$4000 Revel VS $350 Wharfedale | The Results Might Surprise You!

[@CP-du3ci]

I remember years ago when I was just 15 and started playing in a band. We used to practise at the home of the guitarist. His father was a true audiophile and every week he would spend hundreds (this was 1974) on new bits of kit for his system and he was constantly tinkering with the setup as you have demonstrated in this video. After a few months I turned up on a Saturday morning and all his high end kit was gone and he had a Pioneer amp and deck with AR MST speakers. Altogether just a fraction of the cost of his previous kit. He had redecorated his room and purchase a new chair, disposing of much of the other furniture. when I asked him why the change he simple said he had spent years looking for the perfect sound reproduction and finally realised that it didn't exist, so he swapped the whole lot for a system that gave him the sound he liked. The morel of this story I suppose is that beauty is in (in this case) the ears of the beholder. He ended up with a place to relax and listen to his music in comfort and with a sound he was more than happy with. The price tag doesn't make the sound better.

[@VidarrKerr]

It is all for show and till fill an empty hole in their "inner self", or whatever. Even the musicians that create the music don't get obsessed about this stuff. Only when they go to the recording studio.

[@CP-du3ci]

@@VidarrKerr You may be right, it wasn't long after that his parents split up. May health and prosperity be your friend.

[@scottyo64]

@@VidarrKerr they are obsessive about equipement, instruments etc. They are the same just on the front end.

[@VidarrKerr]

@@scottyo64 Yeah, they have a favorite guitar, amp and pedals, for example. But, you don't see them going to such crazy lengths as these "audiophile" people do. It is a borderline sickness.

[@encinobalboa]

Personal preference trumps price every time. If the listener prefers pedestrian over boutique, that is a valid outcome.

[@SuperstarInCharge]

I've said this for years: the law of diminishing returns is very evident with high-end Hi-Fi. This video certainly provides some solid evidence to that, and kudos to the man making the video for explaining it in such a simple easy-to-understand way.

[@jyrkih6960]

Revel speakers measure very well. They rely on extensive studies done by Harman. This guy , although knowledgeable, doesn’t measure the speakers thoroughly and is emphasizing free field response. Mostly he’s selling upgrade kits.

[@caysonheath592]

I realize it's kinda off topic but do anyone know a good place to watch new series online?

[@bennetttobias6427]

@Cayson Heath Flixportal :P

[@caysonheath592]

@Bennett Tobias Thanks, I went there and it seems to work :) I really appreciate it!!

[@bennetttobias6427]

@Cayson Heath You are welcome xD

[@paulmurgatroyd6372]

I live near the site of the original Wharfedale factory in the UK, as kids we used to raid their yard for broken magnets. Strange how a random video can revive these childhood memories.

[@wb3213]

did you ever find a pair of speakers ?

[@paulmurgatroyd6372]

@@wb3213 No but I tried to get a job there when I left school, but they wouldn't have me. 😂🤣

[@dab9742]

When I was very young, for me Wharfedale speakers were something inaccessible, even esoteric, today I think it looks a little bit fake!

[@paulmurgatroyd6372]

@@dab9742 Which bit looks fake?

[@dab9742]

@@paulmurgatroyd6372 Sorry, It's the translation that is wrong, I didn't mean to say looks fake, but rather low-end, or made in China for the current productions of the brand !

[@rrtind]

I have the stock Wharfedale anniversary edition and I’ve always been overwhelmingly surprised by how good they are, despite limitations that are more than fair given the price. I previously upgraded to speakers costing 3 times the price, then 5 times the price, and while each upgrade brought a difference, I was always perplexed by how the overall balance and voicing was better on the Wharfedales. Now I know the answer, the Wharfedales (although cheap) are better designed and better balanced than many other speakers and I totally believe these upgrades will turn them into real gems that are better than stock speakers costing several multiples more. I’m loving these speaker upgrade videos. Keep ‘em coming 👍👍

[@jdlech]

Some "high end" speaker manufacturers are really just money grabs exploiting people's perception of "mo money always == better quality" In my humble experience, I've heard stereo equipment with great specs sound bad, but I've never had any stereo equipment with bad specs sound good. I always start with the specs and weed out the pretenders from there. But then, we all know what sales departments like to do with spec sheets. Industry wide, there's companies of integrity and companies without. I can't tell who is who by reading the spec sheet.

[@rrtind]

@@jdlech Good of you to share your experience, it’s interesting about the specs. Lately I was looking into integrated amps and seeing their given fuse ratings turned out to be a fine indicator for the capability of the amps to at least handle/supply a healthy dose of current, something for years I failed to pay attention to, yet now seems so obvious! Outside of specs, I’m very wary of equipment that looks a little too pretty! Just my two pence/cents worth...

[@WARDANT1]

I have the anniversary speakers too. Love them. I went to Audio Gold in London & said I have a budget of £500 tops. Tried several brands, but the softer sound Of the highs made it a no brainer for me.

[@rrtind]

@@WARDANT1 Nice to know I’m in good company. I like the more subtle highs too, they take the edge off of some digital sources nicely. In my old system comprising an original UK Audiolab 8000s amp and Rega Apollo CD player, the speakers imaged unbelievably well and completely disappeared.

[@dezafinado]

@@rrtind Anniversary edition... are you referring to the Denton 80th Annies?

[@guguigugu]

wharfedale uses the same tweeter across the entire diamond range, including the large floorstanders. the tweeter itself is simply spectacular for this price range.

[@ManuelMedellin.]

and AMT tweeters on their (not so much more expensive) Evo series, which is even more remarkable

[@aussie_philosopher8079]

The phase relationship between the tweeter and woofer on the wharfedale after being modded is pretty remarkable.

[@macstar8317]

I have a pair of these Wharfedale 9.1's and I can confirm they punch well above their weight. You can pick them up in the UK new for around £120 now - incredible value for money. A great sounding speaker in stock form, although I'm very tempted to install these upgrades now...

[@scottmackey4182]

Great video, Danny! Honest and equitable comparison. End results put the two options so close to each other, but the difference in cost (up front and after upgrades) is considerable. Really appreciate your hard work!

