2024 Berlin Marathon Super Shoe Observations

[@TimGrose]

I think it is increasingly difficult for companies to produce a shoe that both works optimally for their elite pros but also one mid pack marathoners will want to buy and indeed wear as ultimately that is the "point". In that sense the "elite only" (effectively) Evo 1 seems the way forward but only if they can produce "lesser" shoes like the Pro 4 and make us "feel like a pro" even if the Pros may not want to use them now. That's also tricky as I feel we like to think it is a level playing field (well sort of) and I can use whatever the best can if I want to. I guess Saucony sort of have done this with the Elite and Pro but really there aren't too many true world elite Saucony marathoners so does not get the same attention. On the KZbinrs, it looked me as if both Nick Bester and Meagan from BITR used the Evo 1 in the end with mixed results - PB and calf issues (shoe related or not hard to say). Kofuzi appeared to be using the Pro 4 but I noted Matt B was not given his "TTS" so ended up doing in the Pro 3. So really amongst "ordinary" athletes really very little to go on with the Pro 4 despite the best intentions of all the "hype".

[@OdanUrr87]

I wonder if the fact that some elites are still using older Nike running shoes has more to do with a "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality, or perhaps it's because newer models like the VF3 may have also been tailored to appeal to non-elite runners, thereby losing some of that edge elites are looking for when smashing world records (maybe both?). Should there be a line or variant of a running shoe, like the Evo 1, that will only appeal to elite runners, and then take that tech and apply it to a more mainstream (and budget-conscious) running shoe like the Evo SL? Chris made a video a few months ago suggesting Nike could be releasing tiered racing shoes based off a possible Alphafly 3 Elite and evolutions like the Vaporfly Elite.

[@TimGrose]

@@OdanUrr87 yeah could be. Personally I still opt for the VF1 and that is 5 years old now. I have narrow, long feet and many ones now (like the AF3) are just too much shoe for me. I do also wonder whether some of the so called elites we see only have "loose" if any actual pro contracts. I mean I had not really heard of most of the leading runners in Berlin yesterday and I like to think I follow the sport a lot more than most! As such would such athletes just use what they have (bit like us) and a VF2 is not suddenly a "slow" shoe just because the rivals have lots of offerings for all of us.

[@jamesrose4345]

Supershoes have become less aggressive and more stable/cushioned recently? I wouldn’t even do a parkrun in my VF3 (decent for training though), I like you and AndyFOD still have pairs of VF1/2 for racing, and it’s heartening to see guys with lots more shoes/choices still opting for them too!

[@TimGrose]

@@jamesrose4345 I would not do a muddy parkrun in my VF3 for sure :) Joking aside, I did run my fastest 5K in them in now the last 2 years but equally almost my slowest ever 10K - think however that says more about me on those days than the shoes. I did find they felt better, the faster I went but think still prefer the V1 anyway. I have also bought far less super shoes in the past year or so as partly getting too expensive and partly that none of them have been better for me than the VFs.

[@trifitguy]

The shoe doesn't make you "equal" to pro marathoners...the right shoe only gives you 5% extra benefit...so your thinking is very strange indeed

[@Gabriel85Mihai]

Love the shoe talk. I was in Berlin and it was funny to see more “normal”’people running in AF3 than the professionals.

[@SagasuRunning]

Back in the day (i.e. 2019) you'd see 50%+ of the entire marathon field in Vaporflys, elites and non-elites. Now it seems you see 50% of the non-elite field in AF3s alone, and still many AF2s and AF1s. It's quite interesting.

[@bryanscully4670]

I wonder how much of Nike's struggles in getting their elites in the Vaporfly 3 has to do with their design cycle time. Nike has stuck with the yearly alternating Vaporfly/Alphafly cycle, churning out a new version every year. I could definitely see this forcing them to rush a new version to market before adequate testing has been done to see if it is actually faster. If you have large overlaps on the vf/af teams, it would be even more difficult to make a better version in such a short time. Compare this to Adidas, with the long delay between the AP3 and the AP4. When listening to the conversation with BITR on the AP4, they mentioned how they weren't able to see improvements on the AP3 until they developed the Evo. Maybe this is the way to go for development of super shoes, i.e. don't go to market until you are 100% sure your newer product is superior to your previous product. Obviously Adidas has their own issue with the Evo competing with the AP4, but it will be interesting to see if Nike delays future releases if they can't guarantee their elites will prefer a new update under a new CEO and direction. Donahoe was definitely the type who wanted to churn out new designs, whether or not they were better, as seen in his Consumer Direct Acceleration model.

