191 - Revolutionizing our understanding of mental illness with optogenetics

View show notes for this episode: bit.ly/3nxroak
Karl Deisseroth is a world-renowned clinical psychiatrist, neuroscientist, and author of Projections: A Story of Human Emotions. In the episode, Karl explains his unique career path that led to the development of optogenetics-a revolutionary technique that uses specialized light-sensitive ion channels to precisely control the activity of select populations of neurons. Karl provides a concise overview of how optogenetics works and how it can be used to better understand mental illness, to identify the neurons responsible for specific behaviors, and to guide development of new treatments. Karl uses his experience as a practicing psychiatrist to provide deep insights into depression, anxiety, autism, and personality disorders and explains the role of optogenetics in mapping out brain regions responsible for common mental health afflictions.
We discuss:
00:00:00 - Intro
00:00:10 - Karl’s journey through medical school and interest in the brain
00:14:51 - A profound medical school experience that changed Karl’s career path to psychiatry
00:25:07 - Karl’s commitment to research and challenges overcome early in his career
00:32:43 - The state of psychiatry and mental health therapies when Karl started his lab in 2004
00:38:13 - Neuroscience 101: fundamentals of neuroanatomy and neurophysiology
00:48:05 - Traditional techniques for identifying the brain regions involved in specific behaviors
00:52:30 - Intro to optogenetics and how to get a gene into a neuron
01:04:50 - How viruses helped make optogenetics possible
01:19:41 - How optogenetics was used to investigate the effects of dopamine neurons
01:27:02 - Appreciating the power of optogenetics
01:32:42 - Investigating and treating anxiety with optogenetics
01:45:12 - Autism and autism-related anxiety, and the potential of optogenetics in treating autism
01:52:41 - Optogenetics as a powerful tool for the discovery and creation of medical treatments
01:55:59 - Karl’s inspiration to write his book, Projections
02:01:44 - Mania and bipolar disorder: evolutionary basis, symptoms, and the high prevalence in North America
02:13:50 - Depression: evolutionary basis and insights from optogenetics
02:31:03 - The effects of trauma early in life
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About:
The Peter Attia Drive is a weekly, ultra-deep-dive podcast focusing on maximizing health, longevity, critical thinking…and a few other things. With over 35 million episodes downloaded, it features topics including fasting, ketosis, Alzheimer’s disease, cancer, mental health, and much more.
Peter is a physician focusing on the applied science of longevity. His practice deals extensively with nutritional interventions, exercise physiology, sleep physiology, emotional and mental health, and pharmacology to increase lifespan (delay the onset of chronic disease), while simultaneously improving healthspan (quality of life).
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[@gstlynx]

I have always been amazed at Peter Attia's interviewing skills. This conversation showcases that beautifully. It also highlights another thing about Dr. Attia, he seems to have preexisting connections to so many consequential thinkers. For those few that he doesn't have past connections, his insightful questions and comments seems to open people up and allow for really deep and illuminating discussions. Dr. Deisseroth's eloquence and insight are remarkable. Very informative and enjoyable. Thanks Dr. Attia and Dr. Deisseroth.

[@patricksmith1099]

I am still sitting here amazed at how Dr. Diesseroth can simplify his work down to such a digestible level so effortlessly. Amazing pod!

[@emilybarry9410]

FANTASTIC conversation Peter! I was recently introduced to Karl through Andrew Huberman's podcast, and I immediately bought and read his book- which I agree is beautifully written and incredibly insightful. I hope to see more of him and his work in the near future. Thanks again for your continual outstanding interview on your podcast🙏 💜🤗

[@RebeccaRaven]

This discussion was profound in a way I didn't expect. I found myself thinking about how I switched from being a social worker to an engineer in my 30s...the kinds of choices your brain gives you makes all the difference.

[@stevrgrs]

Just out of curiosity why did you switch ? I am actually going INTO social work in my 40s to help teenagers addicted to drugs. It's a lot more rewarding than finance :) Too bad they are polar opposites on income lol

[@artelc]

Peter’s compassion is real and evident. Great guest and conversation.

[@reneedevereaux8537]

The brilliance clearly evident in this conversation fills my heart with gratitude......Thank you, Dr. Attila and Dr. Deisseroth!

[@Valkiirija]

I'm filled with an enormous respect and gratitude to Peter for his way, style of interviewing such a gem like Karl. And I'm gonna leave it right here, because it's really too much for me to carry furthermore and not develop some sort of fangirling symptoms.) Thank you Peter, it was a great pleasure and a perfect introduction, of surely course now Karl's book is at the top of my reading queue.

[@asifwaseem7131]

Interviewer and the guest both are great in their roles of asking and answering questions, very profound which I did not expect before watching the podcast, top notch stuff

[@hanslick3375]

Amazing stuff. Since our society won't return to a state that is conducive to mental health, we need to find ways to adapt. Thank you for sharing these fascinating insights into cutting edge neuroscience.

