3D Printer POM WHEELS - Dust or Debris??? - Tests & Analysis

[@Adam-my8qx]

My god. So many in the Ender community NEED to see this video. So many saying its just environmental dust from the room etc. No wonder they start experiencing issues relating to linear motion.

[@cozzm0AU]

The people who really believe that its dust won't trust this propaganda video though.

[@Adam-my8qx]

@@cozzm0AU Honestly tho lol

[@failswithtails]

That explains so much. I hadn't figured out what the cause was, but I'd built my own budget enclosure that should have kept out most environmental dust. I wasn't sure if it was just impurities from a spool wound in an unclean environment, or something else being produced as the printer consumed filament. Besides bed-leveling, I didn't really adjust any of the hardware after assembly, and I just assumed everything else had been pre-tuned. I guess I'll take a look later tonight to adjust.

[@BxKRs]

Great info, thank you. Just looked at my y axis wheels and they are getting really chewed up. This video confirmed my issue, thanks for pointing me in the right direction!

[@arminth]

With correctly adjusted wheel pressure, you won't get that wear on the wheels after several hours. Still, there will be a build up of dust looking similar to this due to the static charge on the POM wheels. It will look similar but when wiping it off, there is no groove on the wheels like you are showing. Having grooves like this is a clear sign of overtightning of the eccentric nut (as Rui also mentions!). Tension should be set so that the wheels still can be turned by hand (even though rubbing against the profile) without having wobble on the carriage.

[@ModelLights]

' still can be turned by hand (even though rubbing against the profile) without having wobble on the carriage.' Precisely, you want good smooth linear motion, the maximum that the bearings etc can provide. Overtightening destroys bearings, it does get a bit better results for a short while but your printer is headed for doom. Bearings are point contact kind of devices, and you have a bearing every so often, not a perfect circle. So the bearings make a polygon to ride in the grooves, not a circle. Over tighten the bearings and you bring the outer groove within the actual circle arc of the bearings, in the play between two of the bearings. Then when the bearing turns and is forced to go over that peak 'corner' of the 'polygon' of one of the bearings, you're putting tremendous excessive pressure on that point contact. IOW you highly wear the bearings and grooves. If you understand drive systems and have been doing steppers etc since around 1982, this is old hat.. The precision is set by the precision of the items, gaining extra by over tightening will not last long. If you need more precision then higher precision items are the only long term solution. That said the bearings etc are fairly cheap. You can get the extra precision, and simply consider them a wear item, and replace them every month or few months. That's perfectly fine as long as you understand the trade off and take on the added maintenance. Correctly tensioned items will last a long time, my 4 year old CR-10 is still very smooth and accurate, my wheels and belts are all way looser than most people would even consider, but the play is low. But I've been doing drive systems for 40 years or so so I understand the sweet spot and always set everything right at it.

[@MM-oh3zs]

Show the proof. They guy created excellent video, now you keep saying same stuff that others without ANY PROOF. Show the proof or do not speak as an expert.

[@arminth]

@@MM-oh3zs any other problems? I have explained everything and I am doing the things I explained since now then 2 years. Still on the first set of wheels on Z. I also have converted X an Y to linear rails and honestly, no difference in print quality. But no dust collection anymore.

[@53Ericd]

Great video. Thank you for making it. However, it causes me to have more questions that answers. Why are these wheels designed to have an interference fit in place of matching the 45° angle? Would matching the 45° angle cause higher friction? Is there an ideal angle and material?

[@MM-oh3zs]

Those are just poorly manufactured parts that were never designed to sustain constant load for X hours per day.

[@jimbobbyrnes]

Creality is cheap Chinese overrated crap. most ender users need to upgrade or replace parts weekly. just do the math when replacing parts and you realize that the parts are twice more expensive to replace than buying a new Chinese printer. Chinese parts are made with sticks and stones with copied designs by cavemen.

[@EyebrowsMahoney]

@@jimbobbyrnes Let's be real. Most ender users have no idea what they're doing, let alone how to do something properly. You give them a better printer and it's going to turn out the same exact way. Period.

