3d Printing! When is it, and when is it not appropriate?

In this video I cover off my thoughts on 3D Printing, when we should be using it and when we should steer away from it.
Marvel: Crisis Protocol is a tabletop hobby miniatures game set in the Marvel Universe. Players assemble, paint, and collect an ever expanding line of highly detailed plastic miniatures representing iconic Marvel characters. Players choose characters from their collections to form their own Marvel inspired dream team and then pit their chosen forces against each other on an interactive tabletop where the very terrain itself can be thrown, crashed into, and destroyed during the super powered showdown!
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[@PatrickRauland]

I appreciate you bringing up this topic. It's important to discuss in the community. Agree wholeheartedly: we have to support companies like AMG if we want them to keep creating amazing content & models for us. One thing that seems unique for MCP is we have multiple models representing the same character at different points in time. Ex. Spider-Man, Black Widow, & Dr. Strange. With these models I'd rather opponents use the official models since it's easy for me to be confused which version you're using.

[@supaganzai]

I'm looking to get into the game and I have limited money and two kids under 2. I own a few 3d printers. My take is, I am going to buy the box and some packs that I love. I will 3d print some models and terrain too. I wish I could afford to go out and buy everything but its not reality for most.

[@yagsipcc287]

Do what you want when you want and how you want. It's your money, it's your hobby, it's your time and it's your life

[@RichMidGaming]

Ultimately, yes, these (as I said in the video) are just my personal thoughts on 3D printing and how we as a community need to ensure we support the original creators of the game to keep it alive.

[@agvaquero8361]

I ran a large annual wargaming event for about 13 years, where we had 100+ players over a weekend. We allowed for alternative sculpts, scratch built models and proxies...only where there was absolutely no confusion as to what it was. That was the key, making sure that an opponent could look at the models and know what it was, be able to easily identify what model or unit it was representing.

[@captainspaulding5380]

There are a good few 3d prints going around in my local group of players. It's seems that we all agree that it's fine as long as you bought the actual pack

[@guildmaster92]

Anyone got the link for that juggernaut model? Looks sick.

[@kzekely913]

Great video and keep up the good work but... Hay rich, what were the website that have alternete custom 3d printed character that you showed qnd how do i find website that 3d print marvel crisis protocol character.

[@RichMidGaming]

There is a 3D printing group for MCP on Facebook, got them all from there

[@kzekely913]

@@RichMidGaming oh nice thank you

[@shadowhunter0176]

I use it for terrain and part mods, eg different weapons or bases.

[@jessmontgomery3454]

As long as you bought the original pack I'm cool with conversions or 3d prints 😀

[@justgrumpy]

I like this video. There are some good points. I am wondering about the Sam Wilson model shown on the title image. I play Sam Wilson, but think the shown model is really interesting. Where is it from?

[@RichMidGaming]

I believe it’s Titan studios. There is a 3D printing group for MCP on Facebook, I found the details there

[@justgrumpy]

@@RichMidGaming Thanks. There are several MCP groups.

[@quincy_md]

I think most of your points are spot on, I have a couple of 3d printed minis (an alt killmonger in mcu style) but I own the original with cards etc. I can see the appeal of cost on the models, but I don't think I could turn up to an event with a 3d printed model and printed stat card. A bit of a parallel topic, but I dunno what your thoughts are on printed tactics cards; I mean I'd happily pay for a deck of tactics/crisis cards, but don't like the fact that I have to buy a model I have no interest in just to get a specific card (especially a crisis) and I don't know what the etiquette is currently for tournaments

[@RichMidGaming]

tactics cards in this game I can see being an issue moving forward - $35 to pick up a tactics card that is included in models you don't use is very. very steep

[@804homes]

For tactics cards, an FLGS has ruled that printed tactics cards are legal for local tournaments as it helps bring in new players who don't want to buy a character just for a single card.

[@quincy_md]

@@RichMidGaming it's what killed x-wing for us locally, we used to play some op kits, and could only use official cards. As soon as the next "broken" card came out, some would rush to buy the ship it came in, even if it wasn't something they'd use, whilst others skipped it, and therefore missed the "must take" card

[@yansmac4796]

Agree 100%. If you own the model and a 3d print of the same model, no issues. The issues come in with things like Juggernaut. Some people have the model, others have 3d printed it, but everyone has access to the cards and rules. Will be come more difficult with the FAQ cards. Buy all the updated cards next year and 3d print the appropriate model...

