A Catholic, Protestant, Atheist and Agnostic Discuss the Problem of Evil

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-------------------------VIDEO NOTES-------------------------
The problem of evil is one of the most difficult challenges facing a theist who wishes to defend the existence of a good god. In this episode of the Cosmic Skeptic Podcast, Alex is joined by Joe Schmid, an agnostic, Cameron Bertuzzi, a protestant, and Trent Horn, a catholic, to discuss the problem in detail, and analyse various responses to it.
-------------------------------LINKS--------------------------------
Cameron Bertuzzi: / capturingchristianity
Trent Horn: / thecounseloftrent
Joe Schmid: / majestyofreason
Cameron’s discussion with Philip Goff: • Are Atheists in Denial...
My debate with Trent on God's existence: • DEBATE: God's Existenc...
My video on Stephen Law's evil god challenge: • Could God Be Evil?
Trent's debate with Matt Dillahunty on the Resurrection: • Is belief in the Resur...
Better Never To Have Been, by David Benatar: amzn.to/3NFsPOa
-------------------------TIMESTAMPS--------------------------
0:00 Intro
1:16 Is God's Power Limited?
16:15 Evidential vs Logical Problem of Evil
25:53 The Problem of Animal Suffering
42:23 Skeptical Theism
50:22 Does God Have to be Good?
56:23 Higher Order Goods and The Experience Machine
1:04:20 Comparing Theodicies with Antinatalism
1:10:38 Closing Thoughts
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[@MrTheclevercat]

People who think evil is there to teach us lessons have been incredibly lucky to experience so little evil that they think its a game.

[@areyoujelton]

This.

[@henryp.]

Yep so often it is the case. And following the reasoning, If either god born / automatically brought into existence or always existed with all knowledge, did he have to 'learn' anything or god just have ability of omniscience from the start? It seems god didn't earn anything, and just inherited his powers and knowledge, the idea that God created evil to teach us lessons seems so narcissistic and privileged of god, just like the idea of the forbidden fruit from tree of knowledge, god created us in a purposeful state of ignorance and then punished us for our own ignorance of seeking knowledge from the tree. And also isn't the bible supposed to be a lesson if so then why can't he also just communicate directly instead of creating evil as a lesson? And if we're made in the image of God why not just be born with the knowledge, or be like jesus instead of some lesson that causes untold amounts of suffering? And what if humans replicated and imitated gods actions in a simulated computer world? How would those beings view us? As immoral monsters, surely. It's playing god perhaps do as I say, not as I do? The idea of evil makes no sense, better a universe not exist then have evil and suffering. I could ask you or them, would you accept having a lifetime of torture and misery imposed upon you, against your will, if it means a billion others will also come / be brought into existence get to experience the best orgasm and pleasures? Or choose not to endure that misery and therefore wouldn't bring that universe into existence? Even 1 victim is a tragedy, that's their whole life, their whole existence, even if everyone else was happy doesn't change that. It's better if everyone was neutral balanced than polar opposite peaks of suffering and wellbeing. Remember no one chose to be here it's imposed on us. I'm under no moral obligation to exist and endure suffering if it would bring into existence countless humans to experience bliss and orgasms or whatever happiness. That state of suffering is my whole reality.

[@wattlebough]

Suggesting people who draw lessons from evil have experienced very little evil in their personal lives could be an assumption my friend. No doubt many people, not just religious people, live in a sheltered middle class and upper-middle class bubble, but many of the world’s religious people including christians live in the third world where suffering, disease, war and extreme crime are a part of daily life.

[@pansepot1490]

@@wattlebough I strongly doubt poor people who live in suffering think of evil as a lesson. They just hope for a reward in the afterlife. That’s what makes Christianity so appealing and so difficult to “debunk”. If you’re rich and happy it’s because god approves of you, if you suffer don’t worry, you’ll get compensation in heaven. Perhaps it’s just me but the problem of evil is only talked about by apologists. Never heard average believers worry or even know about it.

[@wattlebough]

@@pansepot1490 Good points. Interestingly there are many verses in the Book of Ecclesiastes that talk about the wicked prospering and having lives of ease while the righteous groan and suffer. There are similar verses in the Book of Psalms including many attributed to King David of the Tribe of Judah. Even Jesus, also of the Tribe of Judah, promises that in this life you will have suffering. He then goes on to say “…but take heart. I have overcome the world…” You’re basically correct regarding hope of reward. I wonder that this existence isn’t comparable to some kind of “matrix” construct where nothing, including human suffering, is actually real but like some kind of program, and reality comes when we die. It’s a mystery only those billions of dead who continue to go before us know the answer to. Every single one of the 8 billion people alive today will be dead 100 years from today and the lucky few who aren’t, around 20 years after that.

[@EljinRIP]

"Sometimes I've seen animals in videos being ripped apart and they look so peaceful" Yea and I've seen cartel videos of drug dealers chain sawing each others legs off and they "look so peaceful", it's called SHOCK. It occurs during trauma and blood loss.

[@johnbrzykcy3076]

You make a valid point. Thanks.

[@lucioh1575]

Was gonna say the same thing.

[@HopDances]

Thank you! lol I was shocked he thought that was a good take.

[@Jerome616]

So would you say going into shock is a good or bad aspect of creation? I think that was his point. That suffering is not all as bad as we make it it to be, and perhaps there are systems in place that reduce animal suffering already.

[@EljinRIP]

@@Jerome616 "perhaps" no need for a mechanism in the first place would be better. Shock is not necessarily peaceful or neutral either, it's just a consequence of trauma to the body.

[@uniquearahill6819]

I rather have discussions like this than debates. This is so good.

[@joeismellyounggirlsbiden]

👍

[@Terrestrial_Biological_Entity]

True.

[@wokeLina]

This was disgusting, and speaks to how depraved the atheist community still is.

[@joannware6228]

"The correct conclusion about the Bible is that it is the only true and accurate history of the Universe, whether you accept it, or not. The necessary component is faith to embrace spiritual matters, which are by divine ordination, beyond human ability to fully fathom… (8) For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. (9) For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:8-9 (KJV) " Since the laws of physics are consistent throughout the entire spectrum of the Lord’s created majesty, the Lord Jesus Christ remains in control of every molecule in the approximate two hundred billion galaxies we know of and all other matter outside mankind’s field of discovery. Conversely, while mankind may recall historic events, and have desires for the future, we actually have very limited control over the fulfillment of those plans, and mankind’s solitary creation is the computer virus! The only time you have any measure of control over is this very moment, so what are you doing with it? You must question the sanity of any who would presume to equate the Lord’s Sovereignty with our stunted capabilities!" Ken Axelson "Thought for the Day"

[@brightroarttttbbbb]

Atheism has led people to a great dead end and emptiness, however, human beings are suitable to believe in God due to their existence, they seek help from a person who has infinite power, and people do not want to perish by nature, there is a desire to exist forever, most of the people believe in God, we will be resurrected on the Day of Judgment after death. And we will be held accountable. Those who do good will receive eternal paradise as a reward for their good deeds. Unbelievers cannot enter paradise. Is it better to receive great blessings in paradise forever or to burn in hell over and over again? The regret of the disbeliever is of no use. The last religion, Islam, tells us that Allah exists and is one. Prayer, fasting and It commands helping the poor and doing good to one's parents and relatives. It prohibits alcohol, gambling, adultery, slander, lying, etc.❤❤

[@aaronparry2636]

I'm seeing a lot of comments on the quality of various arguments, but I just want to make sure we acknowledge how great it is to have 4 people with very different views on the topic discussing it in both a direct and respectful manner. Kudos to all involved on keeping everything friendly, despite how heated this topic can get (even just in the comments on this video).

