1911 Part 12 - Springfield EMP4 CCC vs Dan Wesson Guardian: Is the EMP REALLY a 1911?

[@ricksmead2530]

I don’t think a 1911 is certain dimensions it is a retain action and a certain build. I own a couple 1911’s from colt and kimber custom shop along with a 9mm emp and it is my favorite 1911 I have ever owned and it is a 1911 on every level I can think of. Geometry is not the same but that is what makes it better than my others. Fat chicks and skinny chicks are all women. Because there size has changed does not make them any different. I through a little 2019 sense in there for you. : ). Great video

[@RidersRange]

Rick, thanks for weighing in on the subject. I appreciate your perspective. I think I am pretty liberal on 1911 modifications and design changes/improvements - 3" bull barrels, extended beavertail grip safeties, and (gasp) even external extractors are all 1911 mods that have a purpose. (Even though the STI Staccato C is called a 2011 by STI and even though it has a polymer-hybrid frame, it still works with 1911 magazines, so in my not-always-so-humble opinion, it is still a 1911.) I also like the EMP and it has a valuable place in the personal protection world, but I draw the line at calling a gun a 1911 if it won't accept 1911 magazines. In that case, it is "1911-like". I understand the reason for the smaller magazine to better fit the shorter 9mm and .40 cartridge and it makes for a theoretically more reliable gun in those calibers. So, maybe it is another step in the evolution of the 1911 platform, much as the Staccato C is. But all of this is just my opinion. (Isn't that what KZbin is all about?) Just because I personally draw the line at a given point, doesn't make it gospel. And that opinion did draw at least some discussion, which is what I was hoping for. Again, thanks for watching and for commenting.

[@anthonyflinchum2174]

The tenth of an ounce of extra weight with the EMP4 is likely due to the bull barrel, full length guide rod, and ambidextrous safety. All of which are not present on the Guardian. The fact that it is only a tenth of an ounce seems like quite an achievement.

[@RidersRange]

Anthony, Springfield made some very useful mods to the 1911 design. I only wish they had taken that 1/8" off the back of the grip frame, rather than the front, but that probably would have required too much engineering for that price point.

[@anthonyflinchum2174]

@@RidersRange I agree.

[@JayMacklin]

Wow. I have 4 1911’s. One of them is the EMP C3 9mm and it is by far my most accurate and easiest to shoot. My others are the Sig Sauer Nightmare Carry .45 along with the Springfield Loaded .45. I LOVE my .45 1911 but the EMP C3 is the best CCW 1911 I’ve ever seen

[@RidersRange]

Jay, thanks for offering your experience with the EMP. I agree that it’s a more practical gun for everyday carry than the Nightmare or the Loaded.

[@rhandley1000]

I am looking at a Nightmare Carry. What is your opinion of it?

[@RidersRange]

@@rhandley1000 sorry for the delay, but I just noticed this reply. KZbin notifies me of comments, but not replies to comments. Anyway, the Nightmare is a very nice pistol, though a little heavy, as I believe it's built on a steel frame. It would be similar to the the Sig Nitron that I reviewed in Part 3 of The Great Affordable 1911 Series.

[@rhandley1000]

@@RidersRange Thank you. I ended up grabbing an EMP CCC. Love it

[@presjohnpol]

So that Dan Wesson is the gold standard for everything 1911? If the EMP loses points for shaving off some bulk then so too should any "1911" with a barrel shorter than 5" also a 1911 uses .45 ACP so anything that uses a different round isn't really a 1911. Also, I'm pretty sure the sights on the DW aren't original 1911 sights....my point is all modern "1911"s are based on that original design but improved upon and customized by companies and individuals. Most "1911"s aren't true the EMP isn't any more of an impostor than any of the other 1911s out there.

[@RidersRange]

presjohnpol, thanks for weighing in on the 1911issue. First, while I believe Dan Wesson makes the premier “production” 1911, I don’t necessarily consider them the “gold standard for everything 1911”. Brandon Bunker, Ted Yost, and several other true 1911 craftsmen would probably set that standard. I might even put Cabot guns up there. As to the “EMP loses points for shaving off some bulk”, that’s not why I don’t consider it a “true” 1911. If you watch the video again, you’ll note that by not accepting 1911 magazines and by not sharing all fire control parts, it’s “almost” a 1911, but not quite a true 1911. You’ll note from every other comparison in the 1911 series that one thing all 1911s have in common is that an original 1911 magazine will fit and lock in place (I’m referring to fit, not feed, as there are a whole host of calibers that are still true 1911s). The EMP is a very nice gun and it has its place, just as Glocks, Smith M&Ps, CZs, Walthers, etc., but it’s only 1911-like. There are also those who don’t consider anything that has an aluminum frame, or a barrel in a length other than 5”, or anything with an external extractor to be a true 1911. But as I pointed out in, I believe it was part 2 or 3, that’s like saying that a Corvette isn’t a true Corvette unless it has a six cylinder engine, two-speed Powerglide transmission and solid rear axel. Making improvements is a good thing, but once it won’t accept a 1911 magazine, in my opinion - and it’s just that, “my opinion” - it is then an “almost” 1911.

[@mazda64life]

The EMP does come with a match grade barrel.

[@RidersRange]

mazda64life, thanks for filling in that blank. It doesn’t say “match” on the barrel, but Springfield does have that in their specs.

[@terenceciesielski4975]

I really enjoy watching your videos with the shooting the side by side and the information you present,Keep up the good job

[@RidersRange]

Thank you for watching and commenting.

[@762N8O]

To be honest, I have expensive 1911's that jam with standard 1911 mags. They need special tuned mags. Does that make them non 1911's as well?

