5.56: Real vs Fake M193

[@mcantu197]

you should mention what the official M193 spec specifies for velocity: "The average velocity of the sample cartridges, conditioned at 70° ± 2° Fahrenheit (F), shall be 3165 feet per second (ft/sec) plus or minus 40 ft/sec, at 78 feet from the muzzle of the weapon.The standard deviation of the velocities shall not exceed 40 ft/sec." (this is from a 20" barrel)

[@FlatlanderGear]

This is the exact spec from the manual. I just kept it simple for this video.

[@TerminalM193]

I've been through so many different M193 cartridges and clones in the thousands. For me, the most consistent, well made and most accurate M193 is made by IMI. I've been through MANY of their lots over the past 8 years and nothing but consistency.

[@David_Quinn1995]

IMI is very consistent, Winchester and PMC should be embarrassed to advertise there stuff as 556 M193

[@jalowery1246]

Indeed that PPU(Prvi Partizian i think) is some hot stuff AND I've found it to be fairly accurate. Earlier this year it was priced right also, hoping to catch another deal on them.

[@user-oy9zy4ds9m]

I heard that many Vietnam vets did not complain at all about the stopping power of the m16 up to 100 meters in fact up to that distance they said the wounds on enemies looked very similar to 308

[@DanUtley]

Nothing like that 55 gn round screaming out of a long barrel with a 1:12 twist rate (IIRC). MAC did a video comparing old faithful (M193) out of a retro barrel (18” or 20” with 1:12 rifling) against a modern rifle shooting M855 or something through watermelons. The M855 obviously would’ve killed the guy, but it was punching through nicely. The M193 looked like he was using a grenade launcher.

[@DerWaidmann_]

Thank you so much for making this video, useful information and deserves more attention

[@Innawoods7614]

Best ammo analysis video ive seen yet. Earned my sub.

[@FlatlanderGear]

@@Innawoods7614 thank you very much!

[@SPECIESUNKN0WN]

Good to see a domestic market product that stacks up. If you can, you definitely should find some some independence m193. That is as hot of a factory load as I’ve ever seen.

[@Surveillance-Opertaor-Zero]

makes sense.. winchester is running lake city right now

[@charlesludwig9173]

The bottom-line is buy a chronograph because it’s the only way to produce a trajectory calculation which will get you a bullet drop compensation function that is accurate enough for point of aim and point of impact to intersect at distance.I am now shooting Mk262 from a 20 inch 5.56 1/7 FN HF barrel, getting 2750 fps muzzle velocity and my trajectory calculation is spot on in standard atmospheric conditions. The round is about MOA to 600 yards as proven in slow fire stage of US Service Rifle Competition.

[@jayjohnston5481]

Excellent testing of the 5.56 factory loads. Needed to include IWI ammo.

[@FlatlanderGear]

Thank you! I took whatever was available in my area. I will test IMI soon, I only hear good things about it.

[@TooManyChoices1]

Before I watch I’m assuming Winchester m193 will be very closer to spec.

[@FlatlanderGear]

And then some

[@abelabner]

Great information and well laid out

[@FlatlanderGear]

Thank you!

[@drywallman1986]

I thought this was known 5.56 box velocities are for 20 inch barrel and 223 box velocities are out of 24.

[@FlatlanderGear]

@@drywallman1986 now it is ;) You just don’t see it labeled on a lot of ammo.

[@drywallman1986]

@FlatlanderGear yea some ammo doesn't say

[@nicholascairo1517]

I would love to see a similar video on m855!

[@FlatlanderGear]

It’s in the works!

[@schizosaint777]

This is actually great info, especially if you have an etched reticle optic, like my new vortex 5x 😎

[@FlatlanderGear]

Thanks boss! How do you like it so far?

[@schizosaint777]

@@FlatlanderGearGreat considering it weighs less then my Romeo 7! Need to take it on a few hikes and shoots before I give my recommendation, but so far nothing to complain about. It makes ACOGs seem long in the tooth

[@Gahmaz0z]

I've had the Spitfire for a few months now. I zeroed it for 77gr SMK moving 2675, in preparation for a range trip. I wasn't expecting to be able to use the BDC but it actually worked. 4, 5 and 600 yard holds were dead on for shooting 12" steel plates...Guess the trajectory is close enough.

