#319

[@user-qm7nw7vd5s]

That struck me as odd too, the all forgiving, even glorifying portrayal of Mao, and post-Mao Communist China in the highest circles of academia in top American universities. Professor Dikotter’s lectures are great. This is a real treat, listening in on an informal interview. 👍👍

[@mrniceguy7168]

Frank is the best

[@beeefstick]

“Our Democracy”… sounds familiar right here in the good ol’ USA

[@jasonshachat5364]

Bingo!

[@sickmoney93]

awesome episode ❤

[@amadoubah9296]

Good questions; trite answers. The guess has the ability to make banal and simplistic explanations sound original and unconventional.

[@DFWNites]

How bout that fentanyl? Call this guy back for a follow up Q&A.

[@echossrabbit4715]

Those who are doing research on China, Taiwan can be a good source of information .

[@ClydeWarden]

GREAT interview. Marshall's questions are really deep and take advantage of having Dikötter on. Marhshall's question about WHY there is this accepted idea of China being special is very well addressed in Spence's book, The Chan's Great Continent: China in Western Minds (chinoiserie I think explains better than orientalism).

[@youtubehatesus2651]

I just discovered Dikotter and now want to listen to everything.

[@gurpchirp]

ohhh man. buckle up.

[@KW-hk2jd]

I completely agree, US commentators make sweeping generalizations about the Chinese. They hear one person say what great planners they are (how’s that one child policy working out?) and everyone just repeats it. But then we need to remember what we are getting now is a news “product”. That’s why I’m listening to your podcast instead. Keep up the good work!

[@kemptonbryan]

Please invite Ninja on to discuss fortnite.

[@AmericanJobsFactory]

Check out "The China Show". To see the real deal.

[@fori6377]

I have to agree with Dikötter‘s critics, his analysis is ideologically driven and sloppy, constantly smoothing over facts not convenient for his narrative. He claims that the experience of the cultural revolution hardened future CCP leaders against allowing the populous to express itself - yet that is exactly what happened during the early 80s: censorship in the arts was rolled back drastically to near pre-cultural revolution levels, spaces for public expression like the famous Tiananmen sq public billboard were created, and spaces in media were carved out where criticism of the government/system was possible, particularly on state television. Dikötter‘s analysis may be gaining more weight given the increasing hostility of the western establishment, mainstream media & political consensus to China, but we should retain strong critical standards for analysis about such important topics.

[@AMTFan1]

So... do you agree or disagree? Not sure to follow you here...

[@christianfischer9340]

This comment leaves me speechless.

[@donovanc4213]

Hey, now do an interview with a Marxist professor of Chinese history so we can get a diversity of viewpoints!

[@monomij]

I really don't think they will do this, they won't interview any Chinese professors either - they are happy with literally a right-wing Dutch "Oriental Studies" anti-Chinese bigot lol

[@linusmayden8465]

Don't be silly, they will justify why China expel foreigners, cause you know it's not like missionaries tried converting China to Christianity and or they had their own ulterior motives for their own private interest. Seeing this Westerner get mad like if the CPC had no legitimate reason to do it. The century of humiliation, opium wars, invasions from Japan, Russia, British gave them all the reason.

[@ddav8187]

Yes, and a Nazi professor to counter talks on WW2 and Germany as well

[@christianfischer9340]

I could listen to Dikötter for ages. Great stuff. Ad fontes!

[@jimmason7556]

Awesome talk.

[@ourhandsbuilteverything7461]

What a refreshing conversation here Monday morning. As Americans, we want to believe that all societies/nations ultimately desire democracy. This is a major blind spot that has prevented most of our political elite from properly understanding the PRC -- and maybe other nations -- for decades.

[@saintlybeginnings]

The vast majority do, (well, not a strict Democracy, but a Democratic Republic that is bound by a Constitution & Bill of Rights that act as an additional protection of the people) as seen in basically every country that has implemented a Constitutional Democratic Republic - ie Hong Kong, India, Taiwan, S Korea It is logical that the people would desire to have a govmt that is of, for, by the people rather than elitist who take power & oppress their people. The massive lock downs, Genocide, control over the people, the tyranny being seen by the CCP against the people. In which protesting against the govmt will have you brutally taken from your home & sent to concentration labor camps, where your family will not hear from you/ know where you are/ & very likely will not see you again.

[@nicojames813]

Absolutely love his delivery style. Reminds me of one of my favorite college professors

[@archstanton3931]

More guests with this enthusiasm please.

[@marshallkosloff8019]

Yep, working on it for 2023. I really enjoyed speaking with Frank

[@chicanohek]

Cmilk and Serpentza could learn something from Frank

[@silverado9104]

One of the best (the best?) editions of this program -- I learned a lot and enjoyed the tone. Astonished to learn that Kissinger's truism about the Chinese thinking in the very long term was a misinterpretation

[@tfustudios]

Thanks Marshall! Interviews like this are just a further testament to the value you guys have built! Bravo!

[@willp1653]

Awesome interview! I genuinely learned quite a bit. Thank you.

