#286

In this episode we are going to recap Game 1 of the NBA finals, talk about where Jokic ranks all time, Suns and Pistons new coaching hires, Saints chances in the NFC, and debate who’s in a better situation between Jordan Love and Justin Fields.
Hosts: Joel Moran, River Brown, Andrew Velez, Joel Dehls
Producer: John Tortorelli
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Intro 00:00
2. Joel asks Riv a Jimmy Butler question about his all-time ranking 04:30
3. Boom fantasy game 2 picks 24:45
4. Riv looks at James Harden’s playoffs 32:00
5. Do the Nuggets have the finals locked up? 41:18
6. Where would Jokic rank all-time with a championship? 01:01:35
7. Shadyrays 01:30:19
8. Pistons hire Monty Williams 01:31:40
9. Suns hire Frank Vogel 01:58:17
10. Ja Morant situation 02:17:51
11. Jimmy Garoppolo 02:37:00
12. Joel addresses Riv’s Derek Carr disrespect 02:46:40
13. Should the Saints be heavy favorites to win a questionable NFC South? 02:56:40
14. Justin Fields or Jordan Love: Who’s in a better position to succeed in 2023? 03:08:17

[@pickaside]

Intro 00:00 2. Joel asks Riv a Jimmy Butler question about his all-time ranking 04:30 3. Boom fantasy game 2 picks 24:45 4. Riv looks at James Harden’s playoffs 32:00 5. Do the Nuggets have the finals locked up? 41:18 6. Where would Jokic rank all-time with a championship? 01:01:35 7. Shadyrays 01:30:19 8. Pistons hire Monty Williams 01:31:40 9. Suns hire Frank Vogel 01:58:17 10. Ja Morant situation 02:17:51 11. Jimmy Garoppolo 02:37:00 12. Joel addresses Riv’s Derek Carr disrespect 02:46:40 13. Should the Saints be heavy favorites to win a questionable NFC South? 02:56:40 14. Justin Fields or Jordan Love: Who’s in a better position to succeed in 2023? 03:08:17

[@truthfrancisco7991]

Jokic can never catch Hakeem wtf. Dream is the greatest defender of all time

[@teledanhogan4237]

I saw Wilt &Bill play. I graduated in 1970 so I’ve seen almost all the greatest players. Skywalker,Iceman ,Dr J we’re my favorites for years .followed by Moses,Dave Cowens,Lew/Kareem Shaq all great in their own ways. To me Jokic is as transcendent as the greatest. His abilities to make players better is beyond anything ever seen in my time. I believe his flaw of rim protection would be covered by the ability to put teammates who rim protect around him. I’d start my team with him over anyone I’ve seen play since playing myself in 1967. Everyone had a flaw and the best defense is great offense. Jokic is the best offensive machine ever and I don’t think it’s close…

[@chrismitchell457]

Can u say prisoner of the moment

[@UserName-go7hm]

@@chrismitchell457 he’s averaging a 30 point triple double throughout the playoffs. It’s literally unheard of lol

[@sydguitar99]

​@UserName-go7hm it helps that he has Jamal Murray who's a literal flamethrower

[@UserName-go7hm]

@@sydguitar99 other players have had “flamethrowers” on their teams and didn’t do this. You can’t downplay a 30 point triple double idc who his teammates are

[@KC-824]

Damn.

[@SillySelah]

4 hr episode? Y'all are the best

[@youngnebula187]

Yeah I most definitely appreciate the commitment too

[@eazymb.]

I appreciate this 4 hour episode. Y’all know it’s summertime for real. And lot of us ain’t got shit to do if we ain’t at work.

[@naughtybandits]

Love this pod. Don’t care if it’s NFL or NBA. Both awesome!

[@LetsPlayerAshe]

I’m so glad y’all a podcast because I follow y’all on TikTok and I really enjoy y’all content, y’all are amazing keep up the great work!

