Conical Bullets - Will They Fit These 44's ?

Checking two popular conicals to see if they fit under the loading lever without modifications on several styles of black powder revolvers.

[@453421abcdefg12345]

I think that most of the trial fittings here would be so loose in the chamber that a chainfire would be inevitable, the slightly undersize first part of the Jahnson and Dow conical is the way to go, nothing is worst on a cold day than fiddling about trying to locate a conical in place over the chamber, and when the ogive hits the frame and tilts it, you have little chance of ramming it in square, I have tried some of these conicals in original Colts and they have just enough clearance, but whether you could load them under duress is another matter, the locating spigot makes it much easier, and when you make combustible cartridges it is essential, it is interesting that when the army used the Colt 1847 it i said that a lot of chambers/cylinders where blown up because soldiers loaded the conical in the wrong way round, although being still the same weight I can't see that would make a lot of difference to pressure. Many thanks for this interesting experiment OR! Chris B.

[@oldranger3044]

Thanks Chris. Great info as always. Right, I was having enough problems at 70 deg. I too don't understand why the blow-ups. One viewer on the 62 pocket video commented that some had 6 chambers, but one would think that most of them would go KaBoom. Maybe it is something about how pressure in transmitted around the nose. Possibly the bullet doesn't start to move as quickly, causing excessive pressure. Who knows. Very interesting about loading backward. Took me a second to realize that it probably wasn't because they didn't know better. Wonder if it was because of easier loading or more knock down power. Also, was a practice in the 44's. Keep safe and "warm" this winter. O.R.

[@453421abcdefg12345]

@@oldranger3044 Yes the often made comment that they did not know which way round the conicals fitted does not really ring true, even the most ignorant recruit would have had instruction, I think as it would be much faster/easier to load the wrong way round must be the answer, but it still does not answer the question of why the chamber should blow, the 1847 Walker was made with less than ideal materials , but I would have thought that as soon as the bullet started moving all would be OK, we can't duplicate the situation as original Walkers tend to be a bit expensive, I also wondered if it was to do with the pressure being forced outwards by the nose shape, but I would think as soon as the bullet started moving the pressure would drop, maybe it was just poor material and they blamed the blow ups on reversed bullets! I have just unloaded 20 Cu Mts of logs for the winter, so we should be warm, we still have 25 Cu Mts from last year! You take care! Chris B

[@jeffreyyoung4104]

The same thing happens when you put the bullet in the cartridge backwards, the pressure goes very high and can split cases and separate case heads.

[@adudeontheinternet1]

​@@oldranger3044 conicals if loaded backwards compress the powder differently possibly over compressing or leaving voids in the powder causing weird pressure spikes.

[@oldranger3044]

@@adudeontheinternet1 Good point. Just speculation but not only does the powder get compress differently (such as around the nose), but the blast pressure might go in the direction of the wall. Don’t know a thing about setting blasts but understand they can be directed. If this isn’t directed at the base, the bullet doesn’t start moving, and makes sense that overall pressure would increase. O.R.

[@mountainhomeplace489]

Very informative. Seems the designers of the Johnston and Dow knew what they were doing 170 years ago.

[@oldranger3044]

Right, I was surprised how it "turned the corner" due to the smaller base which as Mark says works well when paper cartridges. O.R.

[@ericv7720]

During the Civil War, conicals were rolled with powder to make paper cartridges. I'm not sure if they were pre-manufactured or done by troops using rolling paper, but having that rebated base probably made a difference!

[@oldranger3044]

I’ve read where factories actually made them. Such as the colt factory 36 caliber. Employed women and (maybe youth) because of the nimble small fingers. Doubt the military (most) had the time, skill, and favorable conditions necessary. O.R.

[@WORRO]

Buddy it's good seeing you back! As usual this was a very interesting and educational video. Thanks for taking the time to put this information out. Thumbs up Sir~John

[@stevelambert945]

There are no "roughly" dimensions. Only absolute.

[@mikepoteet1443]

I'll just stick to round balls.

[@ricardodelano2205]

there are some people whom like to make some thing out of nothing 54 , i have even made paper cartridges with the johnston dow bullets and the gd things fit with out any alteration remington new model army 44, remember the eras gone johnston 44 are made with a linger heel and not as the originals were made , nice video

[@Observer413]

Im glad i came across this vid, there are tonnes of vids about home fixing CnB revolvers to accept conicals, its good to see its not that necessary.

[@nc4tn]

Great vid. I was just getting ready to email Mark Hubbs with these questions, but you just answered them. Much obliged!

[@oldranger3044]

Glad to help! O.R.

