45 Super vs 10mm - I didn't expect THIS!

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The 45 Super is one of those cartridges a lot of people haven't heard of. It's basically a 45 ACP Magnum. It's not safe to shoot in many guns like the 1911 without serious modification. The 45 Super is more powerful than the 45 ACP and 45 +P. But can the 45 Super take on the 10mm and win? We use the hottest Buffalo Bore ammo we could get our hands on and what happened was totally unexpected.
#10mm #45super #45acp

[@rybred007]

Hollowpoints just don't seem like what these rounds are best designed for. Seems like a job for hardcast lead. Any chance of testing 460 rowland?

[@Militaryarmschannel]

I have a .460 Rowland coming from the guys at 460Rowland.com. So, YES! This is going to be AWESOME!

[@randallscott-key802]

@Titanium Man That's why you don't load expanding bullets in .460 Rowland. Just like 40 years ago when magnum revolvers were the norm, hard-cast lead SWC were used even though the ammo industry was hard at work trying to convince everyone they NEEDED a jacketed bullet! A good hand load for the .460 Rowland is a round nose "ball" going 1,350 fps which behaves EXACTLY like a flat nose due to the way the supersonic shock wave attaches to the rounded nose which is not designed for supersonic speeds. The ideal is a 200-230 grain FMJ with truncated cone...again, when you push a bullet at 1,400 fps, the supersonic shock wave creates a massive expansion channel.

[@jpoeng]

@@randallscott-key802 Copper solids or a strong HP bullet like XTP’s also work well for these power levels. But the use case for .460 Rowland is really bear country, so a heavy SWC or TMC is a good choice.

[@jpoeng]

IMO the best “use case” of the super is still a 230 grain HP, but you have the extra velocity to ensure good expansion. But I have to admit, 10mm is such a good performer, I just don’t see much point to the .45 Super if I were choosing a new handgun. I do run .45Super in full size .45’s just for the added velocity, but it doesn’t really do anything my 10mm’s don’t do better already. IMO.

[@iamnotpaulavery]

How about hard or regular cast lead, full wadcutters? How do think they would perform?

[@xtreme4stringbass]

That 45 super is one of the most devastating self-defense rounds I've ever seen in my life. My God dumping that much energy in that space of time with that weight bullet in the chest cavity is instant death.

[@russellbarbee9606]

10mm

[@ojr6857]

You should look up information on what’s actually killing people on the real world. You need way more than 7” to kill a human and this test has no clothes between the barrel and the skin

[@ojr6857]

@@xtreme4stringbass neither the police or military agree that the 45 is or 357 is king at all. In real world today a 10mm with a 6" barrel has the same power as a .357 with a 5" barrel. .45 is slow and heavy but will only drop undersized opponents. I know tons of people who hunt with 10mm 357 and 44 magnum. None ever mention 45 as a go to knock down round

[@ojr6857]

Penetration matters when you're shooting through layers of clothing. We don't live in a time where .45 caliber is the only ammo available and definitely not a first choice in personal defense or hunting applications

[@user-ce3lq2ow7c]

Absolutely!

[@OutSciEd]

I reload both 45 super and 10mm. I've always been frustrated at the lack of talk on the 45 super, so I've done lots of my own data collecting and recording. I've found Longshot and 800-X to be the best 45 Super Powders. If you want 45 Super, reloading is a must. Through lots of careful trials, using the LabRadar Chronograph as MAC is using and a 24lb recoil spring in my USP 45, I've found 12.2gr of 800-X loaded to a depth of 1.230" OAL will consistently get 1,324fps from a 230gr .45 bullet - that is 895ft-lbs of energy! And no extreme signs of overpressure either, though it did fling the brass behind me almost 10ft. I've never tried it harder than that, but even careful trials and downloading to 11.8gr has got me 1,300fps, yielding 862ft-lbs of energy. Simply put, my Ruger Blackhawk .44 typically sees these energies from its 5.5" barrel, so this is impressive. But the Blackhawk only holds 6 rounds and is slow to reload. I should note, these tests I did to get these velocities were at 68°F at a controlled range, so I do want to do more tests at higher temperatures, in case the power suffers dangerous pressure spikes at warmer temperatures, so these figures should not alone be relied upon, however so far I am impressed and encouraged. I can get nowhere near these energies with a nowhere near as heavy of a bullet using a 10mm. I will add, I use the 45 super and 10mm for woods protection, and thus use hard cast, not hollow-points as MAC used; that would likely lead to significant differences. I would be curious to see what the results would be in this situation. One reason I have opted to go with the 10mm more frequently, despite rarely getting above 700ft-lbs, is that I can carry 2 more rounds in a magazine and for a 200gr bullet in a 10mm there is more sectional density, which leads to more penetration compared to a 45 bullet at 230gr.

[@FargoFX]

Awesome 😎 Thanks for the great info. Saved me a lot of trial and error when I start reloading .45 Super. (Of course I’ll work up to it slowly, but your data is good to have).

[@OutSciEd]

@@FargoFX 800-X is some of the worst metering powder I've ever seen, so be ready to individually measure powder by hand for cases. But 800-X is king with 45 super. Good luck!

[@johndoe-td2xd]

Enforcer is a great .45 super powder too. CFE pistol is not bad either. Try the 250 gr XTP.

[@ModernMillwright]

I’ve switched from CFE Pistol to VV 3N38. Seem to get better accuracy with the recipes provided by VV I’ve yet to do any hand loads with 45super. Just 45acp.

[@davidgrenis638]

I ENJOYED YOUR INPUT 😊 AND UP TO THE TIME THAT SOMEBODY STOLE MY AMT 45 WINCHESTER MAGNUM SHE WAS MY FAVORITE HUNTING HAND GUN LOW IT HAD A MASSIVELY LONG ADDED BARREL THAT WAS A BIT OF A PAIN IN THE ASS TO CARRY I COULD PUT TOGETHER LOADS USING COPPER JACKETED HARD CAST LEAD BULLETS TO 454 CASULL EQUIVALENCE IN A SEMI-AUTO . WHICH MEANS 2,000-PLUS FEET PER SECOND AND DREAMED OF RIFLE THAT WOULD GO ALONG WITH THAT OR WITH LIKE A 454 CASULL D . A . G . BOULDER COLORADO I'M 71 AND MY FATHER'S COMMANDING OFFICER WORKS WITH COLONEL THOMPSON AND OTHER BALLISTICS EXPERTS AND WHEN I TOLD HIM ABOUT THESE TWO ROUNDS HE TOLD ME THAT WAS THE KIND OF THING THAT POWER TO LENGTHWISE IS WHAT HE WAS DREAMING ABOUT. NOT THE 223 .

[@adamnygaard1]

I don't know about these gel results, I think Paul Harrell needs to test this ammo in the meat target for a more accurate representation of the effect on a human target.

[@wrenchinator6667]

This would be very interesting, the penetration results are not promising at all.

[@davidgolden1726]

@@wrenchinator6667 who needs penetration, when you have bullets that look like they hit a steel plate 😳🙈🤣👌

[@mohawk3371]

@@davidgolden1726 Any one trying to stop a charging grizzly that has more than 6 inches of fur, hide, fat, muscle and bone between you and it's vital organs

[@davidgolden1726]

@@mohawk3371 I would use a 44mag for what you are referring to, I was referring to two legged animals.

[@barking.dog.productions1777]

Hear hear finally the meat target meets it's match as it is turned into instant hamburger! LOL =D

[@pauljoyce4857]

I would have thought that the .45 super's result was pretty much ideal, particularly for a self defense round. It has significantly higher energy than the +P but manages to dump all of its energy within a body cavity. Real man-stopper.

[@EdD-ym6le]

Yeah that's a brutal energy dump , all 761 lbs of energy IN the body .

[@jagdtigerfukthis]

Agreed. Energy transfer over Over-penetration.

[@marblemarble7113]

ikr, i wish this were the results of the standard .45 acp but sadly the ammo variety for it sucks. Maybe ill get a chance to make some custom loads one day

[@jason_m_schmidt622]

@Marble & Marble What I would like to see is the Federal Hydrashok Deep loaded to .45 Super velocities

[@marblemarble7113]

@@jason_m_schmidt622 check out liberty civil defense ammo in .45

[@bernieeod57]

In his book "Fighting Handguns" The late Col. Cooper decried the Army brass for specifying the .45 ACP duplicate the power of the .45 Schofield instead of the .45 Colt. This castrated the round. The .45 Super is what Cooper believed the .45 ACP should have been all along.

[@j.r.6271]

Important to note that he moved to .40 cal because he wanted such effectiveness, but recognized that caliber over .40 in double stacks provided less than stellar grip width dimensions in a modern combat pistol.

[@texasbeast239]

Neither 8 nor 10 in for .45Sup as shown in this test is impressive. DayAtTheRange shot UW 230gr .45Sup with a 6in barrel in clear gel, and it did 12in. This isn't saying much for the caliber. 10mm FTW.

[@andreawhalen4142]

Yes cooper wanted more steam

[@texasbeast239]

@@UserAccountID Good Q. Hornady definitely seems to use hard lead for its Critical Duty and Custom 10mm JHPs. It's so hard that it is almost brittle, leaving mini-fragments on the way to deep penetrations. So what else do they use it on?

[@tomhorn1876]

Off on a tangent but .45 Colt loaded to .45 ACP pressures is what it used to be. 250 grain around 1000fps.

