🐃.380 ACP+P VS .38 Special+P in Compact Guns - Buffalo Bore JHP Ammunition

[@GunSam]

For whatever reason, a lot of people incorrectly believe that because most mainstream .38 Special+P rounds are really weak, that somehow Buffalo Bore is nothing more than a dangerously loaded .357 Magnum load in a .38 Special case. This is far from the truth, rather Buffalo Bore loads them very close to max pressure, which produces velocity like this with the RIGHT powder. If this were not the case, then when I shot a hundred of these through my S&W J-Frame aluminum alloy framed snubby, it would have blown the barrel right off the frame. When a mainstream ammo company uses the same powder and powder charges that they use for 9mm, and put it in a .38 Special case to save time and money - what you get is a fast burning low pressure, pressure spike which is not efficient in such a long case like a revolver case. While it gets the job done and propels a bullet pretty well at the 18,000 or so PSI they are at (over 17,000 PSI means it has to be listed as +P under American SAAMI spec), than they do it. When a more appropriate powder for a revolver case is used, achieving numbers like this around the max charge limit isn't that big of deal (btw European CIP max pressure for "standard pressure .38 Special" is 22,000 PSI - ie Fiocchi, Prvi Partizan etc). So more or less what you have is ammo that is no more pressure than foreign .38 Special standard pressure, but loaded in such a way and with the right powder, to get the maximum power from the pressure limits. IT IS NOT .357 MAGNUM IN A .38 SPECIAL+P CASE, so please stop believing this and spreading that misinformation if you were one to do so.

[@Fudmottin]

I really wish there was a consumer affordable way to measure chamber pressure. Many firearms can handle more than their rated pressure. Often they are tested with proof loads that exceed standard pressure to make sure they won't fail. It would also be nice to tune hand loads for barrel length. That jet of high pressure gas from the muzzle could easily account for the majority of recoil.

[@327SixShooter]

Hey, I know it's not really related to this video, but I noticed in your other videos how often your lcp jams. I have an lcp2 as well that did that. It was such a big flaming turd. It was rare to make it through an entire magazine without having some kind of malfunction. Either a stove pipe or sometimes the mag would just eject itself from the recoil of being fired. No way I would have carried it and trusted it to be used for self defense in that condition. But I just got it back last week after sending it back to ruger. It must have been pretty defective because they replaced the slide assembly as well as the frame assembly, (that sounds like almost the whole gun). They claimed that they fired 30 rounds through it without a malfunction after doing that. I fired about 50 through it the other day and didn't have one either. I still wanna put like at least a couple hundred rounds through it though before I would consider carrying it. Just wondering if you ever tried sending it back to ruger to fix because yours seems to jam almost as much as mine did and that's not normal (even though it seems to affect a lot of lcp's).

[@Fudmottin]

@@327SixShooter IMO, the Ruger LCP2 would be a near perfect carry gun if it was perfectly reliable. The one issue I would have is grabbing that tiny grip from a place of concealment. S&W's larger, fewer rounds on tap, 442/642 fixes that with the fact that you can install any grips so that you're able to get good purchase and have the perfect trigger reach. There is a price premium too, but not as bad as an M&P340 or 340PD. The LCR in 327 Federal gives you an extra round for the full six. The 380 ACP is an effective round. For me, it is a matter of trust. I don't know what Sam will have to say. But trust really does matter in a daily carry.

[@327SixShooter]

@@Fudmottin my ruger .327 lcr is my most carried gun as well. However, I got the lcp2 as an option for when I need to be very discreet about carrying and for exercising/bicycling since its so small and light.

[@Fudmottin]

@@327SixShooter Not many guns beat the LCP2 for that. Maybe the KelTec P32.

[@robertl6196]

For God's sake S&W, bring the 3" K-frames in .38 and .357 back into production.

[@nothim7321]

They have them in the model 19

[@JJ_SDWR]

I have the 3 inch Model 60 PRO, a J-Frame, but it's sweet. Not a huge difference in felt recoil between J & K frame when you're shooting them full house 357 loads.

[@pecosjane]

S&W Model 10, 3 inch barrel, No I.L.S.! Oh, please S&W; I'll buy one. I bet they'd sell a bunch of them.

[@CarolinaRimfire]

A 3" model 65 is the ideal carry revolver for me. Too bad those dont exist... I almost bought a 3" Colt King Cobra a couple months ago, but I keep hearing terrible things about QC and durability.

[@cameronnorton5898]

They got it, it's the Model 66 combat magnum.

[@charlesmudd9834]

★ Got to respect that .38. Appreciate the video. I do like .380s, too.