[@RidersRange]

sevensixtwo nato, there are not many firearm topics that generate more polarization than the debate of what constitutes a 1911. I laid out my criteria, but to each his or her own. But thanks for commenting and thanks for watching.

[@Art-st1qv]

I sure do enjoy these videos .. keep up the great work.. Great shooting by the way.

[@RidersRange]

Art, thanks for the compliment. We have 10 more 1911 comparison videos planned and several non-1911 vids. We always appreciate suggestions on what you would like to see us review or compare. And, that Dan Wesson Guardian can make almost anyone look good on the range.

[@waynecastleman1363]

Going back in time a bit however it's a great video, Ryder I had just purchased an EMP 4 this week and caught this video and so after three years I thought some form of update on the EMP was due so the three PPPs and comparing to the guardian Guardian the EMP came with five magazines ( Italy ) but mostly the 4 came as you described, it does feel good in my hand and the red fiber optic front works well for me and there is an optional green in the box. My hunt originally was for the SIG Emporium with the bob mag but the EMP 4 caught my attention so not putting it over the SIG or D.W. I'm sure I'd be all smiles with either one. I'm curious to as to how accurate this pistol will be with a good load.

[@RidersRange]

The EMP, being designed around the shorter 9mm/.40S&W round, was an interesting innovation by Springfield. I'm sure you will enjoy it. My only real complaint is the lack of compatibility with 1911 mags. As always, thanks for watching and commenting.

[@waynecastleman1363]

@@RidersRange I agree 👍

[@garystrobel7969]

Great, great videos. Qq, Do you consider the barrel heavy EMP distracting compared to the Guardian which to me is better balanced? Thanks

[@RidersRange]

Gary, both felt as balanced as a typical Commander-class pistol, though the extra 1/4" of barrel on the Guardian may help a little. But then again, I'm used to shooting 4" Kimbers and 3.9" Staccato C and Nighthawk T4. The EMP works fine, though the grip circumference is just a tad too small for my taste, so the Guardian feels better - to me - and therefore, shoots better for me.

[@buggin1951]

Let's suppose that Springfield existed in the early 1900's and produced the EMP. John Browning (and Colt) would have sued and won for patent infringement. The EMP is clearly a 1911 pistol in every sense of the word. Only part sizes have changed (along with a ramped barrel). By your logic, a 9mm pistol could not be a 1911 because it must be .45 to qualify. Nor could any pistol with a ramped barrel, bushingless barrel or different magazine. Springfield was brilliant in its design changes here because the 1911 format is way larger than it needs to be for the 9mm or .40 cartridge.

[@RidersRange]

John, thanks for weighing in with your opinion. You make good points, and I don't disagree. One could consider that if it has an external extractor, but is true to the design in all other aspects, it isn't a "true" 1911, but I wouldn't pose such an argument (though some purists would). The EMP is a great design modification to specifically address the issues with cartridges that are shorter than the .45ACP. However, my point -- which is just my personal opinion, not stated as indisputable fact -- was that the EMP is "almost" a 1911, but many dimensions are changed to the point that standard 1911 magazines and many 1911 parts will no longer fit, so it is no longer true to the design. I can fit a 9mm 1911 magazine in a 1911 .45 and vice-versa, but not in an EMP. I can fit a 9mm 1911 trigger in a .45 and vice-versa, but not in an EMP. Yes, the slide for a 9mm has a different breach face than a .45, and the ejector is also different, as is the barrel, but if the exterior dimensions are the same and the magazines are interchangeable for fit, though not for function, I consider the guns to be true 1911s (that includes Commander-class and Officer/CCO-class guns). But again, that's just my opinion and it has no legal bearing. But it DID provoke discussion, which is always good. Again, I sincerely appreciate that you watched and offered your opinion.

[@frritter8253]

Good, detailed review of both; we have the EMP4 CCC and were wondering how it compared to others.

[@RidersRange]

Thank you for watching and commenting.

[@sgtbillsilvia1100]

If the fiber is too bright/distracting, take a black marker and black out the sides of the rod. Try a little at first and see what amount works best for you.

[@RidersRange]

William, fiber optic front sights are a mixed blessing for me. They do help with quick sight acquisition, but certainly aren’t the best for precision shooting on sunny days.

[@jacklancaster9433]

Do you use a shot buffer, on your guide rod on the Dan Wesson?

[@RidersRange]

Jack, I have never used any type of buffer in any 1911.

[@gew1898]

Excellent analysis!

[@RidersRange]

gew1898, thanks for watching and for your king comment.

[@Csmallo]

The DW website claims that the Guardian trigger is slightly shorter than a traditional 1911 trigger.

[@RidersRange]

Chris, you piqued my curiosity. The DW Guardian site says "Medium...Trigger.....slightly shorter length trigger". So I checked a sampling of my other 1911s, and the Guardian trigger (along with the DW CCO and ECO triggers) are approximately 1/10" shorter than most of my 1911s, but approximately 1/10" longer than a mil-spec 1911-A1-style "short" trigger. And the trigger reach is still about the same between the Guardian and the EMP. Thanks for commenting - and thanks for making me exercise my brain on a cold Sunday afternoon.

[@southfork67]

Great video! I bought a EMP4 right at the release in 2016. It went back to the factory twice for poor barrel lockup and resulting horrible accuracyIt also had razor sharp front edges on the mag well that cut skin. No improvement after two trips to the factory. I have a Guardian in the mail right now and found your video and channel while I’m anxiously waiting for it to arrive. I have a discontinued 2009 C-BOB in 10mm that I cherish. The Guardian was a no brainer. We have very similar shooting styles. Your marksmanship is inspiring. Glad to have found you. 👍

[@RidersRange]

High Desert Range, thanks for watching and commenting. Let us know how you like your Guardian when you get some trigger time with it. I have enjoyed many of your videos and found it inspiring that you took on a plate at 45 yards with the P238. Any plans for more videos?