[@olegyamleq7796]

WOWW!! This was a brutal assessment. Great job!!! Thanks for pulling the curtain back!!!

[@user-ex9zm7bg3x]

all too rare for reviewers to look inside equipment and tell us what we're getting

[@jdlech]

Decades ago, when I was recently divorced and "starting over", I bought a super cheap set of coffee table and two end tables. They were made of shit brown pressboard, which is just one step above cardboard. It's just sawdust + glue + a bit of pressure to manufacture. You can't even put a screw in it without it disintegrating like paper. But it also had a really nice looking high gloss shine over the veneer - if I can even call it veneer. It's probably paper thin and made to look like Madagascar rosewood. My point is, I figure if they can put a nice glossy finish on pressboard, they can put a nice shiny finish on almost anything. Because of this, I'm more impressed by what's under that shine than the gloss itself. That's one of my big beefs with the audio speaker industry. Even at $2000 each, speakers are still made of MDF when that's just cheap, cheap, cheap. There's a thousand other materials that look better and sound a lot better. But since MDF is dirt cheap, even the expensive guys use it. And that's just not right. Plywood is better at vibration damping than MDF. And at $2K plus, I expect better than cheap plywood, and a whole lot better than the cheapest MDF they can find. Especially for little guys like those. If you're talking about huge speakers, or tall towers, I can see hardwood getting really expensive. But for little boxes like that, the cost of a better quality material (and there's a lot of them out there), is not prohibitive. Yeah, I know people will say "I'd rather they soak their money into better drivers than better boxes". But is that what they're really doing? Just look at that modded Warfdale response curve and spectral decay, then try to tell me the Revel drivers are 10X better. btw, I haven't seen response curves that flat outside of a manufacturers 'liars sheet' until I started watching this channel. I'd have to say the modded Warfdales really are worth $600 / pair. And I'm going to politely refrain from commenting on the Revels.

[@carlosoliveira-rc2xt]

Here in Canada MDF/HDF isn't cheap.

[@RennieAsh]

You can probably buy similar drivers to those revels for the price of the wharfedales, then you'd have a huge budget to build a cabinet, or just save your money. Would be interesting to hear both of them with bass rolled off to see how similar or different they are

[@jdlech]

@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt In that vein, nothing is cheap. But have you priced marine or furniture grade plywood for comparison?

[@jdlech]

@@RennieAsh The specs of the tweeter in the SVS towers (last video) impressed me so much that I inquired SVS about availability and pricing. The grilling I got in response gave me the impression that you have to buy the whole speaker to get the tweeters. lol. But I'm always looking.

[@fatboy19831]

I have seen a few British speakers in the $2000 range that use real wood in their speakers. Even so it is a mix of real wood and MDF.

[@staLkerhu]

Man, don't forget that Beryllium tweeters are crazy expensive. The cheapest one I found is 300 USD by itself, and this one in the video seems like a high end tweeter for me. So in the 4000 USD setup the tweeters alone cost minimum 600 USD but I bet they are rather between 800-900 USD (if not more). It seems like the woofer has a ceramic cone (not aluminium) which is also on the expensive side. Is this 4000 USD setup overpriced? Yes. Is it worth the money? No, but I'm pretty sure there is a small market for these products, because a few people definietly willing to pay this price.

[@quagmyer7230]

I know speakers are key to a great sounding system, but speaker placement and room acoustics are 100 times more important. I have listened a properly placed set of $700.00 speakers blow a poorly placed pair of $10.000.00 speakers right out of the water. Many, many people think they need to spend more money to get better sound, when all they have to do is move some furniture and objects around in the room. Great video, as usual.

[@afborro]

I've never looked back since going near field, it reduces the room even more and imaging is unmatched. Large tower room setups are history for me. I swear decent £500 monitors can sound better than a 10 times the price full room setup I owned over the years.These days there is only about a meter and a bit between my ears and the tweeters.:D

[@k1ortia]

Your missing the one other major factor aswell, speaker wire. Run a set of speakers with normal OFC then try them again with say some Chord Silver Anniversary for only £5.50 per meter. The sound is night and day

[@remcovandijk279]

@@k1ortia I'm afraid you've fallen for the well-known placebo effect. Did you do a blind test? Self-proclaimed audiophiles cannot even hear the difference between 'pro-grade' speaker wire and a clothes hanger. Unless you're using very thin wires for the power you're pushing through them, all the rest is just snake oil. www.zdnet.com/article/coat-hanger-wire-is-just-as-good-as-a-high-quality-speaker-cable/

[@MartynCole]

I stopped being interested in HIFI when magazines here in the UK started going on about how the fuses in UK mains plugs altered the sounds. I'm afraid after that I saw the emperor was naked.

[@remcovandijk279]

@@afborro Same here. Due to various reasons my hi-fi listening these days is either through headphones or through a decent set of Kef desktop speakers about a meter away from my ears. Couldn't be happier (apart from the always-nagging question if that other headphones or speaker set that got good reviews would sound even better ;-)).

[@MrROTD]

At 4000 dollars it shouldn't need any improvements, thats ridiculous.

[@aaronhowe3523]

Totally agree. For 4k it should be using top quality internal parts from the factory.

[@Seventhsonofamaiden]

The higher price doesn't guarantee that much better sound quality just a bigger profit margin for the speaker manufacturer.

[@sturdyvw]

He didn’t really improve them… listen to that revel for yourself. Also his measurements disagree with literally every other measurement of that revel, not great for credibility.

[@EdHunter55]

If the 4000 dollar set was perfect nobody would buy the 8000 dollar set of speakers! XD

[@wishusknight3009]

@@sturdyvw I have heard those revel's. They are in no way worth their money. They are tops a 650 dollar speaker.

[@davidtomsett]

The Revel is making its manufacturer a HUGE profit margin.They could sell it for half the price and still make a decent margin. It just shows how hi fi firms can exploit their customers.

[@davidtomsett]

@NOTREALLY HANKAARON Hank, yes agreed but the Wharfedales are much better value. I use their younger brother, the 9.0 and they are really good value at £49 or $67.