[@RolaiEckolo]

Yo based af, always appreciate the sharing of diverse viewpoints, which is where the real strength of diversity lies.

[@easyaccessjeans]

Pluralism FTW!!!

[@TheMargarita1948]

@@easyaccessjeansWhat means “FTW”?

[@EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE3EEEEEEEEEE]

@@TheMargarita1948 for the win

[@brightroarttttbbbb]

Atheism has led people to a great dead end and emptiness, however, human beings are suitable to believe in God due to their existence, they seek help from a person who has infinite power, and people do not want to perish by nature, there is a desire to exist forever, most of the people believe in God, we will be resurrected on the Day of Judgment after death. And we will be held accountable. Those who do good will receive eternal paradise as a reward for their good deeds. Unbelievers cannot enter paradise. Is it better to receive great blessings in paradise forever or to burn in hell over and over again? The regret of the disbeliever is of no use. The last religion, Islam, tells us that Allah exists and is one. Prayer, fasting and It commands helping the poor and doing good to one's parents and relatives. It prohibits alcohol, gambling, adultery, slander, lying, etc.❤❤

[@turgidturbitity7415]

A Catholic, Protestant, Atheist and Agnostic walk into a bar. The barman asks, "so what will it be?". The Catholic asks for a glass of red wine, the Protestant asks for a beer, the atheist wants to be rationally minded so sticks to drinking water, and the agnostic cannot make up his mind. So the atheist turns to ask him "so what are you having?", to which the agnostic replies "an existential crisis....."

[@rumraket38]

Does that have Vodka in it?

[@AbdulHannanAbdulMatheen]

Lol good one

[@pdxnikki1]

😂 thanks for sharing. Pretty good!

[@turgidturbitity7415]

Then a Muslim walks in and says, "Sorry, I thought the sign said PBUH"

[@lucidlocomotive2014]

Protestant asks for grape juice would be funnier

[@Lukaaas146]

A Catholic, Protestant, Atheist and Agnostic walk into a bar to discuss the problem of evil. The bartender picks up his shotgun and shoots the the atheist, the agnostic and the catholic. The Protestant (Bertuzzi) replies: 'Thank God things like these happen, now I can show compassion.' Thanks for likes lol. But pls don't hate on Bertuzzi. It was a joke.

[@fabianrydin8913]

Best comment ive seen hahahahha

[@rationalityrules]

Lmfao

[@ForLogicandReason-Mark1]

Atheists would claim "durrr doing thats wrong becuz i don't likez it, durrrr"! "Humans need to live and thrive becuz we want too, durrrr"!!!

[@jazeroliversy673]

@@ForLogicandReason-Mark1 for someone named logic and reason, you seem to be lacking these same qualities

[@ForLogicandReason-Mark1]

@@jazeroliversy673 Oh really, how so, please tell. Make your argument. You can't just make some opiniated claim and expect THAT to prove you right. What have I said that's objectively inaccurate or incorrect??? I believe that I can logically debunk any mainstream atheist's argument here.

[@TonyKeeh]

This is so awesome. Debates have their place, but I think truth is more readily found when people are just discussing like this. I don't think I've seen content like this, or at the very least, I've only seen it rarely. Please do more of these.

[@hideshiseyes2804]

Alex’s response to the idea that evil exists so that certain goods can exist is great. I’ve often thought the same thing, although haven’t ever articulated it that well. As Benjamin the donkey in Animal Farm puts it: “God gave me a tail to keep away the flies, but I’d sooner have had no tail - and no flies.”

[@ethan46199]

You'd sooner have nothing at all at that rate.

[@laureelohnes4231]

Why is nobody addressing the fact that evil and suffering is all a consequence of our decision to disobey God in the first place. And free will is necessary for us to have a real relationship with him.

[@BlueCoore]

⁠@@laureelohnes4231Interesting take, let me see If I understood correctly, any suffering comes as a consequence of doing bad? So every person deserves what they go through Like cancer, genes mutations, abusive parents, babies getting killed, etc

[@necessaryevil6636]

​​@@BlueCoore The atheist must realize that it may well be the case that God has sufficient reasons to make a world in such a way that it would be suffused with natural and gratuitous evil. In the case of Christianity, such sufferings may be so because only in such a world may people have the courage and strength to draw to Christ and bring about as much people as possible to His kingdom. No atheist can, nor ever will prove that God doesn't have sufficient reasons for allowing the suffering in the world, deserved or undeserved, purposeless or purposeful. This is the intellectual problem of evil. But I think for most people, this is an emotional problem. They just can't accept a god who permits such actions. But if it is true that God has sufficient reasons, then the facts override such emotional inclinations to reject God.

[@BlueCoore]

@@necessaryevil6636 I see, then I wonder how free will would work in such case, I mean no wonder, that’s what everyone wants to know haha, unless they are enjoying themselves enough to not question this chronically

[@Stepbrohelp]

I really did try to like Cameron. I’ve listened to him talk on plenty of subjects, but I just can’t ever seem to agree with him on anything, and can’t even see where he’s coming from. I’m 1 minute in and he already has claimed that he thinks the world is better for having slavery and overcoming it than it would be for not having slavery at all, and that animals are sometimes at peace when they are violently being ripped to shreds. And to think this same guy wants to champion his position as the bastion of morality.

[@hopeintruth5119]

I totally agree. The guy made no sense at all to me or seem that moral.

[@melipie22fablet]

Soooooo with you here.

[@chrism6315]

Yeah after 40 seconds in and I stopped watching, why are they humouring such absolute fucking nonsnse

[@ilcorbellodipianoia8646]

"How do you continue the conversation?" You DON'T because his position makes no sense

[@ghost_of_jah5210]

The clips at the beginning obviously lack context. Such as Trent’s rebuttal of a non perfect God. At least try and hear him out instead of writing him off with some out of context clips.

[@TuckerWilson12]

"You being oppressed all your life and dying horribly and unfairly is worth it because someone might write a play about it later that makes me cry" is a pretty wild way to justify suffering.