[@Paladin1873]

Good comparison.

[@RidersRange]

Thanks for watching.

[@l.o.r410]

Does this gun jam? The asking price is like 1K for one. That’s like getting 2 glocks honestly. Are these gun worth it?

[@RidersRange]

They each are highly reliable guns. But like any 1911, they need to be lubricated properly and need good magazines. You can find the EMP for less than $1,000, the Guardian for a little more. Yes, that’s a lot more than a Glock, but not much beats the ergonomics or the trigger of a good 1911.

[@l.o.r410]

Rider's-Range I’m have to think about this one. Glocks can be customized also. But thanks for your feedback. I appreciate it.

[@RidersRange]

I carried Glocks of various models for the last 24 years of my 38-year law enforcement career and had no problems with any of them. I have changed the trigger and sights on Glocks and they can be very nice, accurate shooters. And of course, the sky is the limit for customization on Glocks. There are so many choices today that virtually anyone can find a gun that works best for them.

[@l.o.r410]

Rider's-Range Thank you for your time. I seriously appreciate it. I’ll go look at the Emp and if I seriously like it more than the glock then I’ll just get it.

[@VinceCrofts]

Glocks work well but for me that is like saying I could date two ugly girls instead of one beautiful woman.

[@EGARides-87]

I just got an EMP 3, which does come from factory with tritium sights, match grade barrel and the over travel adjustment. Not sure why there are some EMP variations that come without the trigger over travel adjustment and night sights. Glad I got a good one, because theyre not CA roster firearms and my local FFL only had one left. Thankfully it was the luxury one, lol

[@RidersRange]

Steve, Springfield offers several variations of the EMP. Too bad your state has so few guns on the roster, but you were lucky make a nice find. Thanks for watching and for commenting.

[@DurdenTyler21]

I can't find the EMP Contour ANYWHERE! wish I could, I would buy it fast!

[@RidersRange]

The EMP CCC is pretty scarce. Every now and then one will pop up on Gunbroker.

[@TheGorillafoot]

Why did Springfield cheap out on the sights? When the first thing you gotta do is replace the sights on a pistol this is over $1k it's hard to spend the money on it when you can get a Kimber or a Dan Wesson like this for the same cost or a tiny bit more depending on your choice.

[@RidersRange]

It seems that the majority of shooters are satisfied with standard three-dot sights. For those who want something different, there are many options, so many manufacturers just put on the basics. But I agree that at the near-$1,000 price point, Springfield should have put on more than just the basics.

[@Pmedic605]

So there are people who have argued and lost their minds at the "Commander" and the "Officer's model" in .45 acp being called a 1911 as they are insisting only the full 5-inch 1911 being the only true 1911. So whats the point beyond whether or not the EMP fits a need and shoots well?

[@RidersRange]

Pmedic605, from what I have seen and heard, there seems to be more arguments about 1911 "purity" than any other type of handgun. My only point is that if it doesn't take a full-size 1911 magazine, it isn't, in my opinion, a "true" 1911. So, Commander and Officer size would count, but the EMP wouldn't. That isn't meant to take anything away from the EMP, as it is a fine pistol and definitely fits a niche. Thanks for watching and for commenting.

[@RockinRack]

Anyone own one? I just got mine factory new. And it was very dirty and used. I understand they test fire. But the hammer was worn, top of chamber, back of chamber where firing pin already so dark it won't clean up. Feed ramp looks worn. Ran a patch through it and came out black. My biggest concern though is there supposed to be a feed ramp cut in the aluminum frame under the feed ramp on the barrel? It looks poorly worn in rather than actually done in factory. And when I cycle ball ammo it comes out with gashes in the copper. Haven't even shot it yet and I feel ripped off

[@RidersRange]

Ernestro, looks like you need to take it back to your dealer.

[@RockinRack]

@@RidersRange they told me its factory new so ill probably call Springfield and have them check the serial number. About to shot it right now. See how it runs with ball and hp

[@62dobie]

As far as the trigger on the EMP, I had my trigger done by Springfield and my EMP trigger is as nice or better than any 1911 I've ran across. As with anything, put a little money in it if you want it better. Overall the EMP is A great firearm. I trust my life to it daily. Every firearm is different and has it's own place in the firearm world. Comparing them should be about their unique differences and what they bring to the firearms community. What may not be perfect for one, maybe great for others.

[@RidersRange]

BIG LOU, that's one of the great things about this country - at least for now. There are options for everyone. Thanks for watching and for commenting.

[@peterpherfinion6671]

What do you mean you had your trigger done by Springfield? Wasn't the stock trigger to your liking?

[@jmac2465]

I want a Dan Wesson…with that being said, I have a Springfield Ronin EMP 4” and love it. I’ve owned many 1911 and 2011; STI VIP(.45), Kimber KDS9C(9mm), Colt Defender(.45), Springfield Prodigy(9mm), Ruger 1911(9mm) and the Ronin EMP is the most accurate one I’ve tested (off a test, not free hand). It also feels the best in my hand due to me having little Carnie hands. I love the EMP so much that I have bought it twice. I have never had 1 malfunction in either one I owned. However, I do clean them to OCD specs! I have a problem.

[@RidersRange]

You have a nice collection. Thanks for watching and commenting.

[@jmac2465]

@@RidersRange I wish I still had all of them. Had to rob Peter to pay Paul!!

[@ggreloaded5269]

This was a great video, Thank you so much for the valuable information. You got yourself a new subscriber.

