God’s Divine Council

[@houseofwool]

Great message Patrick! I’ve been pondering Job a lot lately and it’s so fascinating when viewed as a metaphor of the whole Earth. Even looking at Christ’s original 12. He surrounded himself with the spectrum of humanity and not a bunch of “yes” men. There’s something profound about this concept. Great work and keep em coming!

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

Thank you. God works totally different from the way we have been taught in church.

[@DangerMountain]

👏👏👏 So much I want to say, but I love the direction the LORD is taking you.

[@DangerMountain]

In order to avoid a possible deletion from a link, I'll just steer you to the video you've got to check out... KZbin channel: Jonathan Kleck Video title: The SCRIPTURE You MUST KNOW to UNDERSTAND The BIBLE... Upload date: Jul 18 Be sure to have a bible concordance ready as you verify for yourself. Peace and Grace!

[@Avenger24601]

Glad to see a new episode. Thanks!

[@Seek_Ye_Shall_Find]

Extremely insightful. Thank you.

[@petervincent3560]

I loved this video. Excellent!

[@zrosix2240]

I find it so odd how you drop a video about a topic almost immediately after I make a personal discover about the exact same topic. Just yesterday I was having a conversation with myself about satan in the Bible because a friend mentioned Lucifer. However I look at the ONLY mention of Lucifer in the entire Bible, and it’s in Isaiah clearly speaking about a human king, not a vision of a pre mortal fallen angel. The more you look the more you realize satan is rarely mentioning a specific being, in any canonized scripture. The most blatant mention of someone we may call satan is in Moses 4 where it mentions an angel that wanted to replace God as the redeemer of men. The same story is in abraham chapter 3. But it actually says “the satan,” which could be translated as “the adversary” Satan is also mentioned as an individual in D&C 76:25, and 29:36.

[@MarkHigbee]

@zrosix2240 see Revelation 12:13 John mentions the old serpent the devil as an individual, also called a dragon. In Isaiah 14, he uses the story of Satan's exile or the Son of the morning to tell what happens to the king of Assyria. This is also a reference to an individual. The son of the morning is singular and he fell from heaven, which matches Revelation 12.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

I have been thinking about doing a video about Satan for a while. I think almost certainly there is not a single Satan like we believe, however there could be a class of beings that would fit that mold. In Hebrew at least, there is no Satan, but just a general category. There may be a primary instigator, that we could accurately call Satan. I am not really sure.

[@בנימין.עירמבצרת.כהנים]

Patrick, have you studied out the origin of the translation of the word Lucifer? There is lots of great research on it, and is similar to your assessment of the word Satan. Lucifer is actually a mistranslation and does not appear in Isaiah 14:12; it was mistranslated into Latin, from the Hebrew: הילל בן שחר (helel ben Shahar). Helel can be translated as "praised," or "prideful" among other possibilities, and ben Shahar is "son of Shahar" (Shahar was the cannanite god of the Dawn, son of the God of the Sky (who became El) before Israel was fully taught the concept of One God. Though they were lesser gods as you masterfully explain here) So 'prideful son of the dawn' is a better translation. Though many translate helel as Day Star, as below in the ESV version: "How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn!" This is MUCH more accurate than translating it into a proper noun and embodying evil into a specific being named Lucifer, as Isaiah didn't do that. He was talking to the King of Babylon anyway. If you study the Greek, Phosphoros is what people think is describing Lucifer, as phosphoros means bearer of light. Again, study the original Greek manuscripts, and Peter actually uses Phosphoros as a title for Jesus. Jesus is also called the Morning Star by John in Revelation. So there is another mistranlation, and hence misunderstanding, of Satan and who or what that evil force even is. Lastly and most importantly, Jesus didn't teach any doctrine on this either, but called a man, Peter, Satan when he was out of step with Him; God. John called the number of the beast the number of a man. Perhaps we've desired to embody Satan/Lucifer into a being to pass the blame somewhere else, when we ourselves become Satan's tools and image when we allow darkness to be embodies within us

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

Yes I have looked into that a little bit. I doubt there is a singular "Satan" person. The adversary role may also be a divinely appointed role by God. There is so much that we don't know.

