5 Jewish proofs for the Magisterium (with Suan Sonna)

In this episode Trent sits down with fellow apologist Suan Sonna as they discuss five pieces of evidence in the Old Testament that point towards Christ’s desire to establish a hierarchical teaching authority for believers, or the Church.
To support this channel: / counseloftrent

[@intellectualcatholicism]

Hey, everyone! Suan here. I just wanted to make a minor correction: I had cited the Babylonian Talmud Makkot 11b, but the correct citation is Makkot 23b. I originally cited 11b, because Jacob Neusner, a respected scholar in the field, had the passage cited as such in one of his books. Either he made a simple mistake or is working from a different version. I've updated the citation in my paper "The Biblical Case for an Infallible Magisterium" on my Academia page. Sorry about that!

[@jperez7893]

I hope more Catholic academics explore the textual variants of hebrew manuscripts of the New Testament. One particular Hebrew researcher is Nehemia Gordon. He has particularly exposed a textual variant of the passage of Matthew 23:3 to actually read, thus, “so do whatever he (moses) tells you (the torah/pentateuch) but do not follow their (the pharisees) takanot ( rabbinic traditions). Check Nehemia Gordon for a fuller exposition of the textual criticism of this passage based on newly discovered Hebrew variants of hebrew manuscripts of the New Testament. There are even hebrew manuscripts that solve the matthean genealogy; and the full name of God YHVH is written down in the New Testament. Also the veil of the temple was torn in two because the stone lintels of the temple broke in two because of the earthquake; which makes perfect practical sense how it happened. Furthermore, if you listen to zev porat, a messianic jew, and former orthodox jew, do outreach to Israelis in the Hebrew language, the Trinity slaps you in the face when it is spoken in Hebrew! The concept is crystal clear in the Hebrew language! The Holy Spirit emerges distinctly and uniquely apart as Jesus is uniquely distinct from the God the Father and God the Holy Spirit, but they constitute the One God, not separately but cohesively as the Trinity of Catholic understanding and profession. But the concept of the Blessed Trinity is more understandable and more comprehensible when it is explained and expounded in the original Hebrew language. Listen to zev porat proclaim the gospel to the jews on the streets- that is when the Trinity is clearly revealed.

[@lukebrasting5108]

Love your content. Do you plan on writing any books? I'm sure there would be a few publishers willing to help you if you do (Catholic Answers, Sophia Institute Press, TAN etc).

[@jperez7893]

@@lukebrasting5108 who? Me?

[@intellectualcatholicism]

@@lukebrasting5108 If you're talking to me, I had fully intended to write a book. Unfortunately, I've simply run out of time. I'm finishing up college and, if God wills, it, going to enter the Dominican Order.

[@hugomunoz9039]

@@intellectualcatholicism Congrats! God's timing is perfect and may the Holy Spirit continue to illuminate you and guide you 🙏 Thanks for defending the Faith 🙏

[@vaderetro264]

Intuition was fundamental to my conversion also. After a whole life (I'm 48yo) as an atheist, then recently as a timid believer attracted only by Orthodoxy, on 28th January 2022 I woke up Catholic . Literally, that very morning I knew I was a Catholic: all my strong intellectual and emotional doubts were gone. My heart for the first time didn't feel hard and cold.

[@carchase1411]

This brings me so much joy!!! Blessings to you Brother! That day is also the feast of St. Thomas Aquinas! How beautiful! You are in my prayers!

[@joechriste7052]

You brought to mind my own conversion experience and this scripture. It’s a different feeling when your heart has been changed by God. Ezekiel 36:26 26 A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

[@vaderetro264]

@@carchase1411 Thank you, God bless you!

[@vaderetro264]

@@joechriste7052 Only one or two days before the conversion I remember still strongly disagreeing with several Catholic dogmas such as those about Papal supremacy and Mary being the Mother of God. 'No way I can believe that'. And long before I'd accepted the idea that I'm too rational and cold-hearted a person to ever feel the living presence of God. It was really a sudden transformation. I'm happy you can relate to my story, those verses describe perfectly what happened. God bless you, brother.

[@joechriste7052]

@@vaderetro264 I completely relate. I spent many years away from God and fell to the many arguments out there because I just didn’t fully understand. About 2 1/2 yrs ago I began to have this lingering question in my mind about knowing God. How am I supposed to know Him if He’s invisible and I can’t have a conversation with Him? This question ate away at me and caused me to dig deeper and find the answers. I found the the answers to my questions about the faith and found out that the Church had answers for these questions for centuries. Then I found how to really pray, how to have that conversation with God and listen for Him. I had no idea how important that day was going to be for me, but it seems as though God had always planned for that day to be the day that I came home as His “prodigal son”. He answered me and overwhelmed me with His Spirit and changed my heart in an instant. I used to never be a man who would tear up, but I can’t help myself when it comes to God and what He has done for me and others. God Bless you and welcome home!

[@ReasonandTheology]

Watching. Good stuff so far.

[@TheChunkyCrusader]

Ayo the Patriarch of Nuance has made his presence known

[@redacted428]

"Most jews do not like to admit it, but our god is Lucifer and we are his chosen people." - Harold Wallace Rosenthal

[@TheChunkyCrusader]

@@redacted428 we're talking about Jews before Christ. The system before Christ

[@eg4848]

@@redacted428 nobody cares about your random no context quote - abraham lincoln

[@TheJewishCatholic]

Well done as always Suan. Great of Trent to have you on.