[@mer9706]

It's an interesting problem every brand faces. If you crank up the price it is likely that your sales will drop. But if you make the same amount via increased margin then you gain huge advantage in doing physically less work. Sales go down, but labor goes way down. In Revel's case, they did just enough to be better than most affordable, quality brands. Enough for people with money to ask the simple question, "which is better" and Revel have a ready made marketing strategy to do the persuading. One thing that gets overlooked with the luxury brands, IMO, is that they must have exorbitant marketing and brand image costs. They have advertisements in all the fancy architectural magazines, extravagant booths at shows, etc. In other words, it probably costs a fortune just to sustain the appearance of excellence.

[@davidtomsett]

@thatguy true

[@vincentruben4365]

@NOTREALLY HANKAARON what are you talking about? its a symptom of a sick system bound to destroy itsself. Workers/consumers get exploited this way. The €4000 option is available because of the ever increasing wealthgap. And this is just 1 product example. This has nothing to do with being a grown man or not.

[@IliyaOsnovikov]

@NOTREALLY HANKAARON Good choice of speakers. I've got Energy RC-10 and think they are very good value.

[@great100m]

This is exactly why I like this channel for GR Res. How many reviewers would say that a $350 speaker matches a $4000 speaker ? Now I realize that there is some marketing involved, ie "after the modifications ...", but this is from a very experienced listener and he concludes that some may prefer the sound of one or the other but certainly indicates how flat that diminishing returns curve really can be (and how expensive a cabinet can be ...).

[@connorduke4619]

Or how expensive a logo can be... cough, B&W, cough.

[@IliyaOsnovikov]

Danny's measurements are somewhat limited. No distortion numbers, no power compression graphs. Also no listening tests.

[@heinzr9734]

I'm not so sure whether two different speakers have just been improved quite well or whether the lovingly polished voicing of the manufacturer has been completely destroyed at once. Just one example: The biggest misconception e.g. with capacitors: Polypropylene is always good and polyester is always bad because cheap. If I now exchange a polyester for a polypropylene in an xover without knowing what I am doing, it is ignorance to pay attention only to the "quality" of the cap. Let's assume that Wharfedale is a traditional brand that still wants to represent its British sound. And let's assume that it's not just about cost. Then the polyester cap will probably achieve much more of the desired British sound. Because the ESR of the polyester cap is more like that of caps used 40 years ago. I'm not just changing the "sound" of the capacitor, I'm changing the overall impedance of the xover. This leads to unpredictable and mostly unintended changes. For example, bass and tweeter no longer harmonize in timing, the "Q" of the polypropylene cap is "too accurate", the box can become sharp cutting and shrill sounding. The bass can become too quiet. Of course there are situations where I want to repair or improve something. But I have respect for the development of speakers. On the one hand, the manufacturer must pay attention to costs but on the other hand, he makes (once!) The painstaking work of tuning for the whole production series. And there any change in the xover can throw everything into imbalance. The same applies to the superstition that air chokes are always and everywhere better than those with iron core. Again, I change the overall impedance and timing. I can only decide what quality my components are before I design and develop them, not so well afterwards. But I understand it very well that people who experience these videos very enthusiastic, because you do something yourself, thereby perhaps open the first doors to the wonderful world of acoustics and electrical engineering.

[@derekcooper1831]

I have the Warfdales and for simply sitting and listening to music they are perfect.

[@paulfisher8753]

Bought some Wharfedale Diamond 9.1s a couple of months ago for £119 or $165, you cant beat that for these little speakers, great sound....

[@mhnoni]

I just bought a peer of Diamond 9.1, and I've been spending money on speakers for years, now I think I found peace, this is it, I don't know if there are any better speakers than this one. for sure there are, but for me, this is the end game.

[@conspiracytocommit]

Finally, a proper Scientific Analyzer ! 110% agree, including that the Quality of Internal wire does actually matter! However, you are much more forgiving than I am. Seriously, at $4000, Revel just forgot to kill off the weird box resonances? Pathetic.

[@pliedtka]

Well the Tweeters are Beryllium on Revels, actually very nice drivers, on par with the Paradigms or other well engineered products. The drivers are designed by ex ScanSpeak people. Of course the crossover is usually much more complicated with metal cones. The box disappoints - wow the sides ring like crazy. As for the voicing I hate screaming tweeters..., and I have no problem with their te level and crossover parts. And the rising impedance on TW section actually might be a good thing as most amps have lower distortions with higher impedances. Revels usually measure very well on Klippel, and I would expect this to be no different. Wharfedale - the drivers aren't as hi-tech, so crossovers aren't as complex. Very Good set of simple spkrs for the money. And the enclosures are better put together than Revels. BTW, the measurements are 1/3oct MLS. I would like it to see them in 1/12oct smoothing as one can see problems with the cone resonances, diffraction, etc.

[@DaftBunny]

Here in Europe you can get the new Wharfedale Diamond 12.2 for about 350 Euro's (=425 dollars), which is the 6.5" version for the new Diamond series. Would really love to see how that measures and what an upgrade might do to it! If the 'new' speaker is indeed better, that could be something. The spacing between the woofer and tweeter did increase though, compared to the series 9.

[@mb-electricalservices]

I could listen to you all day. 👍 Really interesting stuff! Well done. 👌

[@crysstoll1191]

I’ve had 3 sets of Wharfedales. Evo-2, Evo-3, and a much higher end set can’t remember the name. All three sounded fantastic especially driven by an Ashley mosfet amp.

[@jamesbruce7180]

I too have three pairs including budget diamond 9.1 in this video and some Lintons and 12.2. They are astonishingly good value relative to competition. I also have Wilson Audio speakers costing thousands. The wharfedales are nearly as good!!!

[@crisfiler6128]

I still have my Wharfdale E50 from the 80's...still sound great and very efficient

[@100Gmarks]

Wharfedale has a remarkable heritage. The founder was G.A. Briggs, who started the company in 1932. By the 1950's he was doing live versus recorded comparison sessions in places such as Festival Hall in London and Carnegie Hall in NYC, with considerable success. One of his early designs had a large open baffle (not a closed box) that consisted of two sheets of wood with a gap in-between filled with sand for damping. They were similar in size to the Quads that appeared in the marketplace at that time; perhaps the Quads were the inspiration for Briggs to try the open baffle and he found he liked it. His writing of that period showed a combination of measurement and listening being used to guide his choices.

