42 Things About Helm's Deep Only Die-hard Fans Know | LOTR Explained

[@factorfantasyweekly]

*COMMUNITY NOTES:* 1. Eowyn does have her lines to Aragorn, but they happen at Dunharrow. 2. The water was diverted from the Fords of Isen because the Ents used it to flood Isengard. If anyone else notices something I missed drop it in the comments! Because I go chronologically, these things will most likely be covered once I get there. I think the Ents episode will be next week. 👀

[@keithtorgersen9664]

A brief note on the history of Dunlendings- Faramir describes 3 classes of men in discussion with Frodo- the high men akin to the high elves, the men of Numenor who had the light of knowledge passed down from the Eldar who in turn received it from the Valar. This is meant to convey sophistication and reason. Then there were the middle men, the men of twilight, akin to the Rohirrim and the men of Dale. What these men lacked in sophistication, they had great heart and courage in battle, and had passion. And lastly the men of “darkness”, meant to convey that they had no sophistication and culture to speak of, were looked down upon by the latter two groups. This is where the Dunlendings fall into, and it’s largely because of this class difference that the Dunlendings resent the Rohirrim, and because Gondor gave land to the Rohirrim and displaced the Dunlendings.

[@jeremyg8286]

This trilogy shows how you can make great movies by staying true to the source material but also not copying it 1 for 1. You can take some liberties while still remaining true to the books. Best movie trilogy ever made imo, and it’s not all that close.

[@charlesbritzman501]

Favorite exchange at Helm’s Deep (in the book) : before the big battle , Legolas and Gimli were walking the walls and ramparts of the Deep, and Gimli stamps the top of a wall with his feet, gauging its solidness, and says, “The rock here is good. . .Give me a year and one hundred of my kin, and we would make this into a place that armies would break upon like water”. tingles and tears.Gimli had so many of the best lines in the Trilogy.

[@MatthewCaunsfield]

Legolas might be champion surfer but Gimli is quite the biologist, he knows all about the existence of the nervous system!

[@Belphengos]

Actually, the concept of the nervous system extends back a lot further in history than you might think. Aristotle believe that nerves centered in the heart, while later medieval philosophers came to the conclusion that it centered in the brain.

[@MatthewCaunsfield]

@Belphengos True, just surprising to think of Gimli in that company 😉

[@Belphengos]

@@MatthewCaunsfield Oh, absolutely. My point was simply that it isn't as anachronistic as a lot of people seem to think. It isn't like he said "it isn't nuclear physics, Legolas!"

[@MatthewCaunsfield]

@@Belphengos Fair point, although this is the same film which added a paperwork bureaucracy system to the people of Rohan! 😁

[@AlexanderLongacre182]

My favorite part in the book that I wished was in the movie is the relationship that is forged between Éomer and Gimli. Starting with threatening each other, especially over Éomer’s ignorance over Galadriel, Gimli promising to fight Éomer that if he saw Galadriel and did not find her to be the most fairest of all, they fight side by side at the Deep, then later Éomer sees both Galadriel and Arwen and comments to Gimli that while Galadriel is indeed fair he finds Arwen more beautiful and asks if he should be prepared to fight Gimli to which Gimli says something to the effect of “I see why you find her beautiful. I prefer the beauty of the day and you prefer the beauty of the night.” It is a wonderful friendship they develop over the books, and I’m sad it isn’t shown in the movies but I certainly understand why.

[@irena4545]

"You have chosen the Evening; but my love is given to the Morning. And my heart forebodes that soon it will pass away for ever."

[@Steve-c4q]

All part of the overall dumbing down of Gimli into a comic character

[@shiftnative]

@@Steve-c4q I think in this case, we get this cheeky back and forth between legolas and gimli instead

[@nickfoster9350]

I think it prudent (but it really isn't) to mention that the sequence with Shelob, which is roughly at the mid point of "The Return of the King" movie, is actually the final chapter in "The Two Towers" book. Keep up with the awesome work. I absolutely love this kind of content because it gets my imagination running, and keeps the flame I have for reading books, epic fantasy in particular, burning bright.

[@zackp1717]

Fun thing I noticed while reading. During the seige Gimli and Eomer (I think) are fighting in the glittering caves, and Tolkien writes about how being in the caves would give Gimli an advantage to his fighting prowess. I 100% believe this is the inspiration for environmental buffs and debuffs in rpgs. At least, that's immediately what came to mind when reading this chapter

[@davidwright7193]

The poem (where is the horse and the rider…) is Tolkien’s translation of a section of an old English poem from the Exeter book known as the Wanderer. Which as he not only translates for meaning but also updates the poem from the alliterative Anglo-Saxon style into a modern rhyming style while retaining rhythm and meter (including the mid line break). Tolkien wrote this in the same way that Seamus Heany wrote Beowulf.

[@XanderDorn]

The Rohirrim were so desperate, they had to put the "infant" back in "infantry".

[@davidec.4021]

Very nice

[@Twiceborn_by_grace]

When I’m knowingly strong in the Lord I think of the quote, “Is this all you can conjure Sauraman?”

[@ducovanderwoude6971]

12:34 Haleth is also the name of one of the sons of Helm Hammerhand who died in the defence of Edoras in T.A. 2758, his brother being Háma.

[@jimvaiknoras7822]

Aragon’s challenge was always a favorite moment when I was young. I first read Tolkien almost 50 years ago. Thank you for doing this series.