[@tylerstevensx]

Great talk and great guest. I’ll check out the book

[@AMTFan1]

You mean, the books. ;)

[@anypercentdeathless]

Patronizing and simple.

[@ddav8187]

No explanation given, just childish seething: looks like the commie has entered the chat...

[@edwardrichardson8254]

Stereotypes exist because there are truths in generalities. Take the Devious Oriental. I have a Japanese aunt who once expressed to me the truth of this stereotype, that it's just a known in Japan you say one thing to Westerners while you're thinking another. I heard a Houston real estate developer also express this sentiment regarding dealings with Chinese over properties - they will go back on the deal and don't think they've achieved success until they've screwed you over. A century ago Russians were associated as Mongolians and easterners on this and it is absolutely true about Russians, they lie like they breathe. Patton, who wanted to run them out of E. Europe, called the "all out liars and chronic drunks." I have to disagree with Prof. Dikötter on Americans traveling. America is larger than China. The distance from London, England to Milan, Italy is not even the distance to cross Texas. We have to travel vast distances often to just see relatives. America is the most diverse nation on the planet, it's not even close. But to hone in on his point that Americans are somehow limited by this: Is there anyone more affected, relentlessly arrogant, and stubborn in their worldview than some Frenchman or Englishman? I'll take the political instincts of your average American any day of the week over them. It's why they're socialists and we are not. It's why we pulled the Nazi boot out of their faces and safeguarded them from the USSR for half a century, never mind saving them in WWI. Everything else though - superlative. He's the best on China and my hat's off to you for just sitting back and letting him talk.

[@JakeLOL1111]

Got to agree on the first half mate. Anyone who's spent some time around the culture just knows that they lie and deceive about every. It has nothing to do with race - it's to do with culture. You can have someone of Chinese ethnicity, have them grow up completely immersed in a fairly honest culture and the result is completely different. Obviously this doesn't apply to every mainlander, personal differences always apply. but you're just being hopelessly naive and a bit silly if you don't use it as a general rule of thumb. As for the second bit, I get what you're saying and generally agree. I hate when British people have some kind of annoying superiority complex when it comes to America. Makes pretty much no sense and sometimes just outright hypocritical - we have lots of similar problems to the US and people just take for granted that we rely on them for protection of our basic values. Having said that think the world war 2 bit is a little unfair - we declared the war and it took you guys a while to get in considering we were fighting the literal Nazi's. Having said that, I don't see any point arguing about history and letting it divide us - I think the thing we desperately need right now is solidarity amongst the Western powers in the face of this monstrosity.

[@edwardrichardson8254]

​@@JakeLOL1111 You lost a million souls fighting zee Germans in WWI (a war started by Russia and France) over the ridiculous notion of "Belgian sovereignty" - something you had no power to guarantee any more than you did "Polish sovereignty" in the next war. As I recall, it was 2 million American troops that ended WWI after Russia folded from Bolshevism. Yes, you declared war on Germany when they invaded Poland, but note how you declined to declare war on Russia when they co-invaded the other larger half two weeks later. Where was British concern for "Polish sovereignty" when on September 17, 1939, Soviet Foreign Minister Vyacheslav Molotov declared that the Polish government has ceased to exist as the U.S.S.R. exercised the “fine print” of the Hitler-Stalin Non-aggression pact? It was bullshit from the start, and like WWI the BEF got its ass kicked and were it not for the German order to halt short of Dunkirk, 300k British troops would've met the same end as the BEF of 1914 in WWI (Go into a college and look at the CLASS OF 1914 - there is nobody there in some instances). You further drove you country into insane debt, lost your Empire, which is when your immigration woes began as black, gorwn, and Asian "subjects of the Crown" began arriving in England from former colonies demanding to be treated as citizens - which they got. That was the entire point of Enoch Powell and that bunch. And finally, when we did enter the war with you (which we won, we outproduced all belligerents combined - the USSR survived only via a quarter-trillion dollars in today's money of Lend-Lease) what did we get? Stalin and a communist murder state far, far deadlier than Nazi Germany dominating half of Europe, acquiring nuclear weapons, and building walls to keep Germans in as we do airlifts so they don't starve to death. Had you (and we) left Hitler alone, let him wipe communism off the face of the map, there would be no Red China, no North Korea and Vietnam (and hence neither of those wars), no Castro, no Venezuela, no Eastern block, E. Germany, thousands of ICBMs pointed at the West, no Cuban Missile Crisis, hell, no Russo-Ukrainian war today. You let two wild dogs fight each other, then take out the winner. Even without the Bomb we could turn their cities to ash by 1944. Now then, considered all of that.