[@RidersRange]

GG RELOADED, thanks for watching, subscribing and for kind comment.

[@franknapolitano9144]

1911s that are chambered in 9mm and have a fully Ramped Barrell, are they true 1911s ?

[@RidersRange]

Frank, ah, the great debate on what is and isn't a 1911. Some will say if it has an external extractor, it isn't a 1911. Others will say if it isn't chambered in .45acp, it isn't a 1911. Then there's the group who will say if it isn't a steel frame and 5" barrel with GI sights, it isn't a 1911. Everyone has their own opinion. My main criteria, as I explained in the review, is: if it won't accept a 1911 magazine, it isn't quite a 1911. But again, that's just my personal opinion. I'm neither a 1911-purist nor a 1911-snob - just a lover of the 1911 design however it's crafted. And my opinion isn't to disparage the EMP - it's a fine gun and definitely serves a purpose and fits many folks. Thanks for watching and for commenting.

[@maxfit68906]

Hey Rider, hope all is well on the home front. Got a question. I know you have both but if you had to choose one, would it be the ECO or the Guardian and why? Keep up the great content 👍🏽

[@RidersRange]

MaxFit 68, thanks for watching, commenting and asking the question. I'm basically a medium-size guy and my main purpose for either the ECO or Guardian is daily concealed carry. I carried the Guardian for several months, though there were some clothing limitations. When I switched to the ECO, the limitations were reduced, and I found the ECO just as accurate and reliable. The only downside was a slight reduction in capacity, but to me, that was an acceptable tradeoff for more concealability. Someone of larger stature may be able to conceal a full-frame bobtail pistol easier and someone with larger hands may prefer the full-frame grip. As they say, "your mileage may vary".

[@maxfit68906]

@@RidersRange Good info. It’s definitely gonna be a difficult choice. I may buy both and just rotate my carry. Thanks for the quick response!

[@RidersRange]

@@maxfit68906 a good friend has both. He usually carries the Guardian, but has started carrying the ECO more often lately.

[@maxfit68906]

@@RidersRange I finally was able to buy a DW Guardian at a discounted price. You mentioned the front sight on yours caused the shots to be placed 5 inches high on the target. Would you have the ability to measure the height of the current front sight that was corrected by DW ? My DW has a born on date of “2019”. I just want to ensure that they have the correct front sight on my firearm. I’m considering replacing it with a red fiber optic Thanks again Sir.

[@RidersRange]

@@maxfit68906 I could get mine out and measure it, but your situation may be different. I would suggest patterning your gun at 15 yards (no closer) with the ammunition you are most likely to use to see where yours shoots. If it is consistently way off point of aim, DW will probably take good care of you. Or, Dawson Precision has a front sight height calculator on their website.

[@epps1217]

Would like to have a 9mm Dan Wesson, but I haven't seen one yet for less than $1500.

[@RidersRange]

Dan Wesson pistols have definitely gotten pricy lately. There currently are 7 DW 9mm pistols on Gunbroker for less than $1,500, but most are well north of that.

[@epps1217]

@@RidersRange that Guardian 9mm is a beautiful gun

[@kylewood8327]

I think you’re really nick picking on the specs. Think of it as a design change, just like John Browning did numerous times before his final product! The design is the same, same trigger, same grip angle, same mag feed, etc! It’s a 1911 IMO...

[@RidersRange]

Kyle, I agree that I'm nit picking, but remember, it's just my opinion. And it did bring out a number of comments. Thanks for watching and for offering your thoughts.

[@kylewood8327]

Rider's-Range...true dat

[@ezdblck917]

Super video, I learned a lot. You're a great shooter. Totally get what you say about the interchangeable magazines, but the EMP doesn't have a bushing either. All the more reason to deny it the title of 1911. Yet the barrel is TIGHT in the slide. Zero movement. The smaller grip fits me very well, it's easier to wrap my fingers around and my grip is more secure when firing. I don't have to keep readjusting. I, with my weak little arthritic 6.5 glove woman's hands, have made myself learn how to take it down and reassemble WITHOUT the take down tool, which I've already lost. Dealing with the bushings and springs of a traditional 1911 is not something I'm interested in. Keep your fat grip Dan Wesson. (If my hands were big enough I might get one. but when I pull out my EMP people ask "hey, what 1911 is that?" ) Oh, the weight difference - could it be the bull barrel of the EMP? It's beefy.

[@RidersRange]

EZD, The EMP definitely has a place and works well for many people. The fact that it is designed specifically for the 9mm and .40S&W cartridge makes it very reliable. With all the great choices in handguns, everyone should be able to find something that works well for them. Thanks for your kind comments. I hope you have a healthy and prosperous New Year.

[@jackmarks2176]

Very nice review, I love my Springfield's, for the price I believe you get a lot of quality gun. As far as the EMP is concerned I have the 3 inch and 4 inch. I love both guns but of note the chamber on the 4 inch is tighter than the 3 inch. I reload and out of a hundred shells maybe 10 percent won't drop in the chamber of the 4 inch but will drop right in the 3 inch, or the M&P, or Glock, or etc. The 3 inch does have the trigger stop adjustment and came with tritrium sights. Maybe not as refined as the Dan Wesson but for the price still can be trusted to fire when carried.

[@RidersRange]

Jack, thanks for watching and for the comment. The EMP was specifically engineered for the 9mm and .40S&W cartridges and from all the other reviews I've seen, they run 100%. Even the great Massad Ayoob had high praises for the EMP.

[@Rubeless]

I tried the EMP 4 CCC and it had light primer strikes and ftfeed issues by the second magazine. Springfield replaced the slide and barrel and polished the feed ramp. Light primer strikes nearly every other round on the first mag and sent it back again. Apparently they have issues with their 9mm 1911s. After four months of poor customer service I received a check. I sold my TRP a bought a Dan Wesson A2.