[@factorfantasyweekly]

Read along with me! 📖 Claim “The Two Towers” on Audible *for FREE:* www.audibletrial.com/twotowers 👈 Every free trial supports the channel!

[@clintayers11]

Highlight of my Saturday mornings man love your content!

[@factorfantasyweekly]

Thanks so much!

[@MadinaAhmed90]

I swear! Same! The way I look forward to your videos. I mean no words can describe it

[@rikhuravidansker]

@@factorfantasyweekly The fact the Dunlendings believed Saruman is not because he lied per se, but that he would have been spreading the propaganda of Sauron, who told orcs that elves would eat them (which is a reference to elves in folklore stealing human babies and eating them, and to the Erkling of Germanophone folklore, which seems to mean "elfling,' which would eat children), and burning captives alive does sound like something Anglo-Saxons would do: since Helm Hammerhand accidentally killed Freca over an insult (insults were taken seriously, but he could have avoided beating the Westmarch petty king and king of Dunland up), and Theoden was pursuing a non-interventionist policy under Grima, it is possible that Theoden introduced reforms, meaning that Grima advocated for rules of war and for Dunlending civil rights!

[@Ryan-pj5cx]

I enjoy hearing someone who is so captivated by fiction that they get caught up and say "what really happens" when speaking of the original source material.

[@கணேஷ்கோகுல்]

Thanks for these videos. I have not read the books yet and have watched the movies alone. Through your videos, it is allowing me to get inside the books. It sparked my interest to read the books. Thanks a lot for your detailed analysis each week covering as much detail as possible.

[@bolchinsky]

i recently read the books and saw the movies, i love the book source, but the battle is far greater and better in the movies , that one surprised me .

[@meiketorkelson4437]

How many times did you need to replay the shot of my boy, Haldir, getting shanked? 🤣

[@keithtorgersen9664]

It’s actually pretty important that Eowyn being at Dunharrow, because Theoden has to appoint a leader to act in his stead and Hamas nominates Eowyn as someone who is greatly trusted by the people.

[@TheWanderingFire]

The Elves arriving at Helm's deep threw a lot of book-fans into confusion and annoyance. The confusion actually led to the rumor (and then meme) of _Elvis_ at Helm's Deep. It eventually led to a couple of web pages advertising "Elvis at Helm's Deep" as the latest stop on his " _Return of the King Tour_ " 😂

[@Jerry-Greenly]

I love the movies. That being said, it would have been cool to see the wild men fighting alongside the Uruk-hai and the Uruk-hai bombing the second time.

[@KorithStoneheart]

It bothered me that the rangers of the North weren't there and they were just cut out of the movies completely. where were Aragorn's people?

[@DreadKyller]

27:30 Are you sure that's true? The books seem to imply the Ents caused the water to stop flowing because they redirected it to Isengard to flood it, and once Isengard was flooded they let the water resume it's course.

[@LostHorizons0]

It always felt like too me that the ents did most of the battle in the books and focused so much on them (which I prefer they are more interesting ) the movie imo is just way too different from the book

[@josephdillard9907]

Yes you are right, the Ents gathered the water from every steam or river in the area to flood Isengard.

[@factorfantasyweekly]

Great point! I’m sure this will be addressed once I get to those scenes.

[@Jerry-Greenly]

That’s what I was thinking!

[@jamalcorbin5542]

Happy morning! Quite a fortuitous KZbin scroll! Thank for everything you do, these recaps and comparisons are fantastic!

[@factorfantasyweekly]

Thanks for supporting the channel!

[@abeljones515]

I think it’s possible that the moment between Aragorn and Eowyn where she basically confesses her feelings and wants to fight alongside him is pulled from a similar moment between them as Aragorn and the Grey Company prep to take the path of the dead in Return of the King and much of that was borrowed for this interaction since as you pointed out, Eowyn is at Helms Deep in the movie not at Dunharrow like she is in the books.

[@apostolos1415]

Peter Jackson has Arwen with the army of the elves. Later he change his mind. He also change his mind for the army of the elves, but it was to late, so he removed only Arwen's scenes from the movie

[@Niko-hi5my]

Yep. Without bringing Arwen in they don't really contribute to the plot any more, which makes this change even more annoying

[@armandsriekstins7646]

I can't believe Gimli didn't educate Legolas about orkish nervous system...

[@abeljones515]

I think the reason that no one seems to really care about Legolas pulling Aragorn and Gimli up the wall is because if you pay close attention I’m pretty sure you can see another pair of hands behind Legolas pulling the rope so it’s assumed that multiple people are helping pull them up.

[@Riddlerint1202]

Originally Arwen they had filmed scenes with her but decided that having her around breaks the longing for love thing because she would be with him the whole time

[@rikhuravidansker]

@@Riddlerint1202 Since noblewomen fought in battle when the men were not there, Arwen would have been fighting but at RIVENDELL: all of her deleted scenes would have been appropriate for Rivendell, and it would show people who haven't read the books what the Elves were doing.

[@tapiolautavaara9532]

That was kind of a given, as Tolkine never depicted his immortal elves as somehow hiding mythical cave-troll superpowers within their delicate frame. But that was fixed with Guyladriel, so Legolas could have won this whole battle all by herself, if only she was a fefail. Battle weary Aragorn using one left hand to carry the weight his armored self while holding onto armored Gimli and both of their weapons with his right hand, that's some super-soldier serum shit Captain America gave his thumbs up, but got eventually cut from the film for legal reasons.