[@בנימין.עירמבצרת.כהנים]

@uncorrelatedmormonism I appreciate some of the conclusions you've come to, while still being open to more. This aligns with some things I've received from God also- essentially, God the Father is over all things and all power, both light and dark. We just don't fully understand how and it scares some because of our desire to glorify evil's role in things

[@בנימין.עירמבצרת.כהנים]

@@uncorrelatedmormonism another pitfall of self-deception for the Church of the Latter-day Saints is that they highly condemn "Lucifer's Plan" for desiring to "save everyone and become like the Most High", but that's exactly what they're doing. Trying to save every single dead person that ever lived, and all desiring to become Gods, which is another way of saying become like the Most High. What a sad level of self-deception, instead of just obeying the simple commandments that Jesus taught to become one with the Father

[@MarkHigbee]

This video reminds me of Isaiah 59:10 We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if we had no eyes: we stumble at noonday as in the night; we are in desolate places as dead men. Your anger against church leaders is causing you to grope for the wall like a blind man. 1. The council in Psalm 82 matches LDS doctrine on the pre-existance. The gods were told they would die like men or be exiled. A third of the hosts of heaven were exiled or died like men. This also matches Revelation 12:9. The Dragon or serpent Satan was cast out of heaven to the earth with his angels. You conviently left out Isaiah 14, which describes Satan being cast out or exiled. 2. The church doesn't teach that the only gods in Abraham are the ones in the Godhead. They do say that the Godhead was there, which makes perfect sense. But again, they don't teach that the gods were exclusively the Godhead only. 3. You blame the church for your own limited or simplified views or understanding of doctrine. 4. The Book of Job actually conflicts with the doctrine that Satan, the old serpent, was exiled to the earth in Revelation 12. The old serpent is mentioned in the Book of Genesis long before the book of Job on the Earth. Satan was exiled before the book of Job, so a conversation with God was most likely a teaching aid or parable. Job is mentioned in the D&C, so he was a real person, while the conversation between God and Satan seems very unlikely since he was cast out or exiled to the earth. 5. The Book of Abraham simply adds more details to why a 3rd of the hosts of heaven were cast out and why God told the elohim or lesser gods they would die like men.

[@gregjackson141]

Perhaps your should apply Isaiah 59:10 to yourself.

[@MarkHigbee]

@gregjackson141 Feel free to explain how Psalm 82 with the gods in council who were told they would be exiled doesn't fit with Revelation 12 when a 3rd of the hosts were exiled. Feel free to explain how it doesn't match LDS theology. Ready go!

[@bigguns126]

❤❤❤❤ I love your comment! Will you read mine? It is so obvious that There was a need for a restoration!

[@zrosix2240]

Your interpretation of the conversation between God and Satan is likely based on language ignorance / mistranslation. Thé hebrew word used for Satan in job translates to “the adversary” or “the challenger” it was someone among them that was challenging what God was saying. It was a description rather than a title. The word Satan has been used throughout the Hebrew Bible to describe characters that weren’t the devil himself

[@MarkHigbee]

@zrosix2240 I realize the word Satan is not a Hebrew word. It seems unlikely that the old serpent who was cast out of heaven to the earth and spoke with Eve in the garden could enter again into heaven and have a conversation with God. This is why many believe that it is a parable or teaching aid in Job and not literal.

[@duncansh81]

Margaret Barker has elucidated some of this for me. In addition to that has been the podcast "Ancient Traditions". Barker uses a lot of Enoch which provides a lot of background to this theological view.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

Thank you. I will look into that. The biggest person for my on this subject would be Michael Heiser.