[@timbermg]

The Revel's better power response is quite evident on measurement. Not sure the resistor reduction is the right move as the power response seems less balanced. What does the DI and early reflection weighted response look like before/after?

[@Jason-kc6vk]

If I spent $4000 for 2 bookshelf speakers, I don't expect to have to do anything to them. I'll take the $350 speakers any day of the week and maybe tweak them. The $4000 speakers are for people that like to say they spent $4000 on speakers to impress someone, and probably couldn't tell the difference in sound quality anyway.

[@elderinmoi1571]

Lol - visit a Hi-Fi shop and you should easily find that it is not the cheaper speakers that sound best... from your post I think you can’t tell the difference iso you must think people who buy expensive gear just want to impress while that is far from truth. A blind person might not be able to find use in colors, a deaf person no use in audiophile sound (but there is a video of a deaf audiophile and he is awesome) but they should not claim to know anything about it (and they won’t). You on the other hand have probably a hearing that is not much better (or just not good enough) so you should just shut up as well. Go with another hobby that suits you better.

[@francisking5164]

I appreciate your work done on, testing, diagnostic, and re-engineering the crossover to elevate the performance of consumer loudspeakers. By doing so, your work brings to light the value of the product. I build my own and use premium parts in locations similar to your locations, but I can not see the reason for not going the full length and give you the value.

[@OtisIndustrial]

Interesting, I appreciate the non biased and technical evaluation. You don’t see this type of information on offer anywhere else. It makes you wonder why the design engineers didn’t just make them better at the beginning. Profit margin I suppose.

[@kohnfutner9637]

Not to discredit the content creator but he should be viewed as a competitor and not an absolute authority. He often pushes his own products. Not to say he's dishonest but there is a conflict of interest that should be recognized.

[@mash5702]

Always interesting to watch.. like the honesty

[@owenjbrady]

id still take the Wharfedale's with or without the upgrades

[@watsoft70]

Probably because you know you like the sound of them. Who needs to alter a sound that they enjoy?

[@DrRyman]

Pair them up with a class a amplifier like a crown 300 and you’ve got a serious Nearfield monitor.

[@chrisplunkett2814]

Even the Wharfedales are vastly over priced! Results like these will never ever surprise me.The difference here is perceived quality based on the manufacturers name.Snobbery insists that Wharfedale are no better than toys for hi-fi 'experts' (a term I use VERY loosely).Expensive components in their system are worn as a badge of honour when listed on the tagline at the end of their posts on hi-fi and audio forums. These people genuinely believe that if they spend money on their system,it must sound better right? A neighbour of mine from a few years ago spent an absolute fortune on his gear and always called me in to have a listen when he made an upgrade.He spent £300 on a set of aluminium cones to sit the power amp on (about £5 worth in real money) and was convinced he could hear a difference.The only difference I could hear was the disapproving sounds from his wife.I had to be polite and gave it a 'Maybe,difficult to tell really'.

[@kalel33]

I'm excited to see if what you say is true. I live in Denver and they have the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest here, with 90 listening rooms from all the major manufacturers there. I'm going to decide what I like based on what I hear, not on the price tag.

[@iunnox666]

Plenty of snake oil and markups in high end audio, but a lot of that stuff really is pretty expensive to make. $350 is very cheap for a decent set of speakers.

[@davidpierce1634]

It's been my experience in the traveling circus we call life that just because something cost more doesn't necessarily mean it's better

[@LeeLucas]

I have 4 of the Wharfedale 9.1's in the same colour Cherry on my 5.1 setup along with the Wharfedale Diamond SW250 Subwoofer and I would not bother changing them. They are excellent speakers and it just goes to show you don't have to spend silly money to get quality.

[@sameshitdifferentcolour4197]

did you had any issue with foam surroundings of 9.1's woofer? i found second hand 9.2 in good condition but i afraid to buy due to refoaming job.

[@LeeLucas]

@@sameshitdifferentcolour4197 No I cannot say I have had any problem at all with them. I originally brought a brand new pair of 9.1s along with the Wharfedale Diamond SW250 Subwoofer back in 2005. For many years I used an old pair of Wharfedale Valdus speakers as my rear speakers and it was only a couple of years ago that I decided I wanted more of a balanced sound so I looked to see if I could get my hands on another couple of the 9.1's in Cherry second hand and came across a pair in immaculate condition for £90. I still have a Valdus Centre Speaker and eventually will try and see if I can replace that. The only trouble is I have it in the centre on the top of my Adams Fireplace and my TV is wall mounted above it leaving very little room to fit the one I wanted from that range in. I will have to try and get the lower priced one that is not as high cause I don't fancy taking the TV and bracket off the wall to move it higher to accommodate it 😊😊😊.

[@johnloupis2347]

After watching your videos I have a really hard time trying to understand how anyone can plop down thousand of dollars on speakers. With a few hundred bucks you can make dramatic improvements to average speakers. I bought a pair of used Mirage Omni 250's last winter that are in flawless condition. Because the speakers are about 15 years old I figured I would swap out the caps to film caps. I had never worked on speakers before and I found it to be not as difficult as expected. $55 later and about 3 hours of my time and I can tell you it's the best time and money I have ever spent on stereo equipment. It was a dramatic improvement!

[@martybousum1010]

We all need to put you on as much of social media (exposure) as possible. You are an audio guru who is doing a great service!!

[@Tonehenge]

Your upgrade turns the Diamond into a thoroughly legit recording studio nearfield. It's only shortcoming in that application may be absolute dynamics, but still...

[@hrvojekant9415]

As usual...comprehensive balanced approach ...to both speakers ...never the less the price ...with the same professional attantion...wich is great !

[@keplermission4947]

$5-8 worth of parts? Uh ... where is he getting inductors and all else for 5-8 dollars? No. GR-Research is a joker. I mean do some research next time.