[@davefellhoelter1343]

Nice! I have both! types. and I was just rolling some paper for my next batch of paper cartages! my last batch of papers needed some help to get my bullets deep enough for regular loading, so I made a press for loading my cylinders on the table. all looked like they cut rings and sealed for no chain fires. Keep your Smoke Poles SMOKING!

[@oldranger3044]

I need to try the paper. The flash paper I bought a couple years ago didn’t survive as well as I did. Seemed to just melt and that sort of ended that project. Your press should be a good addition, watch out so not to loose the wedge on newer pietta colt styles seems they changed something and now the wedge doesn’t stay with the barrel. O.R.

[@smartmeis]

im glad you made this, everyone said you have to remove metal, but id rather drop it in like you did on the pietta. i have a .36 but im assuming its the same.

[@oldranger3044]

Thanks. Originally I planned to also do the 36 as I have two conicals to check in several guns also. Checking the 44's got lengthily , so decided to do separate one on the 36 caliper guns if there is interest. I have the Lee .375 conical mold, and the Colt factory conical mold sold by Eras Gone. O.R.

[@smartmeis]

@@oldranger3044 those two molds seem to be the most popular, I like the Richmond mold but it’s hard to find, old west bullets makes a heeled conical similar to the eras gone, I’m interested in seeing how the fit is before I buy the wrong mold or pre made conicals. There’s very little information about the .36 caliber revolvers. .44 seems to be the most popular.

[@oldranger3044]

@@smartmeis Actually have the Richmond mold. Noticed Eras Gone has them back in stock. Haven’t used mine yet but planning on breaking it in so I will have that bullet to include when I get to making the video on the 36’s. O.R.

[@robertrobert7924]

Thank you so much for this information. I have only ever used swaged round balls, but after watching this I may try Johnson & Dow with flash paper and flash glue cartridges. in my Pietta 1860 and my Uberti Whitneyville Dragoon.

[@453421abcdefg12345]

Flash paper is the best way to go, none of that glowing nitrated paper left in the chamber, do you make your own flash paper ?

[@robertrobert7924]

@@453421abcdefg12345 No, flash paper is made using dangerous acids in a commercial setting. I do not recommend trying it yourself.

[@thezwerdz8560]

Thank you so much for taking the time to do this so thoroughly. I had wondered about whether this would work or not. Looks like a big ol no.

[@stevebradburn2892]

Thank you very informative

[@BigCarmine]

During the uncivil war, it was tedious loading issues like this that prompted troops to preload and carry multiple cylinders, giving them the faster option of just swapping them out. Very informative video. Thank you for the detailed comparison!!

[@oldranger3044]

Appreciate your comment, thanks. O.R.

[@BogeyTheBear]

Would have been much, much easier to carry around premade cartridges rather than a whole new cylinder.

[@robertkoonce8365]

Rounding the tips is the problem I've had with my Pietta revolvers. Getting ready to order the loading jig. They were out of stock for almost a year.

[@oldranger3044]

@@robertkoonce8365 👍 O.R.

[@wilmamcdermott3065]

Colt needs 454 diam

[@bowiebowie8171]

Each one of those 44 caliber cap and ball revolvers each Lee carnical bullet that you have will fit in those guns perfectly when you put them in you push it down and tell it clears the other side of the 1851 Navy colts and you're 1860s those rounds will fit any of those guns perfectly I am a civil war reenactor and a world war II re-enactor and a mountain man reenactor 1847 Walker Colt and it went down perfectly without having any problems in that cylinder it is made for all those calories none of them got stuck because the Lee carnacle bullet from log cabin is the precise dimensions of a original civil war bullet in a pistol carnicle bullet of the rigid of original civil war bullet they took the mold of that civil war bullet of a 44 caliber so it could fit all those type of guns without having any problems with it

[@Truck3r96]

I have a 1851 confederate navy in .44 I use .454 round balls. Tried the .451 and the. 454 were more accurate

[@michaelzacharko5097]

Wanted to mention that Lee also makes a 220 hollow point bullet for the Ruger old army and it has a body diameter of .456. Should try it out. I use it in rem army, Dragoon and Walker.

[@minicannons781]

It is pocible to shoot 9mm =cal 36 airgun slugs out of the the pedersoli saloon cal 36 ,, no patch ,,,powder cotton disk slug works fine ,,works also without this disk thing ,,,is it pocible to shoot them in revolvers too ?? ,,,,,a friend shoot them also backwards out of the saloon pistol diabolos and slugs like a hollowpoint ,,something like this apolo slug 9mm 2 diferent versions light and havy ,,,,,,,,,,,maybe thy are cheaper ?a alternative ?,,,,diabolos fit easy slugs a bit force

[@oldranger3044]

Hi, sorry to say that I don’t know enough about this subject to comment much. Possibly there might be a forum for the saloon gun that could help. Since the bore is probably .360 and a 9mm is .356, it might not need a patch, but then there’s the issue of will it stay on the powder. If it were to work its way toward the muzzle, that would be bad. There is also the load data issue because what is safe for a round ball may not be for a conical, and those are designed to shoot soft lead, not jackets. O.R.