[@frankgonzalez3822]

Hypothesis: The 45 is a bigger diameter bullet. When it expands it becomes a much larger parachute. The higher velocity has its fully expanding earlier than normal. Bigger parachute.

[@mikesalmon9945]

You must be a rocket surgeon!

[@joew6277]

Pretty much, i dont see why its being considered a bad thing. Why would you want a bullet to have unused energy after leaving your target? The more energy used on your target the more your target is absorbing all that energy. Just like 5.56 nato from a 20” shatters everything and penetrates less than a 10” which stays .22cal and clean through. More or less what you shoot affects bullets differently too. Like i have seen .45 penetrate further than 9mm and also the opposite depending on how hard the target is.

[@MrJamesbourbon]

Without further testing I would find this to be correct. If you do the math on metal bending of a hollow point, you can see how more energy is going to expand the hollow point faster, ie the parachute.

[@rsbreeze]

@@mikesalmon9945 acted a Brain Scientist!

[@jamesalles139]

@@mikesalmon9945 an underappreciated comment.

[@mobydick3895]

What I remember from reading books many years ago, my conclusion about .45 ACP was that yes it went slower, but, since it often lodged inside a person's body when someone shot them with it, this meant that the entire momentum of the shot would be transferred to the victim, giving a strong "knock-down" effect, while at the same time, this reduced the risk that the bullet would go completely through and damage whatever was behind it, thus reducing the risk of shooting through any more walls than necessary, etc. i.e. an even further liability risk.

[@AscendingBliss]

When I'm in bear or moose country, I carry my Springfield XD Mod2 Service Model in .45 ACP, but I load it with Underwood's .45 Super 255gr Hardcast. The XD Mod2 is actually an excellent platform for .45 Super. It has a cold-hammer-forged and fully-supported barrel, and is an all around exceptionally tough handgun. All I do is swap out the guide rod assembly to one with a 25lb recoil spring and I'm good to go.

[@curtistignor3966]

Those are bargain guns. They came with everything back in the day. 40 bucks for a spring and you are all in.

[@OdinX316]

Where did you pick up your spring? I am doing the same thing with my XD 5" Tactical. I was going to do the 460 Rowland conversion but it takes too long currently, so I went with Underwoods 255 same as you! Grizzlies are a problem here in WY elk hunting!!

[@DDDYLN]

I assume you used hardcast or penetrators for bears, right?

[@peady64]

I wonder how Underwood Extreme Penetrator rounds would fare in these tests.

[@ammohoarder]

I bought some of the Underwood XPs in 45 Super. I want to see this myself!

[@jessicahamby6373]

It would probably go through 3 feet of dirt haha.

[@godgunsandgoldens]

Much better for 45super because of little expansion with solid bullet.

[@GregGBM7]

I was thinking the same. A solid copper projectile doesn't absorb it's own energy as deformation the way a soft lead expanding one does unless it hits something harder like a steel target.

[@Militaryarmschannel]

I suspect it would still be circling the earth.

[@lanedexter6303]

Interesting! Certainly underlines that “expanding bullet” is not enough. “Controlled expansion” is the way, matching bullet construction with intended velocity and target material.

[@Militaryarmschannel]

Yes, for most applications stopping in 7" of ballistics gel is not ideal. Some folks who don't understand ballistics gel will say 7" is more than enough. The problem is, gel is not actual living tissue. The reason the FBI wants 12"-18" of penetration in gel is so that in a living critter it's 8" or so. Gel is not a 1:1 for organic tissues (more than one type in a living thing). Thanks for watching.

[@retirednobaddays456]

@@Militaryarmschannel I thought I read somewhere that the FBI wanted the higher penetration after studying a shoot out where agent were not able to bring down the bad guys because the FBI agents ammo did not have enough penetration. I could be wrong, but you may want to do a little more research on the FBI standard. I wonder what the test would show if you used ammo from a major bullet manufacture?

[@Mockturtlesoup1]

@@retirednobaddays456 yes, that was the Platt and Maddox shooting. One of the (9mm) bullets fired stopped just short of (I think?) the suspects heart. This is what led to the 10mm, and eventually the .40S&W. Not sure if I'm misunderstanding your comment, but I'm sure MAC is aware of this, and was just saying why they want 12-18" of penetration, not the events or reasoning that led up to those numbers specifically(in fact, I'm not sure when those penetration numbers were decided upon, and how much the Platt and Maddox shooting had to do with it.)

[@retirednobaddays456]

@@Mockturtlesoup1 Most of this info came from the NRA report "Throwback Thursday: The FBI Ammo Tests”. Hornady also has some good information. "Properly calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin is a reliable tissue simulant." "The maximum depth of penetration used in the calculation was 18", because a bullet that penetrated any further than that would be presumed to have exited the target." The 12" minimum penetration standard was derived from studying human anatomy. Vital structures usually lie deep within the body and are well protected by both bone and muscle. Real shooting situations rarely find the combatants facing one another. Instead, shots are frequently fired from oblique angles that increase the need for penetration." "Development of the eight separate test events was begun by a careful review of actual shootings in FBI files. Most prior testing had involved shooting into bare ballistic gelatin to estimate bullet performance, but that is an unrealistic condition." "The FBI is quick to point out that its test results are not an indictment of any cartridge or ammunition manufacturer, but rather of the concept upon which bullet designs were based. "The fact is that ammunition manufacturers are perfectly capable, and willing, to make bullets that perform better under the specified test conditions. Now that these have been defined, it is certain that we will see refinements in defensive handgun ammunition. In fact, two major manufacturers, Winchester and Federal, have adopted all or part of the FBI test events in their ammunition development programs, and Hornady has done the same with its component bullets as well as its loaded ammunition.

[@reachblowsdick7222]

@@Militaryarmschannel - Tim can you do a comparison test between a hot loaded .44 magnum vs a .460 Rowland? It would be cool to see how close a .460 Rowland is to a .44 magnum.

[@Demane69]

The jell could be acting similar to water against higher speed projectiles. The Myth Busters tested shooting into water, and the lower speed bullets penetrated deeper. The higher speed the bullet, the more water slowed and deformed/shattered it. I'd bet a solid, flat tip slug could overcome the resistance offered by the jell with minimal tumble.

[@peterolsen269]

One of the things that I've always appreciated about the 45 ACP is the low pressures. Just more comfortable to shoot and lower muzzle flash for shooting at night. I've shot the 45 Super and frankly it's just hard to manage and rattles my cage. I prefer lower pressures and reduced recoil. Nothing wrong with a 200 grain cast flat point at about 950 to 1000 fps. My buddy had one of these 45 supers and he couldn't hit anything with it. I shot circles around him with my old 1911.

[@blackhawk7r221]

You and me both.

[@Eddie-uf8oo]

Doesn’t matter if it’s a howitzer if you can’t hit anything with it.The most important thing it’s being able to put around on target. Being able to reaquire your target for follow up doesn’t hurt either

[@mosswine5417]

Dang and I thought the 45 super 255gr hardcast would be a decent bullet for the woods..

[@peterolsen269]

Make sure you can hit what you aim at. Not just say it but actually follow through. @@mosswine5417

[@AlaskanBallistics]

I've shot a .45 super through a grizzly bear skull and found it in the shoulder. 200gr hardcast going 1370s

[@ColeDedhand]

So you used an appropriate bullet and got a good result... Imagine that.

[@AlaskanBallistics]

@@ColeDedhand yep I've always said that bullet construction and shot placement are 90% or more of the equation. Power, caliber, ft lbs etc... less than 10%

[@chillios2222]

Did you use USP? Just wondering because I have USP

[@AlaskanBallistics]

@@chillios2222 I've shot w buddy's in a video but no I've got a converted glock with a long barrel.

[@Militaryarmschannel]

Hard cast is outstanding.

[@Mbartel500]

I still have about 10 boxes of .45 super 185 gr. that were loaded by Texas Ammo. They are now out of business. They loaded their super ammo to its full potential. I installed a 6” Jarvis barrel in my Glock 21, along with a Sprinco recoil reduction guide rod and spring. That Texas Ammo goes 1535 fps out of my g21 for 968 ft. Lbs. of muzzle energy. The .45 super has more case capacity than the 10mm, so if both are loaded to the same pressure level, the .45 super will out perform the 10 mm every time.

[@stregester2]

Wtf are you going to do after the 10 boxes?

[@fairlanemuscle]

@@stregester2 anything he pleases

[@Mbartel500]

@@stregester2 I'll load my own. As soon as I can get some more of the 120 gr. Lehigh extreme defense monolithic fluted solid copper bullets, I'll start my load development work using them. I will use .450 SMC brass, because it is stronger, and has a small primer pocket. I should be able to get around 1950 fps muzzle velocity which will produce about 1000 ft. Lbs. of muzzle energy. Max pressure for 10 mm is 37,500 psi, and that's right where I should be for this load. Because of the unique design of the guide rod I am using, there is no chance of frame battering with these very hot loads. My gen 3 glock 21 can handle loads like this just fine.

[@BenfromFlux]

That is awesome. That is 460 Rowland territory, which is basically 45 super hot loads. A compensator will tame this beast.

[@Mbartel500]

@@BenfromFlux a friend that I shoot with put a 6” threaded KKM barrel on his 10 mm glock 20 and loads his 10mms pretty hot. We shoot on an indoor range, and when he put a comp on his g20, it was insanely loud . A comp might be fine outdoors, but it's too damn loud indoors. I do have a glock 20 slide on my g21, which is 1 ounce heavier than a g21 slide, so that helps a little bit.