[@alexandermfernandez9283]

That's about the best performing 125gr. .38special+P ammunition I've seen tested . I'm definitely ordering a few boxes .Thanks Gun Sam , great video as always !

[@GunSam]

Thanks a lot!

[@guardianminifarm8005]

38 wins big. Impressive 38 offering. Thank you.

[@williamwatson4625]

There's a reason why law enforcement in America never adopted the .380 auto as their primary sidearm.

[@adamsaylor7427]

Very impressive results from that .38+P . Keep up the great work Sam!

[@bobcatforever3485]

GS. Another good video. Thanks for sharing. I've started loading some .38 Spl. lately but have been shooting them thru my .357 until I get the load settled just to be on the safe side. Take care.

[@GunSam]

Thank you. I have loaded a few tens of thousands of .38 Special over the past 10 years. I used to do the same thing.

[@bobcatforever3485]

@@GunSam Thanks for your comment. Have a good weekend.

[@Fudmottin]

There is no doubt in my mind that those 38s were loaded beyond SAAMI specs. The 38s are doing exactly what I want them to do. That is ammo I would carry. As for Taurus, I'm not sure what good a life time warrantee is when it isn't honored. Good video.

[@GunSam]

Taurus also recently downgraded their warranty to match S&W. Only covers "original" owner as where Taurus used to be lifetime warranty no matter what.

[@Fudmottin]

@@GunSam I'm sure Taurus produces a good product from time to time. But given their reputation, and the condition of my first firearm which is a Taurus, I don't think I'll be buying any more of them.

[@WhoWouldWantThisName]

My first handgun was a PT-92, essentially a Berretta 92F knock-off, and it was a great gun, very accurate and reliable. They do make great guns but also some sub-standard ones too unfortunately. Also that gun I bought back in the late `80s so they may have gone downhill in their quality control. Not honoring their warrantee is inexcusable to me. Downgrading their warrantee coverage is an admission of their quality degrading too.

[@Fudmottin]

@@WhoWouldWantThisName My first firearm was a Taurus 669 stainless steel 357 Magnum revolver with six inch compensated barrel. I still have it. I would feel bad pushing it onto someone else, so I'm keeping it. It works in single action, but double action is a bear because of the crappy sear they used. The outside looks like a S&W K-Frame, complete with canted barrel (I was a complete noob when I bought it). The insides are totally different from S&W construction. I have limited familiarity with the PT-92. I have a Beretta 92A1. When I was customizing it, I remember the parts all saying they were NOT compatible with the PT-92. There are some external differences in addition to the internal differences. It's great that you got a good one.

[@GunSam]

@@Fudmottin The thing about Taurus, is they aren't great...but like many cheap things in life, they offer janky options that others don't offer (at least at one point didn't offer) like their original .410 revolvers, and their .380 ACP revolvers....weird stuff normal people don't want but can be cool. I'm buying one of their TX 22's soon, because you just can't really get a full size polymer .22 LR with 16+1 without the gun being weird. The Taurus is a normal sized pistol for 300 bucks and rated well.

[@justusupnorth8262]

I have some of that BB .380, it does quite a number on water jugs compared to the standard loads.

[@kenlastname9393]

For the Taurus shooting left, you could try to turn the barrel clockwise a bit, if it will move some it should help.

[@MannixKnives]

Those are some INSANELY well performing .38 specials, like holy crap, and out of a 3'' barrel. Would love to see how they'd do out of a snubby. Now those .380 ACP's, on the other hand, damn. That's some very, very sad underpenetration. No thanks. Great video, as always!!

[@JeffreyCotle]

You videos are awesome. Good work.😊

[@GunSam]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

[@lens7859]

Good stuff

[@WhoWouldWantThisName]

I think if BB were to use a different bullet in that .380, such as one that doesn't expand or deform as easily, they would see deeper penetration and better jacket retention, overall improved performance. It's just not solid enough for that velocity. The bullet in the .38 however could stand to be a bit softer IMO. If that round expanded a bit more it might be a contender for best .38 Spl +P for SD.

[@GunSam]

This .38 Special was supposed to have a Gold Dot bullet, that's why I bought it. They simply lied. I have seen weird stuff from time to time with BB, like the first 9mm+P+ JHP ammo I got was loaded with non expanding Hornady HAP bullets rather than the XTP. But a basic XTP for the .380 would have worked fine, or if they used a 95 gr instead of a 90 gr with a basic JHP this would have done well too, but a 90 gr soft bullet like that was a bad choice.