[@RidersRange]

That's too bad, as the EMP was supposedly designed specifically for the 9mm and .40S&W cartridge length.

[@HighRoad317]

Was sure it was a 1911 since it was introduced. But now I can’t say but I like it even more. Great content great explanation.

[@RidersRange]

Michael, thank you for watching and commenting. The EMP is a very nice gun in the 1911 family and very 1911-like, just not quite true to scale.

[@SMRMBA08]

Great video. The DW ECP has a similar configuration to the EMP4 (recoil spring rod, bull barrel), but I believe it's dimensions are closer to the 1911 than they are the EMP4.

[@RidersRange]

My only complaint with the EMP is that I can't use any of my 1911 mags, but they all work in the Guardian. Thanks for watching.

[@jimp6984]

I own both of these, and they are my carry guns. They are fantastic and very reliable. My Dan Wesson is in .38 Super, and the EMP is, of course, 9 mm.

[@RidersRange]

Jim, thanks for watching. I've been tempted to get into .38 Super, but then I'd have to spend more money at Dillon to get set up in reloading for yet another caliber.

[@jimp6984]

@@RidersRange It's a wonderful, flat shooting caliber. I hope you'll give it a shot. Pun intended. I love this Dan Wesson.

[@davidpayne3604]

Excellent review...period

[@RidersRange]

Thank you.

[@T30-z5w]

I find the little grips annoying. The gun with a smaller grip moves around more in my hand and increases felt recoil. I even go to the extent of fattening the grips on a 1911 to get the full grip feel. The 4.25 alloy commander size is the ticket for me. Although Dan Wesson OEM sights suck. I replaced them on all mine with the more visible Truglo TFX.

[@RidersRange]

I agree on the grip, the thinner grips may work for some smaller hands, but not as well for larger hands. As to DW sights, I like the Heinie Straight-Eight sights that they put on several models, but not the three-dot sights on the Guardian and others.

[@soulseagull7588]

Just bought the DW Guardian, best gun I’ve ever shot!

[@RidersRange]

Soul Seagull, thanks for watching and commenting. Everyone I know who has purchased the Guardian loves it. Just curious if yours is shooting point of aim, or if it's shooting low. Mine shot low, and I know of several others that shot low and had to go back to DW for a shorter front sight.

[@soulseagull7588]

@@RidersRange i shot steel at the range for about 100 rounds and had no problem with the accuracy. Next time i go to the range I’ll test the sights!

[@edzaslow]

Finding either of these guns circa Fall of 2021 is not easy.

[@RidersRange]

Unfortunately, you are correct. I found only one DW Guardian on Gunbroker, and no Springfield EMP CCC.

[@waynecastleman1363]

Man either of these pistols I could love to own and two of my favorite models and I see great reviews on both ahh what nice guns.

[@RidersRange]

Wayne, they are both very nice guns, though a little higher priced than the typical polymer frame striker-fired guns. But not much beats a well made 1911-style pistol. Thanks for watching.

[@Michael-yl2iq]

Got to be honest, I am trying to decided between EMP4 and DW Vigil and still not sure.

[@RidersRange]

They are both nice guns. The EMP may work better with smaller hands, but putting thin grips on the Vigil should help. The Vigil costs a little more, but I believe Dan Wesson makes the finest "production" 1911 guns.

[@Michael-yl2iq]

@@RidersRange Thank you. This will be my first 1911. If you don't mind me asking do you know of any preference between Dan Wesson 1911 9 mm Vigil and Guardian? My hands I would say are average size so that should not make any difference.

[@RidersRange]

Several differences: Guardian - bob-tail, three-dot night sights, MSRP north of $1,600. Vigil (Commander) - conventional grip (with slightly rounded heel), night sight on front only, plain black rear sight, a couple ounces heavier than the Guardian, MSRP just under $1,300. They both are very nice guns, so it depends on your purpose, method of carry, and available funds. For daily carry, I prefer the Guardian because the bob-tail frame prints less than the regular Commander frame, and that 2 ounces can make a difference.

[@Michael-yl2iq]

@@RidersRange This is not for carry. Thank you for your comments and I do appreciate you taking the time to reply.

[@RidersRange]

For a range gun, I really like my full-size Vigil 9mm (see Part 6 in our series.)

[@ObscureImages]

Really enjoyed the video. I own a Guardian also. I'm a huge Dan Wesson fan in general, have been since the '70s. I love their revolvers and have/still own/ed several. Planning on more DW 1911 purchases in the near future. Can't wait to own the new DWX too! What height of front sight did DW put on your gun when you sent it to them? My Guardian's point of impact is high also and it's bugging me. I don't have a warranty though as I purchased it used. The one area where I'd really like to see Dan Wesson (well, CZ-USA) improve is with their warranties. A 5-year warranty to only the original purchaser is pretty lame considering the price of their guns, and other manufacturers producing far inferior firearms often offer lifetime warranties. Oh well, still fantastic guns! If you have a chance, please let me know that front sight height. Thanks in advance. Again, loved the video. Please post more Dan Wesson stuff!

[@RidersRange]

Obscure Images, sorry for the late reply - either KZbin doesn’t notify me when each comment comes in, or I just plain missed it. So, I dug through my emails and I didn’t specify the height of the sight I needed. I just told them the distance I was shooting, how much higher the point of impact from point of aim, and that I calculated that I needed a front sight that was 0.0383” higher than the one on the gun. Without a warranty, you might consider Dawson for a new front sight. The Dawson Precision website has a sight calculator to help you find the correct sight. I’ve used Dawson before and have had good experiences with them.

