200 gr Soft Cast NOE HP 38 SPL Ballistic Gel Test

Additional Details:
BHN = 8.7bhn
Alloy Used: 50/50 stained glass window scrap/soft lead sheeting scrap
Powder Coat = PowderBuyThePound "Glass Clear"

[@certaindeaf8315]

The FBI just went back to the model-13 because of this video. ❤ Lol

[@FullLeadTaco]

😂 lol

[@AlphaRomeoOneFive]

The ones out of the lever action looked fantastic 👍 great video, I love watching subsonic loads and seeing how they do

[@FullLeadTaco]

Thanks 👍

[@unclejohn1053]

I could watch the gel blocks in slow motion all day. Cool test. I still love that suppressed lever.

[@FullLeadTaco]

yeah, that one is a fun one for sure!

[@georgiaboy4410]

Good stuff Taco. The alloy/velocity was perfect in the carbine👍🏻

[@FullLeadTaco]

thanks GB, it sure was

[@andrewclark2463]

Great work as usual taco! You sold me on the mold on the prior video!! It should get here next week & I can't be more excited. Thanks for the good work!! I'll be shooting in a Henry model x suppressed

[@FullLeadTaco]

that's going to be a nice light shooter suppressed!

[@lawrencehudson9939]

Great that you gave lead hardness info, very important. In cast bullets there are always tradeoffs alloy hardness and velocity play important parts. I suspect in a handgun you may see better expansion and penetration with a lighter bullet. I suggest something like Lyman's Ray Thompson designed 358156 in a hollow point. I think you can get a NOE mold in that configuration. The Lyman Mold is a gas check design but it has been produced by other mold makers as a plain or bevel base design (H&G #156). I feel the 150 grain weight is the sweet spot for expansion and penetration.

[@PatRMG]

Enjoyed this one.

[@FullLeadTaco]

Thanks man, I appreciate it

[@jfowler7604]

So....a heavy for caliber .38 cal cast lead bullet does not expand much at ~~630 fps but does better at 750fps and more yet at 900+fps. This is a unique revelation! Thanks for the video.

[@FullLeadTaco]

Glad to help

[@Hickamfield]

great job Mike

[@FullLeadTaco]

Thanks man, I appreciate it!

[@ohshoot444]

Great video as always! The editing is fantastic. Edit: would love to see how it groups out of the rifle at like 25 yards. That looks like an awesome small game load, if you could pull off head shots.

[@FullLeadTaco]

yeah, it is a hoot to shoot. Free standing, we were hitting targets out to 75 yards without issue

[@garyK.45ACP]

You "rediscovered" what the British found in 1922. .38 caliber, 200 gr. bullets, when fired from a handgun, will tumble on impact (very obvious in your slow-mo segments) increasing the severity of the wound without expanding. They considered this perfect for military rounds which were not allowed to have "hollow point" bullets. (some more recent interpretations of the agreements have changed that) The .38/200 was their issued handgun load from 1922-1963. Their load was based on the .38 S&W cartridge, but performance was identical to what you are getting with the .38 Special. This was also marketed in the USA with a round nose bullet as the ".38 Special Super Police" load. FWIW, Buffalo Bore soft lead 158 gr. SWC-HP .38 +P ammo will give similar performance from a J-frame S&W that you received with the lever action and these bullets. They are my choice for carry rounds in my .38 Special revolvers. Their velocity from my Model 642 runs just under 1000 fps. They are not pleasant to shoot in a J-frame but give great expansion.

[@Gieszkanne]

@captain crankypants Maybe not so good choice for a military handgun caliber but very good for self defense. But also depends on the situation. 9mm fmj has a very bad reputation for stopping an attacker quick. There are a lot of reports where they empty a whole mag from a mp into someone without stopping him. Same will be true for the 7.62x25. There you have a bigger chance with a tumbling 200gr bullet.

[@heavyleadenthuasist38]

Excellent presentation you covered many aspects on this. Unique seems to play well with lead bullets in my experience.

[@FullLeadTaco]

yeah, not the best metering powder, but sure seems to shoot alright

[@heavyleadenthuasist38]

@@FullLeadTaco if you want something new to try I really like 6.5 gr of unique in a 357 mag case with a 158 gr semi wadcutter. It pushes about 1050-1100 FPS. Excellent load it’s perfect for not too much recoil and just enough power to make you happy.

[@FullLeadTaco]

Yeah, I really like the 158's, probably my favorite "normal" bullet weight in the 357 mag. I have a few different molds in the 158gr range and I've had good luck in the past with about 6 gr... How hard are you casting the 6.5gr load bullets?

