuguese ship building?

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

Good question… I might. Though there are very few examples excavated properly, vs destroyed by treasure-hunters.

[@yxx_chris_xxy]

I visited the construction site of the "replica" De Zeven Provincien in Lelystad before the fire there. I seem to remember that they had most of the frames standing but no bottom planking in place, not following the bottom-first method. Do I remember this wrong, did they do this wrong, or did some of the biggest Dutch warships get built following frames-first methodology? Thanks!

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

It depended whether they are built in the North or South. The Rotterdam shipyards appear to have raised a few frames after installing the garboards and before the rest of the planking. De Zeven Provincien was built in Rotterdam.

[@yxx_chris_xxy]

@@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist Cool, thanks!

[@yxx_chris_xxy]

Just for anyone who cares to see, I just found this photo (from that construction effort) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_ship_De_Zeven_Provinci%C3%ABn_%281665%29#/media/File:Construction_of_zeven_provinci%C3%ABn.jpg I can't tell the construction order up to this point, but the bottom planking is in place (though not in the bow?), but the wales aren't yet (except for one plank?).

[@Conservative-Leftie]

Also...the invention of the sawmill 2.0 had something to do with it...

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

Except that the sawyers’ guild prevented them from being used in Amsterdam until towards the end of the century as Wendy van Duivenvoorde demonstrated in her book. And Amsterdam was the largest builder. The sawmills were certainly a positive development, but do not appear to have been decisive in the first half to 3/4 of the century which was the highest point for the Dutch maritime enterprise

[@Hellspijker]

your dutch was understandable. no free tomato's for you.

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

You are far too kind, my good Sir! Thank you! I read Dutch - especially when it is about shipbuilding and seafaring, since the Dutch terminology is widely used throughout Europe and Eastern Europe: it came there through German and import via the Muscovite empire of evil. So for someone with English and German and deep Interest in the incredible Dutch Golden Age, it is quite possible to read and understand it. Properly pronouncing it, is a different matter as Dutch friends of mine have told me before :-)

[@Hellspijker]

@@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist The pinas from that book I plant to build as my 1st "scratch" build model. I have 1 more kit to do, then i'm gone try and build that pinas from the plans from the book. Although i'm not gone build it the historical way hahaha.

[@vendettamedianl]

We never should have allowed the Royals back into our beautiful country, we fought an 80 year war to be free of Spanish ones.. Long live the Dutch Republic!

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

Well, the decline of the navy certainly coincided with Wilkes van Oranje becoming King William III. He was a mere (not very competent) soldier, after all.

[@vendettamedianl]

​@@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist In no less than 25 years after our independence they murdered our Grand Pensionary and took back control. Just before before sending our great Admiral to his death only 4 years later. We never should have let a Royal family rule our lives ever again. The will of one man or woman shouldn't be above the will of the people. Same thing happened with the murder of Pim Foruyn back in 2002 collapsing our entire political rightwing after constant demonization in the media. Many things he said came very much true a lot of people find out these days. I'm curious to see how they will attempt to prevent our freedom party to form a new cabinet after their victory.

[@5thMilitia]

​​@@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist William III was competent. Not a military genius, but he was a good enough general. Not to mention that his reforms made the Dutch army into the most effective fighting force of western Europe

[@Incorruptus1]

Feedack: The switching of you cam position is distracting and quite irretating.

[@kroumbatchvarov-archaeologist]

I’ll pass the message, thanks