[@mevb]

Théoden isn't a coward in the movie, he is just unwilling to risk open war for the sake of his people and before the battle, he shows doubt to that they'll survive as part of his way to recovery from being possessed by Saruman and mentally poisoned by Wormtounge, making it more dramatically. In fact, there was going to be a bit where he gives a rousing speech to the soilders but it downplayed the hopelessnes which killed off the drama before the battle, which is why it was cut even from the Extended Version.

[@rikhuravidansker]

We will see it in the Mithril Edition in 2026.

[@FoolsMasque]

Sending elves to Helm's Deep might seem an unimportant change but it's a huge blunder that contradicts all of the trilogies major themes: the estrangement of the races, the fading and departure of the elves, the Last Alliance being thousands of years ago, and now being the time for Men to rise up and win their own battles. Lothlorien was even isolated from other elves in Middle-Earth making it incomprehensible that they'd fight for Rohan.

[@goldenageofdinosaurs7192]

I always assumed Legolas was just the lead puller of the rope & there were 3 or 4 men behind him pulling as well. I think my mind just added those men, as it would be nigh impossible otherwise.

[@thomaswilliams8270]

Jackson giving the "where is the horse and the rider" poem from Aragorn to Theoden might be my favourite change in his trilogy. Bernard Hill is absolutely phenomenal as Theoden and it's another well taken opportunity for him to display his excellence.

[@falloutfan2502]

Agreed!

[@Steve-c4q]

Bernard Hill is a terrific actor, I would have actually preferred to see him play Denethor, if only for the fact that he looks like could actually be Sean Bean’s father

[@victormena9407]

15:35 :- ...""And Legolas jumps on this shield like a skateboard and totally rides it down the stairs. And he's shooting arrows like a mthrfckr and is seriously really cool, He is wrecking shit"", We all agree that Tolkien wrote that and is absolute true canon

[@scribbleknit]

Hahahaha!

[@enso8762]

The lightning revealing the orcs is terrifying, wish they made it like that.

[@taldynamo8298]

The most shocking thing for me that wasn’t actually a change, was Legolas and Gimli shouting their kill count. I figured that would have been a bit of “Hollywood humor” added. It blows my mind that was actually Tolkien!

[@goldenageofdinosaurs7192]

I’ve got a feeling that he saw plenty of WWI gallows humor while in that war. I’m assuming it’s likely where the ‘kill count’ came from.

[@rikhuravidansker]

@@goldenageofdinosaurs7192 When I read the book, I figured it wasn't a contest, but just them telling each other how many they killed: killing isn't an everyday thing, so hardened soldiers would want to know (although they would not boast, although pre-Christian soldiers, pre-Christian warriors, men-at-arms, and braves, would).

[@gearstudios8383]

I think the film adaptation of this battle was absolutely awesome and the changes made that were not book accurate were epic. My only gripe is the humor type stuff during the battle (shield surfboard) etc 😂

[@jacobnelson9725]

Erkenbrand and his men charged on foot, not horseback. Charging horse down a steep rocky hillside is not a good idea

[@Malfuin]

II came to say just this, but it's already been said👍

[@karthus006]

The horses of Rohan are just built different...

[@angrybarney196]

I think the film depicts theoden calling out gondor's absence is not as a result of him not realizing its his fault and that gondor doesn't know but his ego talking. He knows he was corrupted during that time, he knows that Gondor is preoccupied, he knows they need help, and he knows that he can't fight alone but is driven by his ego of bringing a strong facade which we the audience sees through. It wasn't cowardice but reluctance as a result of guilt from his belief that he allowed all the bad things Saruman committed by being weak. Hence why in the next extended edition Saruman calls him "You are a lesser son of greater sires" to mock him and exploit his guilt as he knows he believes it. These additions just brings a lot to Theoden's character which made his death more glorious.

[@fingolfin7295]

10:11 Eowin's momment with Aragorn isn't entirely "made up", but it happens in a different momment and context. If I recall correctly, it happens in the Return if the King, probably in the second chapter, after Gandalf's departure with Pippin. Aragorn is to go to the Oathbreakers with the grey company, something that Eowin isn't a fan, and they kinda have a back and fort about the valor and glory in the Battle. That's when she says that what she fears the most is to be locked up in a cage and the "they fight beside you because they love you" line.

[@stephaniechristensen6018]