[@knauffs1]

I bought an EMP4 CCC, with all the hype about the 1/8" grip reduction, to address my short-fingers trigger reach challenges. I was quite irritated to find that the EMP incredibly came with such a long trigger, which gives me NO better trigger reach than a regular dimension 1911 grip with a short trigger installed! Now I've got to install a short trigger on the EMP! (Thanks for the exact actual trigger reach measurements.)

[@RidersRange]

Stan, I had hoped that Springfield would have shaved off the back of the grip frame to better fit smaller hands, but they took the easy route and took the grip width off the front, as you have found out. But one would think the obvious thing to do at that point would have been to put in a short trigger as a standard item. You could have essentially the same effect by putting a short trigger in the DW Guardian -- and been able to use regular 1911 magazines. In all fairness to Springfield, the internals are optimized for the shorter 9mm and .40S&W cartridges and have been quite reliable. Thanks for your comments.

[@knauffs1]

@@RidersRange I put thin grips and a short trigger on my Sig 1911 RCS (CCO) and it's an excellent fit. I measured its trigger reach today and it's 1/16" SHORTER than my EMP with the factory trigger! You're correct that a Guardian with a short trigger would be good -- presumably the same as my Sig. A Guardian or a Vigil are at the top of my wish list when funds allow! I have to say that the EMP has been flawless in 500 rounds. Accuracy is good and will be better when I get a better trigger reach. It's a gun that's growing on me.

[@RidersRange]

Stan, how do you like the Sig RCS? I’ve never shot one, but I really like the carry-melt treatment on that model.

[@knauffs1]

@@RidersRange I love my RCS! It's one of my favorites. When I had the short trigger installed, I also had the Series 80 parts removed and had the trigger worked to a marvelous 3 1/2 #. It's of the best fitting (small hands) and best shooting semi-autos I have. I love having REAL checkering on the front strap AND the MSH (vs. the hokey "smooth but effective Posi-Lok texturing pattern" on the EMP). The CCO conceals well (but I'm becoming partial to a Commander size bob-tail for equal concealment). I love the lines on Sig 1911's, although that limits holster selection. (I carry the RCS in a Versa Max 2.) Shooting .45 ACP with the RCS's alloy frame has never bothered me. All in all, a good looking and sweet shooting favorite pistol.

[@RidersRange]

Stan, looks like you have the Sig exactly where you want it. Thanks for the follow-up.

[@waynecastleman1363]

I guess it's safe to say if it's not 45 it's not a 1911 but the 9mm pistols the new not so new go to and that's not a bad thing, personally I love a real nice 1911 but I still like it refined for carry and range work combined so Dan Wesson is a good place to start as you pointed out the fit was much nicer. Some Old timers will except nothing less the G.I. they have that connection with a standard issue that is beautiful init on right. That Dan Wesson looks nice dressed in wood. Classic Refined is my Venue .

[@RidersRange]

In my not always so humble opinion, Dan Wesson makes the premier "production" 1911 guns.

[@richardbriscoe8563]

If it doesn’t take 1911 parts, and it doesn’t, it’s not a 1911. Simple. True 1911s deal with the magazine issue for 9mm and there’s not really a problem, particularly with ramped barrels.

[@scottbaker8880]

Strange to compare a production against hand fitted pistol.

[@RidersRange]

Scott, both are "production" guns that require some measure of hand fitting, though I'm guessing the Dan Wesson gets more fitting than the Springfield. I put these two against each other because they were the only guns I had that were relatively comparable - caliber, size, weight, basic configuration. And I have found that some lower end production guns run just as well as more expensive guns. Many of the side-by-side reviews in our Great Affordable 1911 Series were significantly different in price point.

[@JohnJones-ty6fj]

I appreciate this content. Good work.

[@RidersRange]

Thanks, John, I appreciate the feedback.

[@Airplanetyson]

Sounds like you really just don’t like the EMP. You should have just bought another DW

[@RidersRange]

Rowdy, the EMP is a nice reliable, accurate gun, but after carrying and shooting 1911s for a long time, the smaller grip circumference of the EMP just doesn't feel quite right to me. However, my wife likes the smaller grip.

[@Airplanetyson]

@@RidersRange I think both are fine in the own peculiar ways. I like them DW more due to the classic takedown of not having to use the tool. If EMP was like this then it would be a clear winner IMO.

[@gregpalie116]

Neither is a 1911 because neither is a .45. Hence the Browning High Power.

[@RidersRange]

How about we just say they are "1911-style" pistols. Thanks for watching.

[@thinman8621]

Proprietary parts are a caution. Springfield Armory's reputation is not the best on parts availability for retail customers wanting to do their own repairs.

[@Tom-hn2iq]

Nice review. Not just a shooting video. Appreciate your time. I've owned both pistols. I'm left handed and just couldn't get used to working around the DW single sided safety. DW could have switched it for close to $300. Very nice gun but just not for me. I traded it in for a DW specialist in .45. The gun was a total lemon. Back to them five times and finally got a refund (whole 'nuther story). I have owned my EMP 4 about two years and is one that I will keep. For me it's accurate and reliable. As you stated, quality piece but not custom or semi-custom.

[@RidersRange]

Tom, thanks for watching and for your comments. It's unfortunate that you had a bad experience with Dan Wesson, but I'm glad you found that the EMP works well for you. The EMP was specifically designed for the shorter 9mm/.40S&W cartridge, so in theory, it should work better than a 1911 that was tuned for the 9mm cartridge.

[@AffordableArmory]

See this is why I love your channel. I always learn something. I never would’ve even thought about the EMP as not being a 1911. “If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...” Thanks for the lesson!