[@deusimperator]

Where have you been??? Emailed you...

[@TheJewishCatholic]

@@deusimperator did you? I’m sorry I missed it. Been busy with the new baby but I hope to be back within a week or two!

[@deusimperator]

@@TheJewishCatholic I think I sent you something about the 3 branches of the Prophet Ezra's government and how Christ institutes these in the Ecclesia

[@TheJewishCatholic]

@@deusimperator send it again if you don’t mind.

[@augustvonmacksen2526]

Suan is a gift to the next generation of Catholic apologetics.

[@lonelyberg1808]

He *is* the next generation ( I think he is only 21 or something, that's insane )

[@lonelyberg1808]

@@tony1685 Hi Tony, take it easy buddy. Do you know Suan before saying that ? I see you everywhere writing the same kind of comments but did you watch the video before saying these kinds of stuff ?

[@lonelyberg1808]

@@tony1685 We all know your life by heart Tony, there is no longer any need to make introductions, I also talked to you before. Btw what did Suan say was wrong in the video, please tell me ?

[@lonelyberg1808]

@@tony1685 this one Tony

[@lonelyberg1808]

@@tony1685 nice try ? What did I do ? I just asked you a question that you didn't answer. There is no try Tony

[@nickdon]

Suan Sonna is from the North-Eastern Part of India a state which is closer to mine. I'm so proud of him for being a Catholic convert.

[@TheMarymicheal]

Wait, what?? I live in North eastern India I heard he is from south East Asia.

[@nickdon]

@@TheMarymicheal he is From Manipur

[@nickdon]

@@TheMarymicheal His father is a Baptist minister. Mr Sonna Studied in KSU. Kansas University

[@TheMarymicheal]

@@nickdon ohh ho, good news ,I was thinking he is from some combodia

[@intellectualcatholicism]

That's awesome, man! God bless. - Suan

[@juliannacodde8633]

This is brilliant! Authority is always the key issue and this is such a good historical lesson. It’s amazing how often we as Christian’s have moved forward, ignoring our Jewish roots. If more Christians understood it, I have a feeling more of us would be Catholic!

[@vivekaugustine9583]

If you truly navigate the Jewish roots of Christianity, you will reach the Syriac faith The Syriac faith is the oldest and purest expression of Christianity. You find the roots of Christ in the Syriac churches and its liturgy We speak a dialect of Aramaic, the very same blessed language our Christ spoke, cried and prayed in. What does the Roman church offer you? Nothing but an expression of Christianity that is entirely Latinized and ignores the Semitic roots of Christianity, which is alien to us. Read about Syrian Orthodoxy and maybe attend our evening prayers You will be taken into something mystical and ancient

[@michaelibach9063]

@@vivekaugustine9583 Well the Eucharist, and I’m not seeing any Syriac churches in my area either, so churches as well.

[@vivekaugustine9583]

@@michaelibach9063 The Eucharist? Brother, the consecration and eucharist is an integral of our faith as well If anything, the Christian faith was given to the world, by us And yes, the Syriac churches are a more ethnoreligious group and you find them more in Turkey,Iraq, Syria, Lebanon and Palestine/Israel rather than in the West, however a disaspora exists There are Syriac Catholics They are in communion with Rome and hold their own Qurbana in the diaspora if there is a sizeable population of them in locality. The Maronites for instance are the most notable Syriac Catholics They dont have distinct churches for themselves, they go to Roman Catholic ones and celebrate their own Qurbana in Syriac-Arabic

[@mikethemonsta15]

@@vivekaugustine9583 Christianity is not Aramaic, Christianity is Catholic. It is universal. From the very beginning in Acts there have been Latin and Greek influences.

[@michaelibach9063]

@@vivekaugustine9583 so, you have the faith, but simply didn’t spread it to the four corners of the world.👍

[@jonphinguyen]

Wow I was just listening to a debate with Suan about the papacy! God bless you both!

[@TheMarymicheal]

Suan is new bee

[@michaelibach9063]

@@tony1685 not really, sorry

[@ddzl6209]

@@tony1685 satanic cult believers of sola scriptura a man made tradition invented by a devil possessed man, always tried to destroy the church of saints established by Jesus under the stewardship of Peter for the last five hundred years but ended in total futility because Jesus promised us that no gates of hell will prevail against it.

[@systemdown4027]

5 Jewish proofs of the Magisterium 5:43 - Jesus is the New Moses 10:46 - The promise of restoration 15:22 - Jesus talks about binding and loosing 24:35 - The idea of Succession 34:33 - The relationship between heaven and earth

[@namapalsu2364]

Thank you.

[@muraaaah5602]

Thanks Franklin

[@systemdown4027]

@@muraaaah5602 don't mention it homie!

[@Hamann9631]

Those 5 proofs disprove chaotic protestantism. They don't disprove religions which believe those things and believe it stopped existing at some point. It did. It was then restored in 1830 in western New York State.

[@joshvarges9230]

petition for counsel of trent radio on san andreas airwaves

[@FlexCathedrafromIG]

This was such a great listen in my car and doing errands. A 40 minutes well spent. Well done!!!

[@redacted428]

"Most jews do not like to admit it, but our god is Lucifer and we are his chosen people." - Harold Wallace Rosenthal

[@ddzl6209]

@@redacted428 precisely the satanic cult believers of sola scriptura a man made tradition invented by a devil possessed man think so.