[@SagasuRunning]

The AP4 story told on BITR left out a few key details. Did you see how he glazed over the AP4 that was shown at TRE22. That path was an abject failure l, heads must have rolled internally due to it. However, they found a way save it with the Evo 1, a remarkable feat for sure. I think the Adizero “when it’s ready” mantra is also new. They have been on a yearly update schedule prior to the AP4 v1 failure. Lessons learned though for all of that and they adapted. I think the minutely update path Nike is on with the VF/AF works well. The issue with the VF3 is they tuned it to much to the everyman runner. That made the sweet spot bigger for runners with non elite form…. But it took the edge off thet elites wanted. It will be interesting to see how they can maintain the versatility of the VF4 for everyman runner while making elites want to depend on it too. They found thet balance in the AF3…

[@TimGrose]

Personally for me, it seemed the changes in the VF2 and VF3 were more to increase mainstream appeal (e.g. more generous uppers and slightly softer in the V3) than making the shoes "faster" for the very fastest already. After all the VF1 and VF2 were basically the same but the mesh upper in the VF2 actually made them a bit heavier than Vaporweave. Also some runners seem to rip apart VF3 outsoles after a couple of runs. Adding more rubber to the outsole to make more "durable" may be useful to some but hardly elites who could surely just ask for another pair for their next race.

[@Boulevardfree]

Adidas has its money on the right race day portfolio concept going for an elite shoe and a mere-mortal shoe. "Cadence boosters vs stride boosters" is a false dichotomy and "elites and mortals alike" is a false unison in most other brands' line-up. Mortals need a balanced shoe (some cadence- and stride-boost) with some degree of stability and heel-strikability for late miles plus some degree of wear-resistance for value. I think AP4 delivers the mixed optimality real people need in their real lives.

[@SagasuRunning]

Well said...I cant disagree here. 👍🏻

[@thomasmueller77911]

I finished in 5 hours. There were a lot of nimbus around me. ;)

[@SagasuRunning]

I didn’t see those in the photos… I did see a lot of Brooks Glycerin Maxs and Ghsot Maxs… a few Superblasts too. Congrats on your finish btw. 💪🏻

[@ryanmgkim]

totally disagree with you. berlin is probably in the top 3 of the 6 majors for me. wonderful course and amazing atmosphere.

[@SagasuRunning]

I said the course was beautiful and I know the atmosphere is great, all the world major marathons have amazing atmosphere. What I was specifically commenting on is I find races with pacers on ultra fast courses not as engaging to watch. They give super fast times, but the actual racing is rarely amazing to watch.

[@Wings_nut]

Yes. My favorite Chris shows: race observations. And Chicago is in two weeks. Woohoo.

[@SagasuRunning]

This fall is already going so fast.

[@Wings_nut]

@@SagasuRunning The fall racing season is upon us.

[@SagasuRunning]

@Wings_nut It sure is, though a little odd due to it being an Olympic year.

[@Wings_nut]

@@SagasuRunning 🏃🏃‍♀

[@markoljustina]

Aiming 03:05:00 in Chicago

[@videoforum4047]

Some might think Adidas and Nike shoes are the absolute best due to how many people top 10 positions they get in major marathons. But that’s mostly due to the fact that the best runners are just sponsored by Adidas and Nike. I’m sure the elites could perform right around at the same level even if they used Puma, Saucony or something else to an extent. Also I don’t think Adidas cares if the elites pick the new Pro 4 or the Evo 1 in races, it’s still Adidas shoe they’re wearing. The Evo 1 sits in such a niche class due to the durability and price, to a point where I think the Pro 4 will be the choice of the absolute vast majority of consumers who want a marathon racer, even if the elites wear the Evo. I don’t see Evo cannibalizing Pro 4 sales and vice versa.

