(1830) Choosing a Small Safe (Part 3)

[@dlevi67]

Excellent series, Bill, thank you - would have loved to see a TL-15 or TL-30 to compare to the Grade 1, but on a self-funded purchase it's understandably difficult (you'd probably need to buy a hydraulic trolley too!), and the 3 you have featured probably cover >95% of domestic use cases.

[@robertoswalt319]

Thank you for this series. There is a locksmith company near me that sells used safes and this helps me to make an intelligent decision in evaluating their products without, as you mentioned, the sales person's trying to steer me into buying something that isn't what I need or want.

[@William_Borgeson]

Bill, I haven't been in the market for a safe but man these videos are gold, nice in depth review and great advice, thanks for doing what you do!

[@volvo09]

Whomever gets that last safe is getting a NICE safe, great pick.

[@guiorgy]

Actually, all three of them are "nice". If you wonder what is not a nice safe, check LPL recent videos with safes :P

[@emmanouel8]

I used to shy away completely from electronic keypad safes/locks. I'm open to them now. Excellent series BB. Thank you

[@frankbiz]

Bill, you are the best salesperson for this product. Exceptional review!! Awesome quality safe for sure. Thanks.

[@twestgard2]

Speaking as a person who has spent a lot of time smashing walls and yanking things out of buildings, don’t use epoxy. It’s brittle and it’ll come apart with a good hammer blow. Instead, use a 1/8-3/16ths inch layer of construction adhesive. It’s far more resilient to physical attack.

[@bosnianbill]

Good suggestion! Thank you!

[@AnotherPointOfView944]

Construction adhesive? What is that please I am from the UK

[@justie1220]

@@AnotherPointOfView944 lowes.com/pl/Construction-adhesive-Glues-Glues-tapes/4294417392#:~:text=9%2Dfl%20oz)-,LOCTITE%20Power%20Grab%20Ultimate%20White%20Multi%2DPurpose%20Construction%20Adhesive%20(Actual,LIQUID%20NAILS%20Construction%20Adhesive

[@Maghanashi]

@@AnotherPointOfView944 Gripfill.

[@billsinkins361]

@@AnotherPointOfView944 Grab adhesive www.screwfix.com/c/sealants-adhesives/grab-adhesives/cat850076

[@BenButler1]

Great series @Bosnianbill Thanks for what you do.

[@bosnianbill]

My pleasure!

[@roysammons2445]

What fantastic information given here by Bill. If you are looking for a good safe or know someone who is, I would definitely recommend you point them in the direction of these videos. Great reviews Bill.

[@richardgoebel226]

So glad you brought up the topic of anchoring the safe. I have seen a check cashing store with the counters ripped off the wall above the safe. Then they tried to lift the safe with prybars to no avail. Then they were trying to rotate the safe back and forth succeeding at only smashing the drywall with the back 2 corners of the safe. The bolt was the same style in the videos only 3/4 inch thick. They did not get the $40,000.00 or so inside.

[@S.Clause]

Oooh I never thought about dorm rooms

[@Chuycabra]

Love the amount of info you've provided in this series! I'd also love to see what it takes to get into them! (For educational purposes and entertainment obviously)

[@novo1178]

Great safe and video as always, keep up the great work . Love the safe!! Great work Bill!!

[@rickstreifel4691]

Interesting that now when we see the higher end safe we start seeing North American size format locks. There is no relocker on that door. That notch on the bottom of the swing bolt is to prevent a forced attack on the handle. A relocker is a device that is independent of the locking mechanism that is tripped when a brute force attack is made on the lock. Someone earlier mentioned time delay locks. Yes, they are used by pharmacies (one example) to protect their narcotics. Where I live they are required to have a 5 minute time delay on the narcotics safe. A quality digital safe lock will not be able to be opened by manipulating the wires coming through the door. As Bill said earlier, the keypad is just that, a keypad. All the smarts are built into the lock INSIDE the door. Also, removing power should not bypass the lockout timer. The concrete that lines the doors and walls used to be of a special kind. It had a lot of vermiculite in it (going off of old memories here). The vermiculite would hold a high percentage of water and when the safe baked in a fire it would release this water in the form of steam to keep the interior temperature down. Not sure if this is still done today. This is why older safes no longer hold their fire ratings. Depending on your climate they generally are good for 5-10 years before the moisture dissipates. This is why you don't buy old, cheap, big safes.

[@bradw0535]

Another great, thorough review! You do a great job with these evaluations Bill, thanks!

[@josephtucciarone6878]

Thank you for such a comprehensive review.

[@andrewfarenci5085]

Thank you Bill. The series was very educational.