[@Jeem196]

Great to see Suan on this channel, I'm becoming a serious fan of his. Excellent topic guys, incredibly useful knowledge

[@andrewdalton5988]

Protestants who assent to the doctrine of sola scriptura often assume that the default position is a church without a magisterium. They therefore challenge Catholics, asking, "Where does Scripture teach that there is an ecclesial authority that makes decisions in God's name regarding right interpretation of Scripture, moral behavior _(halakha),_ the forgiveness/retention of sins, excommunication, and church discipline (i.e., the magisterium)?" Suan shows that, according to the Bible, such Protestants have it exactly backwards. Since Jesus explicitly validates the enduring authority of the seat of Moses and excoriates law-breakers (Matt 23:2-3), expunging them from the kingdom (13:41), the onus falls on those who deny the magisterium to demonstrate that Jesus abrogated the office of the high court that perpetuated the exercise of binding and loosing power. Of course, he did no such thing. Jesus did not destroy Israel's high court. He fulfilled it. Since the paschal mystery, Christ's emissaries are perpetually enthroned to govern authoritatively the restored _qahal,_ fulfilled Israel (cf. Matt 19:28; 26:64; 28:18-20). In fact, as Suan has pointed out elsewhere, even in the first century, Ignatius of Antioch, the disciple of John, writes, “let all reverence the deacons as an appointment of Jesus Christ, and the bishop as Jesus Christ, who is the Son of the Father, and the presbyters as the sanhedrim of God, and assembly of the apostles. Apart from these, there is no Church” _(Epistle to the Trallians_ 3). In sum, Catholic ecclesiology is much better grounded exegetically and historically than the ecclesiology of sola scripturists.

[@noxvenit]

About the only Protestant bodies who assume this "default" position are congregationalist bodies (eg., Baptists). Our challenge, therefore is not in denying that Scripture teaches the necessity of ecclesial authorities to render decisions in God's name regarding right interpretation of Scripture, moral behavior, the forgiveness/retention of sins, excommunication, and church discipline. We acknowledge the need for magisterial authority; we simply do not acknowledge Rome as *the* magisterium. And either does the Protestant doctrine require rejection of the necessity of courts. My own denominational doctrinal standards (Westminster Confession of Faith) acknowledge this necessity (Ch. 31): "For the better government and further edification of the Church, there ought to be such assemblies as are commonly called synods or councils.... It belongeth to synods and councils, ministerially, to determine controversies of faith, and cases of conscience; to set down rules and directions for the better ordering of the public worship of God, and government of his Church; to receive complaints in cases of maladministration, and authoritatively to determine the same: which decrees and determinations, if consonant to the Word of God, are to be received with reverence and submission, not only for their agreement with the Word, but also for the power whereby they are made, as being an ordinance of God, appointed thereunto in his Word." In denying Rome's claim to be *the* magisterium we do not thereby deny the enduring authority of the seat of Moses or the need for and authority of courts, along with their binding and loosing power. And while it is true that the Sanhedrin sat as a high court, its authority seems not to have included the power to prevent rival schools of Torah interpretation and competing authoritative judgments. It certainly did not anathematize either the school of Hillel or of Shammai, whose differences of opinion made it appear that there were two Torahs (Tosefta Hagigah 2.9; San. 88b). (The Sanhedrin rendered no judgment as to which of the two Torahs is *the* Torah and then anathematized dissenters.) To sum up this point: It is not so much that we deny the authority of the seat of Moses; it is that we deny that every man claiming to occupy that chair has a legitimate claim to do so. (I would point out that there were multiple occupants of the chair of Moses, not a single, monarchical occupant. "They [ie., the Pharisees (pl)]sit in the seat of Moses.") Suan's argument is elegant, even creative (in the best sense). It successfully demonstrates that anyone who denies the need for, and authority of, a teaching magisterium does so in error. What it does not do is demonstrate that the Roman magisterium is *the* magisterium. That said, I can come very close to telling Suan, "Almost thou persuadest me."

[@Dannyboy0202]

@@noxvenit so if the Catholic Church traces its lineage back to the apostolic succession what's your church where does your church trace its lineage back to for its authority or does it simply claim that authority for itself?

[@noxvenit]

@@Dannyboy0202 Let's say for purposes of argument this is a really great problem. My reply would be it doesn't matter: If someone who sits in the chair abuses his authority his claim to some succession ought to fall on deaf ears. In that case the occupants of the chair are no different than your caricature of Protestants: they are simply claiming that authority for themselves. I mean, just how bothered should we be, considering that what sparked the Protestant revolt was a crooked Pope's over-reaction to being caught in a fund-raising scheme (with the Arch-bishop of Mainz) by an Augustinian monk who had no idea what he stumbled upon and had no thought of "rebellion" when he did so? Have you ever asked yourself why it was the 95 theses that got the Pope to wet himself, rather than the 97 theses, which Luther posted about a month earlier? That said, given that the first generation of reformers were ordained, and in turn ordained others, apostolic succession isn't the nuclear bomb argument you think it is.