[@adonay2800]

I love the russ respect in the beginning😂 makin me feel good as a russ fan

[@miyagifatghost2684]

Played yoself

[@djmbenga3517]

Feels like a throwback episode. Not live anymore and back to reading the patreon names. W

[@StormCMC]

Idk how I keep getting here but every time I fall asleep watching youtube when I wake up it’s on this podcasts. I finally paid attention today. Don’t know who any of you guys are but I enjoyed your content, takes and discussions. Keep it coming💯💯💯

[@pickaside]

💯💯

[@emariscottmusic]

Just here to say Dehls kills the Boom Fantasy segment every episode it gets better and better it’s become my favorite part of every pod 🫡

[@darrengordon-hill]

47:16 GREAT ANALYSIS!! Most coaches "scheme/gameplan" - First A then B then C. Then they adjust during games/series Jokic is very "read and react" - so is rarely trying to enforce "Plan A" - He's literally gonna "take what they give him" on any given possession... They "front" him first play... Jamal immediately turns it into a pick for an easy layup MIA go zone - Joker goes "iso" in his defender (as opposed to some guys that "seek out mismatches") They're sagging on AG? Cuts and lob passes and Euro step bully ball cos out of position Put Bam on him in the post? Go to work, draws fouls NOT "forcing ball into post cos desperate to get Bam in foul trouble" type stuff Doesn't waste shot clok time mindlessly dribbling at half court - that's 17-20secs of assessing the defence and player/ball movement, so they're less panicked with 3secs on the shot clock than many teams THAT'S hard to "adjust" to scheme wise

[@Picdd]

joel bringing up james harden’s elimination games 9:24 around the jimmy butler question was so funny, he was ready for harden v. butler III 😂

[@jadenlloyd6758]

we need another episode w OG for the finals🙏🏽

[@darrengordon-hill]

TIM DUNCAN IS THE GOAT Only TMac stopped him from being 6-0 (Basketball Gods WERE NOT gonna let him "ride the pine" to a ring)

[@71SanClare]

Jason Kidd over Westbrook and Paul based on playoff performance alone. Also Wilt won two championships.

[@6ides548]

I'm taking joker offensively over ANY CENTER in history there's nothing you can do with him

[@riles3100]

reading the names of the patrons just gave me nostalgia

[@rgeezy5748]

Nah riv getting tight with drew had me crying real tears 😂😂😂 bro wanted to put mits on him

[@bdownes1234]

2:30:41 I don’t think they’re understanding Joel’s point on the Ja situation.. a full season suspension might be the only way for Ja to understand it’s not a joke since apparently he didn’t understand the first time. The suspension length will tell us if Adam Silver is a push over or not.

[@kennethkinkel4868]

I had Jokic 5th all time in Centers just above Malone but kept Wilt in the top 2. I can see your argument on Wilt very thought out I never watched him play and only see stats hard to tell. Jokic is about to enter greatness status! Man what a ride as a 43 year Nuggets fan. Let’s finish this! So excited

[@jgunna98]

could someone please tell me what episode did they do the nic claxton who would you rather?

[@pickaside]

Episode 250

[@teej7777]

Haven’t even watched yet…Jordan Love clears

[@samhebert7298]

Saints love on the Pod it’s a miracle

[@Geassed1st]

Wilt was putting up those numbers on hooks and fades if he played like Shaq he’d foul out every game Before you disrespect a legend do your research Joel Wilt couldn’t even use his strength to dominate like Shaq and Bills teams were stacked he averaged 14 on poor shooting

[@thedigggers]

love yall pod. there's a song called pick a side by Artist Icytwat. could see yall using this for something someday lol

[@davidanoka-ayembe4258]

Four hours??? THIS IS WHAT THE PEOPLE WANT

[@trewavvy6676]

Docs problem is offensive play calling if pick and roll don’t work then we can’t do anything

[@sparkyfister]

How do you put Kidd over Kevin Johnson?

[@montana0091]

Time stamps pls 🙏🏾

[@emariscottmusic]

32:37 😭😭😭😭😭😭

[@michaelwhite4004]

I think my saints got a good chance we got a lot of question marks but I think we are going to be really good this season and breakout this football season.🏈

[@NarutoManiac300]

Love the Harden apologist takes from Joel. Gotta balance out the slander.

