2 Stroke Engine Oils vs Needed Ignition Timing

[@Iggy900ss]

That's a lot of information! Thank you Michael for sharing your researchs!

[@MrAlfista90]

Really really interesting. I drive a Vespa with a DR 177 engine. Previously I used the Ipone Samurai Racing oil. After the bottle was empty, I started using Motul 710. In fact I had to turn the ignition back to get decent combustion. Thank you for the great information.

[@MichaelForrestChnl]

that was very observant of you to notice the power difference and then think of trying different timing

[@MrAlfista90]

@@MichaelForrestChnl The first thing I noticed was the spark plug appearance, it changed when I changed the oil. Maybe with a more similar oil this wouldn't be noticeable. Since I meticulously record the carburettor jetting, ignition timing, heat value of the candle and the candle images, I noticed this. With an old 75cc Piaggio Ciao racing engine, I was able to notice again and again how the candle image changed as the oil changed. Since I was working with a static ignition there, I didn't even think about adjusting the ignition. I just thought the different oil changed the color of the candle ;-) However, rpm and also the top end power changed. Now it seems that your tests confirm my suspicions about the oil.

[@MichaelForrestChnl]

correct except that different oils do leave different color deposits on the plug

[@MichaelForrestChnl]

Subsequent testing is showing that this timing difference with different types engine oils is mostly only observable in really high load situations. I need to make another video or webpage putting this information into correct perspective.

[@MichaelForrestChnl]

2nd Power Test This time the fuel/oil ratios were both 40/1, the cylinder (new with slightly different porting) and compression ratio and jetting were a little different and there was no difference in power between "fast burn" castor oil (BeNOL) and "slow burn" synthetic (IPONE) when both timings were adjusted for best power. There was about 10 degrees timing difference between the two. The main take-away from this study still remains that timing has to match the engine oil for best power because of the effects of engine oil on combustion burn rate. But if the stator coil plate doesn't allow much adjustment or you just don't want to mess with it then you need to try fast burn and slow burn oils and choose the one that gives the best power.

[@MichaelForrestChnl]

3rd Power Test With a main jet slightly on the rich side I compared IPONE Samourai synthetic to Castor 927 and IPONE gave 100 RPM more when the timing was adjusted for each oil (6 degrees different). that's only a 1.5% boost but I think that is enough for a racer seeking every power advantage. Next I want to retest with the next size smaller jet. Maybe power effects with oils are jetting dependent.

[@jmrides777]

Great vid bud. You have very interesting and indepth knowledge. I'm still learning. I'm into kit bikes such as yours. But of course I need to push mine to the limit and see how far I push these motors. You'll notice on my channel I have ran into soft seizures with the iron Minarelli cylinder, and pushed a crank bearing to explode with an 70cc Athena Minarelli build. I do all of my port work. Currently, I'm using Red Line Synthetic it's on the expensive side but I need the "best" as the builds are getting more expensive as I advance in this hobby. I will buy the best. I use 91 Octane with Red line 32:1 ratio and so far it been good. My winter build is a Malossi Hyper Race 70cc (racing cylinder) the one with the exhaust bridge port with a Smolik Performance CNC bottom end. I'll be using a 50cc KTM ignition. I'm new to this type of ignition. And I'll have to set the timing on this build which I'm new to as well. So trying to learn as much as I can. It's an awesome hobby.

[@MichaelForrestChnl]

Both Redline products have a lot of group 1 mineral oil which has such a low flash point (the mineral oils FP) that it immediately evaporates off the upper cylinder, leaving whatever little synthetic is in it to try to protect the cylinder/rings. Red Line Two Stroke Racing Oil has around 40% group 1 and 30% synthetic oil. and so much viscosity modifier is added to it that it becomes abrasive. No, RedLine is to be avoided at all cost. Go to www.dragonfly75.com/moto/oilpower4.html and see the mineral oils w/o group 1 and the fully synthetic oils and choose one if your engine revs less than 8000. If it revs over 10K then use an oil with castor oil in it or a semi-synthetic oil containing group 1. For your engine builds make sure you are using the correct piston rings. They are either made soft to match a chrome (nikasil, etc) lined cylinder, or hard to match an iron lined cylinder. If you break this rule then the engine will fail quickly. I made that mistake on my KDX200 and had to resleeve it twice a year due to the hard rings wearing down the liner. Without anyone here to professionally balance my crank I dare not port it to rev past 8K. I've got the balance holes correctly sized but it vibrates a little side to side because I don't have the tools to correct that wobble.