[@ThrashTillDeth85]

@@noxvenit The flaw of that is not even Baptists agree with each other, there's how many different congregations and conventions of Baptists again, all that do not answer to each other and view themselves as the ultimate authority. And thats assuming a Baptist church is even part of one of these congregations to begin with, because not all Baptists are, in fact many aren't. And thats just talking about Baptists, thats not counting the other thousands of versions of Protestants that all view themselves as right, and the others as false, or not entirely accurate like them. Of course all this messiness is avoided by recognizing that Rome is the magisterium as that is where the church Jesus founded upon Peter ended up as Peter is the rock

[@noxvenit]

@@ThrashTillDeth85 No that isn't a flaw, as you and I both know there is diversity of thought in the RCC, so much so that the Pope has been reduced almost to a symbol -- symbol of Catholic unity. Neither do they view themselves as the ultimate authority; you exaggerate the circumstances. You also exaggerate the problem of the number of Protestant denominations, as well as the disagreements between them. Many, if not most denominations developed not as much over doctrinal differences as geographic origins. The doctrinal differences aren't as stark as you make out: Baptists and Presbyterians accept the Westminster Standards, differing over form of government, and the nature of the sacraments. Our differences do not prevent us from friendly ribbing: Baptists often refer to us as wet Baptists (we baptize our children) and we refer to them as dry Presbyterians. And, no, this messiness isn't avoided by recognizing Rome's claims. The messiness isn't avoided; it is over-looked. Your magisterium has difficulty reconciling V2 with Trent, though they do try hard, especially Bishop Barron. And you now have a Pope who borders on apostasy. About the only thing your magisterium has going for it is it's dubious claim to succession, which isn't keeping this Pope in line. You have bishops actually discussing the possibility of deposing him. (And let's not, for the sake of time, even discuss the political wheeling-and-dealing which goes into the election of Popes.) No, my friend, you have as many problem within your walls as Protestants have outside.

[@GaryM260]

I really appreciate Suan's research and i would love to hear much more of his findings on the Jewish relationship of the Catholic church. I think what i have heard from him is spot on!

[@rodrigofernandes5242]

It is great to have Suan Sonna as a catholic apologist. I learn so much from him, stuff that almost nobody else is talking about it.

[@SaintCharbelMiracleworker]

Paraphrased From DeusImperator: "From conception the Church was an OFFICIAL sect within Judaism. When you read Acts 1 and if you are familiar with Halakhah Law you will immediately notice that the Church is a legal entity WITHIN Judaism. There are 3 requirements which are met. Firstly, notice that there are 120 members in this synagogue. Why is this important? It is the exact number of persons in the Halakhah regulations to form a full fledged synagogue. Secondly next according to Halakhah regulations there must be a "beit din" (Hebrew court) formed. We see that there is a beit din and it draws lots and Matthias a disciple is chosen to take over Judas bishopric (episkopen). The first example of Apostolic Succession. So two of the three requirements are met. The third requirement is that there must be a NASI (prince/temporal) and an AB (father/spiritual) appointed. Curiously Peter is filling both these positions in this beit din. Why? In 190 BC the Kohan Gadol (high priest office) fell into apostasy and beit din gadol cast a vote of no confidence splitting the two offices of the kohan gadol into the "nasi" and the "ab" within the Beit Din Gadol. Fast forward to Matt16, in this new Beit Din Gadol (70 disciples) Christ has placed His confidence in Peter (the first AB/father/pope meaning papa) by presenting him the Keys to the temple and bringing the two offices back together the way it originally was. The pope has both temporal and spiritual powers. Peter is the NASI prince of the apostles and the AB/pope (Pope meaning papa - meaning father) as you see even today the pope as Peters documented unbroken apostolic successor is both ‘nasi’ and the ‘ab’ in Catholicism. Christ appointed Peter as His steward with the keys as per Isaiah 22 vs 19-24 and Matt16. Peter is First amongst equals. In the Davidic kingdoms there was always an al-bayith (steward), that is Peters role. Christ also renames Peter (the only Apostle renamed) as Abraham and Jacob were renamed by God in preparation for their specific role in salvation history. Peter's successors (Popes) are first amongst equals ie bishops who make up the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. First book of Kings lists all the Kings and it always has the royal steward/vizier listed next to the King as well because in the absence of the King he was in charge of the Kingdom. The steward is given the sash/robes/keys to the temple because the role is also a priestly role. The steward would wear the keys around his neck so the citizens of the davidic kingdoms knew who he was. (Rashi/Jewish sage writes a commentary on the priestly role of the steward/vizier and the Keys are the keys of the temple and government)."

[@erikascheer7059]

Susan Sonna… literally cheered out loud . And the subject matter, Snoopy happy dance

[@redacted428]

"Some call it Marxism, I call it Judaism" - Rabbi Stephen Wise

[@nathanberning7999]

Suan is, as folks these days may say, based.

[@ddzl6209]

The bottom line is Jesus didn't come to change the law of Moses but to fulfill it, obviously He didn't start a new religion but natural continuation of Judaism under the new covenant as new Passover and new exodus, which was prophesied by Isaiah almost thousand years before. The first followers were all Jews and they started this new covenant in their respective synagogues of Jerusalem, Damascus, Rome, Corinth, Antioch, Smyrna, Hippo, Carthage etc. with the basic traditions like tabernacle, alter, menohra, priesthood etc intact. Only the Catholic Church have all these.

[@SaintCharbelMiracleworker]

When Jesus talks about bind/loosing he is also referring to Isaiah 22:20-22. "In that day I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah, and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your sash on him, and will commit your authority to his hand. And he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David. He shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open."

[@EstudioVoitheia]

What is interesting, maybe you have not noticed, is that also is evidence against an atheist idea that Jesus were expecting a final judgment in the time of the apostles.

[@bernadete4704]

Yes! Great videos in your channel!

[@ntmn8444]

This video is the video I needed to watch. I studied Judaism for 10 years, and I saw how it clearly influenced early Christianity. I did not understand or see the connection to Catholicism as we know it today, but that has changed. I’ve come full circle and have seen these Jewish proofs in Catholicism. Good job, Suan Sonna! I absolutely recommend Catholics to learn more about Judaism.