[@darrengordon-hill]

1:02:28 Hakeem is two time FINALS MVP. Only reg season MVP was 94. David Robinson "robbed" him of back-to-back MVPs... then got cooked in the playoffs. And Hakeem doesn't have Jokic's passing numbers... so there's that (Hakeem is all time in blocks)

[@jalemjones]

Goatsssssss💙⭐️

[@drehaynie164]

This dudes don't realize Wilt played against (90games)Walt Bellamy,(16 games) Lanier, (47 games)Nate Thurmond, (22 games)Elvin Hayes,(19 games) Wes Unseld,(4 games) Macadoo, (55 games)Willis Reed,(17 games) Kareem, and (94 games)Russell. All these dudes are in the HOF.

[@YoBoyJayden]

Yessir!!! 🔥

[@wuspoppinmayne4364]

Sabonis just broke the King's franchise for consecutive double doubles (47) and leads the league in triple-doubles. Let's get some Kings talk back! 🤝👑

[@kingcastle2000]

I know Drew be wanting to rip his face off with these damn near 4 he videos, but the streets appreciate it for sure

[@Shortballa11]

Jkidd 100% is top 5 all time. Lead his team to 2 finals. Supporting cast with 1 ring. All time stats complement him. Became a great 3 point shooter. Triple double machine. Defense on point.

[@mrlemonsir5380]

I think we forget that Jimmy Butler himself said "Playoff Jimmy" isn't a thing and that he's just been hooping

[@darrengordon-hill]

That name is the BIGGEST insult I've heard!!!

[@GeneralEatsMotors]

Riv rides hard for Justin Jefferson lol Calvin Johnson was the most athletic physical specimen I’ve ever seen at wide out.

[@luisfernandonova1488]

“Wilt or tua” 😭😭😭😭😭

[@darrengordon-hill]

"Turnovers" is a misleading stat. Cos sometimes you steal the ball and go staright into a fastbreak layup... but sometimes it's a shot clock violation or the ball goes out of bounds, which stops the clock/game while the other team inbounds, allowing the team that turned over to get back on defence Like INTs In NFL. Some are just "change of possession" ("Hail Mary" pass equivalent to a punt) but some result in a "short field" for your opponent to try to score from or worse, points directly. Like, guessing you get fewer pts off a "backcourt violation" turnover than by PG steals at the top of the key..

[@millert18]

Why does every podcast have a segment about James Harden lol

[@jephtahcoe]

Zeeeeke!!! Isiah Thomas over Stockton

[@darrengordon-hill]

When they say "Jokic needs be better on D"... but have (D)irk ranked above him...

[@Shortballa11]

Jimmy career before Miami was stacked. Every year he was in the playoffs. All defense in Chicago. Brought the Wolves to the playoffs for the first time in like 2 decades. And was the go to guy with the Sixers when it came to the clutch. He was head to head with Kawhi and scored the bucket right before Kawhis game winner

[@darrengordon-hill]

1:08:25 Used to HAVE to deal with/challenge the center... Now they move them out of the paint by stretching the floor... So we should adjust our views on "centers controlling the paint" Dikembe in the modern game would likely be a washout - "can't guard in space" Most 3s attempted per game IN HISTORY - How are centers supposed to "rack up blocks" on "step back 3s"?? See more "chase down" blocks and "corner 3s" blocked than attempted dunks... now, once you've breeched the perimeter, you've likely an open path to the rim...

[@vcj2729]

I still cannot get over the Zach Wilson clears Daniel Jones take. I still need that apology.

[@darrengordon-hill]

D12 > Ewing possibly... although he'd likely be a PF in Ewing's era (so too AD and Damo Sabonis) Dwight got a ring but as a reserve 3x DPOY Unsure if either got scoring titles Dwight a journeyman while Ewing is a Knicks icon.. Good debate... But Admiral > both.

[@samuelraji8343]

Hakeen was shooting over Shaq during the Finals and Shaq was bodying Hakeem and dunking. So it would be the same with Kareem but his scoring was way more efficient.

