2024 Fall Meta Preview: All the Decks (Part 1: Top Tier) | Clock Talk | Episode 103 | Weiss Schwarz

Colton, Brandon and Brayden discuss the meta for the upcoming BCS season, starting with the top five sets in the format.
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[@ColeTrainStudio]

To expand on the nino discussion, i think its important to note that nino has more control over what it triggers on every attack on every turn than just about any other deck i can think of. The backrow 1/1 silently carries the entire deck in a really understated way. It allows you to rebuild when you need to and avoid burying CXs and other important cards. Which is to say, you get to choose more than any other deck what goes back when you refresh and how much damage you swing for at (almost) every level of the game.

[@Winterhe4rt]

That 1/1 backrow is THE reason to play the deck. Its crazy to me that so many people just throw it in as a random 1 off when really its the 1st standby target you should get out. The only annoying thing about it is.. well its a back row. between needing to standby out to back row (cause everything is so low power on backswing), having a Brainstormer and later the Assist and changer the back row is way occupied in this list imo.

[@ColeTrainStudio]

After relistening to this episode, I have a few thoughts: -I have to disagree with 5HY being top tier. They do show up a lot in BSF, for sure, but I don't that team performance is indicative or solo performance. There are just too many variables that 5HY can't handle, even with premium booster. I would consider 5HY Ichika to be on the same power level as sets like Spy x Family and Ayakashi Triangle, a little bit behind Oshi no Ko and Frieren, thanks to its excellent lv2 and lv3 game, with Nino and Itsuki trailing far behind, closer to nerfed CSM or GGST. That is to say, I think 5HY is on the high-end of "everything else"; on a traditional tier list, I think this would be them in B-tier. -Overlord is too fragile to excel in EN meta. SDS is hyper aggressive. Slime generally doesn't care, because it plays defense better than Overlord and builds back easily. BTR and Hololive can adapt and play around it with enough planning and skill, and both excel at shoving lots of damage early. Overlord did well in JP meta because the meta there was slower and more defensive than here. Overlord preys on less explosive decks that want to win board (like standby) and intricate combo decks (like the mirror match). I think we'll see a concerted effort to play it, and it will put up some results, but it requires more brain-power to play correctly than SDS or Slime, and those decks can deal with its nonsense. I'll happily eat those words later, but, like Brandon, I'm a skeptic. And when Frieren comes in, this deck is dead in the water, 100%. -3/2 Escanor wasn't a mistake. It's a powerful card, for sure, but when played in a more typical 1k1 shell or even without a 1-card enabler, it's not remotely oppressive. What really pushed it over the edge was having access to the 3/2 Gil (as y'all mentioned), as it really allowed you to warp the hell out of your deck and still get multiple 5-to-6-soul attacks without being punished. To illustrate this point, it is not remotely played now, despite having access to lane clearing (3/2 Merlin, 3/1 Goddess event) and top-deck fixing (0/0 King CX swapper). -I think everyone is a little low on Hololive right now (compared to Slime, SDS, and Overlord) and I think that will come back to bite people in the ass. As mentioned in the podcast, there is so much cooking to be done with this set and the card quality is so consistently high and flexible that the "best" deck is unlikely to be discovered already, not to mention the very real threat of rogue anti-meta decks coming from the set. For instance, I haven't seen any discussion on the 3/2 Aki burn-4 CXC with the new support or the 3/2 Moon costless burn-4 CXC. 3/2 Gura was/is so overwhelming good and 3/2 Marine is so ridiculously consistent, that people who tend to simply "play the best deck" didn't really need to look anywhere else. -3/2 Suisei CXC is a perfect board breaker that's stupid easy to splash into any hololive deck that runs pants. It completely dismantles slime and overlord, since it doesn't target. It is 1 slot (not counting the CX) to use at lv3, 2 slots if you want to use it at lv2. -I'm sure it's sorta becoming a meme at this point, but it really holds true. Any deck that doesn't have some form of on-demand decompression is not in the discussion for top-tier.

[@Prinz_WS]

@@ColeTrainStudio the concept that OVL is weaker in English is actually so ridiculous. The best decks in the format when ovl was considered top tier were PAD and Gura like anyone trying to compare OVL in JP and EN and making that claim had actually 0 concept of what saw play in Japan.