On one level, it works. On another? Eowyn is portrayed well, but Aragorn is scripted as a jerk who engages with her and flirts and seems to be testing the waters rather than fending off her advances and making it clear that he's not going there. That doesn't say much about the character. Aragorn and Arwen had been an item for decades and were engaged; they'd already weathered the panic of her family over the situation and countless long separations. And over decades, they held strong, working toward the day when the Shadow would be vanquished and Aragorn would take up the kingship. He couldn't afford to be wishy-washy about that, as it meant so much both to his future with Arwen and also (I think) to both vindicating the sacrifices so many made for him over the years and proving himself in the eyes of Elrond, the person he probably (and with good reason) respected and loved most in the world after her. Another reason why Jackson's version of timid, unsure Aragorn doesn't work. After all that...after all that work...after all that stress and worry...after all that anguish and soul-searching...and they're just going to suddenly break up and Aragon is (almost straight off) going to flirt with another woman? And the only thing that keeps things from going further is...events? Necessity? Elrond's sudden about-face and intervention? No. Seriously! The story of Aragorn and Arwen can't be allowed to take center stage, but there is a right and wrong way to do this story. Aragorn is Estel--Hope embodied. That is what has kept him going for so many years and through so many hardships. He wouldn't have survived without that burning sense of...well...mission and the relationship wouldn't have survived without an immense devotion to each other. It's based on the perspective of an author who understood war and the constraints relationships are subject to in wartime and on characters that come from a much more elven than human perspective, so their relationship doesn't look like storybook romance in its classic form as most people understand it. But that's also what makes the story unique. No. If it were me, I'd give Aragorn and Arwen some time at Rivendell, but they'd spend much of it looking ahead, at what it will take to defeat the Shadow. It's daunting and they're both afraid. But this is where we could get in some dialogue that really shows how long and hard they've worked towards this and the toll it's taken on them being separated and trying to do their part in fighting a War that has been going on as long as they've been alive and trying to make those they love happy when they know their marriage will separation from her family until beyond the circles of the world...whenever that is or whatever that looks like. Everything is finally starting to come together to a crisis point where their dreams will either be dashed or realized and they're terrified. But they're also very much in love. For Aragorn, there is no one but Arwen. If he'd let himself entertain other possibilities or be daunted by the sacrifices their future would entail, he'd have been scared off long ago. So he has great compassion for Eowyn, but she doesn't understand. He's taken, and because Arwen is his beloved? He's not going to settle for anyone else. That's what the script needs to get across. Jackson's version, again, relies on gimmicks and occurrences and a lot of forced drama to sort things out happily in the end, rather than character, maturity, and tough choices the characters own.

[@mevb]

Gimli along with Legolas and Aragorn (in the movie) knew the distinctions between orcs and Uruks becsuse they battled them at Amon Hen. How they get the names, it's a mystery as it's not stated how but assuming maybe they heard them shouting the term Uruk-Hai during the battle. We, the audience don't have to know as we already are told about this earlier when Saruman talks to Lurtz and having to state HOW the guys know, would just tell the same info twice which is unnecessary in film.

[@keithtorgersen9664]

Nah, there’s no reason to think that Legolas and Gimli would hear “Urukhai” and automatically think that’s what they’re called. But asking the kinds of questions like “how would Gimli know” is actually important because it helps build continuity.

[@mitchelmodine9197]

4:29 I hate it when a forest suddenly appears. Don’t you? 😂

[@tapiolautavaara9532]

They always do that when you least expect them trees to pop out of nowhere, cheeky bastards.

[@MrKurtisLloyd]

I love that Tolkien made it so that the forests could walk because he was mad at Shakespeare for MacBeth’s claim that the “forests would walk” and it was just MacDuff and his men wearing bushes as disguises.

[@Emily_39524]

I don't care if the elves showing up is not book accurate, it was f*ing epic in the movie! Also did you know that Gamling means old person in Swedish

[@KissSlowlyLoveDeeply-pm2je]

In the real world armies are not just a mass of soldiers appearing as a wall, they have outriders and scouts constantly keeping watch and communicating to the commanders.

[@mevb]

Éowyn's line "You do not command the others to stay. They fight beside you because you they would not be parted from you, because they love you." is in the book but she says it when she talks to Aragorn at Dunharrow as he prepare to leave for the Path of the Dead. The reason the woman and children are at Helm's Deep and not at Dunharrow is to give the some weight to the battle. If the purpose were to just to take over a fortress because the enemy wants to take control of it, there's no excitment but when it's about survival of the human race e.a. the woman and children you feel for our heores and want them to win and the enemies don't. Eowyn was needed to build up her character for The Return of the King (similarly to Arwen who have a little precense in the story in the book, and to have women characters bigger in the movies). Originally, there was a subplot of the Uruk-Hai managing to get into the Glittering Caves and while the women and children flees deeper in to the passage leading to the mountains as Gamling says in the movie, Eowyn stays behind to help Morwen, the mom, as she was pregnant and would give birth at that moment. Eowyn fends of a couple of Uruks with her swoerd protecting the mother and the kids Eothain and Freda. This bit was cut as Michael Horton say in the post-production commentary that it became to specific for who the men and elves fought for, plus it was done for time and pacing.

[@simonkoster]

Many of the changes were a natural consequence of previously made changes, even the Elves showing up was foreshadowed by Elrond's and Galadriel's telepathic session earlier. PJ also gave us some of Gimli's funniest moments, thanks also to John Rhys-Davis perfect comedic timing.

[@stephaniechristensen6018]

I wish it weren't just demeaning slapstick.

[@The_real_Arovor]

I don’t like the elves at Helms Deep, but I really hate that they didn’t show us the caves Gimli ended up.

[@BigT2664]

Unfortunately my daughter's mother and I split when she was four. When she was 6 we ended up living in the same apartment building. She would come over at 8:00 every evening and we would read. The first book we chose was The Hobbit, and we followed it up with the Lord of the Rings. She absorbed the stories and knew them backwards and forwards. When the movies came out we went to them together. She was 10 when the Two Towers hit theaters. When the elves appeared and came marching up, my 10-year-old daughter shot to her feet and yelled at the screen, "No! That's Wrong! There were no elves at Helm's Deep!" She sat back down with her arms angrily folded across her chest to a smattering of applause and some murmured, "She's right, she's right."