[@np134]

You guys need to get Legend of Winning for a episode because some of these rankings are wildly inaccurate, Iverson isn't even close to Harden even with the choking.

[@whatamidoing4]

Jokic over Timmy D I’m sorry Timmy was a product of his system jokic is his teams system

[@trustnun_staylow]

James over Iverson is crazy

[@LetsPlayerAshe]

Question though if Jimmy wins a ring this year, is he above Harden? Especially if he plays at a high level

[@kendallbeltran24]

I could of sworn Joel said he didn’t like Frank Vogel

[@Geassed1st]

The Dwight disrespect needs to stop dude was a tank with a 40 inch vertical Jokic is also playing in an era where stopping centers like him isn’t a priority defensively

[@kyriediculous3413]

bro what happened to the time stamps?

[@pickaside]

They are up my man

[@kyriediculous3413]

@@pickaside I refrshed it like 3 times and it didn't show

[@kadenbass6934]

Carr over Vick is crazy

[@jackharrist8180]

The only adjustment Miami can make is for every player to grow 4 inches and put on 20 pounds of muscle.

[@darrengordon-hill]

51:55 26pts on 13-25 = "master class"??? From a center??? Jokic had 27 on HALF the attempts....

[@klutchkgotthemic2900]

2: Big fan!! The reason why i would take Jimmy over harden is the willing to win. He probably won’t have the best #s but you need a stop Jimmy will be on the best player or looking to draw a foul or a clutch bucket. Harden in big games just like these playoffs are passive don’t want that pressure.

[@shannonk.6528]

Coach Williams wife had breast cancer and he didn't know what the prognosis was which is why he turned down the first offer. It appears she will be ok, so then he took the job. He said in the press conference yesterday the bag was a big factor; he admitted it.

[@ifailatblackops1]

Revisit the Westbrook vs kids debate, I genuinely think Russ is a top 5 pg all time and could have easily won his 4th assist title if harden didn’t come to the clippers

[@TheMaxxJanis]

Y’all only put Oscar top 5 for triple doubles n 1 ring, also in arguably a not as competitive era

[@Ant2tufffr]

8:44 perfect lets exempt stockton having no rings and dame not getting one and whoever else got crushed by a dynasty

[@dylanbach8578]

1:00:53 One thing to note about some of the one number impact metrics for defense - it’s pretty clear now with the emergence of Jokic that there should be reevaluation of those metrics, which basketball statisticians are currently undertaking. I forget which metric is most susceptible to this but to put it briefly, defensive impact numbers are inherently positively skewed towards big men due to their natural size, length and therefore better rim protection (the most impactful defensive skill) compared to guards and forwards. However, there are a few factors that may confound the data: - high assists: a purely offensive stat that also ends up generating defensive value because helping your teammates make a shot = the opponent loses a potential rebound & fast break opportunity. - offensive rebounding: same logic as above - low foul rate: less free throws given up which are the most efficient form of scoring This creates a compounding effect since Jokic not contesting every shot at the rim means he won’t get pulled out of the game, which also means he can continue to rack up assists and boards, even though he may have given up a layup. The metrics are generally measuring how many points you can PREVENT and Jokic breaks that model because of him being a big man with an all time assist rate and efficiency without fouling. Some of those metrics end up not actually measuring how good he is when actually playing defense but his overall defensive impact from the box score. Hope that makes some sense

[@andreraffla5555]

Also, having defensive metrics skewed for big men does make sense. To be an elite defensive team, you need 1 interior presence and 4 perimeter. If your big man is bad on defense, no matter how good the rest of the teams perimeter defense is, you'll have a gap inside for the other team to take advantage of. On the other hand, if you have 1 bad perimeter defender but a good interior one with 3 other good perimeter defenders, the team will continue being elite defensively.

[@joshm.s.4855]

Bro James Harden is doo doo let it goo

[@datboirai7326]

Justin Fields is like dat!!!