[@JakeLOL1111]

@EDWARD RICHARDSON These kind of things can get heated and I get that what I said might have come off a bit flippant. Really wasn't my intention brother, I was just saying what came to mind mind. I don't want to heat this up anymore, I'm curious about your position. I've got to say, I'm really not the biggest history buff when it comes to ww2, so I'd love to learn more about what you're saying. Though I will just say plainly I think your response is a bit disproportionate for what I said, I had no ill intentions, just a remark. just some thoughts that came to mind though: So you think we could have taken the Nazi's after they made those massive land grabs? And what would the Nazi's replaced the regimes on China and Russia with? if we succeeded, what would we have done with those states? I think imperial Japan invading Chinais a pretty good indication of what the Nazis would have replaced if with in the mean time. And I think Vietnam is a pretty good indication of what would have happened if America had gone over and tried to convince two populations already dead set on communism to go the other way. communism wasn't confined to Russia (and if hadn't even started in China). the spirit was all around (even if we might totally disagree with it). As for Empire, it's always been my understanding that it was going anyway, everyone knew it, no one wanted to keep it. It was always a net loss economically anyway and there has always been people in parliament (even the Tory's) who wanted to see the end of it. If you think of the world as a zero sum game like modern day China and russia just in terms of how much land you can acquire, then ok, but that was not the reason we ended up acquiring it in the first place. (ironically, if you sincerely do have the modern russian and Chinese mindset that it's all just about controlling and ruling as much as possible then we ended up having the largest formal empire the world has ever seen anyway but it's hard to read British history like that was the grand imperial strategy. it's a retty childish goal afterall.) Again, I don't know enough about ww2 to say this with any conviction. Just some immediate thoughts that came to mind when I read through that. You're opinion is a definitely novel one to me though - would love to read anyone who's defended that thesis at length. (oh and as for Powell, I have some sympathy for his arguments. but let's be clear about what his arguments were. his argument was that immigration was happening to quickly, not that it shouldn't happen at all. and certainly not that those who did immigrate and became citizen ought not to be considered Brits... we can regret the speed at which it happened and it has arguably caused cultural problems, but those immigrants are just Brits to us. Very few people here think race defines being a Brit. Our society has never really been divided on racial lines, it's always been religion and class).

[@edwardrichardson8254]

​@@JakeLOL1111 It doesn't get heated as long as you have emotional control. Lacking that, most people disappear with a tizzy. You don't write checks you can't deliver on. Ergo you don't "guarantee" the sovereignty of nations you can't defend (against the greatest land army in the world no less)... TWICE... and in the 2nd instance be ducky turning over the nation to Stalin - why the last govt to fall in WWII was the Polish govt in exile in 1990 (exiled in your country no less) when it turned its powers over to the Third Polish Republic on 22 December 1990 as the USSR was imploding. We had to set about saving your country from starving to death during the Blitz (US fed 1 in 19 Brits at the cost of thousands of Merchant Marines making the Atlantic run) and your Spitfires would not even be able to operate effectively without US high octane fuel. We rolled the Japanese forces back and did so in spite of a non-aggression pact our "ally" Stalin made with them. Were you aware of that? He had 10 divisions in Asia but did zip w/ them because - as w/ Hitler - he cut a deal so we would have our hands full w/ them. The day Nagasaki was bombed he declared war w/ them because he wanted to seize Japan and make it another North Korea but the US Navy made sure that would not happen. He was "at war" w/ Japan a laughable three weeks before they surrendered to us. Do not think anything I said was not totally lost on Churchill. He created a warplan to roll the Russians back from Germany (Operation Unthinkable) and submitted it to FDR (who died same time) but it was too little too late. Look, this was all simple. You got your asses kicked after sitting on your hands for a year, and were lucky your entire army was not wiped out at Dunkirk (I'd have killed every single one of them, Hitler was partial to British, as was the Kaiser -Queen Victoria's grandson- before him). When Hitler declared war on Russia in June '41, you let those two dogs fight it out, then bomb the exhausted winner into oblivion. China recently released the official figures for the number who died under Mao's Great Famine: 40 million. Would be nice to have no Red China and the entire thing now be essentially one big Taiwan, free, democratic, and not arming itself to the teeth. Not to mention never having to fight the Cold War, and the hot wars that entailed (Korea, Vietnam, communist coups in Latin America) Allying w/ Stalin was the greatest foreign policy disaster of the 20th century. 3 American presidents prior to FDR did not even recognize the USSR as a legitimate state, FDR was a fellow traveler whose admin was riddled w/ spies and he looked the other way on the Holodomor (Stalin's starving millions of peasants) to reverse 16 years of American foreign policy. Oh, the other benefit of defeating the USSR in WWII... no MidEast Crisis as no Israel. It was Stalin who armed Israel to push back the Arabs initially, he was under the impression it would be a communist state, why there's a portrait of him in every other Kibbutz there. Patton was saying all of this in Paris shortly before he died. Said if we didn't roll the Russians back we would have to fight them in "the next war" and that it would cost "6 million lives" and that we didn't come to Europe just to give it to Stalin. Wise words.

[@halo3soap114]

You know Mashall, you kind of have anime eyes.

[@marshallkosloff8019]

It’s my burden as a content creator

[@aaronrey2658]

Excellent Interview !

[@CIDteenie]

This gave me such a deeper perspective

[@larrygee8029]

Plz tell us more about the long agrarian march by mou.

[@TheMightyMurse1917]

Extremely interesting, thanks Marshall!

[@nealrutgerskid]

This was a good interview and video.

[@Idontwannahandle]

:)

[@freda7436]

Great episode, thanks.