[@WilliamKennedy-cg3ff]

I believe Haleth is the name of Helm Hammerhands second son. His first son was called Hama. So the name come from Tolkien but from centuries earlier.

[@Mr_Timi1]

Wait you're saying we should just be happy he didn't scerw it up more... LOL!

[@Seriously_Unserious]

This review was a great breakfast watch, before I resume writing the final 3 chapters of the first book of my own epic story.

[@TheWanderingFire]

But now what will you do for Second Breakfast?

[@irena4545]

No, didn't _have_ to bolster the defenders with elves because he didn't _have_ to reduce their number to three hundred in the first place. Nor did he _have_ to make the battle such a centrepiece at the expense of other major events as well as pacing. Kudos to him for replacing an unimportant character of Erkenbrand with a major one, though it came with a cost. Now, saying that we should be glad that Arwen got cut out, it's like asking if I'd prefer a broken leg or a broken arm. Sure, no-one would be happy about Xenarwen, but she would have been consistent with Arwen's portrayal as a badass in FotR. By cutting her out, we received Arwen-the-waning-lily-out-of-the-blue in RotK instead, and Éowyn got relegated to mothering random kids all the time for no good reason. Yeah, I'm feeling so much better /s.

[@Niko-hi5my]

Friendship is one of the major themes of Tolkien's story. So leaving out Gimli's and Aragorn's friendship with Eomer is actually a big thing.

[@WardenWolf]

The biggest change is that, in the book, the battle was already basically won by the time Gandalf and the Rohirrim showed up. Their arrival just sealed the deal. It wasn't nearly as hopeless as it was in the books, and Helm's Deep proved itself a mighty fortress. It was also better explained what happened to the fleeing Urukhai. Not just a "They ran into a forest and there was rustling." Nope, they ran into a massive army of Ents disguised as a forest, and, RIP.

[@tapiolautavaara9532]

Huorns, the barely sentient, animated trees Ents were herding, as huorns were dangerous and unpredictable.

[@victoriakidd-cromis1124]

I know it is not accurate to the books, but I really like Haldir's arrival with a huge company of elves. It gives a nod to the history between elves and men. And shows that the elves are aware of what is at stake in the war against Sauron. I say Sauron because by this time Saruman may think he's acting alone but he is truly doing what Sauron wants which is to keep Rohan from coming to Gondor's aid. Haldir's death is shown to pull at one's heart strings. He died for the principle of the thing: that elves and men are allies in the war against evil.

[@josiahprieto3733]

When I first read this book I was a little disappointed that it was only in the movie that the elves arrive to aid Rohan. They why Haldir says they are there to honor their alliance by fighting and dying together is just awesome line and detail to the movie. I absolutely loved the battle of Helms Deep for the movie. It made an excellent finale to the movie.

[@keithtorgersen9664]

One of the rare instances of Gimli speaking a full sentence in the dwarf language. “Baruk Khazad! Khazad ai meinu!” His battlecry as he dove down on a horde of Uruk-hai

[@TheWanderingFire]

@@keithtorgersen9664 Axes of the Dwarves! The Dwarves are upon you!

[@falloutfan2502]

Good summary. I always wonder why movie makers make these changes - whether it's their own liberty with the material, or for prudence. Introducing Erkenbrand into the movie would have been either time-consuming or abrupt, as it is somewhat in the books anyhow. Having Eomer ride to save the say made more sense, given the actors and introduced characters you had in the movie at that point. But other changes, like the worg attack, having the elves show up, etc. seem like unnecessary changes made just because the producer can. Not necessarily a bad thing, but some of it seems over the top and I wonder why.

[@jawstrock2215]

Money, time, pacing, the MOLD. Producers/studio breathing on their neck, with lots of suggestions...

[@Anakunus]

Wow, I had totally forgotten that scene with Legolas and Gimli after the battle was over. It makes Legolas seem incredibly petty and a sore loser, shooting an enemy that was obviously already dead (I mean, it had an axe sticking from its head) and claiming it was still alive. I am surprised that Jackson made such a change, since up to that point, Legolas had been shown to be a very likeable character. I definitely prefer the book version.

[@jonnyreb3032]

Point of order, Erkinbrand charges down the cliff slop ewith infantry, 1000 in a shiled wall. Only Gandaulf is mounted. They were the infantry driven back from the Battle at the fords of Isen and could not reach the Deep before the battle, because they were on foot and had to Rally back together.

[@brianjohnson5272]

I think some of the changes were great... The elves coming to honor old treaties brought a tear to my eye on the 1st watch before extended editions. If i could ask Tolkien 1 thing id ask if that was something he'd be ok with.

[@jawstrock2215]

I doubt it. It would have been better to be the Grey Company, but we didn't get an introduction to them. Or the twins of Elron. (Who came with the Dunedain). I get it from a movie making point of view, the actor is already on the roaster, elves are already introduced, and are seen as great archer...And they wanted some group to give back some hope but yeah, it makes no sense. They were on foot too...

[@maisaparviainen3357]

Great timing when I just watched War of the Rohirrim 😂

[@vaggos2003]

Have you seen Random Film Talks' video about the differences between the Extended and the Theatrical versions of The Two Towers?

[@Baelor-Breakspear]

Erkenbrand is the coolest name In Tolkein

[@JohnnyWalkerKat]

God damn i never realize that the forest appear out of thin air in the movies until now.

