1992 Rosehill Guineas - Naturalism vs Veandercross

[@dazzac74]

I never realised how good Naturalism was, but Veandercross was a tragedy beaten in this race. But they dont pay for the best horse beaten.

[@austhaitravela]

Yes they pay second prize money 😃 also a certainty beaten in the Caulfield Cup.

[@JodyForbes]

Veandercross was never a tragedy beaten beyond 10 furlongs and he wasn't here either. This was not a strong era and he had his chance. Veandercross had more brilliance in terms of a short sprint than Naturalism but Naturalism was gamer with more bottom end. Even in this Rosehill Guineas, it was essentially a 2 horse race as there was nothing of more than subsequent handicap class that filled the large field. Shane Dye took the bad publicity for Veandercross never being able to be stout beyond his brilliance in his career. He was a good but limited horse.

[@metminco]

Where was he supposed to go? Veandercross got back in his races. In big fields sometimes you have to go around them.

[@JodyForbes]

Which he coudn't..... because he was limited to scraping the paint as much as reasonably practicable. He was no star, and his record reflected that.

[@warrencundy]

Finally if u ever come to NZ & talk the crap u have about Sunline u wouldn’t get out the Country alive!

[@warrencundy]

Was just looking at the Australian Thoroughbred Website guess what I found there Hall of Fame Horses there was Happy Clapper Humidor Hartnell & Criterion in there sorry they ain’t & never will be u need to inform them how wrong they r not to have these 4 horses in there u know they won 25% or less of their starts every race they ran in was a Group 1 wasn’t u tell them because u know it all! Then I saw some cat named Sunline 3x Australian Horse of the Year Top rated Turf Mare in the World she was in the Hall of Fame ! Also that other cat Tie the Knot guess what he’s in the Hall of Fame too u know why because they won 13 Group 1 Races each ! Also that Other Kiwi u have never heard or Balmerino is in the Hall of Fame too! So everyone is wrong but u r right please tell everyone your opinion besides myself so we can all laugh at u & your timeform ratings!Mean everything to u! When is a World Record not a World Record apparently when it is achieved by a Kiwi Horse named Horlicks that run is even faster than the Great Secretariet when it won the Belmont! Your Analysis is such crap Usain Bolt sets a World Record in the 100m but no it doesn’t count because the field was weak according to the Timeform Rating sorry a World Record is a World Record that means u went faster than anyone or in particular a Horse over that distance in History so get over it! Broardcast your opinion to everyone let’s all laugh at your statistics! Also u weren’t the best Winx because u never raced the best ! To b the best u have to beat the best she never did beat them in Hong Kong Europe or especially Japan

[@richie9814]

The dreamer also said that the 1989 Japan Cup field was low quality. It included the 1988 Japan Cup winner, the 1989 Prix de l'Arc winner and the (still) reigning world record holder for a mile and a half on turf (Hawkster). @Jody: How many Japan Cup winners did Winx beat? How many Prix de l'Arc winners did Winx beat? You do know the Prix de l'Arc is the world's most prestigious all-aged horse race right? Probably not, because your google stats are limited to NSW and Victoria. How many world record holder did Winx beat? The answer to all questions is none, because it raced the same small field of local horses in virtually every race it ran.

[@owen7185]

I feel anger when a jockey costs the best horse victory.

[@dazzac74]

Jump on and show us how its done, champion

[@diden3527]

@@dazzac74 do the maths cuz - 8 - 9 wide on the bend....how much yardage....

[@MrP19883]

How many times did Veandercross get rolled by going so wide. Great horse anyways

[@warrencundy]

So who was the opposition she beat in 4x Cox Plates I’m waiting for u to name any potential Champions or Group 1 Winners she beat in those 4 races plus any other Group 1 Winners of consequence?Sunline Won the Doncaster x2 3year old $2 Favourite & 5year old with a bigger Weight than your Winx had !Here is who she beat in the Cox Plate Bro Tessa Rossa 6x Group 1 Show a Heart 4x Group 1 Sky Heights 4x Group 1 Shogun Lodge 3x Group1 12 x Runner up Group1s oooh & some nobody named Tie the Knot 13x Group 1 Winner in the same race Bro! Still waiting for all the Champions that Winx beat oooh that’s right only Sdyney & Melbourne but a World beater in your own backyard! Please list her opponents & how many Group 1s they all won so U can prove me wrong but I think not that’s why u haven’t in your little rant!

