2. Is Jesus a Created Being?

[@Justice4vr]

its no burden, the bible says we should seek those deserving, and your unwillingness to cooperate by answering a simple question will keep you blind as you are. Even if you answered it now, I wouldnt continue because there is no point in helping a blind man who doesnt want to see. Remember, God is a spirit and those worshiping him must do it with spirit and TRUTH.

[@billybari8081]

You are right that "firstborn" doesn't always mean first to be born or created but you are wrong in drawing the conclusion that Jesus was not created because of that possibility offered by Psalm 89:27! 1. First of all, *even though firstborn does not always mean first to be born; it is definitely and always an INCLUSIVE not an exclusive term!* Whenever you refer to someone as "firstborn"; you are INCLUDING him in whatever he is firstborn of or over! For example at Colossians 1:18; Jesus is also called: "firstborn from the dead"! It would be ridiculous (just as your arguments are in this video); to argue that *even though Jesus is called the "firstborn from the dead"; he was never dead nor resurrected or never came back from the dead!* The expression has to necessarily mean that *Jesus is INCLUDED among those who once died and came back from the dead!* Similarly, Colossians 1:15 NECESSARY means that Jesus is part of what God, the Father created! However; we do have even more compelling evidence that Jesus was created: the most compelling evidence is that Jesus refer to YHWH not just as his Father but also "his God", his creator! I know Trinitarians argue that he did this ONLY because he was still human here on earth (John 20:17), but evidence shows that he continued to call his Father; "his God" even after his resurrection and anscension to heaven, COMPLEYELY shuttering the false teachings of Trinitarians (Revelation 3:12; Revelation 3:2; Revelation 1:6). Even Jesus' apostles understood that Jesus had "a God", a creator even after he had returned to heaven and began ruling as king: 2 Corinthians 11:31; Ephesians 1:3; etc.. *Clearly an uncreated being can't have "a God"; can he?* Then you have Hebrews 1:9 which clearly shows that *Jesus had "fellows" or "companions" above who he was anointed.....and by whom? Again by "HIS God"!* Who are these "fellows" of Jesus? the angels! *Were the angels also not created because the bible does not tell us when they were created?* Of course no....they were created Just as Jesus was, but *in a different timeline than ours, BEFORE THE world was (John 17:4-5; Job 38:4-7; etc...)!* The bible is replete with evidence that Jesus was created by his Father, before the world was and that Jesus was in fact the one who then created our universe (Proverbs 8:22-31; John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:15-17; etc)

[@ManofChrist101]

IN Colossians 1:15 He is also called the creator of all things, which would imply that He Himself is not a created being. Which would exclude the first meaning

[@s1lvrinferno]

@LetReasonPrevail1 can you show me the fossil records showing the transition between micro and macro evolution?

[@NowaydudeOrg]

What is awesome is that Jesus left an empty tomb & is coming back. Now, that's AWESOME!

[@ManofChrist101]

1) You take that verse out of context. It was talking about house guests not youtube comments. 2) You seem to lack the readiness to answer why its relevant...so now whose demonstrating hypocrisy? 3) I am ready to give an answer but not to someone who already thinks they alone know everything. Mind your ego! Just because i am not acquiesing to you doesnt mean i am rebutting God. Because YOURE NOT GOD

[@MrNinamarie]

One Minute Apologist=Awesome. In Jeremiah 31:9, Ephraim is called the Lord's "firstborn" although literally Manasseh, Ephriam's older brother, was the "firstborn" (Gen.48:18). In this context, as well as the example on this video, "firstborn" is employed as a designation for primacy. I feel pretty confident the OMA is aware of this, but with only one minute to work, he wouldn't have had the time to include it!

[@Mentat1231]

The problem is that Revelation 3:14 also calls Jesus "the beginning of the creation of God". Also 1 John 5:18 says that he is "the one born from God", where it uses the Greek word "gen'nao" which cannot be confused for meaning greatness. It can only mean "begetting" or "producing". The fact that there are examples of "firstborn" being used to mean something else doesn't change what it meant in this case, in light of the verb "gen'nao" and the separate description in Rev 3:14. Peace.

[@bluefish704]

@sleepy4031 Interchange on the object of adress is most usual when quoting prophecy (Psalm 8, Ezek. 28). It can just as well be Jesus and it most likely is, given the usage of πρωτότοκος throughout scripture (Gen. 43:33) as well as it's etymology. Jesus is indeed the heir of all creation. He was first in birthorder thus having this birthright. The doctrine is not built on one verse, it is corraborated (Prov. 8:22 and Col. 1:18 usage of πρωτότοκος again applied to Jesus in the sense of order).