[@Welverin]

0:49 Almost had Arwen as well!

[@fristi61]

0:26 The weird duplicate Legolas who is riding on the white horse next to Aragorn is actually a recolorized Arwen. The real Legolas is riding just behind her. Peter Jackson did shoot Arwen at Helm's Deep, she was just edited out. I think much of Peter Jackson's changes throughout the second book (Arwen's necklace, the elf batallion at Helm's Deep, Eowyn's greater role) all need to be understood as part of a broader push for Aragorn's love story of which the resolution at Helm's Deep was cut out last minute. Sure, the Elves also fill out the action scenes and that's cool but it's not the original reason they were included.

[@jachyra9]

It's dumb and antithetical to Tolkien's intentions no matter how it's rationalized.

[@fristi61]

@@jachyra9 I'm not really interested in making a value judgement one way or another. I just think it's interesting to reverse-engineer the thought process regardless.

[@b.elzebub9252]

I understand why they gave some of Théoden's lines and actions to Aragorn in the movie tbh. They wanted this to be a moment in which Aragorn starts coming into his own as a leader and King. They needed some kind of arc for him leading up to becoming King Elessar. At first he's being naïve about leadership. Aragorn thinks Théoden is being naïve about the 10.000 Uruk Hai coming their way. But Théoden reprimands him for saying such a thing in front of his already wavering defenders. Then later we see the roles more or less reversed between the two. Aragorn seems take his first steps into the role of leader/King when Théoden seems to disappear. One might even argue that a shrewd old fox like Théoden does this on purpose to sort of lure and prod Aragorn into a position of leadership? I.e. he leaves a power vacuum for a moment hoping to see Aragorn fill it and allow him to grown more confident with his destiny of becoming King of Gondor? He might have been testing Aragorn a bit in that moment?

[@georgewilson2575]

Perhaps the best example of Jackson's lack of storytelling skills. It's visually stunning as much of Jackson's LotR is, but the unnecessary bloat with the elves, the terrible dialogue between Legolas and Gimli, and Legolas surfing the stairs foreshadowed the nonsense he would give us in the Hobbit movies.

[@RoboSteave]

Love the books, love the movies, and love these. Thanks, Gibby. As for me, Helm's Deep is the greatest movie battle in movies, certainly medieval battles. Better than Pelennor Field.

[@Steve-c4q]

And yet for die hard book fans that’s part of the problem, Pelennor Field is supposed to be the greatest battle of the age, Helms Deep, although a heroic stand, is only supposed to be a side event. There isn’t even anyone from Mordor or Gondor involved. I think they built it up for the movie because they had built Saruman up as the main antagonist of the first two movies, so his defeat needed to be more climactic.

[@RoboSteave]

@@Steve-c4q It may well be the scale of the Pelennor Field battle that hurts it cinematically. Helm’s Deep is tightly contained whereas PF isn’t. At HD, we see plenty of footage of three of our heroes fighting together, plus two of our other heroes are working together to fight an enemy that is present and visible. The PF battle has none of this. Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli aren’t even there for most of the battle, arriving at the end to do just a little fighting. Gandalf does a little fighting, but mostly works to rally the troops. Likewise, Merry and Pippin are split up, off doing separate things. Add to that HD takes place at night in the rain while PF takes place on a nice, sunny day. Oh, and HD has an explosive blowing stuff up. So, all in all, PF may be bigger and more important, but HD is better to watch in a movie. Bigger is not necessarily better.

[@seanbohannon]

It always bothered me how Jackson has all kinds of dialog about retreating to Helm's Deep. This was actually strategically offensive as the fortress would have threatened Saruman's logistical lines heading east. The move forced battle while allowing Rohan the force multiplier of fortifications.

[@thetacticalaccountant]

8:36 Butt wouldn’t have Aragorn Legalos and Gimli have encountered Uruk-Kai when the Fellowship got split up? But I forget if that actually happened in the books. Will have to go back to your video!

[@jawstrock2215]

I think they didn't fight, but only found Boromir dead with a bunch of uruk around him.

[@timmellor2599]

I think the film Helm's Deep is a great scene for a film, even if the book isn't so dominated by it. It kind of mirrors the final battle at Minis Tirith as the free men fight the forces of evil (including at this stage Saruman's army). The shield surfing is egregious, but nothing to what Legolas does in the Battle of the Five Armies film! Overall, it gets an 8/10

[@jpe1]

quick question: which towers are the "two towers" of the title? I was discussing this with friends, it seems reasonably certain that one is Orthanc, I argue that the other is Minas Morgul, but some of my friends say Barad-dûr, others, Cirith-ungol, and one argued for Minas Tirith(!).

[@factorfantasyweekly]

The only way I’ve ever heard it is that it’s Orthanc and Barad-dur. Because the essence of the movie is that it’s about Saruman’s partnership with the Eye (which would be at Barad-dur). In the movie at least I believe Saruman has a whole monologue about this (it might be an extended edition scene only), where he even mentions the power of the two towers combined and Peter Jackson shows Orthanc and Barad-dur.

[@jpe1]

@ my argument for Orthanc and Minas Morgul being the two towers is that those are the ones where action takes place in the book. In fact, Tolkien wrote (at the end of _The Fellowship of the Ring_ ) “Here ends the history of the first part of the War of the Ring. The second part is called The Two Towers, since the events recounted in it are dominated by Orthanc, the citadel of Saruman, and the fortress of Minas Morgul, that guards the secret entrance to Mordor; it tells of the deeds and perils of all the members of the now sundered Fellowship, until the coming of the Great Darkness.”