[@mitchcowan1446]

I agree but I feel that it's a drop in the bucket compared to overall sales. I don't see it becoming in an issue. I myself always purchase the official items, but I have about a dozen 3D print alt sculpts and as many custom conversions I've done myself. I use mostly for casual games, but for the few events I've been at over the past 6 months, I asked the TO and also my opponent. No one said no, but I asked. I don't abide those that find a way to circumnavigate around actually purchasing the company's models though.

[@yansmac4796]

@@mitchcowan1446 I don't own a 3d printer but would love some alternative models, like a Captain Carter from the What If... series.

[@darrenmcnally82]

Totally agree with everything mate.

[@sneakyshiv]

I agree as long as the game developers are still getting support :)

[@tomgallant9253]

Good points. Even in our casual group we don't allow alternate version unless you have the original and that goes for MCP, Legion and Armada...my 3 game grps. Also its always up to the opponent if its okay, specifically for legion because sometimes it alters the profile of the character which can affect LOS, so we all have LOS templates just in case. As for Terrain, specifically in MCP I hate AMGs terrain cause its the wrong size. Yes it looks good, but its slightly off scale so I use all 3d printed. Plus there isn't enough variation available from the company. In the end though its all about keeping the games alive, and that doesn't happen unless we support them.

[@twony7920]

AMG Juggernaut cost too much. Should be around Hulk price but it is costing as much as the Hulkbuster.

[@davismma125]

I got the Peggy Carter 3d print but that's all so far.

[@kzekely913]

Where did you get peggy carter printed and how much was it?

[@genhulk]

I agree with all the points, however it is a shame models like Thanos and Dormmamu end up only being sold as part of special packs with huge centre pieces that you might not want, which is excatly why my thanos was 3d done because i couldnt justify £50+ for it, but if they had done a pack minus the terrain id of 100% got it

[@RichMidGaming]

Yeah, the ‘extra’ stuff isn’t always wanted so I get that can be annoying, but no different to how other companies package their products

[@804homes]

I hope that these company stop fighting the shift to 3D printing and start offering STL files for models. That way they can sell less expensive card packs for each character, making it cheaper for new players to get into the game.

[@RichMidGaming]

never going to happen - its not fighting the 3D trend, its how licensing works....

[@804homes]

@@RichMidGaming I wonder if shifting to a non-mini STL-only model would make a difference and break their licensing agreement, as licensing is broken up into different categories (Legion vs Imperial Assault). However, aside from the legal issues, I don't think its a trend they can ignore as the market is being flooded with cheap, quality printers and a wave of content creators producing amazing alternative sculpts.

[@mitchcowan1446]

Not everyone has a printer, or access to someone who has one. They need to stick to the traditional model but perhaps they could offer the ability to purchase their own STL's in place of the model, but until it's as common as a microwave in the home, I doubt it will ever fully replace the current system.

[@crashprime9434]

My examples for casual MCP: I want Black Cat, but that model looks disguisting. I want Jean Grey, but I dont want Cassandra Nova and booth character in the game are meh. Bought Daredevil through friend and he took Bullseye. Bullseye suddenly becomes great and I don`t want another Daredevil. I want to play new X-Men characters, but they are getting released in February and I will get the original too. I have 90% of the official models and I want another for some of them to paint them in other color, but I would rather spend money on new releases then duplicates of the originals since they are not cheap.

[@RichMidGaming]

100% on the duplicates front, if you’ve bought the box once already and want alternative sculpts then I personally don’t see a problem with that. In my honest opinion however, if you don’t own the cards, you shouldn’t use the figure….but that’s just my opinion.

[@dragerien2]

I see this as an issue only in certain situations. I like the idea of 3d printing parts to enhance an existing model, or if you're really not interested in a model's look. Especially if you're simply buying 3rd party models, it's a market you can't ignore. The issue with like GW, and their warhammer models, is they want to put out models in ways that hurt the kitbashing community and making it hard on people to do more what they want with the models. They are losing customers to people making more dynamic characters in the same setting styles. Honestly? I support 3d printing in most cases as long as it's not a direct copy of a model, example just 3d printing the same sculpt. Marvel does well with their things, because you still need the cards and such in their sets so you buy the kit. Then if you want an alternate sculpt, that should be cake. Their rules don't use the model for Line of Sight, but the base. For other things with giant tournaments, those are often ran by the company and that would be on them if they don't want to allow that. Game's Workshop's general rules were it has to be the right sized base, the right size model, AND have some GW parts attached at least. It means you can get some upgrade sprues and make something interesting, or just in general make some rather cool kits and models. Basically, I support 3d printing 100% if the company is failing to live upto the standards of the customer base. Beyond that, if the company is actually trying to make good sculpts and not reliant on you forking over money just to get the team you want to make rather than the team they want to sell you, then support them. Remember, you can get a squad of "boyz" for the orcs now that have so many you have to build as shoota boys and so many as slugga boyz, meaning you can't have a whole squad with one kit, they demand you buy more, about three or so, to make a full squad of shootas, but you'll then end up with just about half a max squad of sluggas, and three leaders you then can't use for anything else unless you're running small squads and partials.