[@jmrides777]

@@MichaelForrestChnl Hey thanks. I'll check the web site soon and get back to ya.

[@jmrides777]

@@MichaelForrestChnl Hey Mike, I'm going to buy your calculator today. I have three types of engines all 70cc range. One Malossi Hyper Race(Race cylinder), Two Athena Minarelli Race/Sport cylinder, Three Iron Minarelli cylinder. So I'll buy 3 different calculators maybe four for a china doll cylinder.

[@MichaelForrestChnl]

cool. It's better to use calculators than to guess at a starting point: dragonfly75.com/moto/calculators.html

[@MichaelForrestChnl]

My motorized bicycle forum: facebook.com/groups/473290233690272

[@MichaelForrestChnl]

my Q&A with deepAI: Q - Can different types of engine oil, added to the fuel in a 2 stroke engine, cause different rates of combustion? A - Yes, the combustion characteristics of a two-stroke engine can be influenced by the properties of the two-stroke oil used in the fuel mixture. Different types of two-stroke oils have varying combustion properties, such as their flash point, lubrication capabilities, and additive packages. High-quality two-stroke oils with the right properties can help ensure smooth combustion and proper lubrication, which can lead to efficient and effective combustion in the engine. Using the wrong type of oil or low-quality oil can potentially affect the combustion process, leading to incomplete combustion, increased deposits, and potentially affecting the combustion rate and engine performance.

[@MichaelForrestChnl]

QUESTIONS & ANSWERS Q- Why hasn't this already been known? A- I don't know but consider the fact that neither is it known by tests how much different the fuel/synthetic-oil ratio has to be from the ratio when using a mineral oil. All the old tests with ratios were only done with mineral oils. Q- Can this be trusted since it wasn't done on a dyno? A- A dyno test would be best but an uphill RPM test is also valid because less power means less RPM (as long as the incline is enough to keep the engine from reaching its top RPM). Q- Why haven't the engine oil manufacturers mentioned this? A- Either they didn't know or because they're main focus is just sales then they didn't see any advantage sales-wise to fully informing the public. Keep in mind that most of these businesses are guilty of calling one or more of their products "fully synthetic" when according to their Safety Data Sheets they also contain mineral oil. And none of them have ever given us a reliable method for determining the best fuel/oil ratio (which would have to be based on type engine cooling, type engine use, top RPM, type fuel used, engine compression, and viscosity of oil in question at the calculated engine temp). I had to step up and fill in the gap with my calculator (www.dragonfly75.com/moto/oil2.html ) Q- Why haven't any of the race teams mentioned this? a- Ha! They are the last possible source of such info because they would consider that info Top Secret to maintain a hidden race advantage. Also keep in mind that high tech racers do test for best ignition timing, but they haven't known to retest if they switch to a different type oil, but usually they stick to the same engine oil. It's the play riders who are most prone to switch oils.

[@iKenFlyPPG]

A CA50 of 8-12° has the best efficiency usually. CA50 means the crank angle where you reach 50% burn. Measuring CA50 is derived using cylinder pressure vs. crank angle inputs put through data processing. Costs a gazillion dollars to measure this and a ton more characteristics, ask AVL for a quote, will be fun to see the number you get. A very good, somewhat achievable measurement is BSFC, brake specific fuel consumption. Fuel flow and torque is all you need to measure changes in efficiency including timing optimization. Holding a torque at a certain baro and iat, fuel flow is fuel consumption, less flow for same torque is more efficiency. I guess this really applies to fuel saving, mpg improving snakes out there and along with the HHO hydrogen generator / novelty sellers. These actors dont show you the BSFC numbers and comparisons. BSFC is basically a law of physics, being a "based" unit of measure for fuel economy. All OEMs use BSFC to validate their engines, its a relatively easy and affordable measurement. BSFC is to fuel and torque, as Power is to volts and amps.