[@RidersRange]

Affordable Armory, thanks for your kind comment.

[@tigerman3]

Great review! I have a Guardian chambered in .38 Super and absolutely love it!

[@RidersRange]

Sean, thanks for watching and for your comment. I’ve thought about .38 Super and considered adding one to the collection, but then I’d have to add one more caliber to my Dillon setup. I’m glad you like your Guardian.

[@atulganguly73]

Excellent review! Thank you for doing this. I’ve been looking at both of these firearms. Think I’ll save up for the Guardian 😉

[@RidersRange]

Atul Ganguly, thanks for subscribing and for your comment. I’m sure you won’t be disappointed with the Guardian. I hope Dan Wesson has corrected the issue with the 9mm Guardians shooting high, but if not, they will change the front sight at no charge with quick turn-around.

[@Nuke-China]

There's also the DWX Compact to consider.

[@RidersRange]

Adam, the DWX sure looks interesting, but no release date yet. And at a MSRP of $1,799, it’s a whole lot more than a DW Guardian.

[@s.j.5850]

What determines the type of pistol is the design, not so much the dimensions. The Springfield EMP4 is a 1911 design. So the question is really pointless. Same features as a 1911, different magazine.

[@RidersRange]

S. Jorgenson, I agree that the subject is subjective and rather arbitrary, so it could be considered pointless. But it did generate some discussion. Thanks for watching and for commenting.

[@harryturnerjrmd2578]

Enjoyed the video, but disagree with author's contention that different SIZED parts make the EMP not a 1911. That is the entire reason it was made.....to be smaller. The parts were all still 1911 design parts...to further argue the point, different makes and models of conventionally sized 1911s all show some dimensional variation, but do not fail to be 1911 designs because of size differences...different designs of parts would....size....no

[@RidersRange]

Dr. Turner, thanks for watching and adding your thoughts. This video has prompted more dissenting comments that any other on my channel, but that's a good thing. I do like what Springfield has dome to make the EMP more suited to the shorter 9mm/.40S&W cartridges, while still keeping the 1911 "bones" and ergonomics. However, it's still my opinion - and JUST my opinion - that if it won't fit a 1911 magazine, it's not quite an actual 1911. Even Springfield leaves some wiggle room on the subject by saying this: "Nestled between the full size 1911 and the 911, the patented EMP is just right."

[@frankeast947]

Purists like this bug me. So is it wrong to make improvements on the 1911 over the years? Especially adapting to 9mm

[@RidersRange]

Frank, I'm far from being a purist. I easily accept the external extractors on the Smiths and Sigs. I also highly appreciate improvements, and the EMP certainly improves on John Browning's design, making it theoretically more reliable for the shorter 9mm and .40S&W cartridges. The 1911 design has definitely evolved over the past century, though not anywhere near as much as the Corvette automobile. (You want controversy, start a discussion in a dedicated Corvette group on whether or not the new C8 Corvette is true to the Corvette design.) My comments on the differences certainly prompted positional discussion. Thanks for contributing.

[@larryinokc]

You don't know what you're talking about. The EMP, in fact, DOES have a match grade barrel.

[@RidersRange]

Larry, you are absolutely correct. I was mistaken. The EMP doesn’t say “match” on the barrel, but the Springfield website does say it has a match grade barrel. I count on viewers such as yourself to provide correction when I don’t get it right. So, thanks for watching and for providing the clarification.

[@frankbutta9344]

Great Shooting with the Dan Wesson! I have a zillion .45 and 9mm 1911 magazines, so the EMP would be too much of a hassle for me in that regard. 👍👍👍👍👍

[@RidersRange]

Thanks, Frank. The Guardian is a great shooter that makes me look good.

[@darylragland7283]

I love my EMP4 and probably won't ever carry a full size 1911 again. ✌ and it is a TACK DRIVER or it's just me. Lol

[@RidersRange]

Daryl, if I didn't have so many different 1911s and all the mags that go with them, I could be happy with the EMP. With that match barrel, it is accurate.

[@darylragland7283]

@@RidersRange I understand. Great video. I'll be waiting for the next one. Thanks

[@saga2760]

Great video!!!!!! The irony and the dilemma between this two when trying to make a choice. If you are in "COMMIFFORNIA", this two are off roaster list at this state and for that you'll pay more. As of today 9/28/22 The Dan Wesson goes for 2,000 and the Springfield for 1500 used in very, very good condition. I did notice thought, the 45acp next to the 9mm looks like my ex-wife, short and very chubby.

[@LuisRuiz-sv2mz]

Impressive

[@Rostontn]

For the algorithms

[@RidersRange]

Every little bit helps. Thanks.

[@daspiper8941]

That's to much money for the EMP, IMO.

[@RidersRange]

For a plain EMP, I agree. But for the Concealed Carry Contour, the actual market prices seems about right. But I still like the DW Guardian better. I hope you have a great 2020.

[@junito1957]

FUNNY THAT PEOPLE BUY A I PHONE AND DONT CRY ABOUT IT AND IT LAST FOR ABOUT 4 YEARS THEN IT BECOME A PAPER WEIGHT A EMP WILL LAST PASS YOUR GREAT GREAT GREAT GRAND SON , ALSO HOW MUCH DO YOU LIFE WORTH? SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT

[@Rubeless]

Research the EMP, Springfield has a 30% return due to malfunctions. Their customer service is all female and could care less about it being a carry pistol. Remove your caps and take a grammar lesson.

[@fredheblon4687]

You sound like Herman Munster....

[@RidersRange]

Fred, if you are saying I sound like the original voice of Herman Munster, played by the late Fred Gwynne, it is quite a compliment (I think). But if you are talking about the Herman Munster, played by John Schuck from The Munsters Today, that may not be such a compliment. Anyway, thanks. And thanks for watching.