[@mattb.2740]

I've been on GW boycott for years, now, but I do have to say that they really have no obligation to support the kit bashing community any more than a car company has an obligation to support the tuner community. It's not really on them to make their products easy to modify for people not using them as intended. I will also say that "failing to live up to the standards of the customer base" is really just saying "3D print whatever you want, whenever you want". People will always rationalize that their standards aren't being lived up to, even if it's just pricing. Applying your Ork example to MCP, it's very easy for someone to say, " I'm a huge X-Men fan and I want Jean Grey, but I don't care about Cassandra Nova and will never use her. I feel it's unfair that I'm being forced to pay for a character I don't want in order to build the team I want, so I'm going the 3D print route."

[@RichMidGaming]

I agree with your latter points their Matthew - if you’ve bought the pack and cards, I personally think it’s fine, but (at least in my opinion) if you print the cards off MCP database and use a 3D printed model, it’s akin to stealing…

[@dragerien2]

@@mattb.2740 I think the issue with the comparison is you're still getting other value in the MCP boxes in the form of cards and tokens, and even then it's not a fair comparison to the ork boyz because those aren't sold as a proper squad, forcing you to buy more to field a full unit. In this case, you don't need to field the character you don't want. Honestly, despite some character I don't think I'll use as often, I really enjoy the MCP packaging style of duos. As for the car analogy, the issue is that GW seems to want to encourage kitbashing... but they are moving towards only allowing kitbashes of their own product and parts, incredibly limiting the scope of the kitbashes in general because they are moving more into monopose so you have to cut apart the pieces to use other parts and kitbash, going from something anyone can make look good with alternative parts, to a lot more modeling work with things like greenstuff. Onto people's standards, you're always going to run into someone who is never happy and works around it. That's just how life goes. Some people are so hard to please that they even pass themselves off. I'm more referencing the customer base as a whole and their opinions on a product. You have to mass appeal to sell well. I can see why some people might want alternate sculpts for characters, some of the models might be a bit much for some or not enough, but in Rich's example he referenced also owning the kit to begin with, which seems a lot less stealing and more flavorful, especially since you need the cards and such anyways.

[@mattb.2740]

@@dragerien2 Personally, I have never come down on folks for not using WYSIWYG minis as long as I don't see them changing what the mini is equipped with mid game. If someone plunked a mix-match unit of Boyz on the table and says they're all slugga/choppa, I'm not going to complain. If you want to play WYSIWYG and want all your minis to have the specific options you want, GW makes you pay through the nose for it. If you're not playing competitively, don't get hung up on WYSIWYG or just have fun with the minis you have. If you are playing competitively, you're going to fork over tons of money to stay on the bleeding edge of the meta. If they're going back to monopose, it sounds more like they are discouraging kitbashing. When I first started with 40k, it was with metal monopose IG. I still remember converting a metal and plastic Flyrant. I will say that I don't really have an issue with conversions using some 3D printed parts. I also don't have an issue with 3D printed versions of minis a company has current printed rules for, but doesn't produce a mini for. I will freely admit to doing that in the past, but I still have buyer's remorse over it and try to get the official versions as they've dropped. With any game, if you've got a 3D printer and you've got 3D rendering skill and software and you create your own minis for your own personal use, have at it. However, if you're paying for files and/or prints, you're subsidizing someone who is profiteering off of someone else's IP, trademarks, and copyrights. That's why I personally have a grimy feeling about it. However, I'm not the minis police and I can't throw anybody in minis jail, so that's just my personal feelings on the subject.

[@HotelCharliHill]

Once you've given a company hundreds and hundreds of dollars, it's just greed on their part to expect you not to start printing whatever the heck you feel like. I've purchased nearly three dozen official crisis protocol figures..... it's time to print.