[@GuyInMassiveDebt]

This actually sounds like the perfect self defense round. The ability for the bullet to travel that fast reaching the threat sooner but instantly expand and stop dead in its tracks.

[@tristantimothy1004]

Shane, Totally agree! The big flat buster would definitely knock the snot out of whatever it hit. No worries about collateral pass through damage either. Freaking shock wave alone would take out another 6 inches.

[@hel8686]

That's Exactly what I was Thingking! LoL! If they Used FMJ's I'm sure the Penetration would be similar to the 10mm. But the Point of Hollow Point is to Stop and Expand in the Character.... and Those Expansion Wound Chambers are Phenomenal!!!

[@jmangus83]

​@@hel8686 yes you want the bullet to expand for a larger wound cavity, but if you go by the FBI's ballistic lab tests, they state that a round needs to travel at a minimum 12" to 16" for maximum terminal performance, even with hollowpoints. I'm not sure if this is relegated to just the 9mm or if this applies across the board. I assume the later. This test here doesn't even simulate going through clothing which could drastically change the results, especially if going through multiple layers, enough to clog the hp.

[@LeoEburneus]

I was thinking the same.. people round great .. against animals you do want the penetration though

[@HerroYuy246]

Great point Shane

[@texan-american200]

Ever since Dean Grennell shoes the .45 Super in "Gun World," I've been incredibly fascinated by it, even over the 10mm Auto... And I was an instant fan of the 10 when Colt came out with it in their 10mm Delta Elite.

[@Stengun72087]

Grennell just stole the idea for the Super from Detonics' .451 Detonics Magnum

[@F15ElectricEagle]

The 45 Super is basically the cartridge the 45 auto pistol would have been chambered in If John M. Browning invented the M1911 handgun in 2011 instead of 1911.

[@zehman11]

This is not an issue with the 45 super cartridge. Its an issue with bullet design/choice. Common mistake is comparing different diameter bullets with similar weights. Counterintuitively, that is actually NOT a fair comparison. You need to compare bullets with similar sectional density. A 230 gr 45 and a 180 gr 10mm have similar section density and should have been the comparison. Also, with 45 super you can't just load any old 45 projectile. Most .451 bullets are designed to work at 900 fps give or take. If you chose a bullet designed for higher velocities then it would perform better. Unfortunately, few such bullets exist. In summary, if the 45 super was loaded with a 230 gr projectile that was sturdy enough to handle 45 super velocities, then the results would have been on par with the 10mm.

[@MTMILITIAMAN7.62]

I agree. Those of us who are fans of the 10mm Auto have had to learn the hard way that loading bullets intended for .40 S&W a couple hundred fps faster doesn't necessarily lead to better performance. Heavy for caliber, high sectional density loads with tougher bullets is the way to go in both the 10mm Auto and the .45 Super. I recommend the Hornady XTP and possibly the Barnes, though I have less experience with the Barnes, I know the 200 gr XTP driven to 1200+ fps in the 10mm is an excellent load. I would imagine a 230 gr XTP at 1100+ fps from a .45 Super would be similarly impressive.

[@steelwolf411]

I mean there are plenty of bullets for the 454 casull and 460 s&w that can be used.

[@Elessar762]

Unfortunate that buffalo bore appears to have taken a basic 45 acp bullet and over-clocked it to crazy velocity. No way Tim could have known this beforehand but it pretty much makes the comparative results useless.

[@davidmilisock5200]

I load +P 45 ASP with 230 grain projectiles and it works fine.

[@shootinbruin3614]

Well said. It is advisable for the same reason that when using a 16" PCC for defensive purposes that the JHP used can handle the higher velocities. Lucky Gunner and Chopping Block did videos on this I believe

[@crashercarlton]

I’ve been carrying 230gr underwood .45 super for 5 years in my FNX45. Love the round

[@fairlanemuscle]

Yup. Ive done that with my FNP....except i run the 185s at 1400 fps

[@jesseariasja]

I CC my FNX 45 tac how does it hold up and how many rounds have you gone through

[@nickharris5796]

This, to me, demonstrates how much better the .45 super in that load performed its functions. In my opinion having that much energy delivered on contact or within the first few inches into soft parts vs passing it through a smaller hole and continuing on is much more effective at stopping the target. I.E.- I like the hammer affect vs. Poking holes.

[@jimkane9832]

To me, the 45 super was a complete failure with that bullet. Less than 8 inches is not good.

[@terryburton971]

8 inches within a human body cavity sucks??? What u shooting giants lol ​@jimkane9832

[@jimkane9832]

@@terryburton971 8 inches in gel is not 8 inches in a human. This is why the FBI says 12 to 18 inches in gel is ideal.

[@terryburton971]

@jimkane9832 still 45 been in several wars it can kill lol no matter what the fbi says

[@srankin8022]

Yet another proof that bullet design is the most critical part of the system. Bullet construction and terminal performance are most important even in pistol and rifle.

[@allenneva5213]

This reminds me a little of the Mythbusters test of shooting bullets into water. The extremely rapid loss of energy deforms the projectile and it dumps all of its energy very quickly. A 50 BMG round into water only went a couple of feet before it completely disinterested and didn't travel any farther.

[@StanSummers]

With this 45 Super you don't have to worry about over-penetration and you get all of the energy dumped into the target. Seems to me that this is the perfect concealed carry round.

[@mdd1963]

Might be just the new round for Federal Sky Marshals! :)

[@JohnLinder]

Stan, you just hit the nail on the head!

[@ericsbraun]

Yep. All that short travel is stopping power. Nothing is going to survive the hydroshock from that. There will be organ failure from the cellular bruising and death within less than 48 hours.

[@philg27]

@@ericsbraun don't know about the 48 hour period , but that broom handle size hole in you is sure going to leak some suace

[@ericsbraun]

@@philg27 true dat. however, back in the day, I heard that a cop was shot in the arm with a .22 and died from hydroshock. those supersonic shock waves in a watery are sneaky. that is a punch in the gut that some won't survive, even if the arterial bleeding is stopped or missed.

[@donnelson4140]

Interesting gelatin results. Four years ago, I did comparisons of .45 Super and 10mm using Dan Wesson “Heritage” and “Razorback” 1911s, with the former resprung to 28 lbs. My velocity results varied a little from yours, in that the .45 Super sent the 185 XTP bullet to 1400fps and the 10mm pushed a 180 XTP to 1320fps. The initial 10mm ammo used was Underwood and Doubletap, with handloads duplicating their ballistics for follow-up. All .45 Super ammo was hand loaded carefully, starting with some pretty sparse web recommendations. After a few thousand rounds of each caliber downrange, I stopped the .45 Super experiment, because it felt like that too much shooting might damage the gun, and because 10mm was close enough. Ultimately I sold the “Heritage” and kept the “Razorback.” I have two HK .45s, and keep hearing that .45 Super can be used in them, but have never seen any factory concurrence, so don’t intend to pursue the cartridge further. I’m pretty sure that the bullets you show are Hornady XTPs, rumored to expand slowly but hold together very well. That sorta explains your velocity vs penetration results.

[@paulwhite8381]

I’m still voting on the 10mm being the best semi automatic cartridge….EVER YET!! I have several and they are all awesome!! LOVE EM !!

[@merxanity1625]

Since hollowpoint isn't meant for penetration to begin with, but instead the opposite, seems like the Super is the winner here. Force on target and wound channel must be catastrophic on flesh. I would be awestruck if anything short of a bear didnt drop in the first shot of something like that. The perceived shock of impact must be immense.

[@gonmaro1]

Love my 45 super. Converted my 1911 and she was just outright fantastic

[@stregester2]

How often do you shoot it?

[@gonmaro1]

@@stregester2 when I first converted it, I shot about 150 rounds through it. Really test the set up. But I have since converted it back (springs basically) to shoot just my normal 45 acp.

[@freedomfirst5420]

I only use 230gr. 45acp bullets, mainly HST's and Gold Dots, for self defense.

[@SoccerVJ2011]

Winchester Ranger T 45 ACP expands to 25mm

[@richardnamber813]

I was curious about 230 myself. Just like 147 is tops for 9mm

[@CrpMag]

This was super interesting, thanks MAC!

[@bmiller9456]

Check out Alaskan Ballistics and Chuke’s Outdoor Adventures: they run 45 Super and 10mm comparisons that include bear skulls. The two cartridges really are pretty evenly matched. You can also contact the proprietor of Buffalo Bore- he’s good enough to answer every email I’ve ever sent. He answers personally. He’d have insights into this test.

[@bmiller9456]

@Zylus C Really. Would you care to explain your oh-so-eloquent decision?

[@bmiller9456]

@Zylus C That's not an answer. That's an evasion. It seems that you don't really have a reason for your conclusion, other than you don't like the cartridges for some non-rational reason. Why not actually engage in a real conversation?