[@dantemawji3489]

The excitement i feel for this episode is comparable to a “kid in a candy shop”

[@israeledery9057]

I’m speechless. To Peter and the drive, please keep up the great invaluable work. I’m continually inspired and motivated by the depth and wealth of knowledge this podcast brings to bare. ~ just another college student

[@kenhansen8186]

What an interesting part of life that is unknown to the general masses that affects directly or indirectly everyone in different aspects of their life. Thanks for sharing.

[@cccalifornia7206]

I'm very curious what you both think of Dr. Daniel Amen's practice in using "SPEC Scans" in diagnosis of mental health and imperfections in healing brain issues? 🤔👌

[@yogameditationinsight]

I’ve wanted one of those for so long.

[@patricksmith1099]

Great question and while SPECT is a good marketing tool targeted at providing answers to some of the questions addressed in this episode, the literature on SPECT/fmri/advanced imaging very much lacks the specificity required to be a guide to current DSM-bound treatment options that exist. Ultimately this is an assessment tool at it's best and the treatments (in this case medications primarily) will be similar. I imagine most of the effects have to do with expectation of benefit (which is a very, very, very strong treatment in and of itself). Most of what SPECT literature shows is that you can see certain patterns of blood flow that are correlated with certain behavioral or emotional experienes. A good therapist or psychiatrist and an insightful person seeking help can arrive a subtype that might help guide treatment without a costly scan not covered by insurance :) This is a nice way to say Dr. Amen is an excellent salesperson and believing that something will work does indeed matter, but unlikely that SPECT has a large value add as the treatment options will likely look quite similar. Full disclosure I am a skeptic who has strong disdain for snake oil, and that's how I view Dr. Amen's work.

[@VeryLikeLeigh]

@@patricksmith1099 I like what you had to say and I agree! My son had a SPECT scan at Amen clinic about 6 months ago. Although it was interesting to see, all in all it was not worth 4K for my son's issues. It may be beneficial for many people but my son has high functioning autism and suffers from rumination and OCD, and has anger and mood issues. So a normal person who follows Amen's recommended protocol of good diet, exercise, meditation, and supplements along with CBT, may see great results. The scan just tells you where your brain is overactive or underactive which is probably apparent with just symptoms and observation. I think that money would have been better spent (for my son) by hiring a mindfulness meditation therapist, and a personal trainer. TMS (transcranial magnetic stimulation) is good if one suffers from depression.

[@followp]

@@VeryLikeLeigh Bro/Sis, thanks for sharing your experience. Everyone who reads it can benefit. That’s the value of the internet in its purest form.

[@soulcostume]

@@VeryLikeLeigh Have you tried Dr. Natasha Campbell GAPS diet? Have you read from the work of Dr. Jack Kruse, mitochondria, SunLight, nature exposure, grounding? These are non-expensive everyday lifestyle implementations that may add to the betterment basket🙏🏻.

[@BigJack512]

Wow. Really enjoyed this exchange, great work.

[@nadernayo]

Great Great video as usual.. Thanks peter for your amazing effort to bring this knowledge to us..

[@loopba]

the book is beyond brilliant

[@ultmiddle4991]

Am ordering Projections today. Does anyone else hear Sam Harris’s voice and cadence throughout the interview?

[@stevrgrs]

Most people that think before they speak sound mildly sedated lol. The problem is that you don't find that quality on many. Myself included 😂

[@Notsorandomwalk]

Interesting podcast! Curious if there is any research regarding what percentage of psychiatric patients have illnesses that are correctable physiological malfunctions versus a purely genetic presentation of illness.

[@trismegistus3461]

Why are Spotify episodes way shorter than KZbin ones?

[@DennisBolanos]

Dr. Attia, would you consider interviewing Dr. Ted Carrick?

[@trismegistus3461]

Peter, where did you buy that blue t-shirt?

[@joshualeemslpcncc5840]

Does anyone know the book Dr. Attia is referencing regarding hypomania as an evolutionary construct? I believe he said the Psychiatrist is or was from Johns Hopkins.

[@patricksmith1099]

Likely referencing Kay Redfield Jamison if JHU and bipolar dx. Not sure if she's published extensively on evolutionary psychology but she's pretty big in the field.

[@Nargle19.]

🕊

[@swesek]

Very interesting episode! Ketogenic Diet seems to help to sustain the "energy issues" with Bipolar disorder, according to studies the shifting in states might be related to impaired glucose "burning" / insulin resistance, due to genetic components that results in mitochondria dysfunction. This resonated well with my own experience having Bipolar II and feeling better on Keto: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rmaUeaiAppWMedk

[@ioanaimocanu]

Re: the genetic component of mental disorders. It's 2022. I think it's about time to start considering in utero factors as separate from "genetics". Just because monozygotic twins raised apart share a lot of diagnoses does not mean that the component to the disorder is predominantly genetic. Stable mothers in ideal environments don't give their children up for adoption. The mother's stress/hormonal levels, whether the birth was traumatic, the neglect or lack of bonding post partum, etc - these are all factors that contribute to development significantly, and it is reductionistic to not consider them when discussing the root of mental disorders / adaptation variance.

[@iamnatekea]

Dude needs a haircut