[@minicannons781]

@@oldranger3044 ok ,,,thank you 🙂👍🏼

[@dylanschulz2404]

I just ordered the Lee Conical mould finally. Hopefully it will fit my chambers properly but if not it will go to the milling machine! I think a steel frame 1851 would make a sweet 45 acp conversion pistol. Thanks for the video!

[@skydogx4]

Why not remove the cylinder and table load it??

[@oldranger3044]

That can be done with all. It’s mostly the way I load, but others may want or need to load in the field, depending on situation. Thanks for this comment- question. O.R.

[@AnantaAndroscoggin]

Not sure I'll ever be ready to spend $300 for a bullet mold. How well (or poorly) do you think that the castings from the Lee 452-160 or 452-200 bullet molds do in the 1860 Army and other .44s of that era? Perhaps with powder coatings to slightly increase the bullet diameter towards that .454 goal? Or in paper cartridges? I do already shoot .45 ACP. Have you (like me) been tempted to buy a set of pin gauges that include chamber and bore diameters in the set?

[@oldranger3044]

Never looked into the pin gauge idea. Don’t figure I could ever go that much for a mold unless it was the only way I could use the guns. The Lee will cast a good enough bullet, problem I find is that the flat base on the cartridge styles makes loading difficult, especially when it needs to be slightly over chamber diameter to get a tight seal. A slight bevel on the chamber helps, but there is usually a long area that needs to compress (or shaved) compared to the round ball. My opinion is that the conical is probably better for knock down, but I like the round ball for plinking and target work. You can get more powder in the round ball load which somewhat compensates for it’s smaller mass. O.R.

[@AnantaAndroscoggin]

@@oldranger3044 In my first front-stuffer life back in the mid-'70s, all I ever had to shoot was round ball. (except for the .58 minnies in my Zouave.)

[@oldranger3044]

@@AnantaAndroscoggin 👍

[@finn1728]

8:30

[@jeffreyyoung4104]

I have tried many conical bullets in my .44 New Army and it doesn't flatten out the points too bad, depending on the hardness of the lead, and the tightness of the bullet in the cylinder. If I wanted to have perfect seating of conicals, I would machine the tip of the loading press, that way you can do both round and conical bullets with little distortion of the bullets. The conicals have never been a problem for my revolver, and I have even loaded LEE R.E.A.L. bullets when I wanted massive lead! However, I can only fit 25 to 30 grains of powder behind them. Now that I have a Chrony, I should measure the performance of the Lee bullets! Having mass with no velocity, does not have any power, so it would be a useless load! But that is one of the pleasures of black powder, as long as you use reason, you can experiment with your loads, just be sure to document your work! As for me, I don't retain much any more, as my brain is plugged up with lots of memories!

[@oldranger3044]

Man that is so right. Someone commented about why I have little tags on some of the guns. Suppose I could write the information down somewhere else but…… how will I remember where. Or the fact that I wrote it. Like Jose Wales said, “That’s just the way it is.” I find that with round balls, deformation of the tops (and there is quite a bit) doesn’t affect accuracy as much as one might think. O.R.

[@jfbft5007]

as you, i have both, Uberti and Pietta. Pietta work well with 454 Bullet but Uberti prefer 457, as the ROA. If you want use conical bullet in Uberti, use those of the ROA.

[@oldranger3044]

That makes sense to use the ROA in the Uberti with the slightly larger chambers. Thanks. O.R.

[@Strutingeagle]

If you file down your front sight for round balls, don't be a bit circumcised if the conicals are shooting high. The recoil puts mine about 9 inches high at 25 yards.

[@josephhaack5711]

Wow, circumcised huh? 😂

[@omnivore2220]

My Uberti 44s have .450" chambers, and I have one Dragoon what came with .452" chambers. The original guns took conicals no problem, as conicals in paper or skin cartridges were a standard load of the North during the Civil War. Therefore, modifying your guns to easily take conicals is merely getting them closer to an original gun. I highly recommend it. There's no reason why you should be fiddling around trying to get a conical loaded. They should drop in easily and seat easily. If they don't, then something needs to be changed so they do. Because of the design of the Colts, you will have to somewhat tip the bullet in. There's no way around that, but with the right bullet and the right mods to the gun it will be just as easy.