[@paddypibblet846]

@@Gahmaz0z you're shooting 12 inch plates so usually within the MOA of the BDC

[@Gahmaz0z]

@@paddypibblet846 Good point

[@ilikedirtx22]

Thanks for the great video

[@cadencero5313]

Great information!

[@FlatlanderGear]

Thank you!

[@sharoncoleman4742]

X tac pic is my go to 55 g fmj😊

[@FlatlanderGear]

It’s the best bang for your buck

[@thalesofmiletus6162]

Something I never understood. Why is there fudd lore, even amongst people who claim they have served, where m193 just "passes through" at close ranges, because its going so fast?

[@FlatlanderGear]

Don’t make me do another video during midterms

[@thalesofmiletus6162]

@@FlatlanderGear Oh no, not another honest, well informed, entertaining video. Seriously good content my guy. Tbh, been wanting to pick up the vortex 5x. been itching for a modern, acog like, lightweight prism. So much so I'm actually tempted to try out some chinesium instead since the market seems kinda slim for what western companies should be able to pull off. Your video comparing prisms was what got me onto your content: you literally listed all the relevant western prism optics that I myself researched into in my own endeavors, even swampfox. Love your mindset. Keep it up dude!

[@FlatlanderGear]

@@thalesofmiletus6162 Yeah the temptation was very strong. I will be putting more content out there soon. The ACOG definitely does a lot of things well but concepts like the various 3X and 5X options we have out there right now cannot be overlooked at their price range. Thank you again for the kind words.

[@heyhayhay247]

My guess is that they missed and blamed the round

[@BBEEAATTNNGGUU]

@@FlatlanderGear Please do the vid!

[@alvaroeloredo]

Great info man, looks like I'll be ditching my xtac over to Winchester white box

[@truonghthe]

Xtac for range practices and Winchester for a rainy day. No need to shoot high end M193 at paper unless you are zeroing the rifle for that load.

[@FlatlanderGear]

Thank you! I wouldn't throw away or count out the XTAC for practice but be sure to have easy to access for both. In my area, they are the same price so I just go for what's hotter.

[@FlatlanderGear]

@@truonghthe if XTAC is cheaper, probably not a bad idea to stock it.

[@truonghthe]

@@FlatlanderGear Xtac been hover around $0.41 ppr for past couple of weeks, i got several occasions lucky buying Winchester M193 for under $0.47 ppr. I normally buy a case and save that way since some place will do free ship for a case.

[@donwyoming1936]

I assume any actual combat I may ever find myself in would be at 100 yards or less. Probably very close range. So, any of these loads would provide adequate fragmentation from a 16 to 20 inch barrel. That wouldn't stop me from buying the highest velocity M193 I can get.

[@ryanpeck3377]

The reason the .223 is so much lower than the box is because of how velocity is measured for it. 5.56 is measured from a 20” barrel, .223 is measured from a 24” barrel (per the SAAMI requirement. which was put in place when .223 was developed in the 1960s for use as a varmint round and was shot out of longer barreled bolt action rifles)

[@FlatlanderGear]

Agreed! I covered it in the video!

[@elingeniero9117]

Partly, the main reason the Winchester 223 Remington is so much lower velocity than the velocity printed on the box is because the SAAMI Remington chambers and NATO chambers are different. Using 223 Remington loads in a NATO chambered barrel will drop the peak pressure as much as 7,000 psi because of the longer bullet jump to the lands of the NATO barrel compared to a Remington barrel.

[@whatsmolly5741]

@El Ingeniero it works the other way around as well, you're looking at about 2.5mm or .09 inches of extra space in 5.56 chambers, so if you take a spicy max load 5.56 and shove it in your .223 chamber that pressure will go up by 7k, and if you're already at 62k congratulations you've hit nearly 70k psi because youtube said 5.56 and .223 are the same.

[@Texas_Vril]

Good job brother. Very helpful

[@FlatlanderGear]

Thank you boss!

[@truonghthe]

Great video and data gathered, the only thing i wish Winchester 5.56 M193 clone having bullet and primer sealed for long term storage like PPU and IMI.