[@siicpaxsheechpaw]

This guy on the video is wrong.David was given the title of first born.Jesus was not given this title,Jesus is literally the first born of creation.Rev 3:14,says" And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;"The Divine Name KJ bible.In the Greek it uses the definite Article "the" in front of the word "beginning" showing that this is the very start of the beginning.Jesus was created.

[@johnrambo9104]

People think they'll go to hell if they find out something else is true, so they like to stay in error, keeping the family peace. Jesus is his begotten son, which means he had a beginning, and is the first being God created. Being God's son, there is none higher than he in this creation God created for him, and Jesus bought mankind with his blood to all who believe in him. The Holy Spirit is God, not a separate being at all. There it is.

[@ManofChrist101]

Clearly you dont want an honest discourse. You just want to rant. I asked you to explain relevance and you started name calling. You said i wasnt a real Christian and you said i was a liar. (Both of which were unrpovoked). You were very disrespectful. It shows you came here to "rant" or "put people that disagree with you in thier place" but not to have discussion.

[@ManofChrist101]

The greek word for "firstborn" is PROTOKOS, which has two meanings, it means a) literal first born b) first in rank or preiminent IN the context of that scriptuse we can understand that i had the second meaning, of first in rank as Jesus is GOD NUMERO UNO! Just like in english words meaning is context sensitive i.e. the word spring can mean the season or a bed-spring, depending on context... the same kind of thing exists in greek hope this helps

[@Justice4vr]

I will show how its relevant, but you must answer first. Is "all things" in Eph 1:22 avsolute? no exception?

[@elizabethpeterson8604]

There is a difference between begotten and made. A dog can have a puppy and a person a baby but a person can make a statue, merely a picture of themselves. Jesus is begotten of God, same as Him and not a statue or picture of God.

[@AstariahJW]

Col. 1:15, 16, RS: “He [Jesus Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth.” In what sense is Jesus Christ “the first-born of all creation”? (1) Trinitarians say that “first-born” here means prime, most excellent, most distinguished; thus Christ would be understood to be, not part of creation, but the most distinguished in relation to those who were created. If that is so, and if the Trinity doctrine is true, why are the Father and the holy spirit not also said to be the firstborn of all creation? But the Bible applies this expression only to the Son. According to the customary meaning of “firstborn,” it indicates that Jesus is the eldest in Jehovah’s family of sons. (2) Before Colossians 1:15, the expression “the firstborn of” occurs upwards of 30 times in the Bible, and in each instance that it is applied to living creatures the same meaning applies-the firstborn is part of the group. “The firstborn of Israel” is one of the sons of Israel; “the firstborn of Pharaoh” is one of Pharaoh’s family; “the firstborn of beast” are themselves animals. What, then, causes some to ascribe a different meaning to it at Colossians 1:15? Is it Bible usage or is it a belief to which they already hold and for which they seek proof? (3) Does Colossians 1:16, 17 (RS) exclude Jesus from having been created, when it says “in him all things were created through him and for him”? The Greek word here rendered “all things” is panʹta, an inflected form of pas. At Luke 13:2, RS renders this “all . . . other”; JB reads “any other”; NE says “anyone else.” (See also Luke 21:29 in NE and Philippians 2:21 in JB.) In harmony with everything else that the Bible says regarding the Son, NW assigns the same meaning to panʹta at Colossians 1:16, 17 so that it reads, in part, “by means of him all other things were created . . . All other things have been created through him and for him.” Thus he is shown to be a created being, part of the creation produced by God.

[@AstariahJW]

False religion really blinded people to the truth Jesus is the beginning of God's creation , revelation 3:14 , even trinitarian bibles have render it as beginning of God's creation Since Satan has blinded the world to the truth , only a few would know the bible truths Jesus said the good news of God's kingdom has to be preached first then the end will come

[@therealdavidboyd]

Boom! He shots, he scores. Back of the net. Jesus is the uncreated, preeminent Lord, God with us and God in the flesh.

[@ManofChrist101]

Your hostile response of accusing me of dishonesty and a lack of a relationship with God just because i said your question was irrelevant shows you lack the fruit of peace (Ephesians 5:22) of the Holy Spirit. If i were you i would work on that.