[@joefreer]

Shopping time!

[@peterkelley6344]

Thanks for the series. Hope you can do more like that in the future. Happy Holidays!

[@FallenKwisatz]

Such informative videos comparing safe features, thank you!

[@iamtoast3397]

First off I'm really appreciating this series. I'd love to see something about concealable safes, and to hear your opinions on the value of concealment vs. practical physical security vs. insurance compliant rated security (i.e. if something has sentimental value/is irreplaceable, you want absolute security regardless of your insurance company's opinion, whereas if something is expensive but easy to replace then it's more important to simply meet the insurance criteria) - having watched LPL and you for years, I feel like "sold secure" ratings and actual security aren't the same thing!! But more importantly: I can't unsee how much your cabinet handles look like googly eyes.

[@buildmotosykletist1987]

I'm a builder. This is pretty good. It would take a very noisy power tool about 5 to 10 mins to get inside. I'd need access to the walls so if it were in concrete, I'd need to tackle the door which would take longer. No safe can't be broken into.

[@brianhignett8954]

I believe it was Jeremiah Chubb, over 150 years ago, who said "The dearest thing you can buy is a cheap safe" so true ...

[@FBender]

I don't need safe, but man these videos are enjoyable.

[@pyratemage]

Thanks, mister! Excellent review as per usual.

[@Hagal77]

Great series! Thank you for your great review!!

[@deianvucetich6020]

Love this series!

[@bosnianbill]

Last one, sorry. My back won't tolerate any more...😀

[@Armbrust666]

@@bosnianbill Wait a minute... I see four safes in the thumbnail

[@bosnianbill]

@@Armbrust666 Good attention to detail! One of the dark gray ones was damaged in shipment and waiting fo return.

[@jaysworld6170]

Really appreciate your valuable information & insight 👍

[@DoctorHogmaster]

Thanks again for this nice and informative series!

[@karenstein8261]

Fire hazard doesn’t come from building construction, but from the furniture, clothing, etc. in the room. Safes typically have a burgling resistant inner vault inside a larger fire resistant safe. After a fire safe contents are soaked. This is not from the fire department. The contents of the safe walls emit water as they heat up. Place a bit of drywall on a BBQ and watch it steam.

[@bosnianbill]

Good point, but I think it is a combination of building materials plus whatever is inside the house. In Europe, fires are less frequent because most have masonry construction. Cooking fires often burn out kitchens, and wood stoves burn out rooms, but the buildings are still standing and have little damage. In wood construction, the entire house and contents become one huge bonfire, generating much higher temperatures and for longer periods of time. Insofar as the insulating material holding water...it does contain some depending on the ambient humidity level. If you put a dehumidifier (dessicant, drying tube or light bulb) inside, it is probably close to zero percent, and will not "steam". However, if firemen show up to put out a fire and spray water onto a hot safe that does not have heat sealing tape, the steam WILL infiltrate and damage or destroy contents. Remember, you won't be able to get the safe open for some time because the keypad will be burned off and wire insulation melted. It may take days for a locksmith to show up to open the safe. If the door leaked, the contents will stew in that hot mess and most surely be damaged.

[@Pyrolock]

A Time Delay Lock you mean (DAT; Delay Access Timer), NOT a Time Lock as on a Bank Vault Door -- Thanks for the review, you came up with some good choices depending on one's needs.

[@FlickinTheBudgie]

The shelf is heavy to stack gold bars on :)

[@bosnianbill]

Oh yeah! I keep mine under the bed.😀

[@dkamm65]

I assume the shelf was so heavy because it might be cheaper to use the same steel as other parts of the safe as it would be to buy a thinner steel just to use for shelving.

[@BuzzinsPetRock78]

Did you swallow your mic at the beginning? Are you ok? :P

[@bosnianbill]

Arggghhhh! No, away from the bench I use a lapel mic with a small Zoom digital recorder. Sometimes it brushes against clothing and makes unwanted noise. Other times the clip lets the mic rotate away from my face, and the sound is horrible - but still a lot better than the camera's mic. Dang, if only I had a film staff to help me out with that stuff...😀

[@terrystephens1102]

The “M” brand appears to be a high quality product worth the money.

[@james-p]

this series was very helpful, thank you!

[@Grant-vk6zo]

Great review

[@pcflynn1]

Thanks this is great info.

[@wolfbrave4866]

Question, Can we just cover the safe with fire brick it's like cutting styrofoam and offer a higher fire resistant also can cover it with wood for nice visual appearance and of course the wood would be the first to become cinders.

