Rhythm of War: Characters and Relationships | SpanReads

[@ctom42]

I don't know what all the Teft slander is about. Saying he mattered just enough so that we would care if he died? Putting him on like the third tier of bridge 4 characters? Teft and Rock were the start of everything with Kaladin and were easily the two most important and interesting bridge 4 characters. Teft is also the one we have gotten to know the most about over the course of the story. I'd personally put Teft even above Rock in terms of characters in Bridge 4 that could be impactful if they died. "Could you imagine if it was Rock?" nothing, it WAS Teft and that's worse. And to immediately follow it up with Lerin apologism makes it even worse. Lerin is a great character, but he is an incredibly selfish person. His relationship with Kaladin has always been about what he wants, not what Kaladin wants. Hesina was the one who told Kaladin he could do anything after getting an education. When Kaladin joined the army to help Tien Lerin's response was "how could you do this to me." When Kaladin tells him he's stepping away from the battle his response is "you've finally realized I'm right." Every major decision Kaladin makes Lerin thinks of only in terms of himself. And the way he acts with the fused, going along with the occupation, keeping his head down, that's not due to the wars in the past, it's due to his feud with Roshone. He blames himself for Tien's death and thinks that resisting will only cause more pain. So he cooperates with whoever is in charge to a fault. He isn't unaware that Kaladin will be killed if he brings him back, he's so focused on his new philosophy of working within the ruling structure that he's lost sight of the original purpose of it being to keep those he loves safe. He's too tied up in his own self pity and guilt to see the contradiction in his actions. Also, there was no blood mixed with Lezian's hair. It's merely described as being the color of dried blood. I've read the book several times, including one quite recently and I don't recall any mention of him smelling bad, nor can I find it mentioned on the coppermind.

[@Stormblessed__]

Loved your discourse on Liren. Being a dad is really hard. I can’t imagine being a dad during a desolation.

[@JorgeMorge]

I feel Lirin gets a really bad rap with some readers, but I feel a lot of this is based off most our interactions with him being from Kaladin’s point of view. When you remove that kind of bias, a lot of his actions become more understandable.

[@sucette92]

Tough listen for someone who definitely enjoyed Teft more than Rock (and by far, Lopen). RIP King

[@17thShard]

Honestly I thought that take was weird to me too, Teft is top tier, but hey people are totally entitled to feel differently! -Eric

[@jacobyoung9981]

Teft’s death made me cry both the first time I read RoW and on a reread. Him fully accepting that he is worthy of love and dying happy and full of hope really just crushed me. I feel like it was a worthy standalone moment and not just a cheap way to make us sad. But I understand people resonate with stuff differently, so to each their own (i.e. I really struggle to resonate with Shallan’s arc). Great video!

[@juliegoggans8303]

Speaking of Tefts death.... Question (idk if this is a magic or character question.) Right after the Tien Vision. Tein says: Say them. Kal says: I've always known these words. Uncredited voice: Say it, Lad. Do it. Kal says: I accept it Storm Father.... I think when I first listened to the book. I thought it was either Tien or the Storm father. But on a re-listen and looking at it in a physical book. I think the, "Say it, Lad. Do it." Is Teft from the "beyond"-- or wherever dead Rosharians go. I'm curious if others agree.

[@Hippocratic_lirin]

This book cemented Lirin as one of the most interesting characters for me. It caused me to look back at Kaladin's flashbacks from WOK and focus on the lessons that Lirin was instilling in his son. Every Radiant ideal we see Kaladin swear was foreshadowed by Lirin's lessons. Even as a kid, Kaladin struggled with accepting that he couldn't save everyone. That was one of the major lessons that Lirin was trying to teach him. And saving Roshone's life even though he hated him, because it was right- third ideal in action. What would a windrunner look like if there wasn't a world-ending war happening? I think they would look a lot like Lirin. I can see Lirin as a windrunner with the hippocratic oath being a model for the kind of protecting they would focus on. The ideals are unique to the person, and I can see Lirin living up to his oaths. I personally think that if we see Kal swear the 5th ideal onscreen, it will have been foreshadowed by ideals that Lirin is already displaying.

[@Saturnine37]

Tell us the fifth ideal, then, Lirin!

[@Hippocratic_lirin]

@Saturnine37 I don't have a clue. But when Kal swears it, I'm going to immediately go back to WOK to check my theory

[@Saturnine37]

@@Hippocratic_lirin you have a few weeks before the book. Go look for it now. Please.