[@FlatlanderGear]

This will be something that I might address in a later video. I think storage inside the home will not require sealants but outdoor storage will definitely need some. Laquer-cased steel might fare better in certain cases vs brass in a highly humid environment (as counterintuitive as that sounds.)

[@DronesUnder2A]

If it's inside you're good. It's not 1905 anymore

[@elingeniero9117]

OK this presentation contains some confusion regarding pressures and chambers. 223 Remington, 223 M193 (Original 22 caliber M16 loads) later renamed 5.56 M193 and contemporary 5.56 NATO "M193" commercial loads sold by Lake City all share the same allowable maximum pressures: 50,000 psi using the Copper Crusher method and 55,000 psi using the Piezoelectric transducer. The differences between NATO and Remington designated ammunition are purely due to the geometries of the chambers resulting in different peak pressures for the same powder charges. Both MIL c 9963f and the SAAMI documents are on line for you to download and verify the pressure information, velocities information, and testing requirements.

[@FlatlanderGear]

The increased velocity of 5.56 vs .223 is not chiefly from the chamber dimensions but from the higher charge weights for equivalent bullet weight. The chamber was certainly developed to prevent excessive pressure spikes caused by hotter loads but M855A1 is loaded beyond what those spikes sometimes are and some .223 chambers will take 5.56 loads safely. On top of this, these chamber dimension also aid in feeding and chambering for M16s/M4s as they get dirty. Truthfully there is enough dimensional variation in chambers that overlap in peak pressures will occur across these different permutations of chambers and loads. I’d dare say there is more velocity and pressure variation rifle to rifle within chamber than round to round, within load. Online data is a guide and nothing more.

[@elingeniero9117]

@@FlatlanderGear "The increased velocity of 5.56 vs .223 is not chiefly from the chamber dimensions but from the higher charge weights for equivalent bullet weight." Maybe I was not clear. Ammunition makers have to increase the charge of a particular powder when loading for a NATO chamber to push a 55 grain bullet to the same velocity that a 223 Remington chambered rifle achieves. A 223 Remington White box will have as much as a 6000 psi drop in NATO AR barrels. The NATO chamber was not developed to prevent pressure spikes. FN had to ream out the leade so that very long roundish 1.15 inch tracer could still fit in an AR magazine and last for the 800 meters the U.S. required. The long tracer also resulted in the 1:7 rifling that screws up the performance of the lighter projectiles. That is the cartridge you should never put in a 223. You could be jamming the bullet into the lands.

[@FlatlanderGear]

@@elingeniero9117 I can potentially see this happening between a milspec and match .223 chamber. A tighter chamber for the same load can increase pressures. I’m definitely in agreement with the twist rate and longer throat choice with tracers as well and failed to mention it. Honestly, the pressure drop effect you mentioned would be an interesting test to do in another video. I appreciate your insight into this.

[@dlm32067]

Hot .223 loads shot from a .223 chamber will have about the same pressure as a 5.56 shot from a 5.56 chamber. The 60,000+ psi from a NATO round would be measured from a .223 chamber. It is true that 5.56 are loaded hotter, but the 5.56 chamber negates much of the pressure difference. You are right about the .223 being specified from a longer barrel but also a tighter chamber. Short barrel plus 5.56 chamber yielded the poor performance for .223 in this case. Overall, great test! Just a little confusion over the full difference between .223 and 5.56.

[@student1979oct]

It can be pretty interesting when you load a mag with various ammo that fell to the bottom of the bag. Some of it is FAR louder than others.

[@FlatlanderGear]

Yep, I tried this and it is absolutely true

[@AlexKS1992]

XTAC is my plinking ammo, same with Federal, I love Winchester and Lake City ammo. I’ve yet to try out Hornady Frontier, S&B, PPU or even IMI but I’m sure I’ll try them out at some point. Mind you those are 5.56 loads and not .223 loads. I don’t shoot a lot of .223 Remington.

[@FlatlanderGear]

Yeah the loads I tried were decently accurate or at least on par with each other at 75 yards. My issue is that this distance isn’t quite good enough to assess accuracy. 100-300 showed variation a lot better. Interestingly enough, the PMC had the smallest groups out of all of these at 75 for me. All of these loads have nodal accuracy behavior. Again, I’ll likely get into this in another video.