[@davidfabien7220]

Excellent. The Holy Spirit spoke to the leaders of the church in Antioch and asked them to set aside Barnabas and Paul for the work he had for them to do.

[@mulipolatuuumataafatiufeaa4964]

Amazing talk brother. This is as clear as light on a mind and heart full of doubts of the Catholic Church.

[@JaySeamus]

My man Suan Sonna

[@AA-hy5wg]

Trent and Suan, any books to recommend on this topic of papacy and magisterium?

[@phoult37]

Pope Peter - Defending the Church's Most Distinctive Doctrine by Joe Heschmeyer. He was on several Catholic YT channels too.

[@michaelt5030]

Steve Ray's "Upon This Rock" is darn-near encyclopedic on the topic of the papacy.

[@akak8299]

Jesus and the jewish Roots of Papacy - Brant Pitre

[@JustCallMeAlex]

This is honestly what is driving me to be Catholic. I find it difficult to believe that the church would not have an authority structure like the Catholic one. I’ve got a lot of questions I need answered yet before I can truly say that I’m going to become Catholic, but I haven’t found anything yet that I can flat out say is untrue.

[@EstudioVoitheia]

Great!

[@kimfleury]

Very interesting study.

[@deusimperator]

Have been saying this for years

[@cheryl0327]

This was very interesting.

[@andoylanggid]

Suan, God bless you.

[@TheMarymicheal]

Please ignore a guy called @tony.

[@servantofjesuschrist8606]

Are you from India?

[@masterchief8179]

This guy Tony is a Seventh Day Adventist that goes on literally every Catholic channel to proselytize. When I said once his sect is - in the most strict sense - a cult founded in 19th century in Michigan (United States) by a prophetess named Ellen White, he says Paul was said to belong to a sect by the Jews of his times, so you get his plays 😄.

[@TheMarymicheal]

@@servantofjesuschrist8606 yes I am

[@TheMarymicheal]

@@masterchief8179 oh man, i couldn't contain that conversation. He will come to this as well.

[@TheMarymicheal]

@@servantofjesuschrist8606 I saw you are recent convert to Christianity, Good news my friend.

[@Howsoonisnow2009]

So good!

[@deusimperator]

The word Ecclesia does not mean just a group of believes, rather ecclesia as used by Jews and Greeks meant a legislative body which was the government . G-d was going to restored the government of Judah.

[@deusimperator]

@YAJUN YUAN In one sense, yes, But what does ecclesia mean... what did it mean when it was used by Hellenic Jews??? it meant a government, more specifically a body of legislators ... this was the polity which existed in the Attic government (sorry I cannot paste the link) but it is on Wikimedia commons file is named Constitution-of-the-Athenians-in-the-4th-century-BC.png that is the body of legislatures yes this has a meaning within a synagogue, as you need a quroum of 120 members to found a synagogue. This 120 members has a meaning in Judaism. It was the 120 Anshei Knesset HaGedolah - also known as the Great Synagogue. This was the legislative body which existed from 450 BC - 200 BC in Judah. Now go and read Acts 1:15 and this will make sense.

[@tuav]

Hey Trent! I would like to see how you would tackle antisemitism, especially when talking to individuals that try to justify “Jewish global conspiracies” and they try to use the book of Acts and most of the New Testament to justify their antisemitism or anti-Judaism. God bless!

[@mugsofmirth8101]

"antisemite" is no different from the word "antivaxxer" or "homophobe" or "transphobe" Just a politically correct buzzword which lends itself to ad hominem attacks and smear campaigns. Oh and you conveniently failed to mention Revelation 2:9 and 3:9 for obvious reasons.

[@Junnelayos]

ありがとうございました

[@shangval7325]

I'd like to see Mr Trent have a discussion with Sam from @Shamounian

[@Littlemermaid17]

Very good topic ✝️

[@mungzou5878]

Im from Suan's native place. can he make videos in his native language because quite many are not listening/ watching English

[@akaMakdaddy]

In this video the topic of protestants being dismissive of the old testament was mentioned. I've had this experience myself. When this happens I ask how come they're not doing the bible study taught by the Savior? The walk to Emmaus in Luke as an introduction to the significance of typology is a strong endorsement for the old testament.

[@forsythia33]

That's so interesting!

[@ashtree5957]

I'm sorry if there was something I missed, I was getting distracted reading about Jewish leadership while watching this video. After Moses, was there ever a single leader? It seems like the leadership was shared, wasn't it? Rather than there being a "pope" type that passes the baton. I have read the word translated to seat from the Greek word "kathedra" can actually be translated as "bench." Any clarification would be very much appreciated. I grew up in a Church of Christ but I want to be a Catholic and I am just trying to get any concerns out of my way before I truly jump in.

[@lonelyberg1808]

It did the same to me before, There are even some words that I can't use anymore. It must be a bug or something, your comments may be identified as spam or something. Maybe the problem will go away with time.

[@ashtree5957]

@@lonelyberg1808 I just edited my comment with mostly what I was originally trying to post and it stayed. Do you see it as edited now?

[@lonelyberg1808]

@@ashtree5957 yeah 😁

[@ashtree5957]

@@lonelyberg1808 Cool, thanks. 😊 Maybe we both said too many key words and got flagged for life lol.

