1858 Pietta shooting with lube on chambers - Part 2

[@boomstick4054]

Having watched both videos, it appears to me that lube is a necessity on the 1858 Remington .44 blackpowder revolver. Not only for easier cleanup, but possibly to prevent flyers/accuracy issues. So obvious, I won’t shoot any way but lubed. The old timers were right, go figure???

[@troyspence4423]

I used to do a lot of cap n ball shooting back in the day. Always lubed if I was target shooting, but if I was keeping one loaded for an extended time for defense purposes I used cornmeal filler to stop chainfire. Less mess. Powder stays dry.. Shoots fine.

[@jackjones9460]

I’ve been wondering about the lube melting during warmer weather. I expect it’d be a problem in Texas or Louisiana.

[@wonder-bred]

Just my speed for saturday morning! Thanks.

[@independentthinker8930]

I do a complete teardown quite often, definitely before storage of any length of time

[@TheDoug9901]

Pioneer sticks I get a white dust no lube very clean shooting

[@MichaelMiller-od6pu]

Very interesting and helpful. Very Thanks

[@jeffshootsstuff]

I wonder if there was any leading due to the lack of lube for the first three cylinders. I also wonder if loading one off the gun and then reinstalling every shot introduced some variables. Interesting video, thanks!

[@oldranger3044]

True that I had to re-position for each shot. Can't be certain of course, but my bet is that a couple of the shots without lube were actual flyers. I have had similar things happen with the 36 calibers when I've load 6 and some shots just aren't were they should be. I'm thinking about some paper or possibly felt in front of the ball so I can load 6. Also I think I can get by with paying attention to the spruce so it is not on the side. I didn't see any leading when cleaning, ant the barrel did come whistle clean, but with a lot more patches and water. No signs of leading were observed. I think that fouling really gets pressed to the barrel by consecutive shots. Just a thought, but seems I read somewhere that there might have been a difference in the charcoal used in the day compared to now. Do you suppose that the stuff burned differently and the fouling was softer ? Maybe someone has already done some work in that area. Here's a quote from The Muzzleloading Cap Lock Rifle by Roberts: Page 169 " With good, clean, moist-burning powder it is UN-necessary to wipe, or clean, the bore of the round ball hunting rifle after each shot,..." but goes on to say that the Dutchman said : "When target shooting...accuracy is generally much improved by wiping the bore..." What is interesting is that there may have been a difference in powder then and now. What is "moist-burning powder"?? O.R.

[@daveyjoweaver6282]

Thank You Kindly! Very helpful. These are things I wondered about. Many Blessings and Happy Shootin with those Lovely guns! DaveyJO in Pennsylvania

[@oldranger3044]

Thanks Dave. O.R.

[@mkshffr4936]

Would be interesting to see if the old trick of blowing across the barrel to keep fouling soft actually helps.

[@oldranger3044]

Will need to get a bent tube and blow into the barrel muzzle, sort of like the BPCR shooters do, only they use the breech end I believe. I think it could work. O.R.

[@bphidehunter]

Excellent, thank you!

[@kevinbietry7527]

By having the ball more towards the front of the cylinder I am confident you will get better accuracy because the ball won't get sheared so hard by the forcing cone and rifling.

[@oldranger3044]

That would be because it isn't traveling at max speed ?? Sounds reasonable. O.R.

[@davefellhoelter1343]

I was thinking of a lube layer preventing a good bind of the fouling to gun, but now you got me thinking of wads under the ball to keep it proud to the forcing cone?

[@kevinbietry7527]

@@davefellhoelter1343 it’s the same as shooting a modern revolver if you have a judge or a .357 or something if you shoot a shorter round in a longer chamber the bullet seems to deform or suffer in accuracy somehow presumably the bullet when it slam dunks into the forcing cone.

[@james_lessick892]

Very interesting video, thank you for the info. Well Done. 👌🤠👍

[@lorenray9479]

Your shooting reminded me of my dad saying no pistol for you cause you can not hit the broad side of a barn with one. Then when a deer was hit by a car, dad called the local cop, who popped a hopping deer in the head at about 20 yards. He was shocked beyond belief. We got the venison legally as a reminder not to underestimate the ability of a pistol! And an experienced shot!