[@heavyleadenthuasist38]

@@FullLeadTaco I actually am using commercial cast bullets about 15-16 Brinell. I just got into it a month ago and casted my first batch of lee 158 gr RF and they are about 11 bhn. I’m gonna test them in the .38 special.

[@ruststar]

Long needle nose players work great to get the bullets out of gel blocks without ripping it apart. Good test buddy, I am baffled you do not have more subs Cheers

[@FullLeadTaco]

Thanks Rustar! I always appreciate you tuning in!

[@livincincy4498]

Faster powder for the handguns would be the next test. Loading for 38+P might be the magic to get reliable expansion. The Rifle load was pretty awesome. Looks like a hunting round for sure.

[@FullLeadTaco]

yeah, definitely going to make that normal load for that levergun

[@ocean374]

Great test thanks for sharing

[@FullLeadTaco]

Thanks for watching!

[@philp411]

That was fun. I liked it 👍

[@FullLeadTaco]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@johnmorgan2099]

Awesome. Keep up the good fight brother

[@FullLeadTaco]

Thanks man

[@Matersoup]

I will say your alloy seems perfect in my estimation.

[@FullLeadTaco]

yeah, this load in the levergun is awesome... whole family loves to shoot it (quiet and destroys the jugs)

[@danielgodismyjudge]

Nice... hay tell your buddies to get some 9mm powder coat hollow point molds made!!!! I got the 9mm solid points a rocking and 30 cal for the Blackout just about tuned in!

[@FullLeadTaco]

which ones are you looking at? how heavy?

[@danielgodismyjudge]

@@FullLeadTaco HTC356-135-RF-AH2 (12) or TL357-135-RF-AU5 (17) in hollow point. I just got back from my local gun shop... 100 primers are now 10 bucks. This is crazy...I'm glad I had previously stocked up.

[@Jerry-dk8se]

I have to be careful when I shoot a load in both my 6" GP100 and the Henry Big Boy X with 17" barrel. What works for penetration and expansion doesn't work in the other. Your analysis is on target 👍

[@FullLeadTaco]

thanks jerry

[@henriknielsen9674]

If you cut the inside of the hole in the bullet, so the edges are thinned a bit, maybe that'll help get the expansion going when shooting with the snub

[@FullLeadTaco]

yeah, that might work, but doing it concentric and consistent might be difficult

[@WilliamCChapin]

You’re right Taco, the Scandium J frames have an odd, springy feel that is sometimes unpleasant. Even the 342 AirLite Ti Scandium frame 38 Special that I like so much has that characteristic. A stout +P from it is totally different than the same round fired in the 638 Airweight that I also like a lot.

[@IWatchedWhat]

You should have shot Taurus Ti framed 41mag.... I ended up selling mine because it hurt so much. Then we started the 41 special stuff and I wish I could find another one.

[@WilliamCChapin]

@@IWatchedWhat I'd like to try something like that. I haven't looked into Taurus revolvers.

[@FullLeadTaco]

I've not really done much with taurus revolvers other than the Judge that I bought when they first came out. The Judge I had fell apart at the range, and I had a really disappointing customer service experience--so I sold that revolver and said I probably wouldn't buy another taurus revolver after that. On the other hand, I have had incredible service from S&W and Ruger...

[@WilliamCChapin]

@@FullLeadTaco I’ll take that under advisement, Taco!

[@jonnporter6081]

Try using a small pic to score the inside of the cavity walls. See if that makes the projectile expand coming from the snub nose. The number of grooves scored should determine the number of petals on the bullet.

[@FullLeadTaco]

I may try that in the future, but for now, I think I've found my new favorite subsonic load for my Marlin CST levergun suppressed.

[@inglwud5625]

Great video! I read where if you wanted to have expanding lead bullets, put them in a pan of water to half the length and use a torch to heat the tip of the bullet. When you start to see a change in the color then tip them over to cool. Makes tips softer I guess.

[@FullLeadTaco]

that works with brass but not with lead. If you water drop the lead when hot, it will make it harder not softer.

[@inglwud5625]

@@FullLeadTaco not water quenching- put your bullets in a pan of water with the tip out and heat the tip with a torch when it changes color knock it over.i read it on cast boolits website on nose softening lead bullets.

[@FullLeadTaco]

I would think that knocking it over would quench it. I can see how if you didn't knock them over it would keep the tip soft and the base hard, but tipping it while it is hot seems like it would quench

[@inglwud5625]

@@FullLeadTaco your right i re-read the thread and it doesn't say tip them over just leave them i guess.