[@fredheblon4687]

@@RidersRange Fred Gwynne. The original.

[@johnrus7661]

By that logic any 9mm 1911 is not a 1911. That's really dumb. In either approach, you are shrinking dimensions to make the 9mm work. And Springfield did it really in a more elegant way by engendering it the right way rather than mickey mouse it with spacers and such.

[@RidersRange]

I never said or implied that Springfield didn't make a good gun out of the EMP. I only said that MY criteria for a 1911 was that it had to accept 1911 mags. That includes 9mm, .38 Super, 9x21, .40S&W, 10mm, the original design for the 11.5mm (aka .45ACP) and others. Otherwise, it's "1911-like", or "based on the 1911 design", or "similar in many ways to the 1911 pistol", but it's certainly NOT a 1911. But that's just my criteria. Anyway, thanks for watching and commenting.

[@johnrus7661]

@RidersRange You clearly not reading what I said. Nowhere did I say one word about quality. The notion it is not a true 1911 because it it has to shrink the internal parts and such to fire the 9mm is ridiculous. By that logic any 1911 that doesn't fire 45 acp is not a true 1911. Because they ALL need to shrink the internal mechanisms to function. Either do that with spacers or do it right way and design stuff the corect size to support said cartridge. The Springfield did was the logical and better way to do it. But it's still 100% a 1911, just designed to handle 9mm. That's all. They didn't change how it fundamentally works.

[@waynecastleman1363]

LOL Emperor Scorpion bobtail

[@RidersRange]

👍

[@Jaybird-oo3ih]

EMP all day every day. 😤 DW!!

[@RidersRange]

The EMP is a nice shooting gun, and optimized for the 9mm and .40S&W rounds. Unfortunately, for someone who has a lot of 1911 magazines, the EMP isn't quite ideal, as it only uses proprietary mags. Thanks for watching and commenting.

[@bobdole7701]

I say no to the Springfield.I want regular mags for my firearms not some special cant find em pain in the ass magazines.JMHO.

[@grasunmajjurach6026]

VERYGOOD VERYGOOD THAILAND

[@RidersRange]

Thanks for watching and for your kind comment.

[@drharryjmaue203]

It’s not apples for apples it’s a 9mm not a .45 this is a very inept review

[@RidersRange]

Harry, sorry that contrasting two slightly different guns that have the same philosophy of use didn't meet your standards, but thanks for watching and commenting.

[@Jaybird-oo3ih]

And yes the EMP IS a 1911 the DW is not that great of a pistol. The only thing the DW is better than, is the Dan Wesson revolvers lol

[@RidersRange]

Jay, we can agree to disagree. And I do have to ask just how much experience you have with Dan Wesson, or any other brand. But thanks for watching.

[@isidorobautista5975]

uy

[@henryschmidt636]

The EMP is as much a 1911 as is a P938 or whatever fancy name Kimber calls their Mustang knock off........ No they are not 1911's. Not one bit.

[@RidersRange]

Henry, I agree. The EMP, and even the Browning Black Label .380 (review coming up) are at best, ALMOST 1911s, while the Kimber/Sig/Springfield/Colt Micro-pistols are 1911 wanna-be guns at best.

[@lemham4565]

@@RidersRange it sounds like you put the 938, EMP, etc in a negative light. They might not be pure 1911's but the systems they are based on are very very good. Another 1911 based I just purchased is the Ruger SR 1911 officer very nice firearm.

[@RidersRange]

LEM HAM, my intent was not to disparage the EMP, or any other 1911-like firearm. My EMP CCC has run perfectly, as has my P938, my Kimber Micro 9, Kimber Micro .380, Sig P238, Colt Mustang, and Browning Black Label .380. (Unfortunately, I can't say as much for my Springfield 911 .380.) All are based on the general 1911 design, through the EMP and Browning .380 are closer to the original than the Mustang, et al. My point was that the EMP doesn't accept 1911 magazines and won't fit many other 1911 parts, so it isn't a "true" 1911. That doesn't mean it isn't a good choice for a carry gun. My preference for the Guardian in the review is based on my personal experience with both guns, but it's just that - my personal opinion. As the expression goes, "your mileage may vary". Your selection of the Ruger SR1911 Officer is a good choice. I own one and have shot the range video comparing the Ruger Officer 1911 9mm with a Dan Wesson ECO. I hope to do the tabletop part and edit the video this week so I can get it posted by the weekend. The comparison between the sub-$800 Ruger and the much more expensive ECO should prove interesting. Thanks for watching and for for commenting.

[@chuckmatses6803]

What does it matter if it’s a “real” 1911, or not? I know, all the purists out there, right? Wow, it’s not a “real” 1911. It must be better then, doh.

[@RidersRange]

Chuck, thanks for watching and bring up the point. The EMP is a fine pistol, but I pointed out the differences because there are some who may think that because it looks like a 1911, it will fit in all holsters designed for a 1911, or it will take 1911 magazines.

[@Jaybird-oo3ih]

This guy is nothing but a DW fanboy

[@RidersRange]

Jay, if you watched all 22 parts of my Great Affordable 1911 Series, as well as the many reviews I have done since I ended that series, you would know that I call it like it see it. If I am a "fan" of any particular brand, it's only because of my experience with multiple examples of that brand when compared with other brands. And in my considerable experience with 1911 pistols, Dan Wesson makes the premier "production" 1911. Thanks for watching and commenting.

[@wardroland270]

Thanks RR. Great job. Good info. God bless. LETS GO BRANDON

[@RidersRange]

Thanks for watching.