[@oldranger3044]

Thanks for your information on this. Interesting that your's are a bit larger than the Ubertis I have. Sure wouldn't work well on the Dragoon to be using the .451 rounds. Makes sense about the fit on conicals in the originals. O.R.

[@bradpitts289]

It would be beast to stay with the originals because you have to fumble around with conical leads round ones are quicker they are made to just drop in..

[@oldranger3044]

I like the round, I suppose partly because it conserves on lead which is becoming harder to get and more expensive. I do recycle which helps. I suppose the conicals have advantages since it is said that the military used them, and also cartridge factories. I don’t know enough to say if round were widely used in paper cartridges. O.R.

[@droberts1664]

I load with the press myself. I load 2 cyl its just easier. But im interested in shooting conicles

[@oldranger3044]

I’ve had good results with a couple. One is the 200 gr Lee in the 44’s, shot well in both the 1860’s and 1858’s. O.R.

[@paulbergson2439]

Great and informative information!

[@jason60chev]

On the Remington, thefirst position that you tried to load in is perfect for and designed for paper cartridges, as the forward part of the frame, just in front, is indented for the cartridge to insert straight in. I think if you compared with loading an original Remington, that youll see that theconical can be roated under the lever, from that position. The Italians make theseguns to beloaded predominately with round balls.

[@oldranger3044]

Thanks for this information . O.R.

[@mypetvelociraptor]

Great video 🙏

[@49walker44]

Great information

[@T30-z5w]

If you don’t modify the rammer for the J&D bullet you run the risk of tilting the bullet when you seat. It will go in tilted you can tell because it shaves more lead on one side. No es bueno. I modded all my 44s for paper cartridges with the J&D.

[@oldranger3044]

For benefit of those considering a mod, did that make the nose fit into the center of the rammer? Is the issue that the rammer designed for a round ball could cause the tip to be off centered? O.R.

[@T30-z5w]

Yes. That’s precisely why I did the mod. It wasn’t so much to avoid deformation but to make sure the pointed bullets don’t tip. It does help keep the point too. It still works fine with Lee conicals and RB. The only thing you lose is a small amount of seating depth since you’re removing metal from the face of the rammer which only affects a very light RB load when no filler is used.

[@ArgoPower]

Hi Old Ranger, do you think that instead of the Lee .450 maybe is safer to use conical Lee .452 ?

[@oldranger3044]

As far as I know, Lee doesn’t make a .452 conical mold for black powder guns. They do make.452 molds for smokeless cartridges. A .452 would make a better seal, therefore less chance of chain fire. But, the issue is getting that .452 bullet into a .444 Pietta cylinder chamber would be next to impossible. Using a wad or lube (or both) on the Lee provides good insurance in the Pietta guns. Uberti chambers are a bit larger, and if the Lee is cast around .448 then there could be a loose fit. Lube or wads should prevent chain fires, but during recoil, the bullets could move forward in the chambers. The .452 might seem to be a solution but still difficult to start in the .449 chambers. Hopefully this explains why there’s not a easy yes or no answer. O.R.

[@ArgoPower]

@@oldranger3044 thank you master!!

[@lawrencehudson9939]

The imported cap and ball revolvers have improved in accuracy and quality over the years and some dimensions such as the area that allows for seating the lead projectile have become more prototypical. The Lee bullet was designed back in the 70's specifically for the Ruger Old Army revolver so I am not surprised it binds on several of the replica revolvers. One of these days I want to try my Ideal/Lyman 454068 in the Ruger. That bullet is a 175-grain hollow base but is much shorter than either the Lee ROA bullet or the Johnson & Dow replica. Great presentation!

[@oldranger3044]

Thanks Lawrence. That 454068 sounds interesting. I couldn’t find it in my 1970 edition, wondering if it is relatively new? I also have a Lee for 36 that is basically the scaled down version of the 200 grain. Have had it for probably 35 years. It would shoot some pretty wild groups if I am remembering correctly. Those 36’s had 1-30 twists, I need to revisit this using the faster twists of the newer Uberties. O. R.

[@lawrencehudson9939]

@@oldranger3044 I think you will find the 454068 in the black powder section of the 1970 Lyman book. It is not new and goes back to at least the 1920's. Hensley & Gibbs made a similar mold but it is not a hollow base.

[@StevenMMan]

My bullets for the Remington/small colt I made the bases diameters at .445, and my drive bands at .452. For the ruger/walker bullets the bases are still at .445, with a .456 drive bands. The noses are designed as a flat nose, kinda half way between a keith bullet and a semi wad cutter.