[@davefellhoelter1343]

I lube to help with cleaning? and chains. Never gave accuracy much thought? Never put a wad under a ball, but why not? maybe it would help with cleaning and accuracy. Darn it! now I need to test fire more! Thanks AGAIN Sr you always make me think, or Re think. Keep your Smoke Poles SMOKING!

[@oldranger3044]

I’m afraid I go a little overboard with the accuracy thing. In the 80’s I did some competitive shooting at Friendship (NMLRA) championship shoots, and one flyer would drop you a class, two and you might as well start cleaning your gun and head home (or to the nearest bar). Probably because of that, I’m not as interested in just hearing the ‘bang’, or seeing its penetration or ‘knock down’ potential. Even shooting the timed fire event there is 5 minutes for 5 shots, so a misfire or jam can be cleared, so reliably wasn’t much of a concern. Because of the above, my first concern is how capable is the gun. So, I shoot (at least at first) from the bench and test various loading techniques to get the best results. In the competition world, most agree that a wad over the powder decreases accuracy. It probably helps to prevent chain fires, although some believe its the nipple end that is the first concern. I’m not voting on this issue yet. I feel that if the fouling is soft, the ball will clean it out when fired. But, would that include the gloves? Probably not, unless the ball expands to fill them. No shortage of things to learn about or test. As captain ResLegs said “lots of work to do in Texas”. O. R. Here’s something to check out: 2020+NMLRA+RANGE+RULES.pdf

[@corneliussulla9963]

How was the cleaning of the gun? Was the residue burned to the barrel or was there no difference in comparison to shooting with lubricant?

[@oldranger3044]

Lots of difference. Check out the end part of this Part 2 video. O.R.

[@jimbasler303]

I have this identical model new in the box from Cabela's.... I hope it runs anywhere near this well. Another great video. Thank you Sir.

[@lorenray9479]

I just had a thunk! What if one were to put a small amount of the black powder cleaner/solvent lube that is a thick liquid around the top of the ball instead of filling the cyl to the top. If most lube blows out, is it possible for a varied amount to affect accuracy like in a long gun with a little bore clean lube versus a thick gloobering of bore butter that opens groups with ball or conical!???!

[@oldranger3044]

Someone in a warmer climate that doesn’t have 30 cords of firewood to cut before winter needs to work on that. I can say that I have shot some nice groups without being sure that there was equal lube on chambers. When I used to use only a small amount of crisco I didn’t have much luck which I now think might have been the wrong stuff, OR, not enough to keep fouling soft. Also often wondered if the first chamber fired that doesn’t have some lube blastes off will group differently. Lots to test, and just a cylinder or two doesn’t make it gospel. O.R.

[@StevenMMan]

So longtime no see checking in to see if you are ok? Also I am currently in position of all the original bullet molds designs I was working to obtain. 8- .31, 4- .36, 8- .44 calibers. Of the .44, 4 are designed for small colt/Remington @ 170, 195, 220, and 225 grains. The second is for Ruger old army/ walker @ 240, 250, 260, and 270 grains. Now these are the weights I have attempt to achieve. Not actual scales weight. The first run has not been molded yet as I just received the molds yesterday

[@oldranger3044]

Yes, I believe I survived the winter. At least so far. Hey, how many moulds did you receive?? Those heavy molds should be interesting. I've been working in the woods hopefully to earn enough money to keep up with the inflation. That way if supply loosens some, I'll be ready. Not that I'm concerned for this year, but a guy needs to plan ahead. At least my wife and kids will keep busy selling on Gunbroker. Your project designs are very interesting. O.R.

[@lorenray9479]

Now I am curious as to how the lube is enhancing the burns, like some lubes deasel in a pellet rifle? Cleaner by flowing out the unburned powder, or allowing the bullet more squeegee ability?