[@davep2945]

@@keplermission4947 Part of the issue is that he is used to buying in bulk and knows the price manufacturers can get from even larger orders than he makes but he reports pricing as if the average Joe buying a handful of parts can get the same deal. Even then it's a bit of stretch. The bigger issue I have is him guessing about the cone material on the Revel tweeter. Is it beryllium coated aluminum as he suggests it might be? Maybe, but Revel says it's beryllium and unless he has proof that it isn't he shouldn't put the idea out there that it might not be. Danny's is a guy a lot of people look to for information and advice so the information he puts out needs to be accurate, not guesses when it comes to things like that.

[@johnjacobjingleheimerschmi5372]

Great video. I'm curious as to the need to bring the tweeter response up to be more even with the woofer. Dr. Floyd Toole states, and I'm paraphrasing here, that in blind listening tests, speakers with about a -3db slope from lows to highs is a preferred characteristic. So why change it?

[@connorduke4619]

I was understand the same impression: that a flat but gently downward sloping frequency response curve is best.

[@gautieraudio3590]

If the treble is of good quality, it is not necessary to reduce it. It would be necessary to compare the response curves on white noise (signal in 192khz minimum) and on frequency sweep to find out a little more. In any case, the Revel tweeter seems less well damped when the frequency increases, hence the necessary drop in its level to maintain satisfactory listening.

[@danieltracy9801]

I'm glad KZbin recommended this video to me. I've learned so much from just this 1 video.

[@Hoggdoc1946]

Indeed, you don't always get what you pay for, right?

[@BarRYK333]

I had the Wharfdale diamond series, The are very warm and punchy bass with no distortion even at high volumes, mid is warm and deep, highs are very laid back and dont extend to high not much sparkle. But they get Loud with no distortion!

[@thevinylattack]

Always interesting to see the comparisons Danny. Keep 'em coming.

[@gotohoward]

Love the video. Knowledgeable and sensible fellow. I remember watching another video about speaker wires as antennas, and never bought it the whole way since the level going through kind of makes it pointless if you use reasonable wire, and not necessarily very expensive wire. I'm more of a measurable worth in many things, but he certainly is right about wires being basically antennas. lol

[@Darrylizer1]

I'm surprised that 4 grand doesn't get you as much as it should. The Wharfedale on the other hand seems an excellent deal even with the added cost of the upgrade. This is really good info.

[@bikemike1118]

The main point is : what is their difference in sound quality… there the Revel should actually be the king of those two boxes. And sound quality is what we’re all in this hobby for, aren’t we?

[@sr71blackbirddr]

4 grand and the speaker box is still MDF 😬

[@bikemike1118]

@@sr71blackbirddr such a shame

[@sr71blackbirddr]

@@bikemike1118 Seems a rip off to me I'd have the upgraded Wharfedale everyday of the week 😁

[@bikemike1118]

@@sr71blackbirddr at first sight it might appear so…but Revel is actually a PRETTY good brand …and I suppose they sound way better than the Wharfedale. If they would offer crap for 4.000 they would ruin their image. So material is not everything…it depends how it’s done. A listening test would probably proof the differences

[@stevekarr4613]

Hey Danny, I'm very impressed with the simplicity and clarity that you convey in a very complex topic. I see a pattern...Esre inductors, Sonic caps, non-sandcast resistors, 4 9s copper non-pvc jacketed wiring, tube connectors, and a sheet of No-Res. Of course, CLIO analysis and your knowledge of how to fix all of these jacked up factory crossovers makes it all fly. It just makes me wonder how the hundreds of "hi-fi" speaker designers justify their existence. The profit margins on those Revels are insane!

[@mattgraham4340]

what's wrong with PVC insulation? At audio frequencies why would it make a difference

[@MichaelThompson-gy8pz]

I had the stock wharfedale’s -- a very pleasant speaker similar to dynaco a25. I imagine the upgrade might be worth it.

[@TheDecguy]

Wow, that comparison spans more than a few decades. I wish I still had my old Dynaco a25 to make that same comparison. My Goodwill sourced Dynaco cabinets eventually succumbed to the South Florida heat and humidity. Looking back I wish that I had built a replacement set of cabinets for them.

[@RumblestripDotNet]

I have a pair of A25's I've thought about asking Danny about refreshing these 40 year old speakers.

[@MichaelThompson-gy8pz]

@@RumblestripDotNet you’ll need a crowbar to get those woofers out - trust me

[@RumblestripDotNet]

@@MichaelThompson-gy8pz I've had to replace one, you're not wrong!

[@RennieAsh]

@@RumblestripDotNet Wasn't much of a crossover in those, so yeah they could do with an upgrade lol

[@Evermoregreen23451]

Thank you for explaining the differences between two good speaker providers. I am always lost when purchasing audiophile products. Unfortunately in the UK it’s very difficult to get consultancy type advice to suit ones ear. I love your expert commentary

[@andrewwebb4635]

That was an amazing video. Thank you for pulling the wool from our eyes.

[@Mike81111]

I have had several Wharfedale 9-series Diamond speakers including this 9.1 Diamond. They all sounded dark due to the tweeter being at low level. Midrange is very good on these. Base is also good in models with 6.5" or 8" base/midrange drivers. I always boosted the treble to make them sound better. However boosting treble from the amplifier isn't the real solution. This upgrade kit is what these Diamonds need. Thanks for the great video 👌

[@matthewtaylor7355]

They aren't dark.... On my 300b amp they bright

[@Mike81111]

@@matthewtaylor7355 That's rare

[@simonzinc-trumpetharris852]

Dark? It must be your ears.

[@Mike81111]

@@simonzinc-trumpetharris852 You can see it from the frequency response and everyone already knows including Danny that these have low treble level. So that makes them dark. You must have +10 db treble ears.

[@Jofelmenneke]

Agree. But it is a little more complicated then it seems according to my own experience. Parts can be better but must be a match with the rest of the speaker. It is really like making soup. It 's very nice to expirimate with. But then it will cost more to try the different options. When done right to your ears you can win a lot with a upgrade. You can also try to expirimate with damping material. Nice video!

[@tonydeniro284]

I own wharfedale diamond 225's...they won both the stereophile and absolute sound product of the year awards in I believe 2017. They Cost $449 new, and can still be had for $299 on sale, but in black only. They are amazing speakers for the price, even more amazing for only $299 on sale. Herb Reichert fell madly in love with the 225's in his review. The late Art Dudley mentioned that he was astounded by the useful response in bass extension measurements, they produced appreciable output down to a shocking 31.5 hz! I think wharfedale did an amazing job designing the 225's. Yes, they contain the crappy all metal nuts on the back side of the binding posts, but for the price, sacrifices were of course made.