[@bmiller9456]

@Zylus C Well - since you're not willing to put your money where your mouth is, I'll make your argument for you. A) The 10mm and/or 45 Super is not as powerful as (fill in the blank here - 44 magnum? 454 Casull?). Response: True! But they don't claim to be. What they do claim to offer is very good penetration in a more controllable loading with far more rounds available. B) The 10mm and/or 45 Super is too powerful for a defensive cartridge. Response: that's a subjective matter. Most who shoot them are do not consider them to be "too" powerful or uncontrollable, rather they are loadings that require a little more practice than a 9mm. The 10mm/45 Super are not "the most powerful" rounds. They are, really, not the "best" at anything. They are, however, very good "jack-of-all-trades" rounds. The same gun, same trigger, same sights, etc. can be carried against bears or human beings. You might need to change out loads for maximum effectiveness, and a bear round may not be the best home-defense round, but the spectrum of applications available with either round is extraordinary. Neither are they rifle loadings or rifled slugs. No one expects a handgun to perform like a long-gun. But it's a lot easier to carry a handgun in many situations. There's a reason that the 10mm, especially in a Glock 20, is becoming the sidearm of choice in Alaska - it's the combination of relatively high power, high capacity, ease of shoot- ability, and familiarity (the same 10mm can be your carry gun, night-stand gun, etc.). I'd suggest a few resources: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gIuth3lrhbynp5o kzbin.info/www/bejne/nWqvnWOKidqLfrc www.marksmanshipmatters.com/comparing-the-10-mm-450-smc-and-45-super-for-predator-defense/ kzbin.info/www/bejne/joKTaoOYdrRsnLM The simple fact is, you could get one handgun: a 10mm or a 45 super, and, with the right loads, be equipped for anything on the North American (really North and South American) Continent. Probably for most threats outside of Africa. Not the best an any one particular job, but one round that will do the job in almost any application. Kind of like a .30-06.

[@bmiller9456]

@Zylus C Cartridges don’t have opinions- what in the world are you talking about. And it’s funny that you can post a comment, but then claim that you have too much of a life to get involved in social media. No contradictions there. Ahem...

[@bmiller9456]

@Zylus C That’s a cogent argument! Well spoken!

[@jonbumcrot2934]

I have seen similar results using 230gr XTP's in my 460 Rowland. I come to the obvious conclusion that bullets designed to perform at standard 45 acp velocity (8-900 fps) fail to perform at 1300+ fps.

[@konradvandermerwe991]

I agree with you a 45acp bullet is designed to perform well at 45acp velocities. A bullet design is necessary for the 45super to achieve acceptable performance for the 45super speed and energy. It will also be better to not compare bullets in different calibers with dame weight but compare with same sectional density.

[@rickyfoley4294]

The .45 super would probably do much better with a jsp bullet versus a jhp.

[@bensears7499]

May not feed well in the auto pistol

[@Militaryarmschannel]

Most 45 ACP bullets aren't designed to travel that fast. As I show with the +P which has the exact same bullet you see more conventional (and preferred) performance. This is where machined bullets like those made by Leighigh/Underwood would likely shine. We'll revisit this when I get my hands on some other factory loads.

[@c.j.rogers2422]

@@Militaryarmschannel A tougher JHP like an XTP might make a significant difference, as well. They seem to be some of the sturdiest. If I aim to shoot a deer or hog with a 45, XTP is what I usually reach for.

[@ohell226]

that end of the loading chart is intended for hard cast bullet jobs.

[@hardtarget2359]

@@Militaryarmschannel The machined bullets should do well but, like CJ Rogers said; the Hornady XTP is designed for applications just like this!!! You're favored lighter machined bullets will use less powder compared to lead projectiles to get the same velocity's. Defeating the purpose of you're video. "Making a more modern round with MORE CuP's!

[@hillsideheathen5267]

Its probably like water: the faster you go, the more like concrete it becomes on impact...

[@4mrholsterco981]

As far as a sidearm for going hunting where there are wolves near your tree stand, the fact that the 45 super dumps all its energy that quickly impressed me enough to where I wouldn’t mind packing one in the woods. I currently carry +p ammo in my 1911, but I’d like to load up some even hotter stuff if I can get my hands on some super brass, and get a different barrel and recoil spring just for this reason.

[@Roccoo]

google: The All-New Big .45 SUPER Thread! Thank me later. My daily is a 185 xtp going 1400 on average. Working on the ES currently, but its a hell of a round.

[@ru2yaz33]

It expanded too quickly because the bullet is design for lower velocities. It's dangerous how the 45 Super are keeping the casing similar outer dimensions. 460 Rowland followed how the 38 and 357 magnum slightly varied the case lengths to prevent accidental loading 357 magnum into 38 firearms. And there's the .40 Super which is the .45 Super casing necked down to .40...

[@steelwolf411]

No more dangerous than store bought 45-70.

[@everettplummer9725]

How about the air cart the Air Force has for tyres and hydrolics. Kid got a split rim in his chest, from grabbing the wrong hose.

[@Militaryarmschannel]

I tied to drive this point home in the video.

[@soonerfrac4611]

Over expansion is a typical problem with handgun bullets. They have to expand at such low velocities in case the shot isn’t at typical 3-7yds but at 25-30yds or further. Which means that when you drive a 45 designed for 900fps to 1300 & it’s gonna fail the majority of the time. Same with most 357 loads out of a carbine. Personally I find that amount of penetration just fine, especially considering the amount of energy dumped. I find the FBI’s perimeters poor anyway.

[@jrbailey3208]

@@soonerfrac4611 You are right on point! I wish he had dwelled upon the bullet shapes after penetration MUCH longer than he did, and then examined them in more detail! The .45 Super bullets DID their job: FULL mushroom but WITHOUT losing their Copper Jackets; that is GREAT bullet design and the Kinetic Energy transferred from THAT expanded bullet is SUPERIOR to the K.E. transferred from the 10mm, which is HALF the Diameter of the .45 Super. Had he bothered to actually MEASURE the size of the expansions in Direct Comparison to their Unexpanded sizes, THAT comparative would have told the tale more fully. This lack of comparing apples to apples (expansions) is why I prefer to rely upon tn9outdoors for Ballistic Results: the man simply does the BEST JOB on the Entire YT/Net of differentiating between Real World Results vs Product Propaganda.....the other guy I like for Real World Results is Paul Harrell and his Meat Target (the chronograph results are also great). Anywho......I used to own a Springfield V-16 in .45 Super and like an Idiot, I sold it for 'something different after several years......best shooting gun I every owned, but carrying it as an EDC really weighed me down full loaded with extra mags. Still sorry I sold it (made $500 MORE than I paid for it brand new).

[@N5II]

It's the wrong bullet for that particular velocity, fairly easy to correct with a properly sized hollow point more suitable for those velocities. A smaller hollow point cavity would probably be all you need to make it penetrate better with those velocities. It might also benefit from being a solid copper hollow point over a jacketed one to help give the bullet more rigidity during expansion. Really this particular bullet shouldn't probably be offered in this loading, but I think Buffalo Bore has a lot of offerings like this where the bullet selection isn't ideal for the particular loading.

[@Militaryarmschannel]

Yes, it's clearly a bullet design/construction issue. The bullet they used wasn't tested at these velocities I don't believe. The penetration shown isn't ideal, IMHO. Given a bullet designed to perform at extreme velocities (which most 45 bullets simply aren't) you would see far better performance. I try to drive this point home in the video. However, I still can't believe that heavy of a bullet traveling that fast could stop in 7". That's freaking crazy to me. Thanks for watching.

[@shootermcgavin2819]

I always thought hollow point manufacturers usually make the hollow part too big. Guns feed better with a smaller cavity on the bullets tip

[@fubar55676]

@@shootermcgavin2819 I think they make the hollow point cavities as big as they do to promote rapid expansion and also it takes more material to clog up a bigger hollow point

[@Predalien195]

@@Militaryarmschannel Nosler JHP's seem to work well in .45 Super but even they can expand too much depending on how hot they are loaded.

[@ericb4127]

@@shootermcgavin2819 My conceal carry won't cycle hydroshock hp but has no problem with hornday hollow points because of the conicle shape of the bullet.

[@thomthompson9217]

Definitely an interesting presentation on the 45 super. It just goes to prove bigger and faster isn’t always more efficient. I have the 45 U. S. P. elite with a 6 1/4 inch barrel and would only consider the Buffalo Bore outdoorsman 255grain hardcast pill for big game after viewing this video. Thanks for the information it’s been very helpful to 45 super shooters like myself.

[@stevenmitchell6347]

By expanding faster and dissipating the energy into the shorter distance, it's doing more damage. The bullet is designed for lower velocities to achieve maximum penetration but then...overpenetration becomes a possible problem in a defensive situation. Best to dump all the energy IN the INTENDED target than zip through and take out an unintended one!

[@joshuasterling2144]

I don't get why people think its losing. To me its impressive and shooting in an environment around other people in an emergency response would make me feel better.

[@onegoodturngetsmostofthebl7499]

Very interesting test. I’ve owned both calibers, and prefer the 45 Super due to bigger diameter, and heavier bullet weights available. The key take away For me from your test was that the bullet used in the 45 Super was not designed for the velocities produced from the combined primer, powder type, volume, burn rate, and barrel lengths. The bullet pedals expanded too quickly in the ballistic gelatine limiting penetration due to premature expansion and resulting tumbling.

[@oldplace2844]

I think there was a similar problem with 44 bullets in 444 Marlin. The velocity was just too great, causing fragmentation. 444 specific bullets resolved the issue. I would wager the same could apply here, if that was the desire. Though I personally think the superior expansion would cause more shock.

[@beakfish7319]

Im not gonna lie, up till now i didnt even know 45 super was a thing. Lol

[@MopSpadowski]

Same, I have shot .38 Super before but I haven’t even heard of another “super” cartridge.

[@stregester2]

Its not a thing!