[@jamfd3s788]

you plink with XTAC, i stock XTAC as one of my quality ammos its the best "real spec" M193 for the money and fairly accurate as well

[@FlatlanderGear]

@@jamfd3s788 I’d stock it a bit more if it were cheaper than hot M193 in my area. However, if it’s an inherently more accurate round, I see serious potential in a 18” SPR or 20” M16.

[@coltenswindle3827]

Please do this same video for m855

[@FlatlanderGear]

In the works!

[@Mister_Belvidere]

I have my AR zeroed with WWB 5.56 M193. I've found it to be very accurate and devastatingly effective on non living targets, though I usually shoot inside 100 yards so my experience might not be the best representation of what this ammo can really do.

[@FlatlanderGear]

Agreed, that’s what I’ve decided to stock for general purpose. It’s the same price as lower powered stuff too.

[@bobbyc2768]

winchester is true spec m193, as long as it says 5.56 m193 on the box, not the .223 rem that advertises the same velocity. 223 is tested out of a 24" barrel to get the advertised velocity, 5.56 m193 is tested with a 20" barrel. they used to make it for the military and i think they still might

[@DronesUnder2A]

@@bobbyc2768 lake city yes. Here in MO about 20 minutes from me

[@jcoolG192]

There seem to be a lot of commenters thinking IMI M193 is loaded hot. That hasn't been the case for some years now. IMI and Sam at SGammo have stated that it has been downloaded because of complaints of blown primers. It wasn't the fault of the ammo, but that's another issue. IMI isn't the only brand that has done it.

[@FlatlanderGear]

By the time a particular factory loading practice has been documented in common conversation, the loading is likely to have changed quite a bit. I’ve been getting this issue with Winchester 69gr match actually.

[@jcoolG192]

@@FlatlanderGear I believe it was 2017-2018 when IMI started downloading their 5.56. It isn't just M193 either. The Mk 262 clone is about 80ish fps slower than earlier lots I had from 2016. It's still excellent ammo, and I still buy it, but it's not up to spec velocity wise. I don't like that companies neuter M193 but still market it as such. It's basically giving you near 16" velocities from 20" barrels.

[@danielcurtis1434]

Dude!!! Eugene Stoner basically made .223. He identified .222 Remington abd used it to build an overpressure load.

[@Capt-awesome]

This is great info. Can you repeat in the M885 or SS109? Ammo being about the same price point might as well buy the most consistent.

[@FlatlanderGear]

Thank you! M855 is likely coming next for ammo reviews.

[@paddypibblet846]

I could be wrong, but if I'm not mistaken most, if not, all M855 is done to strict specifications.

[@FlatlanderGear]

@@paddypibblet846 yes, I don’t hear of much variation among loads. Soon to be proven in an upcoming video

[@paddypibblet846]

@@FlatlanderGear can't wait man. I like your content.

[@jakecheck3225]

I've had success out of 16 inch psa rifles with ppu. Granted it's the FN forged barrels they used to offer with their rifles.

[@FlatlanderGear]

Chrome Lined?

[@jakecheck3225]

@@FlatlanderGear absolutely. From what I understand they are offering them once again with their Sabre line. I bought mine a few years ago when you could pick up a FN chrome lined barrel ar upper for under 400 dollars. I lucked out.

[@boopy123]

​@@jakecheck3225yeah dude I heard about that price they had on those! Now they're like $200 more! I got a Sabre upper with the FN CL Barrel a few months back too, and for what it's worth, the price point is Still good. Just not like what they used to offer on them 😅

[@427SuperSnake1]

This is why I do not rely on M193 for defensive purposes as it’s way to velocity dependent. Heavier OTM’s and ballistic tips are much less velocity dependant than M193..

[@timr8431]

Very informative. Good video👍

[@FlatlanderGear]

Thank you!

[@andreball9644]

I was hoping to see some IMI xm193 based on the video thumbnail ;). Do you have any velocities for IMI ammo that didn’t make it in the video?

[@FlatlanderGear]

I have old data from 2021 but at a different temperature and sample size. I’d put it close to where the Winchester and PPU M193 are, just a bit hotter in some cases. I don’t have access to this load today though… Call it 3150-3180 out of a 16” at the muzzle and at least 3300 out of a 20.”