[@A7Rc]

nope they shoul not be matched, its intentional, wheels are rotate at same angular speed but outer regions are do more distance than inner regions, if both the wheel and profiles had same angle and perfect surface match, lets say jut middle section will try to go 10mm distance, but outer regions will try to go 11 mm, and the regions closer to the center of wheels will try to go 9 mm, so the surface will constantly fight each other and friction will be much higher then it will lead more heat and more abbrassion,and erratic unstable behavior, sometime outer areas will grip and wheel will go faster and sometime inner areas will grip and wheel will go slover. so perfectly matching wheels will perform very badly on agular surfaces. so the people who gives creppy posts for this reason they dont know a shet about surface friction dynamics. Im not here to defend creality but some people wish to buy a ferrari with a price of focus, well dont hold your breath. Most of people who are into this hobby, they have seen it somewhere and want to give it a try and they dont even know if they will like it or not. So you can not expect people to just go and buy very expensive machine from the start unless they dont have shetload of money, its safe to start from small to big. My first printer was ender3 v2 and im glad i had it, learned most of the stuff about 3d printing from that cheap machine, if you really into learning and experiencing its a very good beginner choice, once you learn what it is and what not, after some fine adjustment its printing more better than double price printers sure, infact my ender 3v2 is still stock and im very happy about it after 3 years. Then bought a prusa too, yes it is a very nice machine, solid and less things to wory, but i would never suggest anyone to buy it as a first printer.

[@alexandrhrouz666]

Few days ago i found out the wheels of my bed had a worn out groowe on edges wich touch the V profile. I changed the wheels for a better ones and the print quality became a lot better

[@Mr-Axe-Tv]

I got ender 5 plus and wheels squeak a lot can I use soem lubricate with grease on them?

[@CabralWolverine]

olá eu fiz atualização firmware aguarde 30minutos e não fez a atualização e só acende o disply com o nome da Ender * ( hello I did a firmware update wait 30 minutes and it didn't update and it just lights up the display with the name of Ender . how can i solve the problem )

[@stephen240]

Very helpful video, thank you so much! I assume a little wear on the wheels is normal? I have some debris on my bed wheels but this is after dozens of hours of using it.

[@duevebravo2]

just got an ender 3 on 4 days ago. my very first print after the test print was a 52-hour run I have a very large amount of this dust collecting on the wheels looks like it's material being worn off of the guide Wheels

[@suzysheer66]

I do not think that you would want the wheel side angle to match the v-slot angle perfectly. The wear would go up, since the entire side surface of the wheel would be rubbed on the rail v-slot, as it moved. My 2 cents.

[@maluraqgamer7870]

Contact surface would spread out the wear making it even instead of digging a groove that potentially increases friction over time. Same reason you want your tires level and flat to the road in a road car.

[@suzysheer66]

@@maluraqgamer7870 I understand your reasoning and analogy, but i disagree.

[@A7Rc]

@@maluraqgamer7870 you are wrong, if the surfaces are both 45 degrees and perfect match you will have different linear speeds between the end and start of the groove, this will cause erratic behaviors on wheel speeds and uneven wear on matching surface. so this not perfect matching surfaces are intentional to lower friction

[@offensivebias3965]

I discovered this when my bed was pretty much impossible to level , it was so weird its been month since i touch level and no matter how i lower the bed , the nozzle just keeps touching the bed .

[@daltonmckee4788]

If you ensure consistent wear (no flat spots), why would it matter if the wheels are deformed? Friction fit is pretty tight. To avoid flat spots just run a gcode like your test code to "break in" the wheels. Idk just an idea.

[@ruiraptor]

Hi Dalton, the issue is that, when you have a tight grip on the wheels, they will deform in such a way that, if you leave the carriage sit for a while and then move the carriage, you will feel those "notches" or "bumps" on the wheels. They will eventually recover if you loosen the grip, but if you start a print instead, you will get issues on the prints due to those "bumps".