[@Keviamaya]

Yeah that's a wild argument, kinda like the guy that said racism is fine cause it's more interesting and gave us MLK.

[@dvforever]

@@Keviamaya All these people are youtube hacks, except Trent Horn. What do you expect from this bunch? They spent an hour talking about animals who lived 100 million years ago and their deep suffering while avoiding the topic of human suffering.

[@glencecil293]

You just described Jesus Christ. The very purpose of religion is to answer the problem of suffering.

[@thesnackbandit]

@@dvforever This is a terribly ignorant take.

[@nomercy4521]

@Donetsk People's Republic What would a god's opinion on our value matter. For instance, if I created artificial intelligence, does it have meaning based on the idea of my opinion that it has value? If I create a matrix like world and am able to give sentience to all the beings in that world, do they get meaning because I say so?

[@itzyourbwoytchybooxuur6475]

How this Cameron guy can espouse these sort of positions with so much confidence is astounding!

[@cheechak481]

Cameron thinks of himself as a classic philosopher....and is on the verge of crossing the Tiber.

[@haronsmith8974]

@@cheechak481 No better home than Rome baby.

[@TechTab00]

It really is astounding. I think the guy, not trying to demean him as I don't think he'll ever read this, is very low functioning, from a cognitive standpoint. The points he makes are so insultingly dumb that it's quite obvious he has not given serious thought to any of them. Either that, or Dunning Kruger is alive and well with this one. It is perplexing to me though and I do spend a fair amount of brain cycles on how someone as 'accomplished' as he believes himself to be, can hold such horrific opinions. I guess you just chalk it up to cognitive dissonance and prioritizing the culture, ritual, etc. over the actual truth. Still, at the bottom of it all, it's disappointing. The contrast between he and someone like Alex though, is so stark, it's a bit embarassing.

[@mamelu711]

@@TechTab00 As a Christian, I strongly agree sadly. I like his KZbin channel since it serves as a platform for discussion but my goodness are his points just so terrible. I prefer other Christian apologists against atheism such as Testify and InspiringPhilosophy

[@oliviadawn9002]

Welcome to Protestantism

[@elainewagnon6690]

This was a great conversation. I like how open you all are to the other's thoughts. I would love more of this.

[@cuthip]

“I’d rather have racism so we can have MLK” is CLEARLY the take of someone who doesn’t personally suffer from racism.

[@Cassim125]

Well to Cameron's credit he does have a black wife but still he sounds stupid saying that

[@myjciskate4]

@@Cassim125 I mean having a black wife doesn't necessarily mean you personally suffer from racism or don't harbor implicit or even explicit racist beliefs yourself. Lol

[@giftenjoyer3664]

@@myjciskate4 Every night i stay awake thinking how i could have been a better ally for my black queen ✊🥺

[@Cassim125]

@@myjciskate4 Lol well i was giving him the benefit of the doubt having black wife and all she must have shared some racist incidents to him but regardless thats just one case brought up. You can use any example cancer vs cancer research, broken leg vs surgery, pain vs painkiller, crime vs brave police etc

[@Jerome616]

That’s not what he said. He’s arguing that a meaningless existence is far worse than one where evil exists.

[@xensonar9652]

So black people getting lynched is just a character building exercise for those who didn't get lynched. They were just props in someone else's story. Seems like Main Character syndrome to me.

[@JD-wu5pf]

"Trust me, a rich, straight, white man. Everyone else suffering is vital to me being able to process what happiness is." What a sociopath, honestly.

[@christopherlin4706]

You understand that the etymology of person is someone that puts on a mask to play a part?

[@xensonar9652]

@@christopherlin4706 Is that a reference to something?

[@christopherlin4706]

@@xensonar9652 no literally. But the as you like it monologue is referenced as well

[@uninspired3583]

@@JD-wu5pf as someone who is most likely somewhere on the sociopath spectrum, I find Cam's take on this disturbing. I may be able to do certain things and experience no emotion about it, but that's a dismissal of suffering I could not cope with.

[@dayhaysuper3639]

In a world where bravery and evil doesn't exist, bravery can be seen as a good thing, but it's more of a reaction in spite of evil. When evil terrorizes all of us every day, I can personally say bravery is the least of my concerns. I don't want a brave child with stage 4 bone cancer. I want a child with no bone cancer without the medal of bravery.

[@Tyler-hk4wo]

That's a great point. I think we generalize these arguments far too much that it makes it incredibly impersonal. When we make these ideas more personal, we realize how implausible some arguments can seem.

[@peytonevans9406]

One of the most edifying discussions on this topic that I’ve heard. Please do more with these guys!

[@markofsaltburn]

There’s nothing more evil than the idea that someone else should suffer without meaning to make my like feel more meaningful.

[@justjoshua5759]

And this is fundamentally where the abrahamic perpspective of god falls apart when in regards to the justification for evil

[@brotherben4357]

Take a step further and look at the animal kingdom. So many animals suffer so we can keep warm, eat, stay healthy, stay clean, commute to work, etc.

[@JD-wu5pf]

@@brotherben4357 Correct. Humans contributed to natural selection because that's how our universe works. Survival of the fittest. We're finally getting to the point where humans can thrive with less and less suffering caused to other animals, and that's indisputably a good thing... It would have been an even better thing to not create a system where suffering is inherent, though.

[@SquirrelsLoveAcorns]

Yes 100% this. Even if I get meaning out of other peoples suffering, it still makes the disproportionate suffering completely and utterly unfair.

[@brotherben4357]

@@JD-wu5pf What is that system, mate?

[@ryanaldous2743]

Cameron saying hundreds of years of slavery and racism is worth it so one dude can be brave enough to stop it just shows how out of touch he is

[@Reignor99]

ya, myopic af

[@mistyminnie5922]

yeah that's an insane take

[@tecategpt1959]

That isn’t what he said lol, just re listen to the video. He’s saying that he agrees MLK and racism is a necessary component in the human experience. More broadly, without the “evil” there wouldn’t be the pleasures of experiencing the good. He bit that bullet on the slavery example to remain consistent, and I see no issue

[@michaelkrailo5725]

If you didn't want to experience all of the facets of evil or witness it or read about it in the annels of history, you could time travel back to the time of the garden of eden and convince eve not to eat the fruit. Then we wouldn't be having this disscussion.

[@ryangolden3243]

@@tecategpt1959if you have to “bite the bullet” to “remain consistent” that means someone found a hole I your position and you were unwilling to admit and accept tht

[@oliveblake8154]

I need more of this. PLEASE PLEASE do a second one! So many great insights!

[@FakingANerve]

This was a good conversation with a fantastic wrap up. Well done, and like many have already said, I hope to see more of this! 🍻

[@reamus9102]

What a delightful conversation! Love the format too, so hopefully you continue this whole aspect of sitting with the guys over a cup/mug and hashing a topic out. Love it, and big thanks to everyone at that table for their contributions!