[@lonelyberg1808]

@@ashtree5957 yeah lol

[@DanielFernandez-jv7jx]

I was told that the Eastern Orthodox Church continues to require three bishops to ordain a new bishop. Has the RC church abandoned this practice?

[@MrCheesywaffles]

Facinating.

[@deusimperator]

The Jewish source writings is the best defense of the authenticity of the Catholic faith.

[@MrCheesywaffles]

@@deusimperator It's an important reference to help understand the scriptures and the authors, including the New Testament.

[@scurvydog20]

It occurs to me if paul was inducted the chain isn't broken it continues in the catholic church

[@YardenJZ]

About the date of the Babylonian Talmud, it is important to remember that the Sanhedrin existed up to the fifth century. As far as Sanhedrical procedures and the authority is concerned, I would view the Babylonian Talmud as a contemporary source.

[@redacted428]

To quote the jewish Babylonian Talmud "What a jew steals from a Gentile he may keep" - Sanhedrin 57a

[@YardenJZ]

Your point?

[@dwightschrute900]

​@@redacted428 To quote the {REDACTED} Babylonian "What a[REDACTED]steals from a poor sinner, Let him be Anthenema" - [Everyone]

[@lonelyberg1808]

@@dwightschrute900No. Please, please don't say that. Don't put some dirt in his eyes

[@dwightschrute900]

@@lonelyberg1808 He wants forgiveness? Get Religion

[@jurajjuricic5286]

There is a video on a channel Renegade Cut called "We Should Talk About the Devil". Would love to see your take on it. @The Counsel of Trent

[@arkofthecovenant6235]

This just become one of my favorite episodes of your channel.🕯👍🏼🕯I would not be surprised if anti-semites are crawling around this episode/chanel .🔦

[@xstatic-ow5mz]

Christianity is inherently antisemitic. Especially Catholics. Hilter was Catholic.

[@xstatic-ow5mz]

Monk Coffee is an antisemitic Nazi bigot

[@arkofthecovenant6235]

Lol...keep trying

[@deusimperator]

Yikes the anti-semites are indeed buzzing like crazed mosquitoes

[@LM-ix7pk]

@@xstatic-ow5mz Hitler was catholic yet relentlessly suppressed the Church in Germany and Poland?

[@mapaz555]

We can’t truly understand the new testament without the lens of the old testament. Using Jewish eyes and traditions, history, to interpret it. Everything just goes above our heads like children trying to read an advanced book without knowing the double meaning, the references, the underlying themes, without the knowledge of lived experience, without using a dictionary to understand the big words.

[@LambsServant]

What book, of Edersheim, is Suan quoting from ? The links that he is making are interesting.

[@Kitiwake]

In Galatians 2: 7 and 8 Paul describes the ministry of Peter as apostle to the circumcised ( the Jews). Why did Peter then go to Rome while the Jews were mostly based in Jerusalem? Asking for a friend

[@nosuchthing8]

I thought I misread the title ...

[@Faith_Of_The_First_Order]

Go find a scroll in the tabernacle and read it…. That’s good stuff haha.

[@rensiusmnainggolan5210]

Protestant is a new kids in the block about the Church’s history...

[@jperez7893]

Nehemia Gordon deciphered this confused language of the greek. He read from the manuscripts thus: “do whatever he (moses) tells you (the torsh) but do not follow their taknanot (rabbinic traditions). “ refer to Nehemia Gordon for his full exposition. Nehemia gordon is an ancient Hebrew manuscripts Bible researcher and academic

[@markoh6641]

I agree that it would be very beneficial, if Suan (aka Intellectual Conservatism) would look into Nehemia's work. Nevertheless, as I see it, Nehemia bases most of his arguments on Shem Tov's Hebrew Matthew. There seems to be some dispute among researchers, how old that text actually is. However, most of the mainstream scholars don't seem to believe that it actually dates back to a simlar date as the Greek mauscripts.

[@jperez7893]

@@markoh6641 shem tov by itself should not be relied upon completely. But we can see that that this manuscript lineage has preserved a cleaner transcription of certain particular passages that are otherwise mangled or hard to understand from the traditional greek translations. This is just a normal method of textual criticism for reconstructing the original especially certain passages when new manuscripts become available. Just like when the dead sea scrolls enabled us to reconstruct some passages in the Hebrew that were otherwise confusing coming from the masoretic text.

[@markoh6641]

@@jperez7893 Seems like a valid point. Just more motivation for Suan to look into that. 🙂 I also think that if the text in Shem Tov's Hebrew Matthew actually did represent the more authentic text/translation, that would deal quite a blow to the Catholic argument.

[@jperez7893]

@@markoh6641 there are obvious tampering of the text in shem tov as can be deduced from the existing manuscripts while also portions of of shem tov that appears to have been neglected (this passage for example in particular). Since the neglected passages have survived unmolested because it seems uninteresting, this gives a window into the original. Another passage of historical importance that seems lost or different from the greek is the circumstances of how the veil of the temple got torn. In one of the hebrew manuscripts, the event that took place was because of an earthquake. The lintel of the temple cracked and broke and fell because of the earthquake. The breaking in two pieces caused the veil to also be torn from top to bottom; which makes a lot more sense as to how it happened. I think this was also recorded in the mishna. The lintel and the hall of hewn stones (hall of the sanhedrin) remained unrepaired even until the destruction of the temple in ad 70. These textual variants give a better understanding and better practical explanation than the canonical greek narrative sometimes. A lot of the passages of shem tov however seems to have incurred suffered tampering to a more rabbinic bias as the centuries carried on. The hope is to find a shem tov ancestor hebrew manuscript original that date to the late roman antiquity.