[@warrencundy]

U still never back up your figures those 4 top line opponents won 41 races in their entire careers that ain’t good enough in anyone’s book 193 Races between them facts no Champions sorry just above average! No reply to why Winx never went overseas? The Diva in Japan your great 3x Cup Winner who Freedman had the Audacity to say was better than Phar Lap now that’s funny!

[@warrencundy]

U still haven’t mentioned the Race records of your Horses sorry Humidor 9 wins 50 Starts Criterion 7 out of 37 Happy Clapper 12 of 48 Hartnell 13 of 58 bro that’s laughable u say they were great what r u smoking none of them won even 30% of their starts in their whole careers all Sunline could do was beat what’s in front of u & she did! Winx overseas not racing why didn’t they u know why they didn’t want to lose the undefeated streak not the other crap they said at the time! The Diva I can’t hear u the 3x Cup Winner smashed in Japan ! Horlicks World Record u know it was 2:22 for 2400m right! Something Winx never did race overseas anywhere & win ! U know the Tennis Analogy is I win the Australian Open Tennis every year but I don’t take on the best in the World namely French Open Us Open Wimbledon also I call myself the best in the World beating a couple of Aussies every year with a couple of overseas players turning up ! Was she a Frankel do u rate him no! Your 4 horses 193 Combined Starts 41 wins I do facts not opinions like u their records r crap go on tell how they were great horses with records like that u can’t & thats why u haven’t! She was great but we don’t know how good she was because she never not once left Australia those Owners did a great disservice to The Australian Thoroughbred Industry! By the Way Horlicks still holds the Record for Tokyo as the course was changed in later years ! Did u know another NZer called Balmerino got 2nd in the Arc which is a higher placing than any Australian horse ever did also probably should of won had a European Jockey on Her & he let her get to far back if it was the Regular Jockey Maurice Campbell he would of had her handier & the Arc was stolen by the Greatest Jockey ever Lester Piggot

[@warrencundy]

Was it Shane Dye this & Caulfield Cup ride not Shane’s best what NZ would give 2 had a Veandercross now 2nd in Melbourne Cup too wet track cost him would of smashed Sub Zero but not in those Track Conditions

[@666dr]

Rubbish..Veandercross won mackinnon on the bog track and was beaten fairly and squarely by a superior stayer in the cup and a perfect Greg Hall ride .

[@warrencundy]

So u think Sub Zero was a better horse than Veandercross rubbish bro how many Group 1s did he win how many races on rain affected tracks? Veandercross was 2nd in both the Caulfield and Melbourne Cups how about the old Grey how did he go in those races? How many WFA did he win a career ain’t built on 1 win in the Cup if dry world never of beaten the 2 Kiwis Castletown bro!

[@JodyForbes]

He never said Subzero was the better horse. Definitely the better stayer though unless you want to argue that insanity???. Veandercross never won beyond 10 furlongs which isn't even a classic distance???? The Caulfield and Melbourne Cups are both Handicaps and by their very nature are inferior in terms of standard in racing yet Veandercross couldn't win either of them over a distance..??? Subzero definitely outstayed Veandercross in the Melbourne Cup BRO. To be honest Veandercross never had a spectacular WFA record either . He was the nearly man. Always needed the stars to align or something to fall over to get there. His overall record was at best journeyman status. 15 from 40 is hardly the stuff of legends. He was just a horse. If you're looking for a a kiwi horse that was unheralded then you could do worse than Castletown, who was a much better stayer than Veandercross,a proper stayer that could carry weight at the top level beyond 2400 metres, and win at WFA rarely. In reality apart from Veandercross being more brilliant, there's no more substance.

[@warrencundy]

That’s 5 Group 1s in Australia & NZ bro which was good enough to b Australian Horse of the Year Venandercross a fact Fact 2 who was No 1 in the 2002 Doncaster u guessed it Sunline equal top weight as a Mare! U haven’t mentioned about the Champ Winx never won a Handicap Race?Right silence is deafening & where did she race again oooh that’s right Victoria & Sdyney they don’t race thoroughbred horses anywhere else but there ! Wasn’t Sunline the highest rated Mare in the World & 3 x Australian Horse of the Year & had the Prizemoney record those r facts bro not opinions & they way u r rubbishing NZ horses pull your head in Rising Fast onwards NZ used to dominate your Melbourne Cup either NZ owned or bred horses won that race for 40 years bro go back & have a look like u did with Sunline No1 2002 Doncaster oooh Tie the Knot Shogun Lodge that’s right they only won like 13 Group 1s between them have a look at the fields she beat than look at the Champions Winx beat I can’t remember 1 yes A Group 1 horse that Winx beat that won more than say 5 Group 1s no they were all crap small fields she never had to worry about getting into trouble because they were inferior & there was only 6-8 of them it’s hilarious actually