[@joannware6228]

t's very telling that atheists accuse God of evil, who they believe doesn't exist, while suspiciously overlooking the atheist totalitarian devils Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Putin, Pol Pot, Castro, and Kim Jong-un; who killed countless millions and caused untold of misery and suffering like the world had never seen.

[@RadtasticDude]

It's so refreshing to be able to see a discussion like this be able to take place on the internet. I think that Christians like myself as well as atheists are growing tired of the hostility that has been stirred regarding these topics over the years. Thank you Alex, Cameron, Joe, and Trent for promoting these kinds of conversations and I look forward to more in the future.

[@johnbrzykcy3076]

I agree. And although sometimes the words and phrases go "over my head," I still try to listen carefully. I'm a Christian believer but I don't have all the answers. In fact, the more I learn, the less I know ! Peace

[@stevenhorr]

Agnostic here. And I fully agree. Nice to see civil discourse about such matters.

[@joannware6228]

Do Bitter People Become Atheists Or Does Atheism Cause Bitterness?

[@joannware6228]

t's very telling that atheists accuse God of evil, who they believe doesn't exist, while suspiciously overlooking the atheist totalitarian devils Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Putin, Pol Pot, Castro, and Kim Jong-un; who killed countless millions and caused untold of misery and suffering like the world had never seen.

[@joannware6228]

That the sun will come up tomorrow is a scientific prediction. It is not a certainty. If God decides to stop it, it will stop.

[@kwall1464]

I love hearing conversations like this, thanks!

[@stevenhorr]

Great discussion all around. Alex, you are a gentleman. Thanks.

[@enif_plays]

Cameron has perhaps one of the worst takes on the problem of evil ever.

[@Prophet_Isaiah]

pre-darwinian moment

[@JoshYxVdM]

I agree, it was honestly revolting.

[@fredbmurphy]

Omnibelevilence is not the author of everything. Morality doesn't justify natural suffering and it's inequality.

[@markofsaltburn]

It’s serial-killer logic.

[@noahve]

What was it again, specifically?

[@TomJudson]

These believers always sound to me like battered wives: “He really does it for my own good. So I’ll learn.”

[@merari1614]

Yes

[@areyoujelton]

So on point! “He loves me so much, but if I don’t do what he says he gets real angry and sends me to the burning place forever...”

[@areyoujelton]

“He also loved me so much that he created me knowing I’d be imperfect and then self-sacrificed himself, as his son mind you, to learn how to forgive the creation he made.”

[@MapleBoarder78]

I get the sentiment of your comment from an unbeliever’s perspective. A more charitable analogy would be a parent allowing their children to make their own choices, learn from the consequences, and then grow as an individual.

[@galaxychar]

@@MapleBoarder78 To me that falls apart a little as someone with a child in my house there’s still things you stop them from doing. Don’t drink bleach, don’t go outside at night alone, and I will stop you if you try so you wont get hurt.

[@Miatpi]

What a charitable and open minded discussion! I hope exchanges like these may raise the level of discourse between believers and non believers overall.

[@joannware6228]

Pain, Suffering, & Death: "Abortion in America has contributed to the greatest decline in black population since the first black slaves arrived in the Americas in the 1600s. According to U.S. census data, there were 18,871,831 black American citizens in 1960. Since Roe v. Wade legalized abortion in 1973, abortion has killed an estimated 20 million black babies - more than the entire black population of 1960." by Catherine Davis and Bradley Mattes | February 28, 2020 01:18 PM Washington Examiner

[@MrCmon113]

How long do we need to discuss the obviously unjustifiable? How long do we need to discuss the obviously absurd before condemning evil?

[@leo--4341]

christianity will lose it’s political influence

[@designed84]

Great discussion! I really enjoy when people of different stances can sit together and just work through complex philosophical questions.

[@betterway7543]

Fantastic conversation, thanks to the four of you, greatly appreciated 👍

[@crossjadam]

Really love this format, just sitting round a table with clip mics having a coffee and a thought provoking conversation.

[@crossjadam]

@LM yes, have you?

[@crossjadam]

@LM 3, didn't want to put myself or the people around me at risk.

[@crossjadam]

@LM 😂😂 You mean the lord jesus christ that gave everyone covid in the first place?

[@joannware6228]

t's very telling that atheists accuse God of evil, who they believe doesn't exist, while suspiciously overlooking the atheist totalitarian devils Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Putin, Pol Pot, Castro, and Kim Jong-un; who killed countless millions and caused untold of misery and suffering like the world had never seen.

[@crossjadam]

@@joannware6228 Didn't God create man in his own image? 🤔

[@kennethadams8835]

I love to see you entering into dialogue (dialogos?) With people from other worldviews. This is the way forward for better understanding

[@rationalmuscle]

Thanks guys for the thoughtful discussion.

[@Max-jf5vu]

Could watch something like this for hours! Really great conversion with great participants.

[@Uskov_Oleg]

Today "the problem of evil" in god's existence perspective is very relevant. Today we have a war in Europe. And people praying for victory to a god ... Praying for help to demolish the enemies... And Russian Orthodox church says that "God is on our side"... It's terrible 😔. Especially for people who have relatives on both sides. I'm atheist from Russia - aggressor country...

[@ForLogicandReason-Mark1]

Atheism itself implies no morality, NOR does science. So what's to replace morals since god doesn't exist? Logic and reason? What logic/reason dictate that humans NEED to exist or OUGHT to be respected objectively? That's the philosophical problem that atheists don't care to solve. In fact, you all irrationally think it isn't even a problem, because you're fine with popular thought as long as its whatever YOU want.

[@notsponsored103]

Russia is not the agressor, America is.

[@Uskov_Oleg]

@@notsponsored103 ,invading in to neighboring countrie is a fact of aggression. USA do not invade in Ukraine nor Russia. So in this case I don't understand what do you mean. Statements must be based on facts. But you use empty slogans.

[@notsponsored103]

@@Uskov_OlegRussia is defending itself against NATO aggression. Pro war U.S military and energy industry stake holders have used Ukraine by proxy to bring another endless war into foreign territory and enrich themselves at the cost of human lives on both sides. This bogus and unnecessary war is completely the product of American billionaires seeking control of European assets. Zelensky is a puppet of the western ruling class.

[@Uskov_Oleg]

@@notsponsored103 , sorry, but you repeat exactly what our Russian propaganda conveys to us every day. The conspiracy theories of the "West" against my country do not have reliable facts and are based on conjectures that do not withstand critical analysis.

[@yog-sothoth37]

Loved it! Please do it again in the future.