[@Arutha_Silverthorn]

I think one thing on looking back that saves Kaladin’s story is knowing the words of the 4th ideal, since end of Oathbreaker Kaladin knew he had to say them but that’s exactly what made him shut down. My personal contender for worst character is Lirin, throughout my read through I saw him as a very abusive Dad honestly. The Lawful Good Paladin abuser archetype that in my opinion was ripping Kaladin apart. For which I did hate him. Unless he really does have a trauma that explains his personality he is my worst character. Because all others from Moash Sadeaus and Amaram accept they are bad, Lirin does never accept his own flaws

[@karloswald407]

Lirin has trauma for sure. They talked about it in the episode. For a long time, he thought both of his sons had been killed. As a parent, it's hard to describe the feeling of even imagining my two children dying. I would be a horrific wreck and would probably consider the big "S". Lirin certainly could have been a better parent in this book, but the amount of trauma he carried thinking his two children were dead should not be dismissed.

[@Arutha_Silverthorn]

@ agreed it definitely is tough, however the response to being given a second chance is still reinforcing his own preferences. With the only attempt at engaging with his son back from the dead being “told you so”? In tWoK he is basically pacifist Moash and his mind set of anti lighteyes is what cripples Kaladin in WoR, then in RoW he refuses to change till literally his last line, unless he’s struggling with some kind of conflicting oath of his own… he’s basically a dad that paves and only accepts one path for his son. Even if Kaladin became president or Honor himself Lirin would be like “umm but surgeon so much better”

[@karloswald407]

@@Arutha_Silverthorn yoooo, so i've been watching Daniel Greenes RoW summary and i completely forgot that at one point Lirin was considering turning Kaladin over to the Fused. WTF MAN!! BAD DAD! BAD DAD!

[@joshwhite8862]

Completely agree with Adolin's emotional intelligence, the point that always drives it home for me is where even Kaladin realises it after everyone has left as to how isolated he makes himself usually except for Adolin who calls him on it.

[@Axartsme]

Totally agree with you guys on Lirin, I feel like this is where the community completely misunderstands him. I got in an argument with someone the other week who said he was worse than Lin Davar lol

[@havenschade8174]

Wow, that's a wild take

[@teknopathetik7986]

I think Lirin fits a very real moral code of believing that "it is not permissible to kill in order to prevent killing". Many cultures in history have taken true pacifism as their moral guiding principle. Quakers and Janes and Hutterites are all people that have made this choice and tried to stick to it despite many many cultural, legal, and personal problems this might create. Would I make the same choice as Lirin? Probably not. But Lirin isn't irrational or immoral for making the choices he does. If anything, Kaladin in Oathbringer was noticing how irrational it is to view Parshendi as "others" he can kill. There is nothing universally or obviously moral about making the choice to kill in order to save a life. It is a moral choice to decide killing is ever morally justified. And as Lirin points out, people believe in the morality of killing way more often than they maybe should.

[@juliegoggans8303]

I do think Tara-Odium is a more intersting character. But i dont understand why he is an antagonist against Dalinar/Roshar. His goal was to save Roshar or at least his country from what was coming. And he went to Cultivation, who presumably also want to save Roshar. So she Cultivated both Dalinar and Taravangian. So now that Taravangian is Odium--i dont get what his new goal is?

[@dunnejos8423]

It's about the Intent of the shard vs the Intent of the holder of the shard. We can already see the shard trying to influence Taravangian.vThe shard skews towards hatred and destruction regardless of what the wielder wishes. It's the perfect hubris for taravangian, if the ends justify the means, what is the ultimate conclusion of those ideals. How much sacrifice is too much? The Shard will absolutely take advantage of his willingness to compromise his integrity for pragmatism until he hasn't noticed the toll he's exacted.

[@juliegoggans8303]

@dunnejos8423 Yes. But I thought that took awhile given what we have seen in other cosmere books. I thought for the first little bit the new shard holder could wield the shard with more free will. And even then, I thought if the person holding the shard understood the intent of the shard differently that would influence things as well. Lastly, Cultivation was no longer scared of the odium shard holder. She's been pulling strings for this to happen.

[@elisewest6216]

24:28 never heard about that, if so, love it and want to know more

[@emblemboy]

This is bad but...I find that i tend to not like Shallan because I feel like Adolin deserves better. I want the world for Adolin

[@Stormhawk777]

12:00 There would be no Rock without Teft and you nerds(endearing) are way outta line disrespecting the old grump like that!

[@sucette92]

TELL EM

[@juliegoggans8303]

I love Teft! I was heartbroken with his murder.

[@deathsride1818]

Lirin gets every single spec of hate he deserves I am sorry. He is the antithesis of Kaladin. Lirin would kill defenders to save (including his own son). Kaladin would kill offenders to save. There is a big difference. Every single defense of him is about a father who has lost a son, meanwhile he would willing kill Kaladin, just makes absolutely no sense.

[@dunnejos8423]

Syladin is so cursed, I am hoping and praying it doesn't go that way it would be such a terrible use of the born sexy yesterday trope.