[@stephen579]

I am impressed but I would have liked to hear them so I could value the upgrades.

[@gakugaku955]

Very interesting review. The comments on the wharfedale seem quite constrained. They are amazing.

[@gee3883]

Revels $50 worth of parts $3950 worth of Lacquer.

[@vikassm]

:) Disappointingly, your comment is nearly bang on target!!

[@chrisfi3d]

R&D and other factors that bring a product to market, not withstanding.

[@stevesakotic8280]

Excellent presentation. The retrofit of components, and conclusions regarding the sound quality is absolutely staggering when considering the price ranges between these speakers.

[@Moparvanman]

Often you get what you pay for, But in just as many cases, The "Cheap stuff" Can be almost as good. Nice to see a video where someone share theyre thoughts about that phenomenon :-)

[@ehrenkrause9861]

Soft cones give you a warmer sound. I don't know if you've ever heard the aluminum eighth inch woofers in a base cabinet and the sound is crisp and very distinctive. I think metal cones are a selling gimmick the lighter the comb the better the response that's why a lot of people perforated 10-inch subwoofers to get the lower frequencies without distortion

[@pliedtka]

To me they share similar characteristics to metal dome tweeters - distortions can be very low, break-up in well designed cone could be pushed higher but still needs to filtered. Yes, I noticed the sound of the ALU coned midwoofers from SB is different from their paper, poly or Carbon-Rohacell cones which have warmer character, but perhaps are not as 'detailed' and clean. Definitely the 17CAC35-4 is a very good driver in it's category, but needs complex crossover and some extra attention in it's implementation.

[@sabbathAndy]

I just found this channel and omg! Subscribed immediately! I so wish we had ppl like you locally so i could bring all my speakers for tweaking ! 😂👍

[@m4db4t]

Dont do it. For the price of the capacitors and cables he would put in, you could just buy a speaker with better drivers and a better crossover (not just the "quality" of the parts, the design haa far more influence)

[@Justwantahover]

5:09 From Jaycar electronics Australia, just the large inductor by itself would cost $30. Caps, like $10 each for the big yellow jobs. You would be looking at nearly $100 each for the crossover in parts, from here.

[@shabazz18]

Without watching, I bet a $1 I won't be surprised that the $4k speaker is a rip off.

[@aarondavis6569]

Funny, I got Revel M16s used for not much more than the Wharfedales, and the owner did exactly the mods mentioned here to the caps on the crossover. Guess I lucked out.

[@JukeboxAlley]

These type of videos never get old and me being too over analytical i love to know what the high end stuff compared to the average stuff is made of which alot of people overlook or are new and just lack the knowledge.

[@rony6482]

Thank you Wow what a crazy world, now I understand why it's worth investing in DIY and not buying expensive brands, I've been understanding for years, quality doesn't cost much more but it's always worth checking

[@drazenbabich]

Wharfedale is still the company which is serious about speaker build, applying the old school, proven techniques to the modern build expected these days. Have had their D11.2 and D11.4 for close to 4 years now and never looked back. Previously a pair of 9.3. For the price, you will hardly find any better than Wharfies, in general.

[@paulfisher8753]

Got the D9.1, D12.1 and EVO4.2, all of them great speakers for the money. They see off speakers that are a lot more expensive...

[@mauritsvw]

Yes, the Diamond series has always been excellent value for money. Got the 9.5 and 11.4 and both sound very good, especially for their price.

[@babolababs4732]

@@mauritsvw The 11.4 is magical, isn't it? Both in performance and appearance departments point of view. A truly special speaker. I haven't met anyone yet who didn't sing praises for it. Enjoy!

[@mauritsvw]

@@babolababs4732 Yes, a wonderful speaker!

[@kaunas888]

I have the Wharfedales and like them. They make a pleasant budget system with a Rotel amp.

[@MrBeblis]

I would love to see a 50k speaker disected..

[@Bertram-se2cu]

Hello, I own the Diamond 10.1 and really like it. It's exactly the sound I expect and am happy with. I run it on a tube amplifier with 2x8 watts and it plays really great. Thanks for the comparison. greetings from Germany

[@wenc8796]

Every stock crossover unit you’ve come across regardless of how beefy they look, you priced them out at around $10-$20 in parts and add “probably made in China”. GR DIY kit with only 2 ploy caps, 2 resistors, 2 wires and binding posts = $258... 🤷‍♂️

[@dannyrichie9743]

The base level X-LS Encore is only $249. It uses US made air core Copper coils that are 16 gauge, and caps from a US company. The internal wire is made in the US and is four 9's pure Copper. And that includes the drivers that are top notch level too. And they don't come from China either. I also design product lines for many companies and I am used to dealing with many companies in China. So I know the companies that make a lot of those parts, and what they cost. Some of them make some pretty nice parts too, but they are very inexpensively made.

[@arena_rock_man9030]

@@dannyrichie9743Isn't the $249 just for the components, not including the cabinets? Cabinets are and additional $150 are they not Danny?

[@dannyrichie9743]

@@arena_rock_man9030 Correct.

[@robertw.1499]

I used to be a mobile DJ. Bought a Wharfedale sytem, four 18 inch sub-wooders and two tops, each with 10 inch mids and corresponding tweeters. Fantastic system with brilliant sound. Wharfedale make good value for money gear 👏 4000 dollar speakers and have to change so many components 😢

[@jamesvanwickler9062]

Do you ever listen to the speakers after they've been upgraded? Or compare one speaker that's been upgraded with the same other that's in original configuration? The videos give the impression that once the updates are made and measurements taken, your job is done and it's shipped back to the customer.

[@billd9667]

Valid question. Does boosting a certain frequency push a driver into distortion at that range? It surely will change the character of the sound. Will it change for the better? I applaud the changes in resonance control, impedance and off-axis response, but am not sure about extending a driver's output beyond a point where it's "comfortable".