[@DinoNucci]

Thanks Captain Obvious

[@magnum_0710]

@GunSam I've been saying for a while now something like a jacketed soft point would be the best option for a 380 defense round. Just enough soft lead exposed to give some expansion and stop over penetration while simultaneously doing more damage than a fmj. Think about Federals 357 mag JSP, it gets some expansion while penetrating deep. If they could apply the same concept to 380 it would be perfect.

[@WhoWouldWantThisName]

@@DinoNucci Bad day huh? Sorry to get on your last nerve.

[@iamnobody9542]

That 38 is the same as a 357 125 golden saber in my 3" SP101!! Ok, those are 'loaded down' for small 357's - the Rem 125 SJ HP's do 1300 even. Still, for a 38!! Wow! Jerry

[@magnum_0710]

Buffalo Bore also has a 380 95 grain JHP but I cant remember if its standard or +p. I know they only make it in one of the two. Id really like to see what their 95 grain can do, I prefer heavier bullets whenever possible. Ive actually been carrying a 100 grain 380 fmj as of late.

[@BuckeyeBallistics]

Ahhhh crap. You're never gonna hear the end of it from the "there is no such thing as .380 +p" guys 😂

[@danoneill2846]

Good test I would use 9mm standard in that size auto

[@frankhinkle5772]

Thanks, good comparison. i do wish that you were having better luck with Taurus and the 856 3" but they continue to disappoint.

[@guynall4025]

I carry my bodyguard and shield 380 ez with federal 99 grain xtp so far so good with both

[@lanedexter6303]

Gotta wonder if that Buffalo Bore load would be appropriate for my bathrobe pocket gun, an old German made PPK. Quick expanding .380 might do the trick when establishing fire superiority with midnight marauding raccoons.

[@GunSam]

I will say this, when I was a teenager and growing up on a farm, I was the one to dispatch raccoons with a .22 rifle. I always figured that this did well even though it took a few shots. As an adult I was walking through my parent's barn and a racoon showed up. I pulled my .38 snub loaded with 110 gr Hornady Critical Defense+P. It was nothing like growing up experiences. I body shot it and it dropped dead instantly, no kicking or anything. So I can say, bullet weights in the .380 ACP range would indeed work well. BTW the bullet didn't even exit which was surprising. It was against a wood beam so it's possible the bullet did start to exit and bounce back in it's body.

[@lanedexter6303]

That’s what we want, quick expansion.👍@@GunSam

[@gregoryoppenheimer99]

Shame that Taurus has been such a let down on that particular, and replacement gun. I’ve had good luck with the snub nose ultra lite. Do you mind sharing the exact model 856 so we can avoid it lol? Been thinking about a 3” defender or 3” Toro in .357 from them. Maybe put a larger front sight on and try to black out the rear slots? Maybe a bad batch of gutter milling has them off center?

[@GunSam]

it's just a 3" 856 stainless

[@davidbarnes7711]

Never owned a Taurus and likely never will.

[@callaseter4811]

I called Taurus customer service somewhere around 2012. I’ll let y’all know when they respond.

[@mopartony7953]

⁠@gunsam new episode suggestion: test Barry’s copper plated HP 9mm handloading projectiles. Although sold as practice ammo, they do promote expansion performance. Be curious to see terminals of this and standard FN/RN copper plated. Unique YT content opportunity. Clicks will be incalculable. Game changer for your channel. People want to know! ;)

[@mattspriggs5945]

MAN...the .38 SPL! I'm saving this video for the 9mm fanboys 😅

[@GunSam]

9mm fanboys are funny. Had a conversation last night with one over my last video with .357 Magnum VS .357 Sig, and his main point was that 9mm+P is just as powerful as .357 Sig. I told him I test ammo constantly and 9mm+P in my 5" barrel is anywhere from 400 to 450 ft lbs energy as where in my 5" .357 Sig pistol, the energy numbers are generally 550 to 650 ft lbs energy, and that's just facts. They also like to beat on the .38 Special. The 9mm fanboy has some good things to work with, like that capacity is good, ballistics are pretty good and reliability of 9mm is better than most calibers - but they NEVER go there. They just claim .38 Special+P is is "150 ft lbs energy" and that 9mm+P is 'just as powerful as .357 Magnum'. There's very few sensible 9mm fanboys.

[@mattspriggs5945]

@@GunSam 😂😂 WOW I thought I was the only one. Just last week I was informed that a 10mm is better than 44 mag (ballistically speaking) and when I asked for examples, ZERO! I'm finding in my testing on water jugs, cinder blocks, etc energy is a great indicator AT TIMES, but man, the lowly .38 SPL that Grandpa carried with a 158 grain lead round nose deserves more respect lol

[@garylewis3641]

What's your guess how fmj 380s would do on that test? More penetration for sure, good video!