[@jazzyjay4595]

If you look in the middle of the pack it is still Nike, Adidas, and ASICS at the top

[@oxey_]

It seems that for mere mortals like us it doesn't really matter anyway. There might be a second a km between the top asics and the top nike shoe which is significant, but realistically all of us can lose a pound, get a bit stronger, fitter, faster to gain that time and more right back without ever looking beyond comfort

[@SagasuRunning]

This... 💯

[@SagasuRunning]

Nike and Adidas have the biggest budgets to attract the best athletes BUT they also have the best R&D and product to keep them. Look at On, for example. They have money to burn right now due to investment. They have singed many athletes but at the real top end of global elite they only really have Hellen Obiri. That says alot, IMO about the product. Same with the brands like Anta or Li Ning and their budgets trying to get top elites. Besides Bekele, who is nearing at the end of his career and frustrated with Nike's prioritization of Kipchoge, they really haven't been that successful. It's not as simple as just having a ton of money to sponsor athletes.

[@SagasuRunning]

Well said as well! 💯

[@drexydelavega5516]

Vaporfly 1 and 2 are still the best

[@SagasuRunning]

VF1 is definitely the best looking, especially the mango colorway... but yes, both shoes are iconic. I'll pick the VF3 though for training/racing though.

[@therapygrind]

Super Shoes are only great IF you have the BMI and talent (strength & skill) for whom they're designed and can wear them as designed for 26.2 . That's not a lot of people. It's marketing that persuades middle of the pack runners to wear them - when in reality they would have better times in less fatiguing shoes with more support for their BMI & heel strike.

[@SagasuRunning]

Returns are relative for plated shoes. Anyone can benefit from them, but it is a sliding scale. I do agree that most runners, focusing on refining their form and BMI has more gains…

[@olgi2068]

"when in reality they would have better times in less fatiguing shoes with more support for their BMI & heel strike." 1. Do you have any data in support of that claim regarding the athletes having better times? 2. What exactly do you mean with the part of "with more support for their BMI & heel strike"? and heel strike would definitely not apply to a substantial proportion of racers that participate in Berlin Marathon. They would be rather the exception.

[@AgileAEO]

@@olgi2068 “In a study that evaluated runners using shoes with differing sole stiffness, researchers found that the metabolic cost associated with running in stiffer shoes was increased though there was a relationship to running speed. Running at higher speeds reduced metabolic costs while running at lower speeds increased those costs. This has important relevance for the use of shoes with carbon fiber plates embedded in the soles. Those plates add significant stiffness to the sole of the shoe and this research would suggest that slower runners may be paying a penalty for using them in the form of a higher metabolic cost than if they used a softer soled shoe”. - Running Shoes and The Biomechanical Tradeoffs They Bring to Runners: Risks and Benefits? Juliet Hochman & J. Sankoff, M.D. You can bird dog down the precise studies, what I've said is kind of common knowledge in running circles and as you can read, affirmed with the aforementioned article. In terms of your 2nd question, generally speaking supershoes are not designed for a typical 'middle of the pack ' runners, in fact Adidas advertises the Evo 1 is optimized for elite and competitive runners. Lots of supershoes are optimized like this. That means features that accommodate those that are less than elite and or competitive - are not to be found in the shoe - and not having those features will hurt you in trying to run 26.2 . The average BMI of elite marathon runners is generally considered to be between 18 and 20 for men and slightly higher for women. This is significantly lower than the average BMI for the general population and middle of the pack runners. My only real point is way too many regular runners, especially middle pack runners commonly erroneously assume the latest & greatest supershoe is their ticket a great time, without coming to terms with so many other factors in the game.

[@chrisstapleton1304]

All my PBs are in super shoes. Some might say I’m a heavy occasional heal striker. Wear what you want and if it works then great.

[@arvinsandiego2686]

First! 🔥

[@SagasuRunning]

🥇

[@timo7641]

Nike solution is simple (now with new CEO), make a Pro Evo 1 competitor (just like what Asics did) a lineup that is above AF and VF (while perfecting the VF4)

[@Rich-zb7vc]

that is a sh*t ton of resources into racing flats, even for Nike (who is top heavy in flats to trainers ratio at least in innovation)

[@SagasuRunning]

It's coming...it's been in the works it seems for a while.

[@SagasuRunning]

You know this. Nike's heritage is running and performance first. The new leadership team, because Phil is involved again, also know this. I expect them to double down on elite super shoes and even roll out the ghost of Bowerman again...

[@realgrilledsushi]

Looking forward to AP4 for my race day shoe. I found it odd why Adidas bring out EVO SL when Boston 12 already fill that tempo run role. Anyway thanks for the Berlin shoes observation.