[@markoh6641]

@@jperez7893 Thanks a lot for these clarifications; I did not know that! Let's hope that Suan picks it up ;-) God bless!

[@mememe1468]

When it comes to Semikhah we know St. Paul was ordained by St. Gamaliel. Who was Jesus ordained by? I'd imagine He would've kept up the tradition of mosaic succession . Is it then possible for Catholics, at least in theory, to trace their bishops succession to Moses ? Also, is it possible the two lineages given in Matthew and Luke are not just of righteous men but legitimate religious authorities?

[@renjithjoseph7135]

In what way is Gamaliel a saint and what sort of ordination do you believe he gave St Paul? Edit: tradition says Gamaliel converted; first part answered lol

[@mememe1468]

@@renjithjoseph7135 yes, St. Gamaliels feast day is August 3rd. St.Paul attributes much of his understanding of the torah to St. Gamaliel (acts 22:3)

[@namapalsu2364]

Jesus was a priest in the line of Melchisedech.

[@mememe1468]

@@namapalsu2364 Yes, everyone affirms the priesthood of Jesus as from the order of Melchizedek. However, as a First century Rabbi He needed succession from a rabbi before Him. Just like St. Paul, or St. Gamaliel. I'm sure Jesus Himself could've just preached without any of that but it seems much more likely He had succession. Theres too many verses to bring forward to demonstrate this. Im just wondering where He couldve gotten that from.

[@giovannicolpani3345]

​@@mememe1468according to saint Ephrem (hymns against heretics 22), Jesus received the priesthood through imposition of hands from John the Baptist, son of the priest Zaccharia, after His baptism

[@aloyalcatholic5785]

Argument for Quo Primuum versus Sancrosanctum Concillium - also an argument for following tradition over all over more modernist approaches : kzbin.info/www/bejne/l4PadXpvlrhppKs - If prior Popes and Saints declared certain liturgy or views on faith and morals that were "more strict", with this Jewish Proof Magisterium, the traditional catholic approach should be preferred.

[@Francisco_Figue]

The Council of Florence teaches "the Vicar of Christ [the Pope] is superior in authority and status even to Moses."

[@jackdaw6359]

The New Covenant is superior to the Old.

[@namapalsu2364]

@@jackdaw6359 Way superior.

[@jackdaw6359]

@@namapalsu2364 amen

[@deusimperator]

@@jackdaw6359 The new covenant is not opposed to the old... rather it is all one covenant in reality. The faith received by Israel in the covenant WAS the Catholic Faith which was practiced as the Jewish religion consonant with the covenantal revelation

[@jackdaw6359]

@@deusimperator I would disagree that it is One Covenant as Our Lord used the Term, the New and Eternal Covenant. But we are Israel. I agree. Maybe a Restored Covenant. Renewed?. I'll stick to the Words of Our Lord. (And I didn't imply they were opposed)

[@pklemets]

My studies have revealed much more comprehensive hermeneutic interpretation of scripture text by four dimensions. The sources used are mostly 600 CE and forward. The binding and loosing teaching of the tannaim period is quite different from the information presented in here in this vlog. The Jewish system of Jesus' day operated through a two opinion system,, hardly anything Catholic. One from teachers called Tanna and another view from amoraim mean they were interpreters. The Magisterium is quite different by catechetical definition and in my opinion decree. The Magisterium has one view and no opposition can stand. This is not Jewish and may be New Testament biblical but not Jewish.

[@fernandosanchezsarmiento7704]

Trent, are you using the camera?

[@frederickanderson1860]

The Hebrew Matthew says different regards the seat of Moses. Jesus in john chapter 8 Jesus referred to those who were god's John chapter 10: 25-25. Chapter 8 ,jesus refered to 2- 3 witnesses regards his ministry. Not by a magisterium. 1john chapter 5: 7- 9. The 3 witnesses in heaven & on earth.

[@HaleStorm49]

@27:22 Pretty stunning comparison to make here. The Jews no longer had legitimate succession despite their lineage charts and claims. Neither Jesus Christ or John the Baptist's priesthoods we're sourced through them and it's the primary reason those two were rejected by the majority of Jews. Enough takeaways here for an entire podcast episode.

[@caritamundo9316]

Can you invite Jordan B. Peterson on your show? Thanks. :)

[@scottmaag7650]

Trent Horn looks tired 😫.

[@krishyyfan5153]

SSPX left the Group.....Dr. Taylor Marshall left the group....

[@deusimperator]

Which group did they leave?

[@mnmmnm925]

3:58

[@julzee111]

Such blatant lies!!

[@akak8299]

Its a bit shameful that in all of Asia, Philippines has the highest Catholic population, yet cant produce a single Catholic theologian that would make it international like Suan Sonna.

[@TheMarymicheal]

I am in several Phillipines based Facebook pages, there are some apologist I found there

[@nonoyyonon8228]

Because our church officials are more into politics and money. Catechism is very poor thats why most of the young catholics join christian sect.

[@akak8299]

@@nonoyyonon8228 I dont object the Church officials meddling into politics. No.1 its the duty of the Church to meddle on issues that involves morality and interferes with Church teaching. Only those agreeable to corrupt practices of officials will hate the Church for doing that. No.2 there are far more denominations (Quiboloy, INC,) that are far more political than the Catholic Church No.3 Pope himself instructs the Church to meddle into politics when necessary to correct the wrong. I would say its how the Catholic Church in the Philippines educate and inspire their members. In fact, most Catholic universities in the Philippines have too many aggressive evangelicals in them. SO instead of pulling in Catholics into the Catholic faith, when they enter Catholic universities, many become Pastors and evangelicals.