[@oldranger3044]

Great. Now I feel the need to run this again as close to the same as possible. We see a result that sort of calls for an explanation, theory, or reason. Hard to argue with the Chrono; I feel more results and data are needed, and as Captain Red Legs said, "Lots of work to do in Texas." O.R.

[@davefellhoelter1343]

I use the pellet skirt for Dieseling, not great for my accuracy but it HITS Much Harder! Never thought of a Fire Arm and this Affect? my DIY lube is mostly bees wax, but that's why Candels Burn.

[@johnndavis7647]

Have you tried 451s and 454s to see if there is any difference on paper?

[@johnndavis7647]

Are you using weighed charges? When I shoot a match I bring pre-weighed or at least pre-measured charges. I put rifle charges in 30-06 cases capped with 9mm cases. For pistols I put the charges in 30-30 cases with 9mm caps on top. I have a wooden cartridge box that holds 50 rounds Shooting a muzzle-loading match is a lot of work. With all the swabbing and measuring and pouring and ball starting and ramming it takes a lot out of you by the end of the day. Especially if you're an old guy. I try to do as much work in advance as I can. I use pre-cut and pre-lubed patches. I keep a patch on my loading rod so I clean as I load. I bring a folding chair so I can rest after my string while the other guys are doing things the traditional way. As far as pistols go in my opinion there are two loads. The first is a full power load. The charge is set so the ball sits just below the face of the cylinder and that's with slight compression. Lube is used over the chambers. This is 3f with a tight fitting ball. The second is a maximum accuracy load. This load is based on the volume of powder in the chamber when the loading ram is all the way down at the end of the ramming stroke. I figure out what that volume of powder is then I seat a thin cardboard wad of tablet backing over it for compression. Then I add a volume of cream of wheat to the cylinder to bring the ball just below the face of the cylinder. I lube the chamber or not depending on how the particular gun performs. Hope this is helpful. Thanks for the video.

[@oldranger3044]

Thanks Johnn for the detailed loading procedure for target loads. I understand the fatigue, especially in the heat. Five or six stages of Cowboy Action on a good humid day with temps in the 90’s. Maybe ok for some, but not enjoyable for me. Mostly I don’t weigh charges. I have done it but haven’t noticed really any improvement in group size. Of course, weighing would should give the most consistent load, but this isn’t smokeless, and we aren’t shooting 500 yards. I often shoot 40-50 per day, 4-5 days a week, and like I say, it hasn’t proved necessary to get the results I like. Thanks again. O.R.

[@oldranger3044]

I did a video on comparing the two. Have you come across it? Title is. Pietta 1858 - Shooting 451 VS 454. If you haven’t and can’t find it I can post a link (I think). O.R.

[@johnndavis7647]

@@oldranger3044 yes, if your handling of the powder measure is consistent Your charges will be very close to the same. I like a measure with a swiveling funnel on the end. I slightly over-fill the measure then I give the measure two taps with my forefinger to settle the powder then I swivel the funnel to cut off the excess. I let the excess fall onto a paper plate. I fill my 30-06 cases or 30-30 cases for the match and pour the spilled powder back into the flask. I doubt my hand thrown charges vary by a grain either way. You can't see it on paper inside of 100. Yards As you say, if I was shooting long range I would weigh every charge. There's a lot to finding accuracy. Especially with revolvers. Too much to write about here. Maybe another day. Thanks for all you do.

[@johnndavis7647]

@@oldranger3044 i will look for it. Thanks

[@453421abcdefg12345]

Without doubt the lube makes the fouling softer, I think the hard "coke" in the barrel must make a difference to the accuracy of the shot, that said, on your no lube test the flyers were at the beginning of each chamber full ? I think the only joker here is that the lube in front of the bullet gets blasted off, and lube under the bullet gets forced into the powder, the only way to go next is masses of lube on the bullet where it cannot get blasted off, or forced into the powder, this is all valuable testing! Chris B.