[@fairlanemuscle]

And 450 smc

[@kermitthefrog5926]

I know right. Where has this been all my life?

[@kermitthefrog5926]

@@MopSpadowski I've known about the 38 super for years. It's like a "super" fast 9 mil. Mostly chambered for 1911's. But 45 super? I've never met her. I would be enthralled, enraptured, and embalmed to kiss her purty hand.

[@godfaithfathersfamilyhorse]

I just found this video. Ace Hindman was one of the first and best gunsmiths doing conversions of pistols from .45 ACP to .45 Super. I bought a Para-Ordnance P-14 converted to .45 Super from a LEO that once carried it as his duty weapon, they had to purchase their own pistols. I had an issue with it once and called the phone number on the website belonging to Ace Hindman. I talked to his son who had retired, he was in his 70's about nine years ago. My P-14 was Mag-na-ported and Ace's son told me the recoil spring in it is 32 lbs. We talked a little longer and he said if I could not "resolve" the issue, call him back. It is one of my favorite pistols. BTW: This particular P-14 was made in Canada, one of the good ones!

[@ronhunt9396]

I've had a Springfield 45 for about a year and I love it. I also got my new XDME 10mm last week. I'll have to check out the 45 ammo. After watching more of your video I don't think I want to go through changing my 1911

[@ReeveHelalV]

Interesting results for sure. Another thing to note is that with the increasing popularity of the various semi auto pistol caliber carbines as well as the 357 mag, .44 mag and 45 colt lever action rifles, this could very well be a combination that would give similar under-penetration and over-expansion results.

[@davelak7892]

I had not even considered a carbine length rifle with this ammo. You make an excellent point. I honestly think the projectile was merely too 'soft' for this application, it's like someone didn't look to see what they were actually loading, and merely grabbed the standard "soft" 185 projectiles thinking it was for standard subsonic 45ACP loads, not supersonic 45 Super loads. Also I don't get using a 185 grain in the 45 Super. I know Mac was showing apples to apples comparison, but 45 Super is not an apple it is a pineapple. The 45 Super should have been 230 grain MINIMUM, and more likely a 255 grain pill to show what the 45 Super can actually do. The 185 grain pills pretty well neutered the 45 Super before the testing even started. It would be like making 40 grain pills in order to compare 45 Super to 22 LR.

[@oubliette862]

that 45 super looks perfect, dumps all the energy with in 7 inches and stops.

[@user-vy5lr3rq7n]

7 inches is bad. On a human, you can usually cut that distance in half with bone and muscle. You want penetration. That is why the FBI wants 12-16... you cut that distance in roughly half. The 45 super might literally knock a guy down, but he very well might get back up. The 10mm leaving a devastating wound chanel, AND taking out the vital organs, bone, muscles etc of everything it hits along the way is going to be a much more crippling hit.

[@RailRoad188]

​@@user-vy5lr3rq7nAgreed except bullets don't "knock people down", they may cause them to stop, start falling down, or drastically modify their behavior, but the simply cannot knock them down or backwards.

[@jdunmyer89rx7]

I really like that energy transfer of the 45 super . The system shock on any living creature would immobilize it .

[@ccwstraightshooter9761]

Do that same test with 45 Super underwood extreme defender and extreme penetrator. No one has tested extreme defender version on KZbin. Test it out of a self defense 3.3” barrel length then 1911 6” barrel. We are all waiting.

[@izzyiz810]

That was a trippy ride on ballistic oddities... You opened up a can of odd worms and now you're going to have to make more videos on .45 super so we can understand the ballistic science of the matter. 😁👍

[@Militaryarmschannel]

I will find a bullet that can handle the increased velocities and do it again. I think an Underwood load would be nice, if I can find them in stock. If I do, I will repeat.

[@smokey-qq6hd]

Just physics, and materials density. Could have complete opposite effect w diff alloys

[@MyCatCarriesAGlock]

Bullet design matters more than caliber.

[@bobbyraejohnson]

Ya if you have the luxury to buy lots of defense ammo.

[@MyCatCarriesAGlock]

@@bobbyraejohnson 99% of gun owners will never need to fire their guns in self defense. Buy enough quality hollow points to fill a few mags and you'll be good. Anything else is just in case.

[@Militaryarmschannel]

That's one very important factor. But an outstanding bullet design going 30fps isn't going to do much. 😀

[@MyCatCarriesAGlock]

@@Militaryarmschannel Yeah, suppose I mean overall cartridge

[@eddievest4096]

@@Militaryarmschannel - 100 lb. round @ 30 FPS would be very effective.

[@jeffreylocke8808]

Rapid expansion of a larger diameter bullet with a weight that is not substantial creates a parachute effect of slowing down.

[@jayscorner5387]

for the 45 +P you can actually see it just pop out of the gel at 17:00-17:01 on the slowest rate of playback 0.25 rate of speed. looks like it expanded but barely made it out of the block. I carry 45 Super in 185 Grain so this was cool to learn. I actually stopped keeping it in the mags because of fear of over-penetration... The more you learn! Geat Video !!

[@joshuasterling2144]

In my mind its a better round because of these properties.

[@tonylittle8634]

The 45 acp may not be as sporty as a 10mm, but I have several LEOs that have used 45acp 1911 on pcp perps and the common thread is that hole (size) in the perps chest

[@BG.........]

Good ole 1911 .45.... can't go wrong 👌

[@Keifsanderson]

FACT. It was specifically fielded to stop drugged-up attackers.

[@marblemarble7113]

.45 acp is good but the ammo for it kinda sucks. Too much momentum not enough speed which really hurts the bullets performance. ideally you would have less momentum and more speed for better expansion/energy transfer

[@gagemason3865]

You’d think that ammo manufacturers would test to see if the bullets they’re loading into different cartridges will work for the velocities they’re pushing them. Sort of like how lots of manufacturers started loading OTM bullets meant for .308 Win velocities into 300 Blk ammo and the buyers find out they don’t expand at all.

[@mattspriggs5945]

Simple answer: 45 ACP has a LARGE frontal surface issue - speeding things up only worsens it. The 45 ACP is my favorite round and I like its performance based on all I've seen around 850 fps.

[@boygirlandadad5814]

Neato! Well I carry a 45ACP and I carry it because imho it is a proven round with excellent man stopping capabilities. No Super or +p. It's a big fat round with sectional density. The other gun I carry is a 10mm. Matter of fact I just got the new S&W M&P 2.0 Compact and its lovely. I like everything about it better than my G brand. I carry the 10mm for a bush gun that will penetrate as deeply as possible, hard cast 220 grain bullets, for stopping... I mean, trying to stop teeth and nails if ever that situation should occur.

[@robinj.9329]

The bullet "opened up"! Presenting much more area to the medium, and thus transferring more energy into the "target"! I'd hate to be on the receiving end.

[@Spanky00Cheeks]

What if you had a beer belly that stuck out 14 inches? :P

[@unknown121290]

@@Spanky00Cheeks ballistics get is not very similar to normal organic tissue…

[@dontbetreadin4777]

@@Spanky00Cheeks it would drop that fat dude in a second and you wouldn't have to worry about anything behind him, Also, There is always another one in the chamber ready to go if need be, I personally think this is an amazing result

[@adamzuraitis3267]

I kind’ve like the supers penetration. Doesn’t blow through the target and ATF the dog by accident.

[@PhycoKrusk]

"ATF the dog" is equal parts disgusting and amusing (unlike the ATF, which is all parts disgusting). I'm going to remember that one

[@pettersaethre]

it probably won`t blow through basic vests or cover either

[@adamzuraitis3267]

@@pettersaethre yea but it’ll take them off their feet and deposit them against the wall I bet

[@nickhundley21]

uh yea thats like 750+ muzzle energy dumped in about 6 inches

[@squirlnutsbigsack4864]

@@adamzuraitis3267 break a bunch of ribs maybe collapse a lung. Yup sounds about right.

[@michaelmclaughlin2663]

I played around with 45 super for several years. I got super violent results with 185gr Sierra HP. Tested with 5 gal vegetable oil jugs filled with water they would split the whole front of the jug, no exit. The jacket and lead fragments that you were lucky enough to find weighed 3-5gr. At the time I was carrying a S&W pro-series compact 1911, I've owned many 45 acp 1911 pistols in all sizes, carried them all, but liked this variant the best. One of my very best friends worked for his brother who owned a butcher shop in the country. His job was to go to farms, put down various types of livestock, bring them back to the dress and clean them so his brother only had to deal with the prepped carcass. Being a disabled Veteran myself, whose probably seen more of this world then I should have, this work really didn't bother me. It was some hard work but also a good way to earn a tew extra dollars. Sometimes I got paid in steaks, awesome job. Used many different firearms to put the animals down, so I started doing some practical experimentation. Low and behold, that pro-series S&W 1911 become my goto gun for the task. Developed a 45 super round that worked perfect from goats to Angus bulls. 45 super 200gr Hornady XTP JHP sitting on top of enough Power Pistol to not show any over pressure signs, moly coated the bullets to reduce pressure spikes (Ms.Moly spray was easiest to use). Fired into the front of a cows skull(imagine an x drawn from eyes to ears. That's the sweet spot). Bullets always mushroomed perfectly, retained at least 98% of weight, never passed through, and the cows brain looked like it was ran through a blender and poured back into the skull case. Just amazing results. Try that round in ballistic gel, I would guess 10 to 12 inches out of a compact firearm. Never had to fire a second round on any animal I put down that way. And alot easier to carry then the 30-30 he used when I wasn't available.