[@seanfernandolopez9139]

Dude! That's exactly what I was telling my grandma just a few days ago (we're Filipinos). She is s fervent Catholic who actively serves the church, who used to be a Catecist in her youth, but she doesn't even know what apologists are.

[@seanfernandolopez9139]

@@nonoyyonon8228 Sadly this is true. I am friends with a lot of protestants who was born Catholic. Not only that, but one of the problem with us Filipinos is that we are more concerned with Following traditions without understanding why, that's why in the face of a spiritual and intellectual attack, we fall away easily.

[@rolandovelasquez135]

We are not Jews

[@kwphillyzkp2]

how the hell did this guy produce this sorcery? Is this a guide to produce a new version of mormonism from christianity. This certainly requires a new level of interpolation that will create a new religion.

[@zwijac]

👍 you should let everyone know, one point in the video that was wrong. And let them know why, that way you'll actually have a cause to promote and maybe someone will follow you.

[@donhaddix3770]

Mosaic Law does not apply.

[@frederickanderson1860]

Jesus said call no man rabbi or Father on earth. One is your Father, and one is your teacher. He who denies both is the anti Christ.

[@johnathainbanks5455]

Jesus said "be ye not called rabbi," but yet John the Baptist was called rabbi in John 3, and the Lord Jesus Christ did not rebuke that. Why? Because the context is the use of unworthy titles. People who are worth of the titles of Rabbi and Father, can be called such.

[@frederickanderson1860]

@@johnathainbanks5455 so was Jesus just another rabbi' then he was 30 yrs old ,a rabbi' at that age is considered to be one with his master or teacher. The Pharisees challenged jesus, saying we have Abraham as our father. Jesus said before Abraham was born I AM. Isaiah chapter 63 especially verse 16. Who is Israel's true Father Abraham or Jacob/ Israel. No they are not our saviours.

[@matthewvelazquez2013]

Quit using the word 'normative.' Normative is related to the pseudo-intellectual garbage word, 'heteronormative.' People who use the word normative give themselves away as ones who desire contemporary human approval. *Instead of using the word normative, use the Taboo Word, 'CONVENTIONAL.'* Oooooooooooo.

[@frederickanderson1860]

Goes against the other councils regards the jews . The 70 that Moses had as judge's were not about the magisterium. It was about not the law's of moses.plus the oral laws. The 70 that followed jesus left him. Human speculations regards the oneness theology. Consider the wheat and Tares, both are within the church. The Roman church uprooted the tares by burning heretics and the 30 yrs war, between church and states.authority. who is saved then . Isaiah 40v13. You wrong it 2as the oral law rabbinical school,who created the lie like your church they received the oral law from Moses.the Talmud was the result of the oral laws. You wrong.

[@Justas399]

Interesting that there is no office of a papacy in the NT church. No mention of bishops of Rome having authority over the church.

[@renjithjoseph7135]

Who compiled the NT documents? For what purpose were they compiled?

[@delbert372]

Many things were not yet fully realized or crystallized in the embryonic stage of the church reflected in the New Testament documents.

[@CPATuttle]

Yes there is. That’s why you need Jesus’s church he started to point that out for you to understand.

[@Justas399]

@@CPATuttle where is the office of the papacy mentioned in the New Testament?

[@CPATuttle]

@@Justas399 Matthew 16:18-19 alone is sufficient.

[@nickhanley5407]

So God found it fit to leave the Israelites a written record of exactly what the law was, who the priesthood was, where and how to worship, down to the smallest detail. Then all he gave us to show Rome is the new authority and the pope is in charge is a few verses in the scriptures that can easily be shown to mean something totally different? Kind of funny to me that you think God would make it so clear for them but leave us practically nothing.

[@TheMarymicheal]

@YAJUN YUAN then what Christianity should end up with? Bible alone notion??

[@EpoRose1]

Why would Jesus have to leave written instructions to 12 Jewish apostles when they most likely would have already been able to make the connections from what was already written to the Israelites?

[@nickhanley5407]

@@EpoRose1 the same could be said about the Israelites (or Torah) in reference to the Noetic covenant but yet God did give them very specific instructions and made anull the previous covenant. The fact that the disciples wrote 27 “books” but didn’t include anything about what Rome claims, should at least make you question the validity of romes claims… don’t you think if they were giving instructions to Christian’s in writing, they would have had the foresight to leave some instructions for us?

[@Christian_Maoist.]

So the proofs are to take the Hebrew Bible and reinterpret it until you're able to squeeze in whatever you want into it. Yeah, not convinced, I'll stay Orthodox.

[@mirandasilergrace]

If you want to stay orthodox avoid reading the church fathers lol. I used too have you're attitude when I was Russian orthodox before I became catholic.

[@phoult37]

You clearly didn't watch the video since they reference the NT several times.

[@augustvonmacksen2526]

No that’s not what they’re saying. They’re giving logical continuity to the before (old covenant under mosaic law legally, politically, and religiously) and after (new covenant).

[@jackdaw6359]

Just glad you aren't a femboy.

[@swordofarchangelmichael3848]

@@mirandasilergrace ❤

[@frederickanderson1860]

Nonsense just justifying old testament into new testament. You can't put new wine into old bottle's.