[@GunSam]

Depends on the bullet shape and power level. Low end FMJ do pretty good, they will yaw and not overpenetrate much, if at all. If it's a flat point it will penetrate to maybe 25".

[@garylewis3641]

@@GunSam ok, thanks

[@JoeBilda]

Do you still prefer to concealed carry the LCR 327 over the 605?

[@joshuaferia8972]

Bro can you please do more tests with .40 S&W and short barrel 380 +P acp

[@lynch6642]

I would just stick to the ammunition John Moses Browning intended these guns for.... At the time it was full metal jacket, 45 1911 and the .380, Now i do use the underwood extreme penetrators, almost the same thing.... Throw the hollow points away for the 380 and the 1911 in 45.....

[@GunSam]

Yeah but for self defense, time and time again a good hollow point has been shown to be very effective, much more than ball ammo. I could understand with .380 ACP, but .45 ACP can easily penetrate and expand with the right bullet and be significantly more effective.

[@mopartony7953]

I don’t see buffalo bore offering that 38+p load anymore.

[@mack460]

Whether it’s a .380 or .38 special, you still got a hole in ya’!🤷🏾‍♂️

[@chrisgabbert658]

👍😊

[@livincincy4498]

Maybe try having your Taurus shot thru a Randsome Rest to see where it hits ? I think it is your hand not the gun. It is too small for your grip. This is the problem with buying a gun. We never know if we are a good fit together!

[@GunSam]

I have the identical grip and grip frame on my 605. That 605 shoots point of aim.

[@JoeBilda]

That's a shame about the 856. I was considering it until I saw all the trouble you had with Taurus. What do you think of the Charter Arms professional 3 inch 32 H&R Mag? Thanks.

[@GunSam]

I don't have any experience with Charter Arms myself.

[@JoeBilda]

thanks for the reply.

[@merlemorrison482]

Would a non +p 38 have been a better comparison?

[@3Pillers]

👍

[@elijahbrooks8589]

Is the gutter notch cut straight and square

[@tonykirby9574]

Would say trigger control but sights probably crooked after all its a taurus 😅

[@callaseter4811]

I called Taurus customer service somewhere around 2012. I’ll let y’all know when they respond with an answer.

[@geraldsmith5164]

Did TAURUS get all the problems with the 856 solved?

[@GunSam]

No

[@fairnheight3673]

If at all, how much more damage will ammo like this do to the 856 Ultra-lite vs the regular weight?

[@GunSam]

The main thing is, alloy framed guns like anything called ultra-lite or airweight, if you fire a lot of these type of rounds, the frame connecting points like cylinder crane, screws etc will have a bunch of wear on them, where steel frames and parts won't have any wear. So hot rounds like this need to be done in moderation. A 20 round box won't do much to an alloy gun, but a hundred rounds probably would have it start to be looking beat up.

[@fairnheight3673]

@@GunSam that’s good to know, I wasn’t planning using rounds like this often anyways, mainly because $50 for a box of 20. As of now I’ve only shot rounds in the 210-240 fpe range through it, and it’s already pretty rough on the palm of the hand.

[@jing1052]

I have had terrible time with turrus service myself! I won't buy another one! I tell there customer service that and they don't seem to care so no more turus for me!!

[@dangerman007]

The .380 would be a great round against a skinny attacker, maybe...I'll pass. The .38 is a very underrated round.

[@kc0lif]

great video very informative. i found out there's a 38 special +p+ by federal & winchester may hafta use 357 gun for those rounds i wasn't sure if you heard of them.

[@GunSam]

I have heard of similar loads, like the Treasury Loads etc.

[@tommcqueen3145]

🙂👍

[@bryangrote8781]

Wow that .38 load is something else! .38 Special +P? Nope. More like.... .38 Special +P+++? .38 Extra Special? .38 Light Magnum? .38 Maximum? I dunno, but definitely more than "+P" lol.

[@GunSam]

There's no way for me to know if it's above +P level, but it's very do-able within normal specs to load a round like this within pressure. My own hand load data of 125 gr XTP 5.0 gr TiteGroup shows 18,700 PSI and it pushes about 1,000 FPS in a 3". CIP specs have standard pressure .38 Special at 21,400 PSI. Not really unobtainable within specs. What I think it is, is MOST .38+P rounds are loaded poorly, giving the false idea ammo like this is way above it's potential.