[@Pedanta]

Loved this, I'd be interested in more discussion type videos

[@garfieldbraithwaite8590]

More of this please, I thoroughly enjoyed this discussion. The absence of ego was very zen

[@joshuapearson9950]

This is wonderful! Hope more of this happens.

[@joannware6228]

Planned Parenthood only has one plan kill the baby.

[@joannware6228]

t's very telling that atheists accuse God of evil, who they believe doesn't exist, while suspiciously overlooking the atheist totalitarian devils Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Putin, Pol Pot, Castro, and Kim Jong-un; who killed countless millions and caused untold of misery and suffering like the world had never seen.

[@chrishollandsworth6700]

Quite useful! Alot of good points covered

[@FuddlyDud]

Just a fantastic conversation!! Great job all, especially Alex and Trent! :)

[@mahmutcankaya3321]

I'm 40 seconds in and I'm already suprised by Cameron's argument. This is gonna be a doozy.

[@Stepbrohelp]

Glad to see I’m not the only one.

[@Lukaaas146]

A Catholic, Protestant, Atheist and Agnostic walk into a bar to discuss the problem of evil. The bartender picks up his shotgun and shoots the the atheist, the agnostic and the catholic. The Protestant (Bertuzzi) replies: 'Thank God things like these happen, now I can show compassion.'

[@jaye5872]

And the dooziest thing about it is that Cameron believes in moral realism which states that humans have a moral obligation to not do evil which includes not being racist/promoting racism/wanting racism to exist, so he's inadvertently contradicting his own moral framework by claiming to want to live in a world in which racism exists just cause it can lead to a "greater good".

[@Prophet_Isaiah]

yup

[@Jeremyramone]

@@Lukaaas146 And all he needs to do is ask the ol holy trinity blokes for forgiveness and voi la, ticket to heaven still valid. It's sadistic poison.

[@TomTomTheLeprechaun]

Seriously this conversation felt like 10 minutes. Keep doing this! I personally prefer this format.

[@joannware6228]

All the questions these gentlemen pose are answered in the Bible & "The Problem of Pain" by C. S. Lewis. However finding the answers wouldn't be as glorious & profitable & would take hard work.

[@jakovcu]

Honestly in my opinion Alex and Trent Horn have put forward 90% of solid ideas in this conversation.

[@joannware6228]

t's very telling that atheists accuse God of evil, who they believe doesn't exist, while suspiciously overlooking the atheist totalitarian devils Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Putin, Pol Pot, Castro, and Kim Jong-un; who killed countless millions and caused untold of misery and suffering like the world had never seen.

[@Benbeebop]

This might be my favorite intro and title to any of your videos

[@bisratezra8247]

Thanks for this, guys! How I wish I could be with you at the table, or at least a fly on the wall.

[@InigoMontoya-]

In order for you to feel good about having hands, you need to light them on fire every now and again. The pain of flaming hands will remind you how nice it is to not have them burn; therefore, burning hands are necessary- Cameron’s argument against not burning your hands.

[@liarwithagun]

That is great for showing the flaws in this argument

[@creatinechris]

For those who don’t want to watch the whole thing. As problems are raised, the apologists further limit Gods abilities so as to justify all suffering.

[@pansepot1490]

Lol, just here to read the comments. Thanks for the synopsis.

[@DanDan-eh7ul]

Yea. I'm currently halfway through, and the arguments, paraphrased, currently are "maybe God can't make a world without natural selection / predation / disease"

[@creatinechris]

@@DanDan-eh7ul yeah dude or it’s Calvinism (we don’t know if it’s gods plan that we intervene or not, so we might as well intervene)….so dumb

[@AndJusticeForMe]

God gets weaker and weaker.

[@matterasmachine]

there is no evil from universe point of view

[@MattHalpain]

Thank you, for this rich format of discussion on A Catholic, Protestant, Atheist and Agnostic Discuss the Problem of Evil

[@diegoaquino5407]

Great discussion, this has given me quite a bit to think of… I do also think that something not spoken about in these conversations is where do we draw the line of evil? Is there no room for some sort of chaotic neutral? Because I don’t think the world is black and white, what also constitutes evil would be context, as what is evil for one person would not be for another. When I was a christian this is something that I found difficult to converse with any of my peers are the were of the belief that if it’s from god it’s good everything else is evil, which to me gave of the impression that they either didn’t think of the scope of good and evil or they did not want to give it much thought and were okay with someone else giving them the final answer I think this is definitely something that needs to be expanded upon before tackling the subject, as I believe once we can define evil we can further debate its plausibility or weather it actually has a purpose. Not sure if I made it make sense 😂

[@pranavlimaye]

41:40 This is because animals don't need complex facial expressions, sounds, and body language as much as humans need these. Being less social and more independent, they experience their pain and pleasure more internally. Humans are different because our young ones HAVE to be dependent on the adults. We can't even walk as soon as we're born. We quickly learn to be loud, frowning, attention-seekers. Wild animals have less utility (and therefore less evolutionary pressure) for these adaptations.

[@mrmaat]

Exactly. An animal’s external signaling in response to pain depends upon almost entirely upon that species social structure. Apes like us are some of the most social species known and have evolved multiple ways of signaling pain.

[@wessexexplorer]

@@mrmaat - that plus the animals are pinned down, exhausted and in shock.

[@ncjxbshj]

even with this being said, animals absolutely do not seem peaceful when they're being torn apart. IDK what's up with Cameron.

[@lacuentaalpedo]

I've always wondered how religious people actually make sense of the world. Difficult indeed, trying to imagine agency behind everything, and not only that, trying to interpret that agency. Great talk.

[@luisgustavo6117]

And then imagine perfect benevolence and infinite wisdom behind it all.

[@areyoujelton]

This makes me think that maybe the creator of this reality is a tortured artist hahahahahahahaha

[@joe19912]

Former xtian, that part was easy enough, since we have these big brains capable of a lot of imagination. The hardest part was actually questioning my own beliefs. Being raised in religion, taking those baby-steps to even surmise the possibility there is no God felt like a huge sin.

[@wattlebough]

@@joe19912 As a committed christian myself, I find it very easy to imagine a world without God. I struggle to fathom how many christian minds are so limited in this regard. It’s very easy to see this from an atheistic and evolutionary point of view. This makes the conversation around evil all the more interesting to me. When we talk about the coexistence of God and evil the atheist line takes the shortest route of blaming God for evil, but remember lads and lasses, god doesn’t exist. Therefore all we have left is evil and nobody to blame for it. It just is. (Correction: if a god or gods do not exist we have nobody to blame for the existence of evil human behaviour - except **ourselves** .) If anything it can only represent a flaw in the evolution of life on earth. Why waste your time surmising on a fictitious god’s weakness or inherent evil if that god is a figment of somebody else’s imagination? You’re losing time developing your own understanding of the existence of evil and the human condition minus a deity.