[@MichaelForrestChnl]

It sounds like you prefer any other means of measurement other than my RPM passing an uphill marker. More power = more speed. For a poor 2 stroke enthusiast this is an adequate test. It clearly shows the needed timing change for each type oil. If you want it more precise and more costly then you are very free to have a go at it.

[@iKenFlyPPG]

​@@MichaelForrestChnl Spoken like a true racer, because the finish line is the only test that proves something is the better.

[@ronaldmachesky7177]

Im redoing my yamaha banshee right now. I flat track race, and i thought the jetting was close, but tear down revealed worn rings and black spot under pidtons. I was using non ethanol 90 with 32:1 klotz r50 +4 timing. I was thinking of switching to castor 927 at 28:1 and increasing timing to +7 for more low-end power. Also, I am raising the needle one position and going two sizes up on the main jet.

[@MichaelForrestChnl]

when you switch from the fully synthetic Klotz to synthetic/castor 927 that automatically means timing will be too advanced, which in your case you want for more low end power. So just try it as-is with 927 and then play with the timing. It might be fine w/o changing timing.

[@ronaldmachesky7177]

@MichaelForrestChnl do you think there would be any benefit to running more oil say 20:1, since 927 is mostly castor based? This go around. I'm going to inspect the top of the pistons for correct wash area to help dial in jetting. Can the increase of head temps from more timing be controlled by more fuel via larger jets ?

[@MichaelForrestChnl]

there's no benefit in adding twice as much oil as is needed. Castor protects even better than synthetic and it dont leave much deposits unless the jetting is too lean. "Correct wash" is secondary to jetting it for max power and clean running all thru the throttle range. More fuel does lower head temp which is why racers should use the biggest main jet that still allows clean running.

[@peterolson8350]

How much does viscosity play a role (seals better between piston and cylinder?)? Castor oil is usually thicker than synthetic and mineral oil.

[@MichaelForrestChnl]

I don't think that's a factor when comparing castor oil to petroleum based oil. Castor can also be used very sparingly like synthetic but it's on the opposite scale of synthetic on my graphs. There's something special about it that makes it a "fast burn" oil.

[@FightFilms]

Which oil commonly available in Ecuador would you say is best?

[@MichaelForrestChnl]

Amalie SynPlus and Castrol Go! are both group 2 oils which are good for almost everything. For any high heat engine there's a place in Cuenca that sells 100% synthetic IPONE Samourai.

[@FightFilms]

I saw IPone in Loja. Expensive. Have you heard of GP Endurox? I did a burn test and it took more heating to ignite and burned slower and lower than Castrol. Would that mean it’s better or is that test alone inconclusive?

[@calesmiley2988]

What's your thoughts on fuel burn rates, IE octane, and ethanol percentage and matching oil burn rates for target performance? I am still learning so much, but I think my theory of high octane to retard ignition timing for Nitrous was a brain fart at best. Lol All while using Klotz Super at 32:1

[@MichaelForrestChnl]

everyone should try out different timing settings for whatever fuel and oil they are using and also make sure to try both fast and slow burn oils.

[@MichaelForrestChnl]

Here's my latest page with additional information on timing curves and types of engine oil: dragonfly75.com/moto/oilpower5.html

[@rhysmarshall6365]

Has any one told you before that you are dreaming

[@MichaelForrestChnl]

Yes this is dreamland, discovering something so basic that everyone else over-looked. But If you don't believe me then test it yourself. Get an adjustable CDI and use different oils and adjust it to find the best power timing for each one going uphill. Then come back here and apologize. ;-)