[@mopartony7953]

⁠

[@progunliberal]

I will say, dumping all that energy in probably 3-4 inches of actual tissue would not be pleasant. But for raw penetration, this 380 definitely underperformed. You've had 380 go further in out of pocket guns.

[@876mpr]

Do people not know that .380 runs 1500 psi more than .38 Special +P? Doesn’t really matter, case capacity is more important than pressure.

[@GunSam]

SAAMI spec for .380 ACP is 21,500 PSI max. For .38 Special+P SAAMI has it at 20,000 PSI max and CIP (Europe) has .38 Special at 22,000 PSI max.

[@arnoldcohen1250]

years ago a good gunsmith would try rotating a barrel shooting R or L and if that failed they were known to smack it with a mallet!! I've read about this many times but have NO personal experience with that claim. You might want to ask someone locally since Taurus has proven unhelpful.

[@paulscountry456]

XTP is a poor choice for defence with so many better out their and it better be moving or they won't open, the cavity is too small and will plug easily.Its a hunting bullet.

[@GunSam]

I have had good results in my testing with XTP. I generally don't have issues with non expansion unless there's less than 200 ft lbs energy. My own .38 Special+P handloads with 125 gr XTP at 900 FPS expanded pretty well even through denim.

[@rangetime6779]

The 38 Special wins the day. 380 was too fast for the bullet construction ..Sell your Taurus and get a similar sized Ruger SP

[@RoadTraveler]

Bump

[@JeffreyCotle]

Im a 38 spl guy. It will keep the booger man away.

[@GunSam]

I still think the .38 Special is about the best handgun cartridge out there. It's versatility is huge, light watcutters for the weak, Buffalo Bore for a normal man. It's more effective than 9mm when you hear stories of how well it worked in the past contrasted with modern body cam footage of 9mm not working so well. You cannot go wrong with .38 Special if your choice for shooting, defense, etc is a revolver.

[@RP-bx5un]

Trade it in Sam. 😊

[@GunSam]

ballistic test video. This is a point I have made in other videos. People have this tendency to ignore what the video is about, and hyperfocus on something else.

[@RP-bx5un]

@@GunSam I enjoy all of your videos. Just didn't like seeing you get screwed by Taurus. You saw the smiling face. Right? I am on your side.

[@chrisbrake7219]

Great 38, lowsy revolver! That gun needs replaced

[@-CHeWy-]

If the Taurus is giving you issues. Easiest thing is to trade in on something else or sell it, and move on. Dont be stuck with it doing ya head in. Those .38s are naaaaasty

[@-CHeWy-]

@@oblivionpro69 People do it all the time mate.

[@louieHuelsman]

Now with ur money u getting GunSam, Stop buying Taurus Wheel guns silly!!! Imagine what I could do with a Ruger or Smith or even a Colt Revolver!!!!!!

[@GunSam]

I am a little confused here. The money I get? I don't even have enough to do the testing I am already doing, so if you think I got all this money you are definitely mistaken. Also, I HAVE S&W and RUGER revolvers. I specifically bought a Taurus 856 as they are popular among my subs, so I do it for them, run Taurus guns.

[@louieHuelsman]

@@GunSam My bad figured you would be good with all the Gr8 videos u do. Was not Ment to be a diss just st I know u had so many problems with the Taurus models u could get a Ruger or smith is all.. Had lots of different name’s cause of different phones n such but was definitely in the first 100 subscribers way b4 jugg or not . TY 4 getting back at me Dont let that get u upset

[@GunSam]

@@louieHuelsman i'm not upset, i'm just clarifying things. If you have noticed, I buy a lot of things for testing that I myself as a person don't care for. So when people ask for Taurus reviews, I try to make them happen as they are inexpensive guns.

[@allenbolen9705]

Not a very good 380! Sometimes more speed equals less penetration. The 38 did well.

[@DinoNucci]

RoaR

[@somebloke13]

I might be going mad, but I have the impression that your chrono starts high on the 1st shot, then gets progressively lower on shots 2-3-4, then goes high again on shot 5. I'm sure I have seen it in other recent videos. Might be worth you having a look at at a few to see if I have gone mad, or it's an actual thing! 😋😋

[@GunSam]

There's no logical reason a chronograph would do that exactly, and while you may have seen that happen, it's coincidental. Now if it does it specifically with the revolver that could make sense as with certain ammo, each shot's recoil can cause the bullets remaining in the cylinder to creep out a little.

[@ronolson2024]

Again, the 38 Special out performed a 9mm with more ft/lbs. energy & penetration & was closer to the .357 Magnum. I wouldn't feel under gunned with the 38. Just get a different make of revolver.