[@mitchellc4]

Yes Hello Jesus is the Messiah The Son of God The Son of David The Son of man The man God has chosen to be his anointed king The man God will judge the world through The man God raised from the dead Jesus has a God There is no triune god in scripture Jesus said the Father is the only true God! John 17 3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent. -

[@bluefish704]

@sleepy4031 Why are you mentioning my person so much? Anyway, I won't puss the subject further unless you want me to. A scholar's job is to study, investigate, form opinions on certain data and the test them. It's not to destroy people. I realize that I represent an unpopular view. But you can watch a debate between a JW and one of your most appreciated reformed theologians. Here is the first part. . . watch?v=2C2zr4Ov5js

[@ManofChrist101]

I dont want to play a semantics game with a series of leading questions. Just explain to me your interpretation so we can have a real discourse

[@michaba03m]

Wow very professional- I like!

[@ManofChrist101]

You said you would "show me how its relevant" obviously you have a point you want to make. Why dont you just make the point?

[@aservantofJEHOVAH7849]

Psalms 83:18"that men may know that thou,whose name ALONE is JEHOVAH,art the MOST HIGH over all the earth." Note please that there is but one named JEHOVAH. Note also that this one is the MOST HIGH. Thus if ones God is associated with multiple co'equals (e.g the trinitarian Jesus). He is not the Lord JEHOVAH.

[@Justice4vr]

hahaha, riiiight. Im still waiting for your answer, we will leave it at that.

[@aservantofJEHOVAH7849]

1John1:1KJV"1That which was from(Greek apo) the beginning(Greek arkhe) which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life" This passage clearly indicates that the Logos had a beginning See proverbs8:22-30. Unlike his God and Father JEHOVAH who is from eternity. Psalms90:2KJV"2Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God"

[@Justice4vr]

Sir Youre the one playing games here. I asked you a simple question and you wont answer me, why? Why cant you just answer me? Have you got no answer? One cant ask a Christian a question and have his question answered, please answer the question or shall I seek the answer elsewhere?

[@Justice4vr]

I see , "all things" to you is absolute, not relative. Is "all things" in ephesians 1:22 absolute or relative? No exception?

[@ManofChrist101]

Actually the burden of proof is still on you to explain its relevance to the discussion

[@Justice4vr]

Its not what you said, but what you didnt say. Your hostile response of accusing me of lacking the fruit of peace shows your lack of the fruit of peace... and around we go. "Do not hurry yourself in your spirit to become offended, for the taking of offense is what rests in the bosom of the stupid ones." Ecl 7:9 Maybe you should work on that.

[@mystery7777777777]

@yodeboubtripin these rules come from his very nature. He is a Good God. the rules that you makes are good.

[@Justice4vr]

"Into whatever city or village YOU enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until YOU leave" Mt 10:11 I didnt know asking a question and seeking an answer is "manipulation" of a discussion, maybe refusing to answer TO THIS DEGREE is "manipulation" dont you think? Does the scripture not teach us to be ready to give an answer? But hey, I can only come to the conclusion that you lack a love for truth.

[@Justice4vr]

Why dont you show us with the context that the first meaning DOES NOT apply? Go on.

[@s1lvrinferno]

@LetReasonPrevail1 thats no different then you looking in a science book to prove a point, which you have not done the experiment on, just like theists you are talking other peoples word on it.

[@mystery7777777777]

@yodeboubtripin The lamb of God died on the cross for us, so we could have eternal life. It was not God the Father or God the Holy Spirit that came down.

[@ManofChrist101]

How is that relevant?

[@Justice4vr]

1. wesleys notes Matthew 10:11 Inquire who is worthy -That you should abide with him: who is disposed to receive the Gospel. There abide -In that house, till ye leave the town. Mark 6:10; Luke 9:4 "And wherever a place will not receive YOU nor hear YOU, on going out from there shake off the dirt that is beneath YOUR feet for a witness to them." Mark 6:11 Youre not willing to receive the truth so I shake off the dirt from under my feet. Read the context and parallels next time Try again.

[@earlhutchison4291]

An Image is not what it reflects.

[@SkinnyAndShort]

Was Jesus created? Yes, Rev 3:14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:

[@Justice4vr]

You Trinitarians always playing these games. Your answer IS part of the point. What are you afraid of? Ive waiting for your answer since yesterday. You have the truth right? Why wont you give me a simple answer? Are you afraid Im gonna corner you or something? but you have the truth!!! What have you got to lose? You say "all things" in Col 1:16 is absolute, well what about Eph 1:22, absolute? No exception? Everyone watching is waiting for your answer...