[@mfr58]

Exactly the question I was going to ask. Measurements, as Danny says himself, aren't the whole story. I do wonder whether, for example, the metal dome tweeter sounds too much of a good thing, when it's level is brought up, even though it looks better on the graph....

[@dannyrichie9743]

Some I do and some I don't. I have spent a LOT of time comparing components and learning what the audible effects are. So I know what happens when I use a certain type of part somewhere in the circuit. So I don't have to re-listen and re-validate every time.

[@dannyrichie9743]

@@billd9667 I never let a driver play into a range that will cause a problem.

[@mfr58]

@@dannyrichie9743 Yes, experience counts for much. Cheers.

[@janetmorris6792]

I am quite happy with the Wharfdale's I Have, For 4k I could get a complete valve amp and super speakers, My Dad had Wharfdales in the sand filled Sherwood enclosure's (a 1 Cubic Yard Box with air flow limiter in the rear) The proper test to see how good they are play Bach's Toccata and Fuge

[@wood1y]

I don't expect the need to change a resistor on a 4k$ speaker tbh.

[@raphofthehills4405]

What's wrong with those ceramic resistors ? (what he calls "sand cast")

[@dwh3480]

Thanks for your video and works, by watching your video I dropped my idea for buying few thousand dollars speakers. feeling they are 20% price for the sound, 80% for the marketing. I will continue DIY speakers. Thank you.

[@piotr2951]

Its engineering not marketing

[@mrrocknroll84]

You have to listen to it. Every speaker measures flat these days. There's a reason why revel padded down the tweeter. You're just trying to sell your upgrade kit. The small wharfdale will be good, but it won't come close to the revel. It's like trying to compare a Toyota Yaris gr to a Porsche 911.

[@MarkoLampret]

I had the Wharfedale Diamond 9.2. compared it to many similarly priced speakers and they are definitely on of the best bookshelf speakers for that money.

[@sameshitdifferentcolour4197]

did you had any issue with foam surroundings of 9.2. did you need refoaming?

[@mollygrubber]

Ironically, by the age most of us can afford these "high end" speakers, our ears have degraded to the point you really can't tell the difference between $4000 and $400. I feel sorry for anybody who buys this garbage at these prices. OK, maybe not sorry, mostly amused.

[@generalawareness101]

Spot on. Due to age I have lost my hearing down to around 13khz where it steeply drops off and by 15khz there is nothing you can do that will let me hear. I used to have up to 22khz hearing a few decades ago.

[@PLF...]

And young people still listen to music through these horrible airpods... High-end sound sure will be fucked for ages.

[@utub1473]

I don't know how much you killed your hearing in your youth. Most people should still easily be able to tell the difference by the time they can afford $4000 speakers.

[@itzlbritzl23]

This is not a linear equation… losing half the frequency range, means still being able to hear 9 of 10 octaves.

[@shipsahoy1793]

👍 Nice presentation. I think the key take away here is that you can’t totally depend on speaker system manufacturers to optimally design any product regardless of its price, so most products can be improved by design alterations or upgrading crossover components at the very least. I have done crossover upgrades on every speaker system I own, it just goes with the territory. 👨🏻 Cheers!🥳

[@ItsaRomethingeveryday]

I have a set of wharfedale bookshelf speakers, they are older and made of real wood

[@FenderStrat19711]

Your technical expertise and analysis of speakers is amazing and awesome! Thank you for posting the video!

[@sjfarrell2.0]

Having to upgrade 4000k speakers is insane. They should be perfect as is 😂

[@cy4624]

More like $500 speakers with $3500 for the name badge but the status is what drives sales of so called "luxury products" even though many who spend 5 figures on cables would call $4000 too cheap for them.

[@practicalguy973]

I've been designing speakers for years at the DIY level, I've got lots of crossover components, using the same value but different type like Metallized Polyester Film Capacitor vs Silver film Metallized Polyester Film Fast Capacitor does change the sound in a very minor way. When critical listening it can be making things more detailed but might be more harsh or sharp. I would leave $4000 Revel speakers as is if you like that sound. The engineer has designed the crossover that way for a reason. At that cost they can put whatever caps they want. They did not.

[@IliyaOsnovikov]

If you listen to them they are very good already, almost perfect.

[@IliyaOsnovikov]

@@cy4624 How many berillium tweeters can you buy for $500?

[@tunckaresioglu6758]

I've Wharfedale Diamond 9.2 & did a upgrade myself, first of all 1 cm thick rubber lining, better inner cables and a bit of crossover cutoff lowering in favour of tw; and yess, these sing very much alive and detailed!

[@mikef5659]

Even Andrew Jones admits the difference is speakers is almost always the cabinet cost

[@daysandwords]

In Australia, used hi-fi gear has almost no value, but particularly the stuff that was considered only OK in the first place - so those Diamond 9.1 speakers, you'd be able to pick up a set of them for like $180 AU, EASY. Like that would be no negotiation, nothing.

[@miharoskar]

Wharfedale produces very balanced speakers. Like you've said, they cheap-out on SOME parts, but that's to be expected. I've just upgraded the crossover and soldered wires to drivers on "new" Lintons and difference is astounding. They retained what I liked and added what I missed. I don't think I can get that sound for double the price of Lintons.

[@charlesclifton1006]

WAS THAT A GR RESEARCH UP-GRADE OR ONE YOU DESIGNED?

[@miharoskar]

@@charlesclifton1006 Just repalaced a HF capacitor with Jantzen Silver of the same value and a Mundorf resistor. Easy job

[@albertstern6343]

@@miharoskar Was it easy to access the cross over board?

[@miharoskar]

@@albertstern6343 yes, it's mounted on the bottom of the chassis - unscrewed it and and left the wires as they were as they're long enough to get the access. You need small fat Phillips screwdriver.

[@akr01364]

When I first started my audiophile journey, I upgraded from the Panasonic and Cambridge soundworks setup to a Yamaha separates amp kit and a pair of $2k B&W speakers (20 years ago, don't recall the model numbers). At first and not knowing burn in I thought, great, these things are loved by the magazines. Violas sounded thin and tinny and 80's rock sound loud and still empty. Without GR research vids I sought out a little help from a friend that had been listening to music at the higher end since the mid 70s to find a curse word that rhymes with "wool chit" come from his mouth. My stuff looked great, the amps had some snazzy software. But, the parts inside were pretty much the same as my old gear. I returned the amps and took his advice and tracked down a Rotel amp and a pair of used Legacy Audio bookshelves. What a sea change.