[@oldranger3044]

Neat. Bases about the same then as the Lee, with a slightly larger drive band, which seems to be a good idea, as that .448 (my castings) seems a bit on the small side for a decent seal on some chambers. Be interesting to hear how they shoot with the nose design. O.R.

[@StevenMMan]

@@oldranger3044 leverguns50 has shot my two lightest for the Remington/small colt and has now tested my biggest walker bullet out two different formats. Out a cap and ball walker just shy of a 1000 fps, and the other format is a Walker conversion in 45-55 walker. And just shy of a 1000 fps. This is my 270 gr design that averages out at 271 gr. Bullet drove through 32" of gel and looked pretty stable

[@tomvawter4531]

Thanks for the informative video! Nice collection of percussion revolvers.

[@oldranger3044]

Thanks Tom. Be interesting to see them all try the same load and bullet(s), counting cleaning, but that could easily be half a summer’s project. O.R.

[@tomvawter4531]

@@oldranger3044 Definitely a lot of work! I share your love and fascination with percussion revolvers. I conduct similar testing and achieve similar results. I've been experimenting with Howell cartridge conversions in .45 Colt also. I'm curious to see the results of your tests with the Johnson and Dow bullets? I appreciate your channel very much!

[@danielcurtis1434]

I can definitely say there is a problem with Uberti 1858s properly sealing with Lee .450” bullets. I have an 1858 carbine (really Remington 1866 repeating rifle). It only occasionally shaves half a ring of lead at best and usually there’s nothing. I plan to get a .452” .45LC mold. I’ve been told by some people online that this will fix the issue? Anyways if anyone has any experience or suggestions I’d appreciate u

[@oldranger3044]

You’re probably aware that Lee makes a conical mold designed for the Ruger Old Army. It will be close to.458, and its advantage over the.452 ACP or LC mold might be that it has a smaller base which helps to start the bullet. O.R.

[@danielcurtis1434]

@@oldranger3044 yeah I considered the old army but I have brass frame 1858 revolver (and a steel 1858 carbine. I think the colt would probably be easier on the loading lever??? Although the fact the Lee is designed for it may mean less actual lead to shave??? In any case I would say based on my experience Lee .450” are not safe outside of range use!!! I could imagine that bullet walk out enough to short start and detonate!!! My solution (when it was my go to gun) I kept it loaded but melted a solid mass of paraffin covering the bullet completely. Bonus is I get extra lube!!! I think for carrying the paraffin is fine (assuming it doesn’t exceed 80-85 degrees).

[@oldranger3044]

@@danielcurtis1434 Is the .450 a bullet you have been loading designed and typically used in a cartridge gun, or is it the Lee mold designed for black powder. It sounds like it is a cartridge bullet? O.R.

[@danielcurtis1434]

@@oldranger3044 no I have the 200 grain Lee mold (intended for .44 cal caplock revolvers). I did think about buying the 294 grain hollow base .450” Lee offers for .45 caliber muzzleloaders. I was thinking I could cut down the pin and have the base just filled so it would be something like 350 grains. However I had serious doubts about the rifling being anti stabilize anyways. I still like the idea of shooting 350 grain pills from my 1858 carbine with however much powder I could fit???

[@oldranger3044]

@@danielcurtis1434 I agree that stability could be a issue. The Lee conical for the ROA has a max diameter of .460, so it could be difficult for the loading lever. I should try it sometime. I have noticed what you’re experiencing, but in the Uberti, which chambers seem a couple thousand larger. Hopefully you will solve some issues, and keep me informed if you have time. Thanks. O.R.

[@ArgoPower]

Hi dear O.R. have you ever tried the British Kerr from Eras Gone (Mark Hubble) ?

[@oldranger3044]

No, but I have some of Mark's molds. Never paid attention to that Kerr as I just assumed it was for some British piece. Will check into it. Thanks. O.R.

[@bluescatreimer]

@@oldranger3044 I bought the Kerr mold from Mark and the bullet works great in all my 44's, Colt and Remington.

[@oldranger3044]

I don’t have that one, but it’s good to know. Thanks for your information. O.R.

[@bluescatreimer]

@@oldranger3044 I actually ordered the Kerr because the Johnson and Dow was out of stock back when I ordered. I enjoy your videos.

[@txdocprich_8404]

Did you make three curly maple grip panels? I made some in cocobolo with live edge for my Remington 44

[@oldranger3044]

I did. Was interesting, especially putting serration on the brass round grip nut that drives into one side. Wondering how you approached Removing wood close to the metal strap? O. R.