[@sschreck08]

@@joe19912 I'm there right now. Whenever something bad happens to one of my loved ones or me, I wonder if I'm being punished for questioning whether God exists.

[@Ben_419]

I really love intelligent debates like this. You guys are all very smart

[@davydtaylor4151]

I have no idea how a man can argue in favour of evil just so we can have bravery, and keep a straight face.

[@sevenninespades]

When you buy the whole story, this kind of thing is normal

[@noorzanayasmin7806]

If you do not face the biggest truest evil how would you know how brave you are? If you are always around nice and kind people why would you have to be brave or proof your bravery? It is easy to fight against a target that does not possess serious harm but if you are able to come face to face to evil and persever then there is something to say about it. Medidate on it for a second.

[@richardoffiong9932]

​@@noorzanayasmin7806is bravery so necessary that we need evil. I think the argument is that a world without evil (and therefore no need for bravery) is better than a world with evil and bravery

[@noorzanayasmin7806]

@@richardoffiong9932 So what you basically want is heaven on earth? I think we can do better than that. I think we as human have the ability to come face to face with pure evil and take it head on. From what I understand this life is a test. If you pass the test then you move onto the next phase of good life. It is like we are a simulation, we all are playing a role in it. I mean if you never have evil then how would you even know what good is? Then good will just become normal and not good anymore. In order to compare good against something else you need evil. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Why do you think girls do not like nice guys? You would think since the person is nice the girl would like him. But no. What the girl/woman want/need is enough tension/conflict to be able to stressed and grow. I mean there are bad people and good people in this world. We know that people like Mao and Stallin existed so we definitely need bravary in order to stand up against those pure evil reincarnate.

[@ballskin]

@@noorzanayasmin7806 you’re justifying evil for the sake of showcasing bravery, entirely undermining morality. only someone who has experienced little evil in their life would argue that atrocious acts should exist for the sake of a saviour. i don’t see the value of being in a fictitious tale of duality in which a supercilious few can look upon the agonising existence of man from afar to entertain themselves with philosophical speculation and metaphysical discussion.

[@Venaloid]

11:59 - Cameron's escape from the problem of evil is, as expected, to assert that God does things which are most "valuable" (whatever that even means) rather than things which are most "loving", which most people understand to mean something like, "caring for the wellbeing of others". Cameron is tacitly admitting that God is NOT all-loving, since God often abandons the "loving" option in favor of the "valuable" option. And what does "valuable" even mean here? It sounds like Cameron is saying that God wants some things more strongly than he loves his creation... which is not what the term "all-loving" would otherwise suggest.

[@JD-wu5pf]

I mean, God routinely sends people to a realm of infinite torture. Even if theists could somehow prove God is all loving despite the evil and suffering in this world, they'd still have to explain how an all loving god can create a moral system that condemns the majority of people to infinite torture. It's ludicrous.

[@hullie7529]

@@JD-wu5pf God doesn't send people anywhere. It's those people the ones that stray from God. The Bible says that we must think of God as our father, and your father will love you unconditionally until the end and he will do anything for you, but if you grow up and start doing drugs, stealing money from your father, beating him, calling him names, you never visit him, you tell all your friends that your father is a piece of crap... well, if many years later you go to his house you might find the door is closed, and you can't accuse him of not loving you enough. The good news is the Bible teaches us repentance, so you can go to your father, ask him for forgiveness and he will open the door for you. If you're an Atheist this might not make sense, but that's how a religious person would think and that's why they wouldn't find your argument convincing.

[@JD-wu5pf]

@@hullie7529 God does send people to Hell. He is omnipotent and omniscient. If he didn't want people in Hell, he either didn't have the power to stop them from going or he didn't know they'd be going. If people end up in Hell, it is because God wanted them there. "You must think of God like a father (except in cases where I decide he is mysterious and infinite and not at all like a father)". My father would do everything in his power to stop me from throwing my life away. If I still threw my life away, it would be because my father didn't know what actions to take to prevent it from happening. Is that God's problem? That he doesn't know how to make me believe in him? Or is he simply not powerful enough to take the actions required? Or are there no actions that can be taken for him to make me believe? If there aren't, he created me knowing I'd go to hell. Also, my father is human and so there are limits to his love. God claims to be all loving, so you can see how "abandoning someone to eternal punishment" might conflict with that alleged attribute. Religious people routinely try and justify infinite punishment for billions of people. Respectfully, I don't give a fuck what they find convincing. They aren't thinking rationally at that point.

[@hullie7529]

@@JD-wu5pf I'm not sure I agree with the notion that if you throw your life away it's your father's fault because he didn't take the right actions. Specially if you live away from your father in another country thousands of miles away, which is what Atheists do with God in this analogy. If your issue is that "God could do more to prevent it", then you're just throwing your own expectations to God. But this is also bad logic because I don't think you operate in the same way in your personal life, so that if any of your friends doesn't behave exactly how you expect them to behave you don't consider them your friend.

[@JD-wu5pf]

@@hullie7529 You just aren't thinking rationally. God is all powerful. He's all knowing. He exists "beyond space and time". I don't live "far away" from God, he literally is everywhere, all the time, and has infinite power and knowledge. I'm not "throwing expectations" onto God, these expectations are coming from theists who claim he's all powerful and all knowing and all loving. If I had perfect knowledge that my friends were going to die in a drunk driving accident, and I was omnipotent, I could stop them from dying in said car accident. Further, if I *didn't* stop them from dying in said car accident, I am to blame for their deaths. I had the ability to prevent it, preventing it would have cost me nothing, and I chose not to. Do you think their families, upon learning that I let their loved ones die horrifically, would say that I loved my friends? What if I told them that I really really valued free will? Of course not. An all-loving entity would intervene and prevent all of that needless suffering. God can't be all powerful, all knowing, all loving, AND send people to hell. He either needs to lose one of those attributes or he needs to stop sending people to hell.

[@nathandoyle625]

There really is a difference in evil and suffering. Evil requires intent. Suffering requires only existence. I know this doesn't eliminate the idea of a god that would create suffering, but I feel that the lack of distinction is problematic.

[@nathanwood5977]

This is the problem. Evil is an invention to describe actions that are bad but we know things are not that simple. People do bad things because they are mentally ill, cannot control their anger, kill to survive and so on. Suffering is just a brute fact of nature which is perhaps and probably most likely, predetermined.

[@bike4aday]

Yes, exactly. And evil requires intent, but even intentions are caused by natural conditions same as suffering. This really begs the question; what are good and evil? This question will lead to a greater understanding rather than accepting what we already think they are and trying to make a worldview prematurely.