[@FullLeadTaco]

People anneal brass and tip them over because brass doesn't get harder when quenched like that

[@artfulalias3984]

Does the inconsistent penetration correlate with tumbling? A long, slow, butt heavy bullet has a lot of potential to tumble. Early tumble with such a long bullet would dump energy right away, and probably cut a wide wound at the point of tumble.

[@FullLeadTaco]

Not totally sure--wish I had a real high speed camera

[@GunFunZS]

Thanks for putting the BHN in the description. Did you anneal the whole batch at once? I have found that to get more consistent hardness from bullet to bullet, than dropping from the mold to a towel or to a bucket. It seems to me that your friend with the snubbie who wants to do this as a carry load would find the small amount of trouble for greater uniformity to be worthwhile.

[@FullLeadTaco]

yeah, I can't really recommend this load for defensive purposes, but maybe for animals when you'd want a bit more penetration? not sure though. I didn't anneal the bullets, just didn't water drop them. Although the powder coated bullets were softened by the oven and not water dropped.

[@GunFunZS]

@@FullLeadTaco It seems like pushing him with just a little bit more charge weight and possibly a softer binary alloy would probably get him there. but you wouldn't really know until you do that work to gel test it. I think it's a pretty cool bullet either way.

[@erichansen3641]

Smith & Wesson model 10-5 sub nose revolver with 6 rounds of Federal 158 grain Lead Round Nose LRN, or Federal Premium 158 grain +P Nyclad(tm) nylon coated soft lead SWC-HP. Why would anyone use a metal jacketed bullet out of a revolver or pistol?

[@wadekirby8575]

You could also prefill the HP to see if/how that effects expansion from the shorter barrels. Or shoot a row of water jugs. I'm thinking perhaps the gel is not acting liquid enough at low velocity to expand the bullets.

[@FullLeadTaco]

yeah, I wonder if that would help it expand at the lower velocities

[@MrBirdman123]

those in the rifle are great self defense rounds

[@FullLeadTaco]

yeah, a nice pretty mushroom

[@greywuuf]

Your low penetration numbers are actually reflecting back from the interface of the two blocks

[@jamespollard1670]

I wonder if the snubbie would do better with a lighter weight and faster HP for expansion ?

[@FullLeadTaco]

probably, as velocity always seems to win when it comes to hollow points... but I think the original bullet design was to get some penetration and some expansion...

[@TucsonDonAz]

I've been a Lee mold user for a long time but I may look into that HP NOE mold. I haven't tried powder coat yet.

[@FullLeadTaco]

powder coating is a pretty simple process that seems to work well

[@TucsonDonAz]

@@FullLeadTaco Do you think my wife would wonder "what's up" when I bring her a new toaster oven?

[@FullLeadTaco]

@@TucsonDonAz lol just don't mix bullet stuff and food

[@TucsonDonAz]

What's your range on the 1894 CST; with iron sights? Id be happy with 50 yds. I've been looking for a 357 lever for about nine months and would definitely load those heavy bullets. The Marlins (1894 Dark too) are out of my budget and the Henry Big Boy X still ++MSRP. Where's the hammer on your S&W scamdium (sic)? I have the Model 360 scandium and love it. OUCH!!

[@FullLeadTaco]

easily hit the 50 yard targets at 50 yards... it is super fun to shoot those loads with the suppressor. The hammer is underneath... no exposed hammer.

[@jamesowens2781]

Hey Taco I would happily accept any of your discarded molds lol. This spring coming through Utah to visit NOE and friends along the way.

[@FullLeadTaco]

lol, let me know when you're passing through

[@mkshffr4936]

I wonder how the classic 200gr LRN Super Police load would perform in a rifle.

[@FullLeadTaco]

Yeah that would be interesting

[@artfulalias3984]

That would make a fun gel test. I predict the higher velocity would delay tumbling. It would probably look like the inconsistent snubbie results with a LOT of over penetration happening before the tumble.

[@bretwalton4348]

I recently loaded some 180 gr cast coated in 38 with 4.3 gr unique for my suppressed Henry. After doing so I realized that this is likely over 38 +p pressure. I don't have a 38 or share loaded ammo, but there is a chance it could somehow end up in one. Did you calculate the pressure of this load compared to standard 38 or 38+p? Obviously it is safe for 357.