[@ManofChrist101]

Oh yes judging people you dont know. Good job.. you just wanted to start a fight, not communicate. You cant answer a simple question. I told you it was not relevant and you failed to addresss my concern

[@Justice4vr]

"proof text this proof text that"... show us where Jesus says "I am The God"!!! Should I show you where he says he is "The Son of God"???

[@ish9455]

Show us where Jesus said "I am not God" first and then we will go from there.

[@ManofChrist101]

I already told you its not relevant. I am not intimidated by your contentious attitude.

[@LetReasonPrevail1]

@s1lvrinferno Trying to equivocate science with biblical interpretation is an all-too-common knee-jerk reaction of theists, and it exposes the massive insecurity that they have regarding the intellectual grounding of their beliefs. Said another way: Deep down you know that your beliefs in the imaginery are silly and irrational, so you seek to make all other beliefs equally irrational and baseless, so that your superstitious nonsense doesn't stick out so much as the foolishness that it is.

[@ManofChrist101]

"seek those deserving?" Find me those exact words "Bible Scholar" Youre just throwing a tantrum because i wont let you manipulate the conversation, enjoy your flailing

[@Justice4vr]

your unwillingness to provide an answer reveals your dishonesty in seeking truth. When you become a real man of christ and seek truth let me know.

[@LetReasonPrevail1]

Your response is terrifically fallacious, and your comparison is completely erroneous The fact that the bible as it is written is open to untold numbers of interpretations is nothing at all like considering a scientific study without having done the experiment myself And regardless, scientific studies are never claimed to be authored by divine revelation from the creator of existence. As such, believers have burdened the bible with a higher bar of consistentcy that it falls woefully short of

[@bluefish704]

@sleepy4031 You dummy, I know that Prov. 8:22 refears to wisdom. Here the wisdom of God is personified as Jesus. This isn't some whacky unitarianist interprertation. It's a common place. Look it up somewhere. Hebrews 1:4 says that he is above the angels but nothing to identify him with God. Couldn't agree more. Jesus is the most high of all creation, the only direct creation of God. He truly is a god above the other gods (Psalm 82:6, 1 Cor: 8-5,6).

[@axetogrind59]

@LetReasonPrevail1 Science continues to prove God where have you been? Famous Atheists like Dr flew recant and now state there is a creator. Einstien. You think you are smart but you are the dinosaur. It is 2012 read a book all that we see points to a Creator. What a waste of a life for a foolish clay pot wanting to argue the potter does not exist just to have an excuse for your selfish sinful ways. You write these things only to prepare your court case when you are brought before God.

[@ManofChrist101]

1) You did not go into my house so the text doesnt apply. I am a Christian so your witness doesnt apply to me as though i were a non-believer 2) Mind your ego again i say! You are not the standard Bearer of truth, JESUS IS. So just because i defy you doesnt mean i defy God or His Truth. You are not God

[@bluefish704]

This guy is making a fool of himself. "Πρωτότοκος" means first-born. (Πρώτος=First + Τίκτω=I give birth). Psalm 89:27 is prophecy about Jesus. It doesn't even mention Jesse. He clearly reads "Pre-eminence" between the lines. How about Colossians 1:18? In what sense is Πρωτότοκος used there? But let's say it means pre-eminent. He is the pre-eminent of all creation. Wait, the pre-eminent of what?!

[@ManofChrist101]

You have a messiah complex............Jesus is my God. NOT YOU. Goodbye

[@Justice4vr]

Its about receiving the gospel! Hello! Youre not a Christian, sorry to say. A trur Christian follows the teachings of Christ which all of christendom does not.. Keep on celebrating them pagan holidays, yes say hi to santa clause for me. Yes keep killing them other "christians" from the other side during war, love thy enemy? I dont see it. Jesus commissioned us to preach and you do not receive me so I dust off my feet. The text applies to anyone not receiving the gospel in any location.

[@LetReasonPrevail1]

This is where I just sit back and laugh my ass off while I watch the thousand different camps of believers all confidently quote a passage of scripture in defense of their brand of theology. The only thing this proves is that the bible is at best hopelessly inconsistent & at worst utterly incoherent. The good news: No matter what your view is on ANY subject, you can find a bible passage that will show your's is the correct view! Isn't that awesome?!?!