[@TEZEM0N]

goat

[@wolf0o01]

I understand why people would say Jimmy over Harden and it's because Harden to me is like an Allen Iverson in the sense that he looked like a small man giants but peel back the allure of Iverson and Harden you see a man that get's a lot of points on average or below average efficiency. Then when it comes to the playoffs. Jimmy get's Better sometimes slightly or has done the shit he's been doing this year... Destroying teams on paper that he shouldn't win against. And when you look at Harden for the first half of a series he's great the second half dips and sometimes gives you like Ben Simmons like production. Like what the fuck! It's not just in this series with the 76ers he also did that with the Rockets. And another thing Harden does that's similar to Ben Simmons He gives up... Just gives up.

[@calebwalker5135]

Wilt chamberlain was a track olympian with touch around the rim these dudes dont no ball

[@Blender_and_Chirp]

Was Jimmy not all nba and a superstar on the Bulls? Feel like he’s been a superstar since the year after his breakout year around 2015-16 era.

[@betweendalinesnbapodcast3733]

if he wins jokic and garnett is still not a argument jesus joel 🤦🏽‍♂

[@jeremiahsmith7706]

If you convert Wilt's 50 ppg season and adjust for pace he still averages 40.5 ppg and 20 boards in the modern era. Thats absolutely insane. Joel context bending like crazy right now🤣💀

[@pickaside]

No he does not lol

[@jeremiahsmith7706]

@@pickaside in that specific season, per 100, wilt averages 40 in 1962.

[@pickaside]

@@jeremiahsmith7706 Per 100 possessions Jokic in the last three seasons is at 38 PPG

[@jeremiahsmith7706]

@@pickaside which is great but modern day basketball is almost right at 100 possessions already since 2022. I think 98? 99? And we see what Jokic is putting up.

[@pickaside]

@@jeremiahsmith7706 Yes but Jokic is not playing that many possessions. He's playing closer to 70-80 a night.

[@MrKillian1983]

No current player belongs on an all time great list. The defense is too soft and it's much easier to score now.

[@klxvd9970]

Regarding the pistons, Cade would be better at the 2 rather than the three. And move ivey to the one, who’s proven to be a solid playmaker in the nba rn, and still draft a wing to fill in the 3. Cade is not 6’ 8, he’s 6’6

[@at8869]

Comparing the joker to Hakeem with accolades is a disservice too Hakeem Hakeem greatness and as a basketball is way more then just the accolades

[@darrengordon-hill]

2:30:00 YES RED (apologies, not yet learned all your names)!! "I wanna see Ja play/The NBA is better when Ja plays" IS STAR PLAYER BIAS!!! I've been the NBA since 1992... so if Ja Morant NEVER EVER PLAYED, it wouldn't affect me, as the NBA has an array of players/teams to enjoy... So if he's suspended +40games, THAT'S HIS FAULT!!! "25 games is sufficient because "I" want to see him play" is what got us here in the first place (aka "He's too big a draw to miss the playoffs) - well I'm sorry sirs, but NO MAN is "too valuable"!! If you ground a child for a week, KEEP YOUR WORD!! They'll grow to respect you for it... but if you rescind after 3 days cos there's a party, you're a wishy-washy parent they'll torment for life!! I suspend you for public foolish gun-toting... and you reenact it with a toy gun?? Go be a (internet) thug; NBA DOES NOT need THAT!!!

[@at8869]

Jimmy dropped 41 game 1 29 game 2 and then gets injured games 3,4,5 Jimmy played bad but was playing through injury then drops 47 game 6 and 35 game 7 HOW can there be pushback on who played better between Jimmy and JT last year it’s obviously jimmy

[@communityevangelist4506]

That boy in his feelings 😂

[@808bboarder]

Ja is getting a full season suspension 😂

[@johnsocko2839]

Jason kidd or steve nash?

[@leaderleming6748]

Shaq is not obtainable. Not remotely. Never thought i would see Shaq become underrated.