[@AndrewAHayes]

Which part has the wrong angle the wheels or the extrusion?

[@Joe_Galaska]

Very informative! Well done. An important part of printer maintenance should include inspection and adjustment of the wheels. It is also good to have a few new wheels as spares.

[@fuloran1]

Whats better is to shitcan the damn things and get a linear rail.

[@makedaevilmage]

My printer is about a week old but I been printing a lot. Out of the box I did not touch the wheels at all, but now the prints started to fail in a weird way ... so I tightend the wheels, but now when the bed is moving is also moves up and down ... what is wrong with my printer and how can I fix it? Thanks in advance!!

[@learnmakerepeat7140]

Great video, Rui. Well done

[@mildmannered1086]

Superb superb superb video! New out of box Ender S1 Pro has flat spots and ground out spots on the wheels lol and is throwing out debris

[@Robothut]

So why do they not make a wheel that does match the V slot profile ? Seems like they would sell all they could make .

[@EmuAGR]

After wearing for a bit, the profile would match the wheel and now they won't wear any more. It's better for them to have a bit of a tight grip than a bit of a loose grip. My wheels had some traces after tightening them and I thought it was due to wear, I'll be more careful for the next ones but I don't feel bad about this since they've adjusted perfectly to the rail now.

[@avejst]

Good points Great video as always 👍 Thanks for sharing your experience with all of us 👍😊

[@chalky3320]

Brilliant video as always rui, now how to do adjust wheels that have absolutely no esentric nuts at all. I have a enyone thinker se which does not have adjustable nuts. Looking forward to your advice on this one buddy

[@ruiraptor]

Hi Steve, some printers (small amout) don't have eccentric nuts. The manufacturer designed the carriage with the holes at a certain distance to match the profile. That is not the best choice in our opinion. One example was the TwoTrees Bluer. We did the review of the first version and did not have eccentric nuts. After our review, the manufacturer re-designed the carriages and the current version now includes eccentric nuts for adjustment of the wheels.

[@Loneman_OG]

1st I was only giving my wheels a clean and tightness check yesterday so the timing of this video was apt. If I were to swap mine out I'd be looking at 17 new & upgraded ones, then chuck in the price of good bearings and I'm wondering if cheap linear rails would be a viable alternative. Thanks for another excellent video.

[@AndrewAHayes]

I saw a video although I can't remember where and this guy bought cheap Chinese carriages for his linear rails and took them apart and cleaned the bearings and race and applied a quality grease and they were 100% better

[@Loneman_OG]

@@AndrewAHayes That's correct, quite a few have done the mod over the last few years, I think the video you're referring to was by Alex Kenis.

[@maluraqgamer7870]

Not sure if this is the same video mentioned below but its a decent test: kzbin.info/www/bejne/f2Tbfnugnr54hM0

[@vernonrandall3307]

I have two Eryone printers neither have eccentrics so I either modify or replace. So I ordered Polycarbonate wheels. Lets hope they work.

[@RPhilbo]

And did they?

[@vitorg.titodasilva6045]

Você acha que as rodas em aço inoxidável são superiores as de policarbonato?

[@ruiraptor]

Bom dia Vitor, nós não recomendamos as rodas em aço inox. Essas rodas são muito duras (o que irão causar problemas nas impressões) e vão danificar a anodização dos perfis.

[@vitorg.titodasilva6045]

@@ruiraptor Muito obrigado por esclarecer.

[@mitofun6967]

hi ) thank you for the video) so basically the grip angle of the wheel does not match to the profile- so need to correct it to the profile and the result will be better&) thank you

[@claymoresteel]

I thought these were anti rocker wheels for aggressive skates

[@kboone76]

Yes! Haha!!

[@vivaciencia9329]

Very nice video. It is the only video i saw that explain and show the problems in the wheels. Thanks for sharing

[@0ndrago10]

My printer came over tightened from the factory, had to adjust them to prevent this very issue

[@ruiraptor]

Thanks for sharing 😉

[@josephpk4878]

Is this why my Ender 5 S1 sounds like it's going down a bumpy road, when performing longer high speed travels?