[@andreball9644]

Thanks for confirming it’s on the hot end of the full power stuff.

[@truonghthe]

@@andreball9644 IMI is slightly less hot than Winchester 5.55 M193 but it hotter than most 5.56 M193 label on the shelf.

[@joemomma7183]

@@FlatlanderGear what is the year of production on that IMI you are talking about?

[@FlatlanderGear]

@@joemomma7183 mine was from early 2021

[@Tadders]

You need to measure jacket thickness, thats the defining factor with M193. Uncommon arsenal knowledge. But that's what determines how well it fragments. If it has too thick if a jacket, it has a hard time fragmenting

[@FlatlanderGear]

@@Tadders that’s a really good point. If there is anything you guys would like me to do a deep dive and analysis of on the terminal ballistics side, I’d love to do it.

[@05cesarleo]

Nice!! Wonder which gad the best grouping?

[@FlatlanderGear]

XTAC was noticeably tighter

[@TerminalM193]

I went through a long testing process of finding proper M193 myself as well. Got tired of all the claimed M193 with severely dumbed down charge. So far I've only found 4 brands using a pro chrono. Winchester, ppu, Hornady Frontier & imi. Still need to get my hands on some s&b. In your opinion, do you find M193 to still be terminally acceptable out of a 14.7" barrel for 100 yards and in?

[@FlatlanderGear]

S&B will perform similar to Frontier as shown in the video. As for the 14.7, it should work quite well for the fragmentation mode 100 yards and in. Past this, fragmentation seems limited for the 55gr.

[@jstud999]

Federal m193 marked as 5.56 not 223 has been pretty consistent

[@nelsonr1467]

So what were your results? What m193 was real m193

[@TerminalM193]

@@nelsonr1467 Read my entire original comment, I stated my findings. You can now add Federal XM193 to that list as well.

[@coltkiss.45]

I found imi stuff has been pretty hot

[@FlatlanderGear]

One of the hotter ones and decently accurate

[@liamcraig374]

Winchester 5.56 is the way to go, lake city ammo hits different

[@FlatlanderGear]

For pure power and in the right barrel, WWB is hard to beat

[@breathe75]

I was looking for the IMI comparison. Since that was the picture on your thumbnail photo for the video, do you have that info?

[@FlatlanderGear]

It’s in a follow up video

[@austindiaz6767]

You should test 77 grains they are great

[@FlatlanderGear]

I’d be delighted to if they were available in my area. I’m stuck handloading for them.

[@austindiaz6767]

@@FlatlanderGear that sucks maybe when u can find them I subed because u make great content

[@eddiearchuleta615]

My favorite is independence m193 2013-2014 lots goes 2900 from my 10.5 3230 from my 16 and 3450-3500 from my 20 inch

[@FlatlanderGear]

That is definitely one of the hotter ones offered. I dare say that borders on requiring some parts replacement once in awhile… That starts to get close to M855A1 pressures…

[@darianballard2074]

Cool video and dead on.

[@johnlew5972]

where is the IMI

[@FlatlanderGear]

It’ll be in a M193 part 2. I don’t have access to it at the moment.

[@chuckfinley3152]

Strelok is awesome

[@johnlew5972]

Why didnt you put one of these on your thumbnail???

[@FlatlanderGear]

Rushed the thumbnail but I will include the IMI in another video

[@Gunmonkey5]

What ballistics calculator are you using?

[@FlatlanderGear]

www.strelokpro.online/StrelokPro/android/default.asp

[@modulo3664]

I would argue supersonic velocity ranges are rather irrelevant for such a light bullet. Wind drift will be kicking your ass badly by that point.

[@FlatlanderGear]

Depends on use case. I argue that extended practice at 600 yards will make 400 and in shooting extremely easy because of reps with wind calls.

[@kilewinfrey4917]

What's up with putting "YIKES" over a box of IMI in the thumbnail then not even reviewing IMI?

[@FlatlanderGear]

Irony really. IMI actually makes some of the best loads out there. I like their 55gr and 77gr. I will do a follow up video once I am able to get my hands on some.