[@jazzyjay4595]

Because training in a shoe with a stiffening agent constantly isn’t a good thing for biomechanics 😅 you’ll see a lot of these types of shoes in the next 2 years. Using foam from their racing shoes, but in a non plated, lightweight trainer. Like the rebel. Other than the Evo SL, there’s about 5 that I know of coming out in the next year

[@SagasuRunning]

The Boston 12 is an ultra stiff shoe, not appropriate for walking or even daily running. It's a tempo trainer. The Evo SL covers everything the B12 did, but has more range and flexibility as far as use cases it covers. I do expect to see the B13 evolve next year.

[@SagasuRunning]

💯

[@gw4550]

VPF 1&2 (3) are simply fabulous shoes. Cheptegai races exclusively in them and, for good reason. Road feel, controlled propulsion. Difficult to beat. Nike really hit for the stars with them. Great work as always sir 👌🏽

[@SagasuRunning]

Fully agree…. They are both very special. However, the VF3 is my favorite. 👍🏻

[@gw4550]

@@SagasuRunning I'm warming to V3. It obviously is better. I need more time with it. V4 really needs to be special for Nike's presents in the market.

[@SagasuRunning]

@gw4550 The VF4 does need to be outstanding. I’m positive it will be for non-elites… but it needs to hit the mark for elites. The SF2 will be another shoe that needs to hit the mark…

[@gw4550]

@@SagasuRunning being a shoe geek I'm totally pumped. Can't wait. Thanks again sir for your insights and clarity 🙏🏽

[@TimGrose]

@@SagasuRunning A SF2 has already been used to set the road mile world record. In that sense, do you mean "hit the mark" for consumers who may take say up to twice as long?

[@JS-Treadmill-Running]

Good video again 👍🙂 I watched the entire race from start to finish. I would think there were about as many Pro 4 as Evo 4 among the best elite runners. I recorded the entire race and at one point they showed some sluemotion footage from behind. Pro 4 is red from behind. And has a white outsole as you say. But when you record it from the front it looks like it's black. But if you pause the recording, you can just see the red adidas continental.

[@SagasuRunning]

Ya, the Lightraxion outsole gets dirty...I also noticed a section of the course must of have fresh asphalt on it because at some point the athletes AP4s got VERY black and then that wore off as they got closer to 30k.

[@MiracleWarriors]

Did you see any Mizuno Wave Rebellion Pro 1 or 2 finishing in the 100 list ? Just curious.

[@SagasuRunning]

I didn't see any Mizuno anything anywhere in the photos I went through (press photos on Getty Images). Definitely not in the elite and pro fields. Though I bet there were a few out there, doubtful in the top 100 though.

[@brianreiter5572]

I thought it was going to be difficult to differentiate the Evo 1 and the white Adios Pro 4. The bright red ankle collar accent is fairly subtle differentiation from a distance. The geometry of the Evo 1 and Adios Pro 4 shoe is pretty close to the same. One thing Adidas can do if they really want to satisfy some elites anxiety while blurring the visible differences is make an Evo 1 with a Ligttraxion outsole. In general I don’t like pacers in races. It makes it kind of an exhibition think. I get that it is necessary to achieve absolute fastest times but championship racing which will have a lot of pace changes is more interesting, especially with some terrain that will cause a selection. Boston for example - which would not even be a legal word marathon course if created today because it is too straight as a point-to-point race and I think may also have too much net elevation loss.

[@SagasuRunning]

In the photos and videos the red in the AP4 is hard to see. So the outsole difference is the only way. An Evo 1 with the Lightraxion outsole would be very light… maybe less than the liquid rubber v1. I wonder if we will see that. If we see an Evo 2 we will for sure see it. Here in Taipei there is a race called the “highway marathon” which is essentially a straight line on the highway for about 10k, maybe a bit more…. Point to point until you hit the half distance or a full. All on a dead straight elevated highway. It seems like hell… especially with the heat and sun we have here.

[@TroySpringer11]

I kinda expected adidas to want to continue to keep elites in the Evo 1 and make the clear best shoe. I think it’s totally acceptable to sell an everyday racer in the Pro4 and Elite racer in the Evo and people still want to buy the pro4. Keeping the Evo as an aspirational brand building shoe is fine. No one is going to buy an F1 Ferrari, but it’s still good for the brand if their F1 cars win even though those cars are 1 of 1.