[@WesleyL95]

OMG! I was trying to think of a way to describe the sound so I could look it up. I have an S1 Pro. Did you ever figure it out?

[@smartintech2]

That's why precision and tolerances are so important. I have a stock POM wheel on my brand new Ender 3 S1 that even has a bump causing bumps in the print everytime it comes in touch with the V-slot. I will replace it with a polycarbonate one and thinking of using linar bearings on rods like on the Prusa i3.

[@chrisrowles843]

Looks like I need to loosen mine up as well!

[@donrozwick7367]

love the information

[@3D_Printing]

A bit of light weight machine oil may help

[@juckendesAuge]

Works tpu printed weels well? Thank you

[@ruiraptor]

We would not recommend using printed wheels on a 3D printer. They will not be perfect circles and will affect your print quality.

[@juckendesAuge]

@@ruiraptor ok, thank you

[@radicalxedward8047]

Particle production aside, wouldn’t that just mean they’ll grind away until they perfectly match the v-slot angle and reduce in pressure so long as you don’t keep tightening it more? Wouldn’t that mean better contact in the long run or do you want minimal contact?

[@EmuAGR]

I overtightened them a bit and definitely I can see some grooves and some black dust. But after some prints they don't generate dust any more and the wear hasn't been increasing. So it really doesn't matter that much, having them loose is much worse than having them a bit tight. All wheels will wear, aluminum is much harder than rubber, it's just how physics/chemistry works.

[@Masetto93]

Thanks!

[@devastator1488]

#11. Cool as always! Just really great

[@shrikept]

I'm just wondering if, after running the printer for a while, wouldn't the wheels wear into the right shape for proper fitment? Like running in a new gearbox or motor? Does anyone have any data in consistency of the wearing down of the wheels?

[@ModelLights]

Realize this may be the correct fitment, chosen so the wheels right high in the groove instead of low in the groove, and have one point contact. If you match the angles, you have the furthest point from the center of the wheel traveling a larger circumference than the nearest, while both near and far travel the same linear distance. IOW different speeds, and higher friction. Of course no telling how this stuff was actually spec'd out, it may really have not been thought out that far initially..

[@shrikept]

@@ModelLights very good point, I'd forgotten about the varying radii.

[@tomse3135]

Very useful video. Thank you for explaining it so well!

[@jimweeks9359]

I just want to thank you for this. It confirms what I've been telling people for ages. IT'S NOT DUST! lol. I thought it was Delrin or something like that since the hardness was similar. I'll spread the word to the naysayers. New subscriber! Thanks.

[@devastator1488]

Does anyone use lubricant to oil the v-slot?

[@superkillr]

Depends what the lubricant is? You wouldn't want something that made the wheels soft.

[@devastator1488]

@@superkillr don`t really know - that`s the reason to ask. any wolfrasyn?

[@MisterkeTube]

Wheels are supposed to turn, not slip. If they do slip, that will probably cause them to wear more. So, lubricant is likely not a good idea here.

[@83hjf]

wheels are made of POM (also known as Delrin, or Acetal), which is often said to be "self lubricating". it does have very low friction coefficient.

[@tarcisiobatista5595]

O feel the bumps, but wirhout the belt on it doesn't happens.

[@KiR_3d]

Very helpful! PC wheels must be the default option instead of POM.

[@NamelessUnicorn]

That's why I switched to entire metal V wheels for everything on my ender 3 v2 neo, I always had this issue where the wheels would eat themself after short period of time (I print a LOT). When I'll have the money, I'll switch to linear rails tho.

[@jimbobbyrnes]

its funny when the bearings die before the wheels do. the noise is incredibly frustrating.

[@juhajuntunen7866]

so, linear rails are winner in long run.

[@radicalxedward8047]

For stability yeah, but cost wise no. You’re going to spend way more on linear rails than replacing the POM wheels a bunch of times. The wheels are cheap, linear rails aren’t.