[@factorfantasyweekly]

That makes sense! Considering Minas Morgul isn’t really introduced in the films until RotK, it makes sense Peter Jackson would change the Two Towers to be Orthanc and Barad-dur instead.

[@jawstrock2215]

This is an age old questions now. There are so many answers. One is even: Orthanc, and the tower of Cirith Ungol after Shelob's lair, as it's the 2 towers that provides the last obstacles for both path

[@Wally480]

In the movies, the Uruk-Hei make their debut at the end of Fellowship at Amon-Hen. So, when Gimli is informing Theoden. I don't think the Uruks are common knowledge yet. Not a big deal, just wanted to point that out. I still think the books version was better lol

[@BigT2664]

Interesting comment, but I disagree. Eomer and his men had already battled bands of the Uruk-Hai on several occasions. In fact he had been banished because Theoden after his son's death and under the influence of Wormtongue pulled all forces back to Edoras. Eomer had disagreed and was banished from Edoras. So instead he and the men loyal to him took it upon themselves to protect the land and people.

[@Wally480]

@BigT2664 this is a good point. And something I admittedly forgot. I suppose my only thought might be that theodin. He doesn't remember because of being under wormtongues spell. But still, by that point, the rest of Edores would know

[@MrJakobMovies]

Gamling means old person in Swedish *flies away*

[@milosen6744]

I always fast-forward past the Battle of Helms Deep. It's just painful to watch! I've seen the scene once and that's enough!

[@BlueSunYoutube]

Justice for Hama

[@reeceemms1643]

I do wonder though why did they choose to include the Elves at Helms Deep. My biggest guess is because 300 soldiers vs 10'000 soldiers would probably look unbelievable so threw in a 1000 Elves to possibly make it look a little more believable. Also possibly because it looks moral boosting seeing 1000 elves marching to help. He probably also wanted to use it as a homage to the battle of the Last alliance. Haldir does say that an alliance was once formed between Elves and men long ago and they are there to honor that alliance. Also I would sell my soul to see the 6 hour version of this siege which included Arwen and Eowen fighting. Edit: just watched on yeah it seems that it was to just bolster the ranks at Helms Deep.

[@AJ0223]

Soul not sole and unfortunately you maybhave sold it already and forgotten

[@reeceemms1643]

@@AJ0223come on would you not want to see the six hour cut.

[@AJ0223]

@@reeceemms1643 it's not that I'm not interested in extra footage per se, but I think the idea of arwen in eowyn fighting in helms deep is such a slight against the source material that it's criminal and tbh the fact that it was even (not just up for consideration, but actually) written and even shot is more revealing in regard to how interested they ever were in respecting and preserving Tolkiens story through their adaptations than any video essay could ever say.

[@reeceemms1643]

@@AJ0223 technically with Eowyn though could it have been used to foreshadow how she kills the Witch King? Plus it would make sense since the women of Rohan did not how to fight and were trained possibly on the off chance that if the defences fail they can die fighting. Which I feel like Tolkien knowing his love for mythology and all that maybe took from Norse mythology. Feel like Eowyn may have been inspired by the Valkyries actually. Or like the whole thing about the women of Rohan being able to fight may have been inspired by the Valkyries. Or maybe Eowyn's inspiration was Athena from Greek mythology. Or maybe Jone of Ark. Who knows.

[@Niko-hi5my]

But in the book it's not just 300 humans (I think). They could have just added more humans.

[@warrengouldthorpe5091]

I think there were around 2,000 men at helms deep with another 1,000 on foot that gandalf finds

[@Baelor-Breakspear]

If you think that defies physics then what was that shit Legolas did to the Olyphant?? That move spit in physics face

[@factorfantasyweekly]

Well that’s a problem for the next movie 😂

[@Baelor-Breakspear]

@ fact, you’ve been doing a great job on this series by the way. I’ve seen every episode and subscribed because of it. Keep up the good work.

[@thekurgan14]

Do you know of any mention beyond Gimili talking about the caves of dwarves having any connection to Helm Hammerhand or Helms Deep? I think it was the Third Age video game had a line about them helping build it? Is that made up or in other writings? It always made me think if true Jackson should had made up dwarves showing up to help but likely chose elves as they has the Armour sets from the prologue in the Fellowship movie and sending elves saved on cost.

[@irena4545]

No connection whatsoever, the fortress was built by Gondor before its power started waning.

[@thekurgan14]

@irena4545 thank you.

[@jawstrock2215]

From memory, the caves are naturally built (Maybe by Aule himself), has always been there.They have just barely been used as a refuge by Rohan in recent history. They just made Gimli's eye go big, and he saw all the potential of what dwarves would see in them. To him it was like the most beautiful natural world wonder.(Legolas joke they would mine it dry in a year... but regret it after Gimli takes him to visit the caves.) After the war ends, Gimli establish his little kingdom(well colony) there, and becomes very prosperous(assuming from all the dwarves tourism.).