[@Spacefrisian]

I have a 3d Printed She Hulk, because i dont like the Marvel Crisis protocol She Hulk.

[@RichMidGaming]

She does look a bit goofy…..

[@callumlomas4884]

Enjoyed the video as always but feel your a little off the mark personally i think Alt sculpts are always fine as long as you have the correct rules either the app or the cards no need for the person to buy a model they don't like in order to spend money on the game. I think they should take it as encouragement to make nicer sculpts *cough X23* ill buy the models off whoever is doing the nicest sculpts and rules etc from AMG. *Edit* Unless your literally playing under their roof of course.

[@RichMidGaming]

See that’s where I completely disagree, if you haven’t bought the original model, I personally think it’s tantamount to stealing if you then just print off a character card from somewhere - you are literally stopping them making an income and if everyone did that we would be left with no company and no game. You also have to remember that AMG are not free to just make whatever model they want in whatever pose they want, it is under license so everything from the artwork on the cards, to the sculpts have to go through an approval process with Disney - 3rd parties don’t have to do this so can make characters however they want. I would always allow 3rd party models to be used at any event I run, but would always insist on original character, tactics and Crisis cards for this very reason. But as always, these are always my opinion and aren’t going to reflects everyone’s.

[@callumlomas4884]

@@RichMidGaming No offense mate but if that's the case wouldn't it 100% be exactly the same for terrain tbh as they also sell that?

[@RichMidGaming]

@@callumlomas4884 I think terrain is different. Yes they sell it and some of their terrain is licensed (Sanctum, Fisk Construction etc) but none of it contains any additional 'stuff' for the game. I also don't think AMG relies on money generated from terrain to keep the company going, also, AMG can't copyright the 'NYC Apartment building' as anybody can make one (Sanctum is slightly different)

[@callumlomas4884]

@@RichMidGaming Just think its abit wrong to call someone a thief because they don't want to buy a certain sculpt while mass printing terrain for events which i'm not saying is wrong at all but printing 10 sanctum sanctorum's is no different to printing an alt sculpt it doesn't mean you or said person doesn't spend more than enough money to support the company by contrast i find the people who do have alt sculpts tend to have the bigger collections anyway and they are mostly just printing the 2 or 3 sculpts they dislike. Personally its either 100% official terrain included or its a Reasonable level of acceptance across the board.

[@RichMidGaming]

@@callumlomas4884 I agree that printing Sanctums is no different. My point stands however, not buying the official pack and using a 3rd party sculpt will effect the money AMG makes and their ability to create more characters, if everyone did it the company would go bust…

[@jonathanquinlan3811]

there is never a time when its not appropriate

[@mitchcowan1446]

I love 3D printing, but there ARE situations where it isn't. For an even playing field in a competitive environment, and especially when the sculpts or proxies are not clear as to what the model represents, that is the issue. Otherwise I say knock yourself out with making prints. I have numerous custom sculpts I've made and among then as many 3D prints I've purchased, but I use only in casual games and would never bring to a competitve event without approval from the TO and the players. I have an alt sculpt for MODOK (Jean Grey Phoenix) and modeled Red Skull as Nick Fury with the Cube (from the 1st Avengers movie) and I asked the TO at an event over the summer, as well as the players I matched with. None had issue, but I got out in front of it, as opposed to just assuming it's ok.

[@RichMidGaming]

Whilst I respect your opinion and choice, I personally disagree. If everyone went to 3D printing without actually purchasing any of the models, then we wouldn’t have a game anymore..

[@RichMidGaming]

Nobody. Which is why I always say these are my own personal opinions, you are all your own persons and can ultimately do what you want. As for people who get product early, that is down to Asmodee and their distribution (they will use COVID as an excuse but they have always been bad), if somebody gets an official model before you, it isn’t their fault….

[@charleswaltz7134]

This is a bad take sorry as soon as AMG can figure out how fix the supply for the demand I’ll stop 3D printing I find it bull that I have to wait months for something that I bought when I can order form anywhere in my Country and find someone selling 3D models and get it faster

[@charleswaltz7134]

“But Covid is affecting the supply lines” not my problem either get my stuff to me on time or I’ll find them somewhere else

[@mitchcowan1446]

@@charleswaltz7134 Hahahhaahahha. You play with your toys however you want lol Your money, your time, your fun, no matter how entitled you are ;P