[@robertoswalt319]

That seems like it would help to make the safe more resistant to theft, but I think that the front would still be vulnerable to smoke and steam penetration as Bill mentioned as risks that this safe protects against with the multiple layers of sealing tape. Also, for the expense of the firebrick and other materials and labor, you might find it cheaper in upgrading to a better class of safe.

[@ulfpe]

Yes but it doesn't work on the door.

[@AlexPalilonis]

How do these stack up against less secure but larger "fire safes" designed for document and valuable storage. I'm more concerned about fire than theft but need about 2x the space these offer.

[@dlevi67]

Predictably... as in, if you want fire protection but really aren't concerned about burglary/theft, then a "fire safe" may work. Fire-proof cabinets generally offer fairly poor resistance to forced entry (think "gym locker" - see e.g. this video by LockPickingLawyer kzbin.info/www/bejne/aJjYp6qHq6qfd5o), but fire protection is equivalent or even better to that of safes like the ones illustrated by Bill in these 3 episodes - as long as nothing heavy falls on the cabinet because of the fire. You can also buy a larger safe - even though weight and cost tend to go up significantly as the usable volume gets larger.

[@msafes1991]

Hi Alex, we do sell a line a fire safes, msafes.com/product-category/pf-line/

[@DonzLockz]

Now I can become a safe salesman! 😁👍🎅

[@AnotherPointOfView944]

I googled msafe for the UK but it doesnt come up. Is it rebranded in the UKas something else. Or is there an equivalent available in UK? Please help

[@rtechnik]

It's just a resellers brand name. Look out for the security rating.

[@becomematrix]

Love these reviews

[@markmaugle4599]

What is your opinion of replacing some of the sand in the concrete with carbide grit? Would this help with drill protection?

[@dlevi67]

Yes, it does - but it costs significantly more and getting the carbide to be spread around uniformly isn't as easy as it sounds.

[@rogerherring772]

How about putting the lock cam down the floor mounting hole to see what the box construction is like if possible,

[@bosnianbill]

Yeah, I tried that and it is a welded pocket. Nothing to see.

[@firepicker5174]

Great review!

[@robertberger8642]

Still good, after all this time!

[@Not_Sure_]

How about using a cutting wheel to cut the side or back open ?

[@jaysworld6170]

Unfortunately I can't fit in my sailboat I live on in oceanside but still enjoyed the video thanks Jay

[@Mainswitch55]

I had a M-Locks 3520 a few days ago, got it open in under 10 minutes ;-) If you know exactly what to do and where and what to use they open pretty quickly... Same class "B" of course and EN 1300 certificated of course too. Kind regards from Austria and keep going, Christian PS: The plate inside the door is not agains drilling attacks, if you screw your safe to a wall that seems impossible or doesn´t make sense right? The plate protects the lock and the boltwork against the insulation if something fails or if it is exposed to fire i guess... Anyway i tried to open a safe once that was unlocked but was exposed to fire, it is really really hard to open it believe me, those stripes are sealing it and it is very tough to get in after fire!

[@invisiblestacker]

Is there a comparison of the European s2 v the ul rsc available? I can find the process involved in meeting rsc I standard but haven't found a similar explanation of s2 process.

[@invisiblestacker]

I asked that of msafe. They answered it very clearly. I bought the psb 360 based on these videos.

[@saber0089]

Do you think MSafe is good deal considering their prices have increased 50-80% on their models?

[@john1313js]

Where can I buy this safe? the link in description doesn't work

[@Manatee360Phototography]

This safe would absolutely be worth the 1600 miles rountrip to pick it up, and also the extra mileage to take it to my dad as a gift who is looking for a good safe.

[@LH782]

I wonder how the locks' timeout logic would handle sudden loss of power. Years ago iphones had a bug where the phone first showed "incorrect pin code" on the screen and after that updated the internal counter: someone built automated system to enter codes and quickly disconnect power if the code was wrong -> unlimited tries. I also wonder if there is fire seal inside the bolt-down hole. I understand it is supposed to go against concrete floor but with inferno raging around, building collapsing and firemen hosing it with high pressure water jet there might be change for water to seep inside?

[@bosnianbill]

There is these "new" things, called capacitors and EPROMs. 😀 "New", as invented in the last 50 years. Capacitors hold a charge and provide power for a short time (days or weeks) even if the external battery is removed or dies. Think of it as backup power. The EPROM maintains the state of the lock and combination, even if the power completely dies. When you re-apply power you pick up where you left off. These vulnerabilities are tested ad nauseum as part of the ECB-S certifications. iPhones are....not ECBS tested. For that matter, Apple barely even tests their software patches before release - in my opinion.

[@michaelking3327]

@@bosnianbill.......and that's why iphones are always broken! lol!