[@ColeTrainStudio]

@@Prinz_WS Nowhere did I say Overlord was weaker in EN, nor did imply it. I said it was too fragile to excel in the US. PAD and Gura Hololive utilize absurdly strong finishers, for sure, but the endgame plan doesn't dictate the rest of the game or the entirety of a play style. You can go ahead and disagree with that take, that's fine. It's true that I can only glean how people play via the JP gameplay channels or tournaments streams I watch, examining tournament results, and there's a language barrier. However, I'd say that amount of input surpasses "0 concept". It's clear from your other comments that you're an OVL stan, which is fine, but that clearly makes you biased *toward* the deck. As the podcast (and I in my above comment) said, I'm ready for it to prove me wrong, but the window to do so is rapidly closing.

[@camf1991]

I dont disagree quints is falling off a bit, but I dont think BTR is better than Itsuki. Yes it has stock shuffle/fumio, and can do simillar hand compression, but the finisher not having the moca 2 makes it worse overall.

[@Prinz_WS]

But it's also 4 stock to triple + stock shuffle and doesn't need 9 hand to triple. Itsuki is a fraud as hell deck that the moment u miss triple suddenly feels so much less threatening. Itsuki also implodes on itself if it misses the door, it genuinely feels like if u don't see the lvl 3 door door it's a slow painful roll to the bottom as you watch your ability to resolve your finisher slowly diminish

[@ColeTrainStudio]

You don't seem to be considering the floor of the deck. It is considerably more difficult to have a "do nothing" finisher turn with BTR than 5HY. Ryo is on a bar, which is easier to naturally get throughout the game, and selectively cantrips and makes a stock. On top of that, its CXC is after it attacks, making it essentially a discard-1-character finisher. If you use your stock shuffle and fumio appropriately, then the moca-2 that 5HY has becomes much less important. Other than a few absurdly powerful name-locked utility lv0s, BTR has everything 5HY has and then some. In particular, what made Itsuki singularly strong among 5HY was its +2 to hand size, which Bocchi also does and does on a better brainstormer (salvage with a soul trigger). I'd still argue that BTR is generally less powerful when compared to hololive, sds, and slime, but it is definitely better than 5HY.

[@janks2267]

Not really sure why it was stated that the Millum level 1 cxc in TSK can target the 1/1 Ainz backrow when the TSK combo only targets backrow level 0s or lower. That combo does nothing to hinder OVL unless the OVL player puts their JC in the backrow and is relying on using it that turn in order to have the resources for Ainz on the following turn.

[@TheClockTowerWeissSchwarz]

The slime player can -1 level to a character in the back row (1 to a 0) and then remove a back row character. Being able to remove the Ainz 1/1 or the shaltear 1/0 is definitely more impactful than whatever 0 might be in the back row. - Brandon

[@J0k3573r]

@@TheClockTowerWeissSchwarzwhich character knocks the lvl off?

[@Kazair113]

@@J0k3573r TSK/S101-E062 - A Fight to Become the Demon Lord, Rimuru

[@WeisSacKing]

​@@J0k3573rthere is a red L0 Rimuru from v3 that can delevel the 1 to a 0.

[@J0k3573r]

You mention quints but no deck break. Bottom of A tier, at best.

[@Prinz_WS]

Re: OVL bc im that guy. OVL came out last september. also i think its a bit fake to put 8 bar as a popular list bc it topped a single event in france esp when that combo is just actively worse than the door.

[@TheClockTowerWeissSchwarz]

That’s fair. That graphic is not a fair representation of how solidified the deck is currently. When we evaluated OVL in conversation, the set/deck we discussed was the Door/Bar list. Thanks for pointing that out! - Brandon

[@Prinz_WS]

@@TheClockTowerWeissSchwarz Yeah I get you, just also wanted to remind you guys this is only OVLs 2nd total singles depsite how long it feels like we've had it.

[@Duragung]

Does no one run the albedo combo for EN?

[@Prinz_WS]

@@Duragung TLDR basically albedo is just worse than shalltear in every way, it needs a reverse while shalltear works vs empty lanes, Shalltear is bigger, and can plus an extra time by going to memory and coming back. Door is also just a really strong trigger for extra selection.

[@Duragung]

Gotcha. What about Overlord's other deck? I see people run 8 standby in JP after the ban on 1/1 Ainz

[@Winterhe4rt]

Eehh.. First, I guess. =D