[@darrengordon-hill]

Blocks are a hell of a drug!!! Embiid gets a 3~4 blocks in a game cos weak perimeter defence and he's a "rim protector"... Blocks get the crows hyped... But I do recall Tatum SEEKING OUT this "defensive beast" and COOKING HIM repeatedly!!!! Accepted there are few centers IN HISTORY that can guard in "open space"... but Embiid's blocks sure do cover up a lot of bad defence... while Jokic plays defence without getting "stats" (nobody cares about "deflections", blocks/steals or GTFO) He plays smart - no point compounding gettung beaten on the play hy giving up and-1 too, as we saw in G1 Blocking the ball into the 4th row is intimidating and gets the crowd into it... but the offence retain possession... to me, "defence" is securinf possession - what's the benefit of a block if if bounces to their teammate for an open layup?? I block your 2pt attempt out of bounds... you inbound and hit a 3; what's the VALUE of my block in that scenario?

[@dylanbach8578]

Always a great point to repeat: traditional box score defensive stats suck. Like you mentioned, blocks as a stat alone means nothing. Block = pass/dribble deflection whereas block+rebound = steal. Jokic shows up in higher defensive impact metrics because he’s a big man who gets tons of rebounds and steals which ensure that possession goes to Denver, whereas a block does not always mean that. That’s why Hassan Whiteside who blocks a shitton was never a better defender than Gobert whose blocks have gone down over his career as more and more players learn to straight up try and avoid him because of his presence + he tends to block shots and tip them to teammates.

[@gregorycastillo4799]

Spurs jersey Go Spurs go

[@bduptownsquirll72]

Wilt didn’t win the first finals mvp because there wasn’t a mvp yet

[@cowtowntx.6740]

I can't believe this Kidd take

[@alliefreeman2614]

We gotta remember, Hakeem should have 2 MVPs. He was robbed of the one they gave to David Robinson.

[@NarutoManiac300]

Wilt was an athletic freak, if he played today he would be shaq like or more modern day- Giannis Like. you cant just condense down a completely different game and say that is adding all the context.

[@SneakerGod22]

This dude really sat here and said it’s easier to raise your level in the playoff as a posed to the regular season. Like the refs don’t call less fouls in playoff and teams key in to your tendencies and force you to more difficult shots to dismiss them and what Jimmy is doing. Bro is sad lol.

[@skoolynugenator1802]

Joel is the only sane one on the Morant talk. You got three Morant fans that don’t want him suspended for lengthy amount of time because they want to see him play?! 25 games?! Are you kidding me?! 8 was a joke and anything less than 40 would be to. Ja has fucked up over and over and over again. You can argue the severity of each incident, but it’s obvious he doesn’t have any fear of consequences. 50 game suspension and losing endorsements should teach him a lesson to act professional when you are making that kind of money and have millions of kids looking up to you.

[@johnvang4443]

Christain watson , romeo doubs, and samori toure are going to have a big year 2 jump. i expect watson to get 1000+ yards, i expect doubs to get 700+ yards, i expect toure to get 500+ yards btw toure bhad only 82 yards so thats a big jump.

[@Spaceage713]

Hakeem was top 10 in 5 different categories...including steals and blocks....the disrespect of the Dream.....I get it tho...Htown hate is definitely real

[@dylanhardensandhu]

2:11:01 River baby raging 😭😭

[@losangelescardinals]

The fact that Joel grabbed all these garbage analytical stats just to be wrong is championship levels of hating. A quick google search shows that Wilt has two rings not one. Not to mention there’s an obvious reason that Wilt had trouble against the Bill Russell-led Celtics and it wasn’t exclusive Russell

[@eric02156]

Lol... These guys never saw Wilt Chamberlain and how great he was . The greatest center.. He still has many records that no one has achieved... lol.

[@joacoT23]

Im from argentina so i appreciate that Scola love but stop clowning facu 🤣🤣

[@ClutchCity71]

2018 Rockets one of the greatest teams to not win a ring

[@jeremiahsmith7706]

1:13:36 Having Moses Malone over Wilt should be illegal. Then proceeding to have Jokic over Wilt already? That's just a dogshit take. It should be a crime. I agree with Joel's top 4 centers, I'd just swap Shaq over Hakeem.