[@exothermal.sprocket]

Sectional density is something to consider between a .400 caliber and .451 caliber. Buffalo Bore doesn't publish SD numbers on the bullets they use, but as a matter of reason I've jumped on Hornady's website and compared their well known XTP bullets between these calibers, same weight as you've chosen in the video. Sectional density comes from the ratio between diameter and weight in a given caliber. Add material to the bullet without increasing diameter, it becomes longer (higher density along the axis). This usually increases the ability to penetrate as there's more remaining mass pushing the bullet ahead even after the bullet nose has undergone deformation. XTP 10mm 180gr: 0.161 XTP 45acp 185gr: 0.130 If you're going to compare unlike calibers and consider penetration vs. velocity, consider starting with similar sectional densities, and the same bullet type if possible. .451 caliber would require 230gr bullet to make 0.162 sectional density, the equivalent to the 180gr in the .400 caliber. Buffalo Bore has exactly that in the 45 super, ITEM 45S230, 230gr rated 1100 fps (618 ft-lb). I would have considered that a similar penetrator with the 180gr you used for the 10mm.

[@TreeTop1947]

THIS! ^^^ If Tim really wanted a fair comparison, he would have used bullets with similar sectional density NOT bullet weight. To be fair to Tim though, he isn't the first nor will he be the last person to just consider bullets of similar weight, even though the diameters are different, to be a viable comparison. Semper Fi, TreeTop

[@johncoleman2495]

That is exactly right! I've done this testing albeit with 2 4.25 inch commanders and with Underwood ammunition loaded with speer gold dots as well as my own hand loads with Hornady XTP's. And again with hard cast loads from Underwood. In the jacketed bullet tests the penetration was nearly identical (within an inch for 5 shots) inexplicably with the cast bullets(200gr 10mm, 255gr .45) the super was shooting completely through 32" of gel(20%) whereas the 10mm was penetrating an average of about 28". My guess is this difference was more bullet profile than the actual capability of either round.

[@exothermal.sprocket]

@@johncoleman2495 It's all about pressure on a given area. If the bullet nose can exert enough pressure to overcome a medium's viscosity, it will. Measured in PSI or MPa or some other value, it's merely bullet energy (mass x speed) times the area (square inch). The reason expanding projectiles slow so quickly is the changing shape simultaneously increases surface area while reducing sectional density, which gives up its movement energy to the impact medium more quickly. Popular talk calls that "energy dump". It's really incorrect, as energy is converted in form (movement into heat, for example), but never lost. The real damage in most tissue is the mechanical crushing/tearing exerted at the actual contact of the projectile, whatever size and shape it is. The effects of shockwave are only useful at much higher velocity than handgun bullets.

[@johncoleman2495]

@@exothermal.sprocket yes, I understand this....

[@exothermal.sprocket]

@@johncoleman2495 Cool beans.

[@jmsmeier1113]

There’s something to be said for a cartridge that dumps that much energy and stops in nine inches. As a police officer in the 80’s and 90’s I carried a S&W model 57 revolver chambered in .41 magnum, but carried .41 spl. ammo to avoid over penetration. I’m pretty confident that a bullet of that size expanding and penetrating that deep would get the job done. In a use of deadly force case, the prosecution will definitely take issue with someone who is carrying an elephant gun for self defense, and paint a negative picture of the shooter.

[@spiritualawakenings6251]

Sure you didn't steal that line from a Dirty Harry movie?

[@Totemparadox]

@@spiritualawakenings6251 Well his legal knowledge is fudd lore so most likely.

[@PhycoKrusk]

@@michaelclausen9331 to you and me, no handgun is an elephant gun. That's because we know better. You cannot make the same assumption about a jury

[@jmsmeier1113]

@@michaelclausen9331 Both Remington and Winchester made and as far as I’m aware still make .41 caliber ammo that is on the razors edge of subsonic, it’s somewhere around 4-500 feet per second slower than the common .41 ammo. Was it advertised as .41 spl. On the box? I don’t remember, I haven’t shot that gun much since I retired in ‘07, but that is what we referred to it as, and that is how we asked for it when we bought it. As far as the elephant gun remark, it seems your obviously picking apart what I said, looking for an argument. Go ahead and pack a .44 mag or a .50 cal. As your daily carry, and if your ever put in a position where you have to use it, see if the prosecutors office doesn’t use that to imply that you are some sort of nut that was looking for and hoping for an excuse to vaporize someone.

[@kevinhaid6211]

Love me some .45 super. Terribly underrated round, doesn’t take a special gun or a whole ton of expensive modding to be able to shoot from most modern .45’s (s&w mp 2.0 in my case). Slightly stronger recoil spring (I use a 20 lb vs the 16 lb that comes from the factory, but you can go up to 24, I don’t ALWAYS shoot super so..has worked for me). Also upgraded the shock buffer, picked up a spare striker spring just in case. Have had no issues thus far and have put at least 3-400 rounds of super through it. Gun still looks and shoots like it did the day I bought it, no excessive wear or anything like that. I would have felt safe trying a round or two with no upgrades honestly, but I’m glad I didn’t.

[@keithwood638]

Love the content man. God bless you

[@brad4690]

I'd love to see this comparison with the underwood ammo. Wouldn't have that expansion issue.

[@armisteadlucascolemanii7256]

That is the only ammo I use for self defense

[@stevedo18able]

The bullet looks like a possible nosler hp. Underwood likes to offer gold dots and I believe that would have had better results.

[@cns1776]

The Lehigh bullets

[@tuculoguey3530]

@@armisteadlucascolemanii7256 extreme penetrator .45 acp would stop a cow

[@armisteadlucascolemanii7256]

@@tuculoguey3530 sure... and I do have to deal with range cows. What it will not do is stop a grizzly bear. Their muscle tissue is 10x denser than a human athlete's. So I use the 10mm extreme penetrator from Underwood. I use their 155 grain HP rounds for the bears that walk on 2 legs. 😉😁🤣

[@jordanhorst6]

I bet they're using a bullet designed for expansion at normal .45 velocities. (850-1000) and just loading it into the hotter supers. when you can you should find another brand of super and compare the two.

[@lauraspitz440]

@Robert Sears Why do you want this crap? Poor penetration and wound channel for $2 a shot.

[@This_is_my_real_name]

@@lauraspitz440 -- Because it's dumping all its energy in the target rather than drilling a hole and going out the back side of the target?

[@mikefelty2625]

@Robert Sears While I agree about the large wound channel and dumping it's energy in a short space being a positive against a potential human attacker. That round would suck against a decent sized predator trying to attack you, especially like a bear. They typically have 12 inches of fatty tissue to get through before even getting close to anything vital. That said, I wouldn't be carrying anything that soft to defend against potential large predators. High velocity, hard projectiles is the way to go in that situation in my opinion.

[@mikefelty2625]

@Robert Sears That is true. Altough that would be kind of funny to see an escaped circus bear steal someone's car.😂 And as far as the thug wearing body armor thing, it's definitely not likely in a defense situation, but, IF it did happen, I have no problem throwing some M855 their way if it happens to be at my home.

[@mikefelty2625]

@Robert Sears I don't have anything in 300 blk, but I am building a long barreled 6.5 grendel at the moment. Kind of opposite of 300 blk in terms of intended range. I like 300 blk, just a little too late for me to get into it for a reasonable amount of money these days as far as ammo. And even though 6.5 ammo is also more expensive, I won't be shooting nearly as many rounds as I would with 300 blk.

[@jeffreylocke8808]

Bullets that violently expand act as a parachute and blocks penetration due to the resistance for the enlarged diameter and correlated reduction in sectional density.

[@johnmcclain3887]

Thanks for saying "if you really like the content, hit the subscribe", I'm sick and tired of so many who suggest doing so before even seeing the content. I like every video I enjoy, even some I have issues with a bit, and I've got no respect for anyone demanding "subscribe, before you know what you like". When calculating total energy transferred, you also have to account for the lifting of the gel block, and the distance of the gel block travel. The substantial increase in The high velocity forced the bullet to expand substantially better than the others. That appears to be almost twice the total area compared to the rounds that completely penetrated. The bottom line is "the sum total energy is always the critical issue". Thanks for this demonstration!

[@vbressner]

What is the preoccupation with matching bullet weight with bullets of different caliber? Nearly every gun channel does this. Matching a heavier 10mm with a light 45 Super. Matching a mid grade 9mm and a light 40 S&W. Wouldn't a fair comparison be a standard 10mm vs a standard 45 Super? 180 or 200 vs 230 or 255? Sectional density is a critical factor in bullet effectiveness, yes handguns shoot bullets.

[@Gaspard129]

It's an attempt to control for a variable (bullet mass), so that the relative velocities of the different cartridges can be more or less compared directly. I agree though, it's kind of a silly academic exercise with limited practical utility. It's generally more useful to compare standard bullet weights for each cartridge and compare kinetic energy if you need to.

[@RichardCranium321]

cant have it both ways in the same video - cant please everyone

[@vbressner]

@@RichardCranium321 I am just pointing out a limitation in the test.