[@Steve-c4q]

I am strictly a ‘book first’ person. I had read and re read the books five or six times before the films even came out and had very clear ideas about how each major character looked sounded and behaved. The only character from Peter Jackson’s films who is anything like the way I imagined them is Ian McKellen’s Gandalf. However I do concede that Jackson’s original trilogy are good movies and many of his changes do work cinematically even if I do watch certain scenes through gritted teeth. The Hobbit movies and the subsequent trend of turning the whole thing into a ‘franchise’ is another thing entirely and I want nothing to do with any of it.

[@timmellor2599]

I disagree with you about a king's position in battle. Theoden is typical of a king from pre-medival times- he was a leader of men so led them (from the front). This would explain so many (relatively speaking) kings meeting their deaths on a battle field. They may not have led the charge at the beginning, so as to lead from a safer place, but they would charge when the chips are down.

[@JasonwithaJay]

There was too much emphasis on Helms Deep for me. It's like a chapter in the book. But I guess when you move all the good parts of the book to the third movie, you don't have many options.

[@Niko-hi5my]

I agree. But they moved all the good stuff to part three SO THAT they can make Helm's Deep a huge battle.

[@Belphengos]

Also, as a movie, they need, or think they need, a dramatic climax for the movie. In order for it to function the way audiences expect a movie to function, they couldn't just have it end with Sam wandering Cirith Ungol.

[@barneyhall2753]

This is where the book plot diverges from the film so much that the remainder of the film's plot lines are so superficial that they contain little of substance.

[@belliott538]

Book for the Win… Love the movie, but many of the Changes were unneeded or just didn’t make sense.

[@jachyra9]

Having Elves show up at Helm's Deep goes on my list of top ten things out of dozens more which prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Team Jackson are idiots who don't understand The Lord of the Rings at all.

[@joshuadempsey5281]

Correction about Gimli not knowing what Uruk Hai are: In the movie they make it seem like Saruman "invents" them, but they already existed in the book. Mordor has Uruk Hai, so Gimli could have known about them, especially since he saw/faught them at Amon Hen and saw them dead at Fangorm (though I think both times it was a mix of low orc and uruk hai). (We even see the Mordor Uruk Hai in the movies (RotK) when Sam goes to rescue frodo; they are half of the Orc-on-orc battle in that scene; they're the larger in stature ones).

[@pk5727]

I liked the battle, and things made sense to me. I tried reading the books. I just can’t get into it. I’m not daring to say that Tolkien isn’t an amazing writer…..he clearly is…..I just, and my mother as well, just had difficulty reading Tolkien’s style of writing. So differences between movie and book just aren’t that important to me, we got 3 amazing movies and arguably one of the best adaptations possible.

[@S0L12D3]

Completely missed your opportunity to explain “Haleth son of Hama”

[@palerider7171]

Jackson takes Tolkien’s romanticize heroic battle of noble of sacrifice that is the Battle of Helms deep and transformed into an action/adventure battle for modern audiences. Is that bad? It is entertaining but I summarize in my opinion with this classic statement “Elves at Helms Deep 🙄🧐!”

[@nickfoster9350]

I love this battle scene in the movie, but in the book, it's pretty 'meh' by comparison. Much like how in "The Hobbit" movies, "The Battle of the Five Armies" is about a page and half long. "The Battle of the Five Armies was long and terrible," but that is a story for another time." - J. R. R. Tolkien.

[@isaiasramosgarcia9771]

la muerte de Haldir es un episodio muy triste de la peli

[@raycathode]

The more I learn about the extent of Peter Jackson’s additions and changes to the book the less I like the films.

[@LostHorizons0]

I started with the books as a kid and I just always remembered the battle as another cool battle in the book but nothing extreme or epic in this fashion. I was confused by the films because they changed so much from the book. Their ok but my Tolkien will always be the books and the one animated hobbit movie form the 70s

[@myguitar5724]

1. Aragon falling off cliff. Not needed for the film. 2. The elves showing up. Come on. Please don't insult the readers who know elves did not show up. 3. Just felt like film strayed too far from the book. Cheers.

[@bastonero7572]

After watching this video, I believe the movie is better than the book 😅

[@TheSawnMC]

The filming of the battle of Helm's Deep is a middle finger to all of today's Hollywood wannabe writers and director's that butcher the content they work with on film adaptations on fantasy books or games in order to push to our face their personal agendas. Shows how, when you know what you're actually doing and proceed to create a masterpiece, even the hardcore fan base of a concept won't care if you step away from following the source on every single point.

[@sststr]

There may be a lot of visual treats regarding the battle, but none of it really makes and sense. This is, unfortunately, typical of 99% of movie battles, they are all complete nonsense. Perhaps the most egregious is the attacker's deployment of pikes at the walls during a siege. (And the way they carry the pikes while marching, WTF is that?). There are so many problems with the details of it that it quickly becomes more annoying than enjoyable. I'd rather kind of not watch this, but given how much screen time it takes up... Ugh.

[@irena4545]

Also, isn't rain supposed to be bad for bowstrings?

[@raimat66]

I find Peter Jackson's edits extremely talented and skillful. I know the books very well, and know the original events. The change of Faramir, Aragorn's fall from the cliff, and Sam and Frodo's conflict in The Return of the King, are the only events I reacted to. Otherwise, I don't really experience the changes. I almost think Jackson is faithful to the books, and that's probably because he's so good at analyzing the books and determining how best to translate them to film. So a big compliment to his artistry and ability to balance between faithfulness to the books and faithfulness to the film medium.

[@jachyra9]

😄