[@Funiek1]

I have a 6 class safe it is the Best 1000kg, two locks. From Poland!

[@holymackerel]

Have a great retirement and thank you for all you have done!

[@rayl6599]

Interesting contrast- U.S. designs tend to use spring loaded relockers instead of trying to keep the lock attached via bolts, etc. to protect against punching out the lock.

[@msafes1991]

The lock has an internal relocker, the safe has security design elements that act as "relockers". A lot of security is provided by things you can't see. There are different ways to protect against punch attacks. Depending on the security level of the safe, our designs are as secure or more secure then the U.S.

[@robertphillips9017]

You don’t always get what you pay for but you always pay for what you get. Take a cheaper safe and you pay in reduced protection.

[@scott_meyer]

Does it have hours of operation feature, so it can't be opened outside of business hours?

[@bosnianbill]

Not in a class B lock. Normally, the timers are separate mechanisms and not found in safes this small.

[@scott_meyer]

@@bosnianbill Way back when I worked for Diebold, they were simple wind up timers. Small safes usually had two, Vault doors had three. First timer to run down allowed the door to open. Back in the 70's there was an incident at a bank in Omaha. The manager overwound all three clocks on a Friday evening. So the door would not have opened Monday morning at the correct time. He realized his mistake, but instead of calling us to "unwind" the clocks, he turned around the cam that releases the locking mechanism. He thought he had disabled the timeclocks, but instead he had permanently locked the vault door. It took many hours to to get into the vault through one of the concrete walls.

[@dlevi67]

@@scott_meyer Let me guess - the bank manager was not known as "the sage of Omaha". Good anecdote!

[@davidmorgan939]

looks like msafe no longer offers the PFB line of burglary/fire safes

[@Aaron48219]

Hey Bill, any idea on why safes with internal hinges always have a lower fire rating? I know these are meant for more security than fire, but why not both?

[@bosnianbill]

Aaron, I don't think that is necessarily true. I have one safe with internal hinges that has a 90 minute fire rating, and new one with external hinges that is only rated for 60 minutes. My impression is the hinge placement is purely a design choice.

[@lightweight1974]

But will the safe mfr guarantee to open it if the mechanism or electronics fail or are purposely destroyed?

[@msafes1991]

Are you asking what our warranty is?

[@Orgelfan62]

This is a typically Safe Resistgrade 0 or 1 in Germany. Common Price is ~600$

[@1stfacts542]

We want to see you break into these safes....

[@bosnianbill]

Sure. I spent a little over $2000 on these three safes. Buy some safes and send them to me and I'd be happy to do destructive attacks. No? Ah, it's EASY to waste someone ELSE'S money, huh?😀

[@1stfacts542]

@@bosnianbill This texting stuff killed my point. We’re good 🤝🤝 It was only a suggestion 🥃🥃

[@ulfpe]

If they have concrete inside they could user grit blast sand instead of normal sand. It will be nasty for normal drills

[@SomeTheorist9090]

Why Epoxy and not Quick Dry Cement?

[@eyescream5313]

Would love to win this giveaway. My last small safe got broken into and I lost a 9mm, some jewelry and a few family heirlooms. /:

[@Michelle_Miller]

So 3 cuts with a concrete saw?

[@john1313js]

Is that 1 bolt enough to hold it to the floor?

[@msafes1991]

Yes, it is. Anchoring strength is part of the testing for security certification.

[@jimjimmy3367]

Floor safes and vault doors next?

[@tctc0nsulting]

Why not knock the key-pad off and play with the wires?

[@bosnianbill]

Most criminals do exactly that. Play with them how? The electronics are inside the safe and the keypad is just a keypad.

[@Billah453]

Before I enter, what would be shipping to Eu?

[@rtechnik]

It is made in the EU.

[@Billah453]

@@rtechnik its about the giveaway... Which is send from the us...

[@cherrybacon9790]

So sad this series ends with class B equipment, the real stuff starts with C class locks, proper relockers and tamper trips, 2-factor authentication (Eg. Key and PIN) etc.pp. However, I know how expensive such things are as a tech myself- but a C-class save lock on its own would be worth a video i guess (and much easier to purchase/ship...) Anyways- great- the world would be black'n'white without bosnianbill ;)

[@Ben-tz9sm]

Bill are you santa? I hear jingle bells in the background. Is that why we never see your face? (Joking, i know why, its because of your "job")

[@TheOverloaded1]

All safes have "Drill Guides" for locksmiths, in the event the code is lost, lock damaged or ... fire. This shows how to get the safe open.

[@msafes1991]

Are you saying this video shows how to get the safe open?