[@zrosix2240]

I think reading the Old Testament in the perspective that this was in a monolotrous worldview makes the statements of gods apart from God make a lot more sense. You can clearly see, especially in the Pentateuch, that they believed other gods existed apart from yhwh. Never did it say these gods were not real, it said do not worship them, do not bid your allegiance to them. I’m not claiming that the pagan gods that ancient Assyrians worshipped actually exist / existed outside of manmade religion, but it provides a perspective to what these scriptures mean. It is possible that these false gods were based on real spiritual beings that fell. With the Mormon understanding that we are all the Elohim described in the Bible, which is questionable doctrine itself but for the sake of the conversation I’ll assume it, our natural “fallen nature” only makes sense to extend to the pre existence. That pre mortal humans are the Elohim exercising unjust dominion with the authority god allowed them and wished them to have. Theosis is a concept that exists within Christian orthodoxy, that we clean our corrupt natures to become one and work within Gods divine nature, so perhaps this ancient worldview could provide clarity to what the reason we’re all here for is assuming there really was a pre existence. I’ve only watched up to 5 minutes at this point btw

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

A lot of fancy words. 😊 Yes the OT understanding of God and God's kingdom is completely foreign to our own. We make the mistake in trying to understand the scriptures based on our current world view which is fundamentally different from theirs. I didn't get into this and probably will in a future video. However I firmly believe some of these pagan gods were actual divine beings that God let loose essentially. As the Book of Commandments section 4 reads, if we don't worship God then we will be turned over to Satan. Satan is not a literal being, but I believe a class of malevolent divine beings.

[@bigguns126]

Hmm. I have always understood that Latter-day Saints believe that God The father and His Son wanted us to have their glory ultimately The father wanting this and Hos son said that He would make the Sacrifice and the glory would return to th Father. So we all will share the Glory but not replace it. I think people who are not members of the Church over complicate their doctrine and there for confuse non believers and turn the astray. This church makes much more sense than any other church I’ve listens too. The “Trinity makes no sense to me. But the God head does. God the father Elohim and Jesus Christ God the Son are two glorified physical beings with glorified physical bodies. They are immortal and incorruptible. Idk what it means beyond that and I don’t think it matters. Then The Holy Ghost is a spirit. Three personages or individual beings with the same purpose and will never want any thing but love and peace. I think that’s pretty simple to understand. And we are created to se we can have glorified bodies too and have Their power to create if we so chose to follow instructions on how to become elevated individuals and becoming completely selfless and giving our will over to the Father and to trust and have faith in him. Idk if Joseph Smith is a false prophet or not but what he declares makes sense and if he was false and just trying to get people follow him wouldn’t he make it all about him? Like wouldn’t he do what most religious revolutionaries do and make the church he created named after him and tell people not follow Jesus or His words but to listen to him and his views of how he thinks God should work? I just never got that vibe from him. I mean I don’t understand all of the doctrine but I understand more that I do of any other belief. This church seems more true and believable than any other. I mean Joseph Smith claims the same dive revelations as John and Paul. As Aragon and Mosses. And why does the Bible leave so much blankeness and un clearness in it? Like if children are innocent then why do so many other Christians believe in baptizing babies? Do you spare the Rod or reframe from discipline your children? If worshiping pagan symbols is so wrong the why did Mosses tell his followers to look at one in orders to be saved from the firery serpents? I asked a Latter-day Saint Bishope these questions and I got andwers that actually made sense. Now I know there are many other religious people that can answer these who r not later day saints but that just proves the point that at the end of days true believers will gather and believe in the truth and I just think that churches like the LDS church is a beacon for the gathering of true believers and so many peoel today who claim to be believers are like what Jesus said in Matthew when said that “ Many will claim my name and cast out demons in my name but yet I they really never knew me” I think the Moanstream Christians are the wolves in sheep’s clothing and not the other way around. Yea there have been cooky people just trying to get a cult following and trying to decide people but it really doen not seem like the LDS church fits this discription. lol I only know because I started investigating this church because I first suspected them to be wolves in sheep’s clothing. Most real. Cults will tell you “ follow me and my teachings and sacrifice your self to defeat my enemies and you will receive treasures in heaven” but this church teaches “ follow Christ and sacrifice your self for your neighbor and my enemy for doing so is the Lords will for we all are God children and doing so you will find peace in the end” Jesus sacrificed Himself for his enemies. And The LDS church does the same. The teach their followers to sacrifice them selves for the people that hate them for that is what Christ did.

[@TheOGProtestantMormon]

They are coming back. Look at the epics and mythologies. That’s them. And Satan’s crews.