[@FullLeadTaco]

I did not have a pressure calculator--not even sure these will fit into a 38

[@bepropheta6665]

I bought my wife an S&W 38 special and was looking for load data specifically for the short barrel. Somebody has a load manual with that data because I looked at it at the gun shop and went with Alliant Power Pistol but I think it was a 135gr bullet, not in the 200gr range. For the life of me I can’t remember what manual it was. It’s a Speer bullet and maybe a Speer manual but I’m looking now online but can’t find anything on it. I’ll keep looking... Great video and comparison btw. Quick and to the point but thorough enough to actual prove something out.

[@bepropheta6665]

It is the Speer #14 manual that loaddata.com is taking it from but won’t show it unless you have a subscription to their site. Wtg to them for selling somebody else’s data...

[@FullLeadTaco]

thanks, I appreciate the comments!

[@tires2burn]

Google Speer Load Data, then 38 spl 135gr short barrel.

[@rickterrance4981]

How fast were you pushing the ones that were shot from your lever gun?

[@FullLeadTaco]

963fps, but it's the same load (just goes faster in the longer barrel)

[@nickjm37fordel1]

Have never used the Gel or even seen it in person, only in videos. I did price it once, it seems to be a little pricey ! But, maybe that's relative.

[@FullLeadTaco]

yeah, the gel costs a bunch

[@craigwh1000]

Great video ... what BHN for soft (8.6 ie., stick on ww)? Is that too saint for siting in a 38 SPL? I’m looking to reload some 148 Wad Cutters and would like to know what’s feasible for BHN .... only fir paper targets. Any assistance you can provide is greatly appreciated. Thanks, CWH

[@FullLeadTaco]

Can you rephrase your question? Are you asking how soft of lead you can use for the 38 special?

[@craigwh1000]

Yes

[@FullLeadTaco]

@@craigwh1000 I'd think that stick on WW would be good enough for some wad cutter paper punching/plinking. Are you going to use traditional lube or powder coat? Powder coating seems like it gives a little more wiggle room.

[@craigwh1000]

Plan to use stick on ww and powder coating for paper punching. I’ll check my barrel often to see if I’m getting lead build up. For my glock 17, I was going to use clip on ww and add some Linotype. Is adding Linotype to the clip on ww overkill just to shot paper targets at the indoor range? I plan to quench after both molds. Thoughts? Thanks

[@FullLeadTaco]

@@craigwh1000 yeah both of those should work fine. You shouldn't get any leading as long as your bullets are sized properly.

[@benrollin1207]

I wish they loaded 200 grain factory loads I would buy them

[@FullLeadTaco]

yeah, I wish these exact loads were available commercially--they are so fun

[@johnparrish9215]

Hello Taco, What was the bullet alloy you were using???

[@FullLeadTaco]

50/50 stained glass window scrap, and soft lead sheeting

[@FullLeadTaco]

I believe I mentioned the alloy in the previous video where I made the ammo, but yeah... Cool mushrooms in the levergun

[@thereindeertherabbitthebat592]

Wow!!! Mushrooms of death!!! 🌼💀 AHHH!!!

[@FullLeadTaco]

yeah, they turned out awesome

[@csrindustries]

what gel are you using?

[@FullLeadTaco]

Clear Ballistics branded ballistics gel, been remelted a few times

[@oovotzify]

Dig your podcast.

[@FullLeadTaco]

thanks

[@scubaguy007]

I’m not sure how this applies, but I was once told that if you want expansion you need to hit over 850 fps. Have you ever heard this?

[@GunFunZS]

That's wrong thinking. It's too broad, whereas the information needs to be specific for the statement to be true. Expansion with what bullet? In what medium? Deer/ bear/ human? You will get more expansion in the denser critter. Is that muzzle velocity? Because the issue is actually impact velocity. Hunting bullets may not print it on the box, but you can email the manufacturers and they will tell you the impact velocity which gives sufficient expansion and penetration for a particular application. For cast bullets, using the same mold, changing the alloy will change your answer. Or keeping the alloy the same and changing the heat treat.

[@scubaguy007]

@@GunFunZS well I can tell you it’s supposed to be broad. In my experiences, reloading only with factory manufactured projectiles it has seemed to be true. I’m not into casting, and I’m sure I know very little compared to anyone who is. With that said, it may not stand the test of time, but is it just coincidence that it works?

[@GunFunZS]

@@scubaguy007 I think so. The thing is there is sort of an easily attained velocity for any cartridge type out of the common gun for it. Anybody who makes a bullet for that particular cartridge and gun is going to make their expanding bullet work at the natural velocity. For 38 special that's about 850. It's my guess is that it isn't so much the 850 is the magic number as that you were loading a bunch of different bullets that were all designed around cartridges that naturally tended to want to go 850 with that bullet weight. If you were looking at both designed around a significantly faster cartridge you would have found the magic number was a higher number.