[@oldranger3044]

Yes, one of the comments, forgot at the moment who, but he was dipping the round ball in lube and allowing it to harden spruce down. Claims to have good luck, and it makes sense with the idea of getting it where it belongs. When hot it would tend to run down the ball and more might accumulate on the side that goes down against the powder. Something like pure beeswax maybe. I'm sure that the occasional flyer doesn't bother lots of folks in the first place. I don't care much when I did the shooting right, and it ain't where it should be. Have enough problems anyway without help. Of course, sometimes it can work to an advantage. Would like to be able to say that the flyers have a pattern, but they seem to occur at random. If we get down to it, even tossing a coin probably isn't exactly random as usually stated. There are reason's for stuff. We might conclude that the reason for flyers is hard fouling. But then WHY? And that opens a whole new can or worms. Thanks as always for the comments. O.R. Oh, something to consider. How come the loading got really difficult putting the ball down, compared to lubing. As you say, it gets blasted out the barrel. And what is put into the chamber is only down maybe quarter inch in the chamber. Possibly the gas that goes out the sides contains lube vapor and gets forced into the open fired chambers, giving them a slight coating. Just another theory to test.

[@453421abcdefg12345]

@@oldranger3044 I am sure you are right about the vapour coating everything on firing, the strange thing is, on a rifle I get a "star" of lube at the muzzle, but I never see that on a pistol, there is, of course ,much more lube in a 45/120 cartridge, but the barrel is also proportionally longer, I still want to try the lubed bullet with no lube on the powder, or in front of the bullet, but it would need a lot of lube , as soon as it gets a bit warmer I will make a big lube groove bullet mould to try. Chris B.

[@oldranger3044]

@@453421abcdefg12345 Been awhile since I did any 45/70 with black. (need to revisit that). I think I remember reading, and having it happen that not enough lube and the last section gets dry. That is the way some figure how much lube they need. You are spot on about the pistols. Looking down the barrel when using the lube, I notice the last 2 to 3 inches seems fouled, and that is where the cleaning rod seems to have more friction. I'm with you betting that if that can get solved, especially with the slow twist guns, that flyers might be a thing of the past (maybe). I have used quite a bit of lube and don't think that helped. Wouldn't think it all goes by-by at the barrel-cylinder end gap. Now that's got me thinking again. Better copy your comment to a spot where I will read it again when Winter finally gives up. O.R.

[@tommcqueen3145]

👍

[@StevenMMan]

Of course I find interesting thank you Sunday is molding day, though it is unclear as to rather or not has an appropriate revolver or not I'd like to send you a small sample. I am not an electronic tech guru how ever I think I know how we can get the ball rolling if you interested.

[@oldranger3044]

That would be nice, but I have no idea how that can work. O.R.

[@davecook5068]

Question for ya , did that 1858 have a trigger job on it and is the velocity start going higher because of the fouling ? I noticed the very first shot was around 600 + and then they went higher . I have not shot my black powder pistols thru my chronograph , but I will start researching the data when I start shooting again . Thanks for the knowledge and the videos you do , very interesting !!! Dave Cook

[@oldranger3044]

Thanks for the comment Dave. I purchased this 1858 at a gun show. No trigger job that I know of. Just checked, and it is right on 3 lbs, no creep. Many of my first shots are the lowest. Also, the string average seems to go up with each progressive cylinder. I feel it has to do with the fouling within the cylinders that makes a "tighter" fit on the ball, and therefor causes a slightly different burn pattern. This could be way off, but I think of it as something like how on the Saturn 5 rocket the clamp downs held till all engines fired, and had built up sufficient thrust. At some point I would guess that the additional fouling within the barrel would be a negative, maybe someone has done tests on that. I have fired without the barrel, and the speeds are way down. Suppose that would be a way to check out if the cylinder fouling is causing the increase. Anyway, thanks again for the comment, and as Captain Red Legs said, "lots of work to do in Texas" O.R.