[@jpdiscovers8670]

This is what happens when you teach the book of mormon as fact . you cannot understand the errors in the Bible until you learn the book of mormon. My question is how many errors do you have to have in the book of mormon and all it's teachings before you figure it out?

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

In this case, what is an error. The Bible and Book of Mormon agree.

[@user-ql2id3ml3i]

your ISV is totally different than the KJV so this looks like your interpretation.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

Read the hebrew and then we can figure out who is right and who is wrong.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

So many people are completely unwilling to think. The hebrew agrees, the ISV agrees, the ESV agrees, the NLT agrees, the BSB agrees, the AMP agrees, the CSP agrees, the HCSB agrees, the GNT agrees. Yet somehow I am wrong. The KJV was revolutionary for its time. However it was created by people who where not native speakers, who didn't understand the culture, and who already had preconceived ideas about God.

[@zrosix2240]

If the KJV was so perfect Joseph smith wouldn’t have found it so necessary to rewrite it. Odd how a lot of Joseph’s rewrites end up in modern translations? Such as removing “without cause” from Jesus’ statement about being angry with your brother.

[@TheOGProtestantMormon]

@@uncorrelatedmormonism. ISV has a lot missing and is politically translated. I noticed these verses are way off even from the Geneva Bible.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

@@TheOGProtestantMormon Depending on the verse, BibleHub generally shows they all agree. The KJV is typically a bad translation. It does however have poetic language.

[@bigguns126]

Nothing was left up to the divine councils own discretion but it was up for them to inquire of the Lord. It had nothing to do with their own opinions. See that is were you lack faith. It’s no different than saying that the priests that Mosses ordained or Aaron ordained made choices based on their carnal options and desires. You have to have faith that Gods divine councils is dive and they recieve divine revelation. Otherwise why would believe even the old had divine revelation? Scripture tells us that God will have divine counsel with his people even untill the end. How else could there be prophets in the last days just like ancient revelations from old prophets like John and Isiah tell us?

[@MarkHigbee]

@bigguns126 In the scriptures, there is a council or assembly of the church of the Firstborn. These are they who receive celestial glory and are begotten or born into eternal life. (D&C 93:21-22)And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn; 22 And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn. (D&C 76:54-59) They are they who are the church of the Firstborn. 55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things- 56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory; 57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son. 58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God- 59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

1 Kings 22 disagrees with you.

[@MarkHigbee]

@uncorrelatedmormonism In 1 Kings 22, God had the final say. He asked for a volunteer and sent one. I think the pattern of divine councils is: God informs the lesser ones of his plans, and the lesser can agree to them or not. He also selects from volunteers to carry out his plans.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

@@MarkHigbee This is not fully true. 1 Kings 22 says God wants an outcome, not a plan. The plan is left up to the Divine Council. Genesis 6 also suggests that the divine council members somehow came to earth and corrupted things. Divine council members are not a passive thing that just does exactly what they are told.

[@MarkHigbee]

@uncorrelatedmormonism Yes, some rebelled and were exiled to die like men because they rejected God. I haven't found any scriptures that say God agreed to do what a council decided, but I have seen some where some rebelled and some accepted to do his will. This pattern also matches Jesus teaching that he can only do the will of the Father, and we should do the same.

[@TENACIOUSTHORNLEON]

JOSEPH SMITH WAS TOO young 🌱 to TEST THE SPIRITS. ----- TENACIOUS 💢🔥😡🔥💢 THORN LEON

[@TheOGProtestantMormon]

9:18 meh. They presented themselves to the Lord. But in heaven or a meetup? He was cast out. Christ said so like lightning! Super myopic video. No way satan goes to heaven in any way.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

You are assuming this based on your Mormon bias. Satan may not actually have been cast out yet. This may be at the final judgement. There is a lot we don't understand.

[@primopierre]

This is what happens when you use writings apart from the canon, and then rely on translations that skews towards what you believe in order to justify the inconsistency.

[@uncorrelatedmormonism]

What do you mean? Do you mean the KJV is the only correct translation? Have you ever read the OT in Hebrew? Read Psalms 82 in Hebrew and then tell me who is right and who is wrong.