[@DIYHiFiLife]

I recently purchased a pair of Revel M126be speakers at well below MSRP price. These speakers sound superb with SOTA low distortion electronics (Purifi, Benchmark). I also own Warfdale 11.2 speakers which are nice but do not sound anywhere as good as the Revels. I did a measurment in my living room which you can see in an ASR thread on this video. You can also see measurements in the Audioholic's review for the M126be which includes measurements directly from Mark Glazer at Revel. All these graphs look exceptionally flat. I enjoy Danny's videos, but he is straining credulity when he equates Revels with the Warfdales. Do your research and of course listen as well to be an informed listener. Also, the Audiholics review clearly measures and states that the Revel are "8 ohm speakers". I find it troubling that Danny states these are 4 ohm speakers and throws into doubt his testing regimin.

[@dannyrichie9743]

Of coarse in stock form the Revel should should better. It uses higher quality parts. It uses all air core inductors, poly caps (cheap ones, but poly caps), and no ferromagnetic parts in the connections. The Wharfdale's use an iron core inductor on the woofer and electrolytic caps. It also has steel nuts and terminals on the connections. However, if you upgrade both of them to high quality parts then the difference will be just as I said. Some will prefer the Revel, some will prefer the Wharfdale, and it will be very close. And my measurements of the Revel model clearly shows a minimal dip to 4.9 ohms. It is what it is. There is no doubt.

[@DIYHiFiLife]

@@dannyrichie9743 From the Audioholics review: "The above graphs show the electrical behavior of the M126Be speakers. Revel specifies the M126Be speakers as having a nominal impedance of 8 ohms, and that looks to be correct. The minima occur just above 200 Hz at 6 ohms."

[@dannyrichie9743]

@@DIYHiFiLife His curve looks just like mine but higher in impedance. The difference is mine is measured right at the binding posts and has been corrected for the impedance of the leads. They probably measured theirs with a long speaker cable on it.

[@unclemarksdiyauto]

I have to agree with you! Too bad we can’t hear them side by side in person. Spending aprox $600 for a pair of speakers that preform close to 4300! I would go for the $600! It’s a no brainer! The only thing I can’t reference is actually hearing them. I also don’t have $4300 for a pair of speakers.

[@1allstarman]

$4000 for speakers that need to be upgraded ?

[@Dutchamp]

Yes that is very common. Why spend so much in the first place. There are good low priced speakers. I would go for those warfdales and upgrade then. Lots of good brands let there stuff made in low losts countries with lame quality management. That's why I made speakers and amps myself. Then you spend not so much and over rule expensive brands.

[@Joe-yi8xj]

I mean you can find a used pair of the slightly older revel performa m106 for like $400-1500 depending on condition. Really fantastic speakers in the right room

[@dannyrichie9743]

You mean this one? kzbin.info/www/bejne/opqxfIKkg86hidU Yuck.

[@craigjohnchronicles2504]

I have a pair of M106 speakers paired with a little REL HT1003 sub. Good lord, this little rig sounds phenomenal. The point of diminishing returns begins at the M106.

[@johncollins5552]

Wharfedale should hire you, like yesterday!

[@bellrobert1978]

Wharfdale are great value in the UK. I prefer dome tweeters so would probably prefer those.

[@roccobruno8027]

That's insane given the cost disparity.

[@bjs7442]

A very interesting video and I learned a lot about speakers. As a consumer and not someone who thinks about taking them apart and upgrading them I am not surprised that upgrading a cheaper speaker would pay dividends as they are trying to hit a price point in a competitive market. However a $4000 pair I would expect to have better quality parts already fitted and the sound does the talking. It proves that a glossy finish and size does not mean value for money and I am sure if you go up the Wharfdale model range the Revels will be shown to be what they really are.

[@984francis]

Those grooves are called kerfs.

[@adam872]

I like Wharfedale speakers. I've had a set of Diamond 8's for some time and they've been great.

[@Chris-nd5se]

The speaker drivers in the more expensive Revels would be expected to be a lot better than in the Wharfedales so even after putting new subcaps in to the crossovers of both speakers I would expect the Revels to still sound a lot better. You generally get what you pay for in audio although you do get diminishing returns.

[@jimji2774]

Man taking apart the $4000 speaker and fixing it up - pretty funny! I am going to check out your other videos and wish you had a shop near me as I would no doubt be buying something you made up yourself. Nice job.

[@ZYZZXX]

you're splitting hairs on the Revel, no need to spend extra on that one. I get it you have a business, however, there is more chance of damage if you make those changes.

[@ville-mattivepsalainen5068]

For first sorry for my english, but how about the power response? This combination of the drivers is seriously affected by it. I would measure 0-180 deg and then simulate those crossover changes.

[@MrChristopherMolloy]

Harman was once notorious for rebadging it's Harman Kardon into Lexicon and Infinity into Revel products, with only pennies-worth of electronic & cosmetic differences.

[@FSXgta]

and now Samsung owns the Harman group, and I think we all know Samsung does not care about good sound.

[@MrChristopherMolloy]

@@FSXgta Yep, and they and Harman dominate car audio.

[@terrywinningham5405]

They dominate the OEM car audio business not the aftermarket.

[@MrChristopherMolloy]

@@terrywinningham5405 I'll take your word for it. Although I'm sure that aftermarket represents millions of dollars of business, I'd wager that it's a small fraction of the OEM business. I personally don't know too many people upgrading car audio these days. I'm not sure what kind of presence they have today, but I'm fairly certain Harman's Infinity and JBL have aftermarket products for sale.

[@terrywinningham5405]

@@MrChristopherMolloy They do JBL and Infinity amplifiers and speakers, similar to home theater in a box. Packages with amps and subwoofers with an enclosure. Typically at the discount houses.

[@Dutchamp]

Your absolutely right I would upgrade the warfdale what a nice response. Expensive speakers.... That's why I made my own speakers scanspeak illuminator. Nice honist review 🔊