[@cowboywoodard2569]

​@oldranger3044 love your video,where abouts are you in Texas, I'm in Flatonia Texas at our Ranch again a great video with your excellent experience. Thanks Cowboy

[@michaelhayes7471]

The last two piettas I got shoot alot better than the older one's I just use felt wads

[@oldranger3044]

44's or 36's? I've heard they upped their game. For my two cents, most shooters would only notice the difference between wads or lube when it comes to cleaning and that there may be an occasional flyer, but flyers are hard to trace down when shooting off-hand. The question then always remains, was the missed shot a bad sight picture, poor trigger pull, wind, something my wife fed me, fatigue,,, or was it a flyer? It probably won't matter unless it was in a match. O.R.

[@toddparks3550]

Hello sir, so I just ordered a pietta 1851 and wondering about flash over, I got wonder wads, and Remington #10s as I heard they fit well, should I put wads on the end or on the powder, both.. or should I use lube. What do you recommend?

[@oldranger3044]

As far as wads are concerned, they are placed after, and on top of the powder. They should stop any flash-over that gets by the ball. It is unlikely that any will get by the ball anyway because a correctly fitting ball makes a good seal. Some claim there can even then be a powder trail from a crushed grain that the flash could follow, but again, if this happens, the felt wad should snuff it out. If you don't use the wad, then lube on top of the ball is pretty much the way to go. You can of course do both, possibly an "over kill", but I personally believe that lube is better at keeping the fouling soft for better accuracy. This point has been, and still is, debated. Good luck with your new interest, It might at first seem like more work, but many enjoyable things start out that way. O.R.

[@toddparks3550]

@@oldranger3044 thank you old Ranger, think I’ll stick with the wonder wads for now, I’ve heard a bit about paper cartridges as well, do they work without any conversion or do you need a different cylinder?

[@oldranger3044]

@@toddparks3550 Paper cartridges work without special cylinders. It's a good question, because mostly the folks doing it are so familiar with the guns that probably they fail to mention, as it is obvious to them. I've read that most of the percussion guns used in the civil war were using paper cartridges. O.R.

[@ronaldkennedy2401]

hey ranger.still soaking up the info.one thing,I haven't been using lube.and i cant find anyone saying they've had chainfire.you seem pretty adamant about it.im starting to wonder if I'm taking a foolish chance based on what is being reported.i imagine that multiple chambers detonating at once would have some of those balls bouncing back off the frame.not good.do you know of people experiencing chainfire?

[@oldranger3044]

By younger brother, about 35 years ago. Of course we never knew why, but he still has a slight scar-right hand. Which end we'll never know. If it wasn't the first shot, than probably the left side, but was it a cap that fell off, or past the ball? As can be seen from the thumbnail photo, there is plenty of flame; a real flash of heat that is under pressure and looking for any area to pressurize that is at a lower pressure. Not sure if you saw in one of my videos (might have been the one on chain fires) where I put lube between powder and ball, and the ball had the spruce on the side, and lube was able to squeeze past on the side of the ball on seating. About all I can say is that it happens. Not regular, but others have had the experience.

[@johnndavis7647]

As i recall Elmer punched his wads out of old felt hats and soaked them in 50/50 mutton tallow and beeswax. Thanks for all you do.

[@oldranger3044]

Right. No doubting that it worked for him, and gave him the needed accuracy. There were I believe other things going for him such as gain (progressive) twist. The black powder he used might have been more moist burning, Ned Roberts makes reference to black powders that were moist burning. It might have been easier therefore to keep the fouling soft which seems to be necessary in the prolonged accuracy department. As you pointed out, this consistency from shot to shot is important, and if fouling changes (say by a continuous building process), then it isn’t a perfect day. I seem to shoot better with using lube. Actually, would be happier, and keep things like clothing cleaner and easier for my wife to wash, by using wads. Also could use up the two yards of felt and my stash of SPG lube if it out preformed the lube method. I feel Elmer is pretty much responsible for the interest in wads. I know,, I started with that plan. I also know I pretty much figured the guns just couldn’t get her done 50 years ago when I first started which caused me not to have much interest in continuing with them. Thanks for bringing up this topic, guess I got a little wordy. O.R.