[@MM-oh3zs]

@@radicalxedward8047 Come on, I am always upgrading all my 3d printers to linear rails, upgrade costs anywhere from 60$ - 150$ per printer (last my upgrade was on Creality Ender 5 Plus, which costed around 30$ for rail). I will add that brand new wheels were already with flat spots. If you are printing perhaps 5h a week, then sure, maybe. But I am printing sometimes for 14-16h per day). Also add the labour cost to replacing the wheel, when you compare to your wage per hour (depending what you do, but I am working as software architect so linear rails are cheaper than 1h of my time). Do something once, properly even if that would cost you a bit more, but would give your long-term benefits and time-savings (so you have more time for work/education/building business so you can earn more).

[@83hjf]

@@MM-oh3zs hate to break it to you but $150 per printer upgrades are absolutely trash as far as linear rails go. are they ok? yeah. are they the REAL experience? no. You're looking at over $1000 per printer for nice linear rails that are straight, and skates with proper sizes and zero play.

[@enosunim]

Ok, I guess it is enough time passed, how are they, your linear rails? Also I bought Ender 3 for less then 150 bucks, and you want me to buy linear rails for that price? I would better buy one more Ender 3. This technology is already for 5 years or so. It is proven by time to be cheap and reliable.

[@juhajuntunen7866]

Its long time, so after that I change rollers to my ender 3, these aluminium extrusion bars has sharp edges and you literally can see how movement gring dust from wheels. Later I buy ender 5, it has not that problem, so it can be hit and miss how things goes. I dont have invested linear rails yet. Because this is only functional hobby I dont have hurry to anywhere.

[@enosunim]

Video: Hey POM wheels are great and easy to tune, here is why you should easy tune them. Comments: I should buy rails! They can't be tuned which means they are better!

[@EduardoSousa-fk6oy]

kkk acabei de ver que tenho que mudar as rodas do y

[@makewithmegma]

👌👍

[@ArtemiusMiave]

i wish i saw this video way earlier :(

[@MM-oh3zs]

So many people that keep lying to themselves ;) There is a reason why so many of us is upgrading to linear rails.

[@enosunim]

You have a lot of spare money? = )

[@fuloran1]

Just get a linear rail. For 75 bucks you never have issues with wheels on that axis again.

[@pw4485]

It's barbe à papa

[@MMORPGT]

buy linear rail , and you dont have any problems like this

[@enosunim]

yeah, you will have other problems = )

[@sasca854]

I know the price point of these printers is attractive, but _please_ do not buy an Ender (or similar clone). Especially you beginners. Enders are NOT beginner machines, they're just _cheap_ machines. Spend a little more and get yourself a printer with linear rails/rods and never worry about this again. They're more precise, more durable, and only marginally more expensive at this point. All they need is a dab of lubrication a couple times a year and they'll last pretty much indefinitely. No more wondering if they're too loose, or too tight-- if if either variable is negatively affecting your prints.

[@enosunim]

Wrong = ) Those expensive printers also more expensive in repairs too. While those wheels cost nearly nothing, and very easy to tune. While if your rail system start to wobble it is really not a beginners work to make them fixed. Also 3d printing is a strange sphere. There are a lot of expensive printers nowadays which make illusion that 3d printing is for everyone, or that if you buy some expensive machinery it will do all the work for you. But still anyone will have the same problems with expensive machinery too. It is not an inkjet printer. Print head maintenance, different roller and rail system maintenance, trouble with adhesion and first layer issues, z-offset configuration. All those things are still in most expensive models. They just delay some of the issues to appear. So Ender 3 or its clones are still the best way to start 3d printing. It does require DIY aspect. But... Why do you need 3d printer if not for DIY? To print couple of figures? You can order them from 3d printing farm.

[@The_Eldest_Millenial]

Anyone who thought this was dust lacks critical thinking, a basic understanding of friction as a force, and should definitely not own a 3D printer, LMAO. Maybe a high school physics book but not a 3D printer.