[@TheOverloaded1]

@@msafes1991 not at all. I was just stating a fact. He talks about drill resistant plates and the that a lock smith would be able to open it after a fire. A drill guide accessible only by licensed locksmiths is how it is opened ... after a fire or unrepairable damage.

[@dedge511]

Where's you get that light, man?

[@bosnianbill]

Costco! 3-pack for $12.99

[@dedge511]

@@bosnianbill thanks for replying. There's no Costco around me so I'll have to look online. Those would be way more convenient in some situations than the lights I currently have.

[@andrzejsamorzewski146]

Why shelf is heavy? Because you can fit more than 100 kg of gold on this shelf.

[@twjohnson1203]

Well this series didn't help my potential safe cracking career at all!

[@guiorgy]

In fact, it probably dissuaded any potential desire to do so in all of us :P

[@cameronrich2536]

Cabinet under safe has googly eyes

[@LCFTW93]

So is it a coincidence that all three safes were MSafe? I'm curious if this will be a boom for their company lol

[@siffoine]

He explained it in the first video

[@LCFTW93]

@@siffoine Thanks, I'll have to go back and rewatch them

[@bosnianbill]

No, I looked at several different manufacturers, comparing prices and safe types - then followed up with online research to see how well real customers felt about their purchases. I also spoke to several locksmiths with safe experience. In the end, I found that MSafe offered each class of safe we wanted to look at (at a reasonable price) and would ship all three on a single pallet (and only one shipping charge). It made the logistics a lot easier and allowed us to compare like-sized safes with different security and fire ratings.

[@Real_Tim_S]

@Bosnian Bill @3:44 "...there's some certain things in a commercial lock that you really wouldn't need as a homeowner..." yeah well, I still like my Kaba-Mas X-09 on my Hamilton container... I don't think the word "need" was allowed near the cost question ;-) ( kzbin.info/www/bejne/gXmuk3tonr6keLc )

[@bosnianbill]

Yeah, same locks we use at work. A quick google search shows them priced at $1346... The newer X-10 are quite a bit more.

[@rsaunders57]

None of these has a mechanical lock, at the $1K price point I'd have expected an S&G 8550 or some battery-free solution. You don't want that disgruntled employee to connect those 9V batt tabs to the power lines and leave you an un-openable safe.

[@bosnianbill]

Current price on the 8550s is about $250. We had them at work until 8-9 years ago. One day someone forgot the combo of their office safe. The security guys showed up with a mechanical, servo-controlled auto-dialer and had his safe open within an hour. It did not instill confidence. That can't happen with digital locks...

[@bjosch4365]

‼️ Just don’t put guns and bullets in safes with electronic pads ... if EMP attack ... no access to your guns‼️ ... and the lock pickers won’t be available ...

[@1stfacts542]

🥃🥃

[@finmand1338]

With all that sealing going on it makes me wonder what happens if the safe is in a fire and some combination of items create pressure from the heat and boooom!

[@VSNxx]

I am planning to buy an MSAFE PSB 220 safe box. Can the MSAFE PSB 220 safe box be open as people are able to open poor design safe boxes on the following youtube videos? If Not, please explain why not. kzbin.info/www/bejne/n2jKXoesmN-jidksi=qigyoIe1UlmLTTQW and kzbin.info/www/bejne/j2fGi6WfmquqY80si=Ynj84MkIpSRNWeri

[@rfekztjpkrpd4988]

no details about a advertised security measure, sounds like bullshit...

[@dlevi67]

Or sensible precaution?

[@davidck1]

5:20 he? that sounds like a she

[@dlevi67]

Hell hath no fury... but spitefulness knows no gender

[@davidck1]

@@dlevi67 yeah come to think of it that's some s*** I would do

[@-dystopic-]

It’s so interesting to me that insurance companies will insure that in much money/valuables in a little safe like that. I guarantee I could cut that whole thing right in half in under 10 minutes with my demo saw. I’ve used that thing cut through 20cm steel plate (that’s ¾ of an inch for you American weirdos) with no dramas whatsoever & it eats through concrete like it’s butter. I suppose the only issue would be the noise, but chuck on some high vis clothes, steel cap boots, maybe even a hard hat & carry a clipboard under your arm with some bullshit plans printed on it & no-one is going to seriously question what you’re doing walking into a house/building with a huge saw & then making a bunch of noise. It just seems nuts to me that compainies feel like these are secure enough to insure that much value inside. Btw guys, I don’t advocate doing this. Prison is not a fun place to spend your time at. Even though they have a whole bunch of locks in there, they won’t even let you pick them.

[@livinthedream7714]

20 cm plate?.....