[@joemomma7183]

@@FlatlanderGear please do!! And tell what year of production IMI you are going to use

[@josephdixon1827]

I disagree on the velocities at range, although there is no way for now at chronographing velocities out at those ranges, I still think that bullet or any rifle bullet is still at or close to the speeds it had when leaving the muzzle, I seen the 556mm bullet do horrific things out to 500 yards on 2x4 target frames. Sorry, I just have to disgree with the math on it for now.

[@FlatlanderGear]

I don’t think I agree. Major projectile manufacturers are using Doppler radar to capture velocities past 300 yards for a more complete ballistic picture when it comes to BC. Sierra and AB would never publish variable BCs without this.

[@josephdixon1827]

@@FlatlanderGear Well, all the egg heads with all the fancy machines never taken into account one factor in all of that. Momentum. As a former U.S. Marine Infantryman, I have personally seen that little roud do amazing things at extended ranges, 300 and 500 yards respectively. It shreed the 2x4 wood target frames and other things I seen shredded by it, that said, the numbers simply do not match what I seen.

[@josephdixon1827]

@@FlatlanderGear But I did enjoy your video irregardless. It was very Informative.

[@Mk2four3]

Winchester may have good velocity but in ny experience their quality control is complete doo doo. Meanwhile X-tac can shoot sub-MOA out of my 20in. SL8 which makes it a great paper punching ammo, but for rainy day I think I'll stick to Federal/Frontier/Hornady

[@FlatlanderGear]

Where it be QC or just not the right load for the barrel, there are a lot of factors at plsy. Each barrel is an animal onto itself. XTAC happened to work fine for mine as well as did WWB. SDs weren't great but accuracy was generally good.More testing coming up soon.

[@Mk2four3]

@@FlatlanderGear I absolutely agree. I hand load so I've seen myself that different barrels don't agree with the same bullet but I worry especially for WWB because others have also expressed their concern online and in different calibers to boot about just bad accuracy and quality. M193 is cool but I think I'll try my hand at cloning Mk262 since I'm craving accuracy. Thanks for your work

[@bigtrev761]

🇦🇺😎👍

[@mikepaul3200]

My take. 100 out of 100 dead insurgents could not identify what round hit them in the face or how fast. Yes the power is nice. But im after accuracy. I cleaned out my local gun store of ammo. Ran everything I had through my 2 ars. 1 race gun, one stock m4. The winchester didnt remotely thrill me. Since they took over lake city. Quality control went out the window. I think they have michael j fox measuring powder loads. Hands down worst groupings ive seen. I ended up going with pmc and imi. The latter is a bit spicier. The pmc is more accurate.

[@FlatlanderGear]

Accuracy is another conversation entirely. From my experience the PPU had good SDs but awful accuracy. Winchester M193 had terrible SDs but my rig loves it. Frankly, there are enough variables where I might have to do a video series on accuracy and precision. For most civ and LE, engagements are inside 200 yards with a red dot. M193 performs more than adequately at this distance. If you want to go DMR/SPR, yes you can recover some of that back in a longer barrel using lower power M193 and 223 but for carbine use at shorter ranges, hotter is more logical under stress.

[@DronesUnder2A]

Yeah that makes sense IF you can hit your target 👌 Using different charges with the same name on the box may not be the best for that.

[@hiramhaji7813]

I like the way you think 😅

[@AccumbensNucleus]

Went out of my way to come and give a thumbs down. Putting a box of IMI, implying it’s fake, then not testing or even talking about it is pure clickbait BS. 👎, No sub, never watching this channel again.

[@FlatlanderGear]

Sorry dude, can I at least get a view from you?

[@AccumbensNucleus]

@@FlatlanderGear I'm sending it to IMI so they can view it. Israeli ammo, Jewish lawyers, a Libelous portrayal of their products... should generate more views.

[@blazerbarrel2]

Fake video , imi wasn’t in the mix that was advertised ! Bad thinking , work a little harder to get it right before you post .

[@FlatlanderGear]

Fake like AI? What’s going on?

[@paddypibblet846]

20 inch barrel solves a lot of these problems. Making training ammo into effective ammo. Either way. Everyone knows the most important thing is shot placement anyways.

[@FlatlanderGear]

Barrel length can definitely help with a lot of these loads. A light 20” govt profile is surprisingly handy with a light handguard.

[@wadesipes9321]

Belgrade Montana?

[@FlatlanderGear]

Yes