[@JodyForbes]

Veandercross never won 5 Group 1's in Australia. Didn't Winx win the Doncaster carrying a record weight for a 4 year old mare? Pretty sure the Doncaster is a Handicap??? Something Sunline couldn't do at 4??? Dude, what planet are you on?? Rising Fast was 70 years ago.... I mean seriously fella, the game has gone past you.

[@warrencundy]

Was the Horse of the Year 92/93 Bro not a Journey Man U know how much prizemoney that journey man won exactly?The Group 1s no u do your History bro U don’t win the Australian Horse of the Year if u r a Journeyman plus he then was injured a lot he was horse of the year when he was 4

[@JodyForbes]

I'll leave it to you to count but I'd hazard a guess at not much, but you can do the sums regarding inflation, however the reality is he could never be described as a backable commodity and I suspect few won large on him, and even if they did, it would be an outlier. Veandercross was a gonna, like most kiwi horses, especially nowadays. But I'm happy to be all ears Bro Town if you want to explain to me how great he was with his 15 from 40 career stats. That's a shocking percentage and even worse in Australia.

[@warrencundy]

Let’s start Bro 5 Group 1s in a Season plus 2nds in the Caulfield & Melbourne Cups that’s Horse of the Year Bro ! Now Kiwi Horses have u ever heard of Phar Lap mayb Sunline who actually won overseas not like the Protected species called Winx only ever ran in Sdyney Brisbane Melbourne no where else & u call yourself the Best in the World sorry to b the best at anything u have to beat the best & she never raced the best Europeans Japanese especially or Hong Kong Horses ! U know how many races Sunline lost in NZ I know u don’t 0 races mate she could of raced her whole career in Nz 50 starts 50 wins & called herself the Worlds best like Winx but they didn’t they wanted to take on the best in the World & they did & they beat them ! Winx the insular Champion of NSW & Victoria now if she had gone to Dubai or Hong Kong like Sunline & won then yes Greatness but how many handicap Races did she ever win ooooh that’s right 0!Sunline No 1 Top Weight in the Doncaster 20 horse field won ! Winx what was the usual Field 6-8 including her that’s laughable!

[@JodyForbes]

@@warrencundy Bring it on Bro Town. Veandercross never won 5 Group 1s in a season in Australia. Not even close. He was a cat. Sunline never lost in NZ because she raced against camels. She could have raced 1000x there because they race for ribbons wrapping peanuts. Sunline never beat the best the in the world, she was beaten in HK by a European Group 2 horse and then went back 12 months later and fell in to beat a HK battler at a reduced distance. Sunline never beat world class opposition, she never even tackled it.She was smacked in Dubai by the same European Group 2 horse that bounced her on her head in Honkers. Wake up Fool, Sunline was never outright topweight in the Doncaster either Butthead.

[@JodyForbes]

@@warrencundy 5 Group 1's.... Lol. Not in Australia. NZ Group 1 's are listed level at best anywhere else I'm afraid imbecile... . Find some other content that might somehow stack up.

[@richie9814]

@@JodyForbes Sunline was the number 1 saddlecloth in the 2002 Doncaster. Given you don't seem to know anything about racing, that means it's the top weight. And to your ridiculous statement that Veandercross didn't come close to winning 5 group 1s in a season, again because you don't seem to know anything about racing, a horse's age dictates the season. They're not calendar seasons you muppet. So in his 4 year old season he won the MacKinnon, Australian Cup, Ranvet and BMW - all of them group 1s and the Carlyon (group 2). How can you say that's not close to 5 group 1s. How about you go away, do some homework, do an apprenticeship, learn a few things, and then come back in a few years and engage me in a proper debate. Weirdo.

[@richardscrymgeour4725]

You have reminder he did not have the jockey on him mickdittman on him he will won but he Shane dye

[@louieeldorado7033]

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