221 ‒ Understanding sleep and how to improve it

[@kst157]

Excellent format - especially with the world’s very best like Matt Walker whose experience and knowledge is so well communicated. Thank you for putting it together & sharing, it’s sincerely appreciated. :)

[@neocoach]

I am enjoying the content with Matt Walker.

[@novemburful]

Thanks Peter. I really enjoyed this episode. I find lots of useful information without going back to all the episodes. More episodes like this would be greatly appreciated. On a different note, I have had insomnia all my life, even when I was a baby (according to my elder sister). I wish there are more information on the genetic basis of various sleeping disorders.

[@RaffiTheQuokka]

As much as I enjoy these talks with Matt Walker, I'd really appreciate sleep content with other experts in the field

[@rollingrock3480]

Why is that?

[@DessicatedCadaver]

Me too. Aren’t there other experts in the sleep field? Honestly, I don’t like this guy, I don’t trust his opinions, I think he overestimates how much science knows about sleep (and how much HE knows), consequently his recommendations are way too rigid and narrow. Instead of having this self promoter always on, how about broadening the scope of interviews on this subject, surely he’s not the sole source of knowledge about sleep. This guy is all over the media and when I see his name, it’s an automatic pass from me. YMMV.

[@RaffiTheQuokka]

​@@DessicatedCadaver I mean absolutely no disrespect to Peter at all by saying this, in fact I love the drive and I've listened to at least a hundred hours of it, but I must say that some of the guest set off my bs radar. Now please, I'm not saying that they are full of shit, I am nowhere near familiar enough with their work and I'm no expert in their fields, so i wouldn't dream of judging them. But some people on the show just don't talk like scientists, especially when they repeatedly baffle you with very strong claims, it makes me suspicious. Basically, if the science is sound, then the scientists should largely agree and it should be easy to get other voices from the field to say similar things. It would def. broaden the conversation and provide additional context. Peter if you or your team are reading this, I would be very interested in how you pick who to trust and listen to, and would appreciate any advice in that respect. Might make a good episode, sorta like the "how to read scientific papers" episode?

[@rollingrock3480]

@@DessicatedCadaver Do you have any sources that run contrary to what he's said on the podcast?

[@roninuutinen8836]

@@rollingrock3480 The problem I'm interpreting is specifically that there's little spotlight on competing arguments. This, while a very inductive scepticism, also makes sense in the modern information-space where anything and everything is contested... except for some reason Matthew's theory. To speculate, it could be that other experts indeed do not disagree and so find no reason to speak up. Also could be that he's completely outside the norm and found frustrating to refute. I resonate with most if not all of what I've heard from him, though it does catch my eye how he appears to have a monopoly on this specific frequency.

[@martinscian3415]

Thank you very much for all the amazing work of both of you, one more time. I’ve read Matt’s book and changed a lot of my life. Looking forward for Attia’s book!!!

[@carolr.556]

I need serious help with sleep..I must get this right! Thank God for this information!

[@mac878]

Over the past twenty years my sleep cycle underwent its own 'evolution' and left me out of the decision-making process. By 8:00 PM, every day, I no longer function and fall asleep within minutes after lying down. Between 2:30 and 3:00 AM, without an alarm, I'm wide awake and ready to get rolling. In fact, I look forward to the first four hours of quiet and use that early morning 'brain fuel' to be more productive. For some time, I've thought I must be getting quality REM sleep and don't need eight hours. However, based on what you're saying, I'm actually losing a large percentage of needed REM sleep since I never go beyond 3:00 AM and usually getting only 6 1/2 - 6 hours per night. Reason for concern? [4:45 AM EST]

[@larrystanley1704]

I have exactly the same sleep schedule, but it has only been the last couple of years. I usually get a half hour to an hour chair nap in during the day that takes the edge off.

[@mac878]

@@larrystanley1704 Same here, Larry. Around 9 - 10AM my mine usually becomes mush and a brief seated nap, or just closing my eyes, helps. My only concern, from what Peter's guest is saying, is that we may be losing a substantial percentage of important REM sleep. Maybe Peter, or Dr. Walker, will mention how that might manifest itself. Mac. Up and rolling.

[@AlteredState1123]

This almost sounds like what I have heard was the Roman sleep schedule. I will have to look that up. Artificial light, climate control, digital devices, and urban noise have skewed many people’s sleep schedules. When I camp I think I crash between 8 and 9 PM and wake up around 6. I don’t think your schedule sounds that strange especially if you throw in an afternoon nap. Siesta culture is the best.

[@Cathy-xi8cb]

You have sleep cycles that are incompatible with social interaction and work against your natural body clocks, including the primary clock that responds to sunlight. You are falling asleep that quickly because your body is exhausted, and that is not healthy on its own. Your sleep deprivation, as well as your circadian rhythm issues, are dangerous over the long term for mental health and immune function, if not other things. You simply are not capable of getting healthy amounts of REM sleep with this schedule. Mathematically impossible.