[@MTMILITIAMAN7.62]

@@Gaspard129 The better variable to control is Sectional Density, since it has more of an effect on bullet performance than mass alone. A .40 caliber 180 gr has an SD of .161 and a 200 gr has an SD of .179. The 185 gr .45 cal has an SD of only .13 while the 230 gr has an SD of .162, nearly identical to the .40 cal 180 gr. So to be fair, the 180 gr 10mm would have been tested against the 230 gr .45 Super. The .45 Super wouldn't have had the velocity of the 10mm, and therefore probably not the energy, but energy is almost completely irrelevant to determining handgun effectiveness anyways. The .45 Super would have enjoyed an advantage in mass and momentum, which with equal SD, would have led to better penetration and better all around performance than the lighter load, and would have been a more fair comparison between the performance of both rounds.

[@Gaspard129]

@@MTMILITIAMAN7.62 Right, it's not meant to control for terminal performance. Just to make velocities comparable. If you are doing a terminal performance test on ballistics gel or other testing medium, it's makes no sense to arbitrarily control for bullet mass. Sorry, I didn't make that clear.

[@jabroni6199]

Would love to see a follow up video with different bullet designs.

[@curtiswest4272]

Hollow point bullets are designed to expand and penetrate based on a certain velocity. If the speed exceeds the bullet design it will expand too quick, dump all the energy and penetrate less than if the bullet had been traveling slower and closer to its design. Shooting the Bull channel covered this to some degree as well as other people. Myself included. Glad to see you share this with some of your viewers. As a hand loader it is important to know this if you load ammunition for self defense. As always we appreciate your channel. Most of us never get to try out so many weapons and your reviews are always honest. Thanks again MAC. Keep on rockin!

[@sleeper.simulant7327]

45 ACP rounds are generally designed to expand at slower speeds, so using a bullet of the same construction and speeding it up a few hundred FPS can actually hurt penetration due to rapid expansion. I’m impressed how well the bullet stayed intact, no separation of jacket/core…

[@joshuasterling2144]

Don't know about you but I don't want it leaving the block. Seems to be perfect if you ask me. Like getting slapped by a polar bear up front.

[@comiketiger]

Can you imagine the shock effect from that .45 super in a body, with this quick of an energy drop!? Great video. This was very interesting. Thank you much. God bless all here.

[@AmericanPatriot-cw9xe]

yes sir the grim reaper would surely agree with you, and so would I

[@JohnAmatulli]

Very interesting result. This seems like a “feature not a bug” type of situation. Penetration does not necessarily equate to damage. If you were to check out the lower speed bullet you would probably find it intact and unexpanded. This is similar to the argument of why smaller caliber bullets are less effective (.22) when compared to larger calibers (.30). Even at higher impact velocities as they pass thru rather than delivering energy to the target. If you did something like a “Meat Test” a la Paul Harrell you would find that though the penetration wasn’t as great the devastation was far more significant because of the expanded surface area. It is a question of having the right combination of gun and bullet for the job. Check out some of the tests of round nose versus hollow point shot through windshield glass for example. The HP lose a lot of energy and get deselected far more significantly while the round nose penetrate far better. If you are a police officer you may want that penetration, but then any missed shots also have a larger chance of going well beyond you target, through walls of surrounding homes and cars. Even passing through subjects into innocent bystanders. That is the real world compromise. They are always a team and everything is a compromise.

[@stevedo18able]

You can tell the 45 acp round expanded based on the wound track. It settles down and left the block. That bullet can’t handle the speed. I doubt that was a bonded bullet like a gold dot.

[@JohnAmatulli]

@@stevedo18able It is unfortunate that we don’t know the degree to which it expanded but assuming that it expanded significantly, it definitely expanded much later. That could be considered very good penetration or terrible over penetration depending on the target and desired result. If you are looking to kill a bear than that deeper penetration would probably be desired. Of course a bullet designed to handle the higher speed and retain it’s shape would probably be more effective as you suggested. On the other hand if you want to kill a large wolf with a single shot the slower round may go straight through before the majority of the energy (and potential damage) was delivered, leaving the animal still able to attack for a period. Delivering all that energy in a short distance may be a more devastating result and there is a big difference in amount of energy. That is the compromise. I’d like to see what would happen with a better bullet.

[@JohnAmatulli]

@@stevedo18able Not sure I fully understood. I was referring to the second test with the 10mm in which he used a shorter barrel to reduce the speed, not the .45 acp. We know the .45 acp expanded, just not nearly as much.

[@6236003]

Meh, to a point. You want as much expansion as possible, but if that's at the cost of being able to get adequate penetration I'd rather have something else. Not that .45 Super is a bad round (although there's patent/copyright bullshit that keeps it in the wildcat realm) I just wouldn't use that particular load.

[@JohnAmatulli]

@@6236003 "Too a point" is exactly my point. 12 inches of penetration with full expansion and all the energy delivered may result in a more devastating wound in more cases but not all. That is why the ballistic gel test is not the end all test. On the other hand, I think we can conclusively say that if you are looking for self defense ammo against really fat people I would not go with that round from that gun.

[@OdinX316]

Its the sectional density of the 10 vs the larger bore and the hollow point action. The larger surface area with a hollow point acts like a parachute, it grabs more resistance with increased speed. The 10mm is smaller in contact frontal surface area and hence the parachute is smaller, so it takes longer to brake the momentum.

[@VitaliyBunimovich]

I was today years old when I learned about .45 super. Great video!

[@bobhaehn5470]

That's a big hole in a 45 caliber slug. Turns the projectile into a flying ashtray. You're shooting a bucket bullet LOL

[@derekbutts1782]

Hahahahaha

[@Kulfaangaren]

So is it a good or a bad thing ? I was under the impression that a bullet dumping it's energy quickly in a target was a good thing and that over-penetration was a thing you should avoid? The 45 super still seemed to have good mass retention ?

[@astromoosie]

I just got done watching the video and I was always under the same impression that it's good for bullets to stay in the target. What i'm guessing is this round is really good for self defense but against big animals it would do poorly from it lack of penetration power? Animals have thick fur, more dense muscles and bigger bones.

[@jasonb7878]

Interesting. Makes sense after you see all the testing thank you

[@beckhamhome]

I load and shot 45 Super fairly often. It's not a 185gr friendly cartridge. I used 230gr Gold Dots at 1100 fps, 250gr Speer Deepcurl at 1050 fps. 250/255gr plated FMJ at 1050-1100fps. Those seem to be the weight this cartridge shoots best with. Starline makes the brass.

[@baektpotato]

Episode Title: MAC learns about sectional density.

[@j.t.patton7820]

Actually bullet design is the lesson here.

[@unclegeorge6175]

@@j.t.patton7820 Cross-sectional coefficient is part of bullet design as well as hollow point influx.

[@j.t.patton7820]

@@unclegeorge6175 I'm not denying or arguing these points. The main discovery here is the difference in penetration caused by nothing but a change in velocity and it's effect on this specific bullet.

[@soreloser6018]

@@unclegeorge6175 sectional density is not responsible for this phenomenon. That's what JT is getting at. Don't try and be a sore loser, that's my job.

[@adamerson]

I agree, comparing bullet with similar sectional densities would be more appropriate. Especially comparing the 45 Super to the 10mm. Both cartridges were made with a focus on enhancing penetration; where the 45 acp was designed to efficiently stop men with the limited bullet designs of 1900… essentially non-expanding bullets.

[@jasonromo6499]

The FBI penetration test was more about stretching the maximum wound channel damage. Notice that almost all pistol ammo testing at 13 in the wound channel damage starts to taper off after 6 to 8 inches. Now considering how deep and thick vital organs are this is perfect. The effects of the hydrologic shock to those organs is nuts and the gel does not even come close to showing the real damage done to the human body. Talk to an ER surgeon or a coroner. I personally think this 45 super load is pretty awesome. It has a larger wound channel that matches the length of the 10mm load but adds 100% kinetic energy by stopping at 8 inches. The chance of a one shot incapacitation to a bad guy is incredibly high. I'm not trying to take anything away from the 10mm because I'm a huge fan of it. I just think this 45 super load is no joke. I have shot hogs with both and had incredible results. I don't think you can go wrong with either one.

[@williejr71williams22]

There such a thing as the " speed, penetration, and expansion balance " there is a sweet spot! It's hard to achieve all 3 effectively. Very few cartridges can perform such a task. I have seen this 100 times shooting 9mm out of a long barrel pistol caliber carbine. Try it. You'll see. Good job 👏 brother! You always make great videos!

[@PaulWade87]

A friend of mine asked about the differences between 10 mm Glock vs the 45 Colt revolver. Now I'm a riflemen, so I don't focus on most secondary, the 9mm standard M-I i-a pistol was my favorite, accurate never jammed & packed enough punch. If asked, so I am here to learn about that, couldn't find a video with those two vs each other on a non favoring operater.

[@turbo-bike7999]

All the crap I talked about how strong 45 Super from Buffalo Bore is compared to 10mm and finally a side by side test. Definitely not worth $2.00+ a cartridge from Buffalo Bore. My neighbor definitely will not buy anymore 45 Super from them. I’ll stick with 45 SMC and 45 Super from someone else using a bullet rated for increased speed, obviously BB bullets are everyday 45acp bullets. 10mm 1 and 45 Super 0!

[@freefendii8833]

1900fps black civil 45 acp ammo

[@modulo3664]

Most "regular" .45 super shooters are probably reloading tbh

[@Militaryarmschannel]

I think the mistake that was made was in using a bullet that wasn't rated for that kind of velocity. As I show with the +p load, which uses the exact same bullet, the performance was more in line with what is to be expected. I don't think many bullet makers who produce 45 ACP bullets intend for them to be pushed at such extreme velocities. 45 Super just isn't that popular. Heck, most people likely never heard of it. A bullet designed for these velocities would be scary. I hope to get my hands on some Underwood machined copper bullets. I suspect they'll make the 45 Super shine.