[@johnndavis7647]

@@oldranger3044 Elmer started out with a 1849 when he was a boy using it on his trap line like we would use a 22 today. He had the benefit of listening to Cival War vets talk about guns and loads and they no doubt passed along some tips and tricks to a boy eager to learn. I would have loved to sit around a woodstove and listen to them myself. As you say, the guns Elmer would have had access to would have been originals with deeper rifling and with progressive twist too. Maybe i need to locate an original and see how it differs from a repro. 1849s are common enough that the prices are not terribly high. They knew their business when it came to making gunpowder back in the old days. I dont know how they would make a better powder unless they had better charcoal. Keeping powder dry has always been a problem. Back then powder was shipped in wooden kegs. Not really idea for keeping out moisture. I have read that grouse hunters in the 1700s would bake their powder in clay jars overnight in a low oven when they were getting ready to go on a bird hunt. This to ensure fast ignition from thier flintlocks and full power from their guns. I have thought about baking some powder in a clay pot in a crockpot full of sand on low setting overnight and crono the loads before and after baking and see what the differrence is. I don't like these modern plastic jugs they ship powder in today. I don't think they are as moisture resistant as metal cans. Another thing to experiment with is some way to get consistant wad pressure on the wads. I think inconsistasnt wad pressure is one cause of fliers. Maybe a scale set up some way on the loading bench. Thanks for the video

[@dlh1947us]

🤠🤠🤠🤠🤠

[@nikitamckeever5403]

Lube for me 👍

[@Beowulf395]

the new shooting season is to about to begin ........ the weatherman is calling for 40's and 50's this coming week

[@oldranger3044]

Right, it's closer. Afraid I'm a little more north, probably another month here. O.R.

[@Beowulf395]

@@oldranger3044 Wisconsin here... it's up and down for the next 4 weeks

[@Master...deBater]

I've always just pre-lubed the bore before each string of shots. Keeps fouling soft...and I've never had chainfires (knock-on-wood). I also use this technique with my 66 Winchester and BP cartridges.

[@oldranger3044]

I can see that working. I’m assuming you go in from the muzzle end on the handguns. Would that push fouling into a chamber (probably not a big deal) ? Are you shooting cast round balls? Sounds like you have a system that is working, so keep it up, Master. O.R.

[@Master...deBater]

@@oldranger3044 After cleaning the revolver. I lube all the internal parts, as well as the bore so it's ready to go next time I want to shoot. I can usually get through at least a couple of cylinders before lubing the bore again. I actually started using this method because I mostly shoot conversion cylinders and don't like internally lubing my cartridges. I generally lube my Colts from the cylinder end while the guns apart for reloading of the conversion cylinder. I lube my Remington from the muzzle while the cylinder is removed for reloading...that way I avoid pushing fouling into the chambers. I re-lube my Winchester 66 by putting an empty case in the chamber with the bolt closed...which keeps the fouling out of the chamber. At home I clean by turning the rifle, lever up, thereby allowing the fouling to drip from the ejection port rather than running down into the action. Sorry about the long dissertation...but I can understand how my technique may have caused some confusion. BTW...thanks for all the testing you do. It adds a lot of important data for the community to use!

[@oldranger3044]

@@Master...deBater I actually enjoy long responses and the information such as your comment. Valuable for myself and others. Thanks for the details. O.R. 👍

[@historichomestead]

"Chain fires" do not happen at the projectile end of the cylinder it happens at the cap end. They happen when an adjacent chambers cap falls off prior to the barrel chamber cap from being expended. Using grease or lube on top of the projectile does nothing. The results on this test are also pointless. Unless both "lubed" and non-lubed are fired in the same manner(not loading a single chamber at a time etc). The amount of time in between such shots would offer different barrel temperatures, expansion, and tolerances etc. So unless both tests are done under the exact same process and circumstances then the entire test is irrelevant and the findings are inconclusive.

[@StevenMMan]

So I just figured something out. I have try to give you my email to communicate more about my bullets. Everytime I put in the address YT deletes it. We have to fill in the blanks. im2amountainman. Of the Yahoo kind.