[@mac878]

@@AlteredState1123 I agree with the sleep protocols, Franz. They both often refer to that list. Like many of Peter's videos, this one led me to Matthew Walker's interview with Rangan Chatterjee. He goes into more detail about protocols and the effect sleep has on the immune system and cancer. I'm enjoying my sleep schedule. Just trying to avoid the "A funny thing happened on the way to the Forum" scenario. I understand Siesta culture. We used to spend our summers on Siesta Key, Florida and referred to it as the Siesta culture and lifestyle.

[@KJSvitko]

The Oura ring and the Apple watch both have good sleep trackers.

[@Socalarborist]

Getting up early and walking as the sun rises has really helped, as well as getting off all screens and social media earlier in the day and limiting my caffeine intake later in the day.

[@mikevaldez7684]

What a wusse. Man up whimp

[@AnnTsungMD]

💯Totally agree! Screen time in the evening before sleep can disrupt the melatonin surge needed to fall asleep.

[@Socalarborist]

@@AnnTsungMD these 3 episodes with Matthew Walker have been my favorite so far! 👍💯

[@AnnTsungMD]

@@Socalarborist Awesome! I like those too! I love Matt Walker interviews!❤

[@ioankv7905]

love this type of format!

[@TumbleSensei]

You should talk about how a lack of liver and muscle glycogen triggers glucagon and cortisol to keep you awake

[@bardsamok9221]

Indeed

[@ayy2193]

None of the people in sleep videos / podcasts talk enough about what we can do to increase slow wave sleep. Just the same stuff about sleep onset / staying asleep which doesn't matter much if SWS is missing, It's so under-researched considering the importance of it. look what lack of it does to narcoleptics & people with depression. and there's just a handful of stuff that has significance to fix this, inaccessible behind a wall of doctors?

[@mares3841]

Thank you! This made the difference for me. I'm all into sleep thanks to this conversation.

[@brandonpeterson8235]

For the record, I love this concept and would love to see more. I’ve been on the fence about membership in the past, this is Both a good way to whet my appetite but also to make me more heavily consider.

[@mikevaldez7684]

Brandon Peterson, Go away. You're obviously too poor to afford membership if you're still "on the fence" over a few measly $. Goodbye poor boy. 💯🙋🙏

[@SSquared60]

Loved this podcast episode

[@timbob1145]

Now if only I'd watch videos like this at a time when I shouldn't be sleeping.

[@orbifold4387]

Is there any benefit of intermittent sleeping? I spent almost one whole night running, didn't sleep well the next night due to caffeine overload, but the second night I slept like never before, even had some great dreams.

[@bardsamok9221]

Maybe peripheral benefits but unlikely there are *net* benefits as you're causing damage.

[@melw2389]

Thank you.

[@allen3243]

where do you find the link to the cbti therapist from american academy of sleep? I'd really like to look into that. Thanks for the great show as always.

[@EdwardsNH]

Wondering the same, and also wondering why you’re the only one asking, and why nobody is commenting

[@wavesnowaves]

I think that these social media and connected days, we are just continually bombarded with mental stimulus and input, which our brains just can’t handle over a certain amount. We are exposed to so much information, that we really shouldn’t know about.

[@marywesterbeke1490]

I am curious about the subject of taking exogenous melatonin for sleep. I reviewed the playlist regarding sleep and didn’t see any titles that indicated this has been discussed previously. I would greatly appreciate this in a future episode.

[@Dana_Swan_711]

Dr. Attia, What are your thoughts on Cancer Diseases being caused by the Immune System NOT DOING IT'S JOB OF KILLING THE CANCER CELLS.. because of chronic Inflammation ...

[@SSquared60]

I was given ambien years ago and had horrifying effects of doing things I don’t remember doing. Was given doxepin and eventually stopped. Years later the insomnia came back. I used delta 8 gummies and they worked. Wondering if this can be a bad idea…

[@charlesmay3759]

More cowbell please. Welcome to Texas

[@rubensonorio8805]

By my own experience I think there is a compensation for lack of sleep or the nights you don't sleep so well😴😇

[@honkeyness9427]

The anxiety from the phone pales in comparison to the anxiety of having to go to work

[@robertusga]

Turned temp down to 65F last night. Slept MUCH better. Unfortunately that is an unacceptable temp for my wife. Guess good sleep is over-rated 🤣

[@bardsamok9221]

I wonder why the sleep cycles are referred to as 90 mins when 8 Hours is recommended.. given on average it doesn't take 30 minutes to get into the first phase

[@mariedenoyer2173]

What about melatonin tabs?

[@Rach1941]

I strongly advise listening to the YT video "What If You Don't Need 8 Hours of Sleep" on the "What I've Learned" channel to see a compelling counterpoint to Matt Walker's repeated insistence that humans require 8 hours of sleep a night for good health, cognition, and longevity. It seems that many current hunter-gatherer societies do fine on less than 6 hours a night. I suspect Matt is using his supposed expertise on matters of sleep more to help him sell more books and videos than advance a position that is actually supported by modern field evidence.