[@MtnBadger]

That was the point of the .45 super according to something I'd read by Ace Hindman, to deliver so much power that it didn't over penetrate the target but rather dump all that energy into the target. Design intention or not, that being the result, it's like hitting the target with a speeding dump truck. More accurately like hitting you with a 12lb sledgehammer at 100mph. It's going to put you down, no matter where in the torso it hits you as opposed to needing to penetrate vital organs as with a 9mm. Slowing it down with a 4.5-5" barrel gives it that extra inch or two of penetration but still no over penetration so all of the kinetic energy is going into the target and that's exactly what *I* want my defense loads to do. Hit you hard and drop you like a rock without endangering someone/thing behind you. A problem with a lot of other rounds, like 9mm & .45ACP ball. I liked the .45 super a lot before seeing this, I love it, now. I like 10mm alternatively so, a Delta 10mm is one "dream gun" and I guess I'll have to get the upgrades for my Colt, 70ser., keeping my Glock 21s for the standard .45ACP ammo. Sounds like a plan... A "butt-stompin'" plan. 😀

[@TechieTard]

That is correct! It's intentional.

[@Edmondson_Avenue]

I agree to a degree, but I also believe that the bullet prematurely expanded due to the higher velocities.

[@MtnBadger]

@@Edmondson_Avenue I'm not sure what you mean or if it's "premature." It can't expand until it hits something and then I want it to open like a parachute, dumping as much as possible as soon as possible... It's going to penetrate enough to do the job, that's for sure and it will hit like a baseball instead of a lemon when it's open so... I'd be happy with it. I can only speak for myself.

[@Edmondson_Avenue]

@@MtnBadger You shouldn't want your hollowpoints to open up that fast, prime example Underwood load gold dots but the velocity is so fast it starts to break a part and disintegrate. I agree that it dumps it's energy but you should want it a little more deeper in the target, if you notice when Tim shot the +P he said it was the same bullet and it travel further with less velocity, the high velocity causes the hollowpoint to prematurely mushroom before getting deep within the target. I believe that they are still a good choice but the lead needs to be a lead alloy of sort to help slow down that expansion time just a little to allow for a deeper penetration, but I do believe that it will sit a man down.

[@MtnBadger]

@@Edmondson_Avenue I understand your point... And proper penetration is good, I'm actually not ignorant of bullet performance characteristics, etc. Personally, I'd rather not get hit with any one of them. And I'm actually partial to the Xtreme defense and penetrator rounds over mushrooms 🍄 😅

[@aex-blacksmithuk2111]

I got to say, your findings did make me sit up and take a lot more notice! Thank you for yet another great video, Cheers! :)

[@jason_m_schmidt622]

Not a surprise. When Underwood pushed the 115gr +p+ gold dot bullet to 1,500+ fps the round stopped at 9” in gel. It’s even worse with .45 Super & .460 Rowland. The rounds either stop short or undergo rapid unscheduled disassembly in the case of the .460 Rowland. Good test thanks MAC

[@phillipcoveney2863]

So if your dumping that energy so quickly. Aren’t you ramping up the damage to what the energy is dumping into?

[@flyingphoenix113]

Precisely. This is the primary difference between a self defense round and a high penetration hunting round. Once the bullet exits the target, any residual energy is simply wasted (or, worse still, striking/penetrating an unintended target and causing collateral damage). Unless you're fighting someone with body armor, you want the round to dump its energy, expand, and come to a halt as quickly as possible.

[@Kobriks1]

@@flyingphoenix113 You need sufficient penetration to reach vital organs. Dumping all energy doesn't mean anything. For example when you shoot someone with body armor bullet dumps all of it's energy into a person but it does minimal damage.

[@chuckschillingvideos]

You're missing the point (seems everyone is). Bullets fired from pistols are simply too anemic to generate wounding from "energy". Anyone talking about the wounding effects from "energy dump" from a service handgun cartridge are simply ignorant. Wounding effects from a handgun bullet are achieved by the cutting/crushing effect of the projectile itself.

[@Toxic9813]

@@chuckschillingvideos the energy of the 45 super would affect how it penetrates the sternum, or other bones in a perps body though

[@seansudenga2697]

@@chuckschillingvideos exactly. I recommend anyone to look at the study, Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness, done by the FBI

[@FlyTour69]

Anybody hear of .40 Super? THAT is another beast round. I still love the 10mm though.

[@arn8475]

Much better than .45 Super

[@mohawk3371]

Moral of the story: Faster isn't always better, and bullet construction does matter. Bullets are designed to act a certain way at a specific range of velocities, That's why a 9mm +P+ loaded with a standard bonded HP may actually underperform a SAAMI spec HP cartridge.

[@blackhawk7r221]

Seems that J. Browning knew that over a hundred years ago when his ACP’s were so much slower than contemporary European 9mm or 7.65’s.

[@GaryBlankenship96b40]

My orginal 10mm built by peter stahl in germany had no ramp and never fed well. Retirned 3 times he took each time more barrel support and i blew it up just as the case you have shown.

[@davelak7892]

I honestly think the projectile was merely too 'soft' for this application, it's like someone didn't look to see what they were actually loading, and merely grabbed the standard "soft" 185 projectiles thinking it was for standard subsonic 45 ACP load, not supersonic 45 Super load. It does make a fine example of how much the pill design matters to the effectiveness of a load design though for those doing hand loads. Also I don't get using a 185 grain in the 45 Super. I know Mac was showing an apples to apples comparison, but the 45 Super is not an apple it is a pineapple. The 45 Super should have been 230 grain MINIMUM, and more likely a 255 grain pill to show what the 45 Super can actually do. The 185 grain pills pretty well neutered the 45 Super before the testing even started. It would be like making 40 grain pills in order to compare 45 Super to 22 LR in my opinion.

[@smithwesson7765]

Sometimes I shake my head at all the silly cartridges that have come along over the years. The .45 "super" is one of those. It fills a need that simply doesn't exist and the old .45 ACP chugs along at 830 fps or so, at low pressures and still gets it done. Honestly, there's not much in the semi-auto world that beats the 10mm in its full 200 grain Norma load at 1200 fps.

[@cletustheslackjawedyokel6083]

People hand load .45 Super with hard cast wad cutters or 250 grain Hornady XTP Bullets for .45 Colt revolvers and get much better penetration. It isn’t uncommon for hunters to have these loads pass entirely through deer and pigs. So you get penetration similar to 10mm, but with a bigger hole through the animal. It’s not surprising that if you use .45 acp bullets designed to be fired at 900 fps and drive them much faster, they fail by over expanding.

[@fireball1322]

Checked out the .38 Super ballistics compared to 1omm's lately?

[@sillybilly44444444]

16:16: Don't forget about sectional density. Remember that, despite being a relatively heavy projectile, the .45 185gr. bullet has a rather low sectional density of .129, which is even less than a 9mm 115gr. (which is .131).

[@bennythargrave]

I think this video is a good demonstration of the concept of diminishing returns

[@laszlovandor4770]

If there is only one pistol I can have , I take my G20 with extra 6" and 9" barrels and use rounded flat nose fmj .

[@randomcontent2205]

That hot .45 is dumping a lot of energy, would likely be impressive hydro-static shock.

[@trijfarms]

There you go “Hydro-Static shock” that was the phenomenon that I was thinking about!

[@Jim-su7en]

Experienced Reloaders load 45 super up to 460 Roland velocities. I’ve seen it done with 45 super star line brass. No overpressure just monster power.

[@billrichards7851]

I'm a 10mm guy, but the point of the bullet is to deliver all the energy into your target. Looks like the 45 super will do that. Add some clothing like Paul Harrell and retest the penetration.

[@AshGreen359]

The problem with 10mm is that you have to be careful with your ammo choice, otherwise it's often nearly identical to .40S&W

[@jerseycasull4546]

Buffalo Bore and Underwood Ammo loads 10mm to Norma specs, 180gr@1350fps & 200gr@1250fps. 180gr cooks out of my Springfield TRP long slide at around 1425fps

[@AshGreen359]

@@jerseycasull4546 you chose wisely

[@travissmith8017]

Double tap ammo is really good 10mm ammo if you can find it

[@justinsordahl813]

Hand loads!!!!

[@Lexicologist1971]

@@bryanr.4947 , I've seen Federal American Eagle 10mm and 40 S&W tested side by side. They were equal weight bullets (180 gr.) but the 40 was actually a little faster. Winchester White Box 10mm is only loaded to 1030fps, advertised.

[@thehimself4056]

Two things I changed years ago. 1. Ditched the 1911 and anything 1911 in likenesses. It was great in 1911. But better options exist. 2. Ditched the 45. Went to 10mm. I was laughed at in the 90s for being the only known guy with a Glock 10mm for grizzly bears. Back then I had to load my own, today, store bought stuff is as good as my 90s reloading days. Great video.

[@jaws40966]

Check out lucky gunner’s ballistics tests on lever gun calibers. 44 and 357 defensive rounds consistently under-penetrate out of long barrels due to the rapid expansion that occurs at higher velocities. The same rounds penetrate perfectly at handgun velocities.

[@HK-qj4im]

MAC kinds giggled a few times. YES.. these are some awesome rounds.