[@GunFunZS]

For example I happen to know that Hornady makes two visually identical bullets that are 125 grains and 358 in diameter. One is designed for 38 special velocities and the other for 357 mag. They are designed to open at somewhere around 8:50 and somewhere around 1,200 ft per second respectively.

[@scubaguy007]

@@GunFunZS well I’m loading the basic pistol stuff. .38spl, .44spl/mag, .357mag, 9mm and 45ACP. And right now, right now I have a ton of primers and can’t find any good projectiles. Lots of people say they want to trade, the problem is they’re treating me junk bullets. I text taco today to ask him about a video he might have that would help me get started casting. It’s a crazy world right now, So I might need to learn now rather than wait till later.

[@IWatchedWhat]

I wish Al would do something like this for the 41mag.....

[@WilliamCChapin]

I ordered a 41 Magnum mold from NOE yesterday, the H&G 258 clone. I was surprised there were hollow point variants of a few 41 molds listed.

[@IWatchedWhat]

@@WilliamCChapin I have several of Al's molds, but I want a hollow point like that 38 one. It would be great in a 41 special I think.

[@FullLeadTaco]

just gotta draw it up!

[@IWatchedWhat]

@@FullLeadTaco if I could draw. I couldn't draw a straight line with a ruler!

[@FullLeadTaco]

@@IWatchedWhat doesn't have to be to scale, just some basic measurements of what you want the bullet to look like.

[@zebradun7407]

Expansion is good but, a 200 gr. lead hollow point will still make a perp have a bad day even if it doen't expand LOL

[@FullLeadTaco]

Very true

[@Gieszkanne]

He has a consistent velocitys with a 213gr load and both out of a 4 inch and 2 inch revolver. Is not hp but the good thing is that they all tumble in gel. kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y4jVoImjp8RkbNU

[@nativejuicevapors]

What was the BHN on these my taco bro

[@FullLeadTaco]

About 8.7ish bhn

[@davep1445]

Hi Taco!

[@FullLeadTaco]

Howdy

[@feuerfrei7070]

Any news on the giveaway?

[@FullLeadTaco]

I think we are going to pick the winners for the podcast giveaway drawings a week from today.

[@marcobarretto7336]

321 Bye Felicia!!!

[@FullLeadTaco]

:)

[@JOHNWICK-hn3ng]

Hi Taco

[@FullLeadTaco]

Howdy!

[@lestergillis8171]

633 fps? I have a Benjamin .20 caliber air rifle that shoots a bit faster than that.

[@FullLeadTaco]

Your Benjamin .20 does NOT shoot 200gr bullets @ 633fps

[@DarthCody700]

At 600 fps you might as well be using 38/200

[@FullLeadTaco]

in the levergun is where this load really shines. I've cast and loaded another 1k of them for the levergun suppressed. Everyone loves shooting them, especially at the jugs

[@robaldridge6505]

you're not going to get expansion out of a 200 grain .38 @ - 1000 fps, but that's OK, you don't need it, watch the snubby shots as the bullet stops going forward, look at how they flop around like a fish out of water... that's what a 200 grain .38 does.. look at the old 38 - 200 Super Police load...

[@FullLeadTaco]

they do expand quite wonderfully when shot in the levergun at under 1000fps kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZpKbg4moqppnhaM

[@robaldridge6505]

@@FullLeadTaco but not out of a snubbie, for whatever reason you want to go with I've always had trouble getting bullets to expand out of my stubbie J frames ( I go with the 'unstable long for bore' camp) so years ago I went with my Dad told me, he carried a Victory model S&W in WW2 and it never failed him with the 200 grainers

[@boozeandbullets2084]

gel is so expensive

[@FullLeadTaco]

Yes it is. Pretty cool stuff for catching bullets though

[@glennsammon4465]

I really hate when they say scandium frame. it is aluminum alloy frame. and one of the alloys is scandium.

[@FullLeadTaco]

meh, just a name to distinguish... would you prefer that they call both of them aluminum? Pretty much every metal is an alloy of some sort.

[@glennsammon4465]

@@FullLeadTaco that is true.

[@timrobinson6573]

Really? 3,2,1 before every shot. At least it wasn't annoying.

[@FullLeadTaco]

When you have a slow motion camera that only records 2-4 seconds at a time when recording at high frame rates, you have to make sure to time it right--hence the 3-2-1

[@lestergillis8171]

I see no point in any revolver with such a short barrel.

[@FullLeadTaco]

Pocket gun