[@IakonaWayne]

yeah, I need 6 hours and 45 minutes.

[@rubensonorio8805]

I understood they sleep 6 hours at night but nap in the afternoon to compensate 😇

[@Cathy-xi8cb]

Walker is referencing the MOUNTAIN of evidence that most adults need an average of 8 hours of sleep. He isn't a supposed expert. He is an expert. He is very clear in his book that there is a range of recommended sleep time between 7.5 and 9, illness increases your sleep need, and that indigenous people who don't live by the clock have been extensively studied. Refer to page 260 of his book. I will paraphrase: they get a 7-9 hour sleep opportunity (the time you give yourself to sleep), the devices worn that report on sleep to researchers record movement, not awakening, and their average lifespan is 59 years. They aren't recording EEG readings, so that data is definitely not accurate. That doesn't sound appealing to most of us.

[@IakonaWayne]

@@Cathy-xi8cb An Average lifespan of 59 is probably attributable to lack of modern healthcare and high infant mortality rates not lack of sleep.

[@Cathy-xi8cb]

@@IakonaWayne Read the book; they regularly die of infections they can't fight off. Not every culture w/o access to modern medicine can't fight off infection. The idea that they thrive on short sleep is a myth that people use to support their own actions and beliefs, not based on sleep science.

[@mynameisnobody3931]

Its mentioned that hunter gatherers slept 2 bouts of sleep, especially in summer. Couldn't it just be because the night is shorter so its difficult to sleep properly...? So they're simply so tired that they needed that nap

[@miguelcohen4551]

Hi Peter, I’m Mickey, I have been listening many videos of you. All the thing that you say are very interesting. I have learned a lot with you. You promote the exercise, weightlifting and more. I’m 44. I’m looking for am online trainer who can help me with a training and nutritional program. I’m skinny and I want to gain muscle. I learned from you that is very important to have more muscle mass for when you get old. I want to follow your recommendation. I’m very discipline and persistent. I want to find someone who can help me. Someone who knows how to take me to the next level. I’m used to eat very healthy but I have to combine a good training workout with a good nutritional program. I know that you have a lot of experience and I’m sure you know a lot of people, I want to ask you if you could give me some recommendations for a good trainer, a good trainer who can help me to achieve my goal. I prefer to find someone through a good recommendation (it can be yours). A good recommendation can make a difference.

[@robertusga]

Where does the use of melatonin fit in?

[@N412BE]

Yea, I would have liked to hear their opinions on that.

[@negatron7321]

16 days of 0 sleep for me. That might be getting close to a world record. Combination of celiac disease and amphetamines. Needles to say it had functional impairment.

[@JuliMoodyStunts]

I took the test and it was not very helpful did not really guessed my sleeping pattern ... I wish it was a better test more detailed their questions were not flexible to answer I am an elite athlete and my training is happening in the evening hard conditioning ,weight and interval training so it cancels all the normal people routines I record my sleep cycle and this test is bogus

[@luomoalto]

Too long, and too theoretical. 90 minutes and didn’t talk about Chili Pad (just one comment that he has one) or weighted blankets, or sleep masks to block light. Those things are huge. How can you not cover those?

[@Cathy-xi8cb]

Because they don't have science backing them up. Walker is sharing what is proven to work, not what works for some people on variable evidence. And I am a licensed provider that recommends weighted blankets and masks for some patients. We simply don't have any research to shore up our recommendations on those, so he is sticking to evidence-based stuff.

[@bellelacroix5938]

Earplugs.

[@user-tk7sc4gz2v]

Well, I find the guest biased towards his opinions.

[@bironbrunelle5186]

But decaf. doesn’t taste as good…:-)

[@joequixotic3039]

I think your guest has some delusions about the quality of UC Berkeley. I wouldn't trust most graduates to walk my dog (if I had one). Same with the faculty.

[@Theodinsson]

Loool kind harsh but what happened at UC Berkeley? Redaction watch?

[@joequixotic3039]

@@Theodinsson it sounds like you've never been there. Walk through campus for 5 minutes and you'll know. If you don't get it, don't try to walk my dog.

[@Theodinsson]

@@joequixotic3039 never been to Berkeley. Would rather go to Stanford, Yale or MIT if I had to go to a US university.

[@joequixotic3039]

@@Theodinsson all better choices.

[@elvay6847]

Hmm, a Peter Attia recommended video. Haven't listened to one of these in ages, at least since I realized the man just loves the sound of his own voice. So I click the video and immediately fast forward and BOOM, Peter is talking about himself. Fast forward again, talking about himself again. Fast forward again, back to back interruptions of his guest. Then I realized this video is just bits and pieces of other videos. Are you that fucking desperate for attention Peter?