[@SagasuRunning]

You might be right. The difference with your analogy is that no one can buy a Ferrari F1 car (current gen, or gen in the past 10 years) and Ferrari isn't required to sell them. Instead the tech from the F1 program trickles down into their track and road cars. Adidas is required to sell the Evo 1 (or 2 if it becomes that) but I know they want the Evo 1 platform to develop new ideas and tech... We will need to keep an eye on the WA approved shoe list over the coming months and see if any "dev" models pop up for Adidas.

[@stevenlennie]

I wonder if we’ll see a Vaporfly 4 and a Vaporfly 4 Pro (or something with a similar name)

[@SagasuRunning]

We are seeing the VF4 more and more in leaks and we have heard/seen "elite" (Dev15) models of the AF3. Nike also release a Dragonfly 2 and Dragonfly 2 Elite track spike. I'm nearly 100% convinced we will see "elite" versions of Nike super shoes. Video inbound on this actually.

[@alpasfly]

Why do you expect to see that much Adidas shoes in Berlin?

[@SagasuRunning]

Berlin is Adidas's "home" (German soil) race. They always put on a big show, release major product and AdidasRunners always comes out with a ton of support. Adidas elites and pros also see prioritize Berlin over many other races.

[@marga_asana2run]

Thank you! I was looking exactly for this info :)

[@SagasuRunning]

I'm glad you found it then. Thank you for watching. 🤙🏻

[@jackodea8952]

Is ZoomX foam just too soft these days for the elite runners? The Next%, Next% 2 and Alphafly 1 are all still super prevalent on the elites feet. They all share a similar feeling of a slightly denser ZoomX foam whilst the Vaporfly 3 and Alphafly 3 both have a much softer feeling ZoomX foam. At an elite runners weight and speed is the new ZoomX just too soft for them and they are lacking that responsiveness. This also seems to be why the adidas adios, puma deviate and metaspeed shoes seem to be much more prevalent on elites feet compared to the past. They’re not firm shoes by any means but they do feel much more dense and responsive compared to the Nike shoes of late. The Alphafly with the air units in the forefoot give a similar feeling of slightly denser foam which is why it’s in my opinion more popular and faster for the elites but I still feel like the ZoomX foam is still a problem for elites.

[@TimGrose]

As I recall as soon as the Adios Pro 1 came out in 2020 we saw adidas athletes on podiums but immediately prior to that only "super" shoes were Nike ones. I guess in the last couple of years ASICS and Puma have produced competitive shoes and in the UK at least some of our leading runners like Eilish McColgan (ASICS) and Jack Rowe (Puma) have won some of our recent leading races in those brands.

[@SagasuRunning]

Whats ironic though is that the ZoomX found in the VF1/2 AF1/2 is much more fragile and airy. The current formulation in the VF3/AF3 is a little more dense (not firmer) and more durable. I've run back to back in VF1/2/3s, testing if I can feel a difference in the shoe. There is a definite difference but it's not so much the foam. The tooling and tuning aorund the midsole and plate differs greatly between the VF1/2 and VF3. The VF1/2 feel more minimal and like proper racing flats, where the VF3 feels like a super shoe in 2024. That is a combo of many things, all subtle details, but I think that is why some elites still prefer the VF1/2, it's even MORE stripped down for speed.

[@Rich-zb7vc]

Isn't it funny that adidas are recreating the nike alphafly/vaporfly conundrum with the evo/adios? At least with the adios they can say they are bringing evo tech to the masses (formula one theory, they don't want scrubs like me buying a $500. shoe). Nike doesn't show up en masse at Berlin because it is such an adi race, yeah record breakers have to because it is the fastest course, but what nike person wants the image of their runner crossing the line surrounded by adidas logos- its old school sports marketing tactics. It might not be a great spectator race, but i ran it in '98 or '99 while i was living there and it was an amazing course, you could still see the sharp contrast between the former east and west Berlin.

[@cooperyearick795]

Not at all the vaporfly/alphafly conundrum? What are you talking about?

[@SagasuRunning]

Same result, different reason. Adidas created a ultra fast shoe, focused on elites and wants to replace that shoe for said elites with a consumer model. Nike created a shoe (the VF3) that many of their top elites simply don't like and therefore run in older models. How do you get those elites to switch. Same conundrum, different problem. Adidas and nike engineering will solve them eventually... and it will be interesting to see.

[@SagasuRunning]

Same problem, different cause.