[@LittleMAC78]

@@nathanwood5977 I think there is more nuance than that. To the mind of the person we might describe as 'mentally ill', their actions have a benefit to them whether it be achieving a particular goal that is of entirely subjective benefit or that they enjoy a particular hormonal rush from actions. It could along the lines of indulging the requests of the 'voices in their heads' to either receive praise from or to silence them which would make that individual feel the outcome was a positive one. EDIT: Rewording as I've essentially repeated a point!! It is only the victim or the observers of the actions that may describe the act as having been 'evil' as they do not receive any of the perpetrators perceived benefit and are aware of the negative effect that the action may have on another person or group of people.

[@nathanwood5977]

@@LittleMAC78 Yes, absolutely.

[@juanibarravazquez4075]

Perhaps it’s better to think about this discussion in terms of pleasure and suffering. I think making that distinction doesn’t change the discussion but it does feel more precise.

[@TheModesC]

As a "coloured" South African human being (not animal) who grew up during Apartheid, I was so taken aback by that Martin Luther response 🤣 Like wow.

[@xuvial1391]

It basically implies that people SHOULD try to commit murder because it gives opportunities for heroism, bravery, courage, etc and that makes it totally worth committing murder. That logic is insane.

[@TheChef1984]

I’ve not got all the way through this yet, but I feel compelled to acknowledge 10:27 when Trent had a potential counterpoint to make, but says something like “I don’t want to derail from the point you were making” was a touch of class. Often times these discussions fail to make ground because people talk past each other, and this is a great example of the kind of etiquette that can avoid such a problem.

[@ems5008]

Love this! I'm an athiest and watch all your videos. I also watch Trent Horn's videos from time to time. I grew up a very strong Catholic (I actually considered becoming a nun as a teenager) so watching his views on God and Catholicism with new eyes is very interesting. This is great!

[@johnbrzykcy3076]

I also grew up in the Catholic religion and I wanted to be a priest. I don't know why that desire faded away ( I guess for various reasons). I watch different channels about Christianity, Islam. reality, atheism etc. I even like to watch videos about elephants. Some of the most compassionate and caring animals seem to be elephants. Peace to you

[@paynedv]

Extra Ecclesiam Nulla salus

[@TomJudson]

If there were a god, and he were omnipotent, he could make a world with no evil and populate it with people who appreciated the fact that there was no evil in the world. Any other theoretical world with a god posits a really sadistic god.

[@LordXalad]

or a god who does have perfect intent but lacks full control - but you knew that already

[@davidevans3223]

Lol with your tiny mind we have been given freedom the free world only exists thanks to the bible that's a fact and free thinking advanced science. But look at the new religons veganisum or infinite gender theory where gender is a feeling outside of biology like a spirit or socialism all are oppressive and the damage yet the atheists believe they are morally superior and are willing to use force for there beliefs on everyone else. Telling you what you can do eat and even think denying science as bigoted. Look at China committing genocide north Korea a slave nation both atheist USSR before they went back to Christianity mass genocide. Free will means people will do evil thing's and without the bible it's oppression and suffering. Look at a bacteria to us huge gap in intelligence to God we are almost the same to say the difference is trillions of times more intelligent than us from bacteria is still nowhere near infinitely more intelligent so it might look bad to you but that's not the same as bad. In the Americas cannibalism was normal same in Africa it wasn't morally wrong to them

[@TomJudson]

@@LordXalad the god you describe is not omnipotent.

[@LordXalad]

@@TomJudson Yep, exactly my point

[@TomJudson]

@@LordXalad Gotcha.

[@sgringo]

4:23 - He's talking about Rabbi Harold Kushner (author of Why Bad Things Happen to Good People) and his son who died from progeria (a "rapid aging" disease). He was the rabbi at the reform synagogue my parents attended for a while. I saw his son fairly regularly at a summer camp I attended.

[@slower__8437]

Alex I notice a few recording things that I am happy to help you with if ever needed as a mixing/mastering engineer. 1. The floor noise is pretty loud and can get a bit distracting 2. volume in general is pretty low ( hard to hear during my workout at the gym with music in the background) 3. Joe is hard to hear and could be boosted when he speaks. Once again, happy to go through it as a volunteer. Love the vids take care!

[@RR9D]

Cool job! Hope he sees it!

[@lissam8988]

I did not hear any floor noises and I can hear everybody's voice very clearly. It could be your headphones or your blue Bluetooth. everybody's voice was very clear And I was able to hear them very clearly. without headphones or bluetooth. maybe try listening to it again but without extra equipment just your phone.

[@anthonynorman7545]

@@lissam8988 I had trouble hearing as well and I've been on KZbin, via my phone most the day.

[@VaughanMcCue]

What a kind offer you made. Obviously a believer ...in the FS Monster.

[@chronicmasterbaiter5467]

Almost a textbook example of an offering someone watching healthygamer would make :D Was I right?

[@reedclippings8991]

Most entertaining how badly the theists seek affirmation from Joe. Cameron sort of seems like he's in the wrong weight class here. It's so feasible that God could have created a natural system where all animals ate non-sentient food, or a natural system with a lower rate of re-production, so less predation was necessary. He chose not to... To say a world where slavery never existed is worse than a world where slavery was overcome is absolutely absurd. The only reason to opt out of reason here is because of an emotional commitment to theology. Classy not to call them out on this, but to be religious is to have such a commitment. I would not rather see evil defeated, because for an alarming number of people, evil won..dramatically. Alex's strongest point is in the segment following around 50:00.

[@areyoujelton]

Yeah what happened to all that magical “manna” god rained down on the Israelites? Couldn’t he have given every being that free magic food?

[@reedclippings8991]

@@areyoujelton Ha! This is why it's so important to manage those energy/manna resources when playing mmos. Alex didn't even bring up the disparity between what Abrahamic religions usually claim, and what Trent is saying. Respect his will to stay on topic. Trent seems to (I could be wrong) claim that God is responsible for the natural world we're in, but doesn't intervene in it actively. It would be a very odd church that would teach that..

[@hullie7529]

According to Jewish/Christian theology, God did create that perfect world and we know it as the Garden of Eden, and the suffering in this current world is because of the original sin, not because it was part of God's original design.

[@c-fin]

Agreed. I’m surprised Alex or Joe didn’t hint at the emotional attachment part.

[@apostatar3022]

@@hullie7529 why is eating from a tree a sin ? And why is such sin bad ? And why do we humans who have nothing to do with eve's and adame's choice suffer the consequences of their actions ?

[@inhumanhyena]

Wow. Excellent discussion

[@purplesoup2]

This is a good discussion, and covers a lot of arguments so it is definitely very worthwhile - and as others have said the format works very well too. It would be nice if Alex discussed this topic with someone sympathetic to Process Theology, maybe that could be a future topic? I found "Open and Relational Theology" by Thomas Jay Oord fascinating - perhaps he could come on as a guest?

[@deadweaselsteve3262]

The novelist Lawrence Sanders wrote a story about a detective suffering excruciating stomach pains. Everyone in his office thinks it's cancer, and they all keep telling him to go see a doctor. Finally, he goes to a doctor, who diagnoses an ulcer. Everybody in his office tells him, "Bet you're glad it's not cancer." "Easy for you to say, " says the detective. "It's not your fucking ulcer."

[@iyar220]

What's the name of the story? Or short story collection if that's what it's from?

[@Jarod-dx7hx]

The people in the office are still morally in the right even if for the wrong reasons… living a life of pain is better than choosing not to live at all because life is intrinsically valuable

[@TheMargarita1948]

That must be an old story. Stomach ulcer has been curable by a 5-day course of antibiotics since the 1990s.

[@Nickers19]

​@@Jarod-dx7hx Intrinsically good by what measure?

[@dionysis_]

More of this kind of convos please 🙂 Also, talk to Jonathan Pageau one to one.

[@mrburns5245]

Hey Alex, great video as usual. Could you do a video on the “companions in guilt” argument for moral realism? Would love to hear your thoughts on it.

[@zaidsyed8187]

I liked that honest realization in the end that many religious ideas appear to be responses to problems humans have encountered in life. That shouldn't take away from whether or not those realizations are true though. I, for one, don't think they are, but I don't think so purely on this basis.

[@elijahdick9568]

I appreciate that the thumbnail depicts this as a civil and honest discussion, not a battle or a "Cosmic Skeptic OWNS 2 Christians" type of thing

[@VaughanMcCue]

It would have been better to say two sensible people wasted their time entertaining mythology. I hope St-Doug-of-PineCreek will extract something from this to redeem its value.

[@knightimer2]

Agreed, I really dislike how many videos start us off with a title to drive a narrative before we even begin watching. It’s such a reprehensible way to post content.

[@tommydevine9993]

@@knightimer2 however, once you start watching it, you realize that only one of the two sides is making the case for suffering being good because it "teaches us valuable lessons". Somehow, I feel like disease, famine, hate crimes, war, poverty, cancer, etc. aren't particularly beneficial to those who experience it versus not having to experience it... When you make the case that animals being ripped apart alive is somehow "peaceful", your position immediately become pretty weak...

[@knightimer2]

@@tommydevine9993 I agree. Maybe I'm being naive in thinking that it should be up to the viewer to determine that for themselves, rather than relying on a narrative driven title to sway opinion before the conversation even starts. I do think that the more civil it appears in the thumbnail and title helps with algorithims and makes it so both atheists and religious people will see it. If it said, "Christian tries to justify suffering," then I would assume a lot of Christians might not even watch it and assume it's just another atheist video. But in reality I don't know how it all works, I just have a sour taste in my mouth from seeing all of those political commentators with their absurd titles like, "Ben Shapiro OWNS stupid femenist," etc.

[@tommydevine9993]

@@knightimer2 yeah, you're right. It definitely invites a more diverse audience to watch the video and "participate" in the discourse which is definitely a positive. It helps to prevent "otherizing" the opposing side with the ridiculous and off-putting "person 1 DESTROYS pathetic person 2" click bait. Still though, it's hard to listen to this particular discussion when one of the four participants is essentially coming in with a disingenuous set of talking points meant to purely try and "win" or rather not lose the debate. I may not agree with the positions of the other theist guy, but I can at least recognize that he's coming in with the intention of explaining his position with examples that are at least somewhat genuine to his worldview.

[@amirhosseinahmadi3706]

Cameron's lack of self-awareness, the evident self-satisfaction with which he expresses his absurd beliefs and arguments, makes him an endless source of pure cringe.

[@solacedagony1234]

I personally think it makes much more sense to explain the absurd beliefs and arguments as a click generator rather than lack of self awareness.

[@uninspired3583]

Cringe is an overused word, but in this case it isn't strong enough.

[@nitroh7745]

This is exasperated by how intelligent and on point the other three are

[@joannware6228]

@@solacedagony1234 What's a click generation; is it a person with no free will?

[@solacedagony1234]

@@joannware6228 You're really trying hard here

[@bananapeel892]

What an amazing discussion. I really feel a sense of respect from all these people towards each other. Not only did everyone bring up very interesting points, but I feel like these kinds of videos are an example of what these conversations could be like. This felt more like people debating about workout methods or programming languages. I mean that as a compliment because in those conversation, people are usually respectful and the tone is friendly. Unsuprisingly, this allows for a much more intellectual conversation where everyone has the opportunity to present complete arguments.

[@seattletcj]

gnostic cosmology would be an interesting addition to the conversation as the problem of evil is one of the central issues being addressed there

[@KodyackCasual]

I think the most key point to push back against people who argue something like, for example, racism is necessary is to ask what of all the people who have no choice in being brave or great to overcome such a thing? All the people who spend their entire lives trapped and locked down by such things- and no matter how great they may have been in another context- never have the chance to prove themselves because of this oppressive situation? If the plan of God was to produce bravery and heroics- he is doing a shit job of it since he requires so many people to never have a chance to show these virtues he supposedly values more than keeping people happy.

[@anthonynorman7545]

+

[@jonathanstensberg]

Well that's an extremely demeaning idea of what it means to "prove" oneself.

[@KodyackCasual]

@@jonathanstensberg This is under the assumption that a God is attempting to bring out these traits in humans. I, personally, don't think any life is worthless or that anyone needs to have a purpose or "goal" in life- so long as they enjoy it and don't make things worse for others on purpose. Granted that's more of a moral view on things. Take for example a slave born into early America, never taught to read, sold at a young age and killed for a perceived slight against their "masters" in their teenage years. There are many stories like this or worse that actually happened, after all. In the view that God is doing this to bring out people like Martin Luther King Jr., those people *never* had the opportunity to *become* like MLK jr. Their lives were not their own, and they could not be brave, they could not be heroic, their flames were simply extinguished. Even I, a flawed human, can come up with better ways to bring out bravery in humanity than the sacrifice of hundreds of *millions* of people who simply didn't have the chance.

[@jonathanstensberg]

@@KodyackCasual I still think this is a pretty demeaning notion of what makes someone a great person, or whatever terminology you want to use. MLK obviously did great things and exhibited excellent virtue (though obviously not without his own faults), but limiting greatness to the archtype of an MLK-esque figure is a pretty dim view of what it means to have a fulfilling or noble or worthwhile life. A no-name slave forgotten to history who suffered a short life of cruel oppression who managed to live a charitable life of self-sacrifice and generous service to others lived a far greater life than most of the great figures of history. It's pretty demeaning to tell oppressed peoples that they are ipso facto incapable of living good lives unless they manage to become world-historical figures.

[@KodyackCasual]

@@jonathanstensberg .... So you just assumed the no-name slave had a charitable or self-sacrifical life? How? How would they have the chance to even begin to do that? Look, as I said, every person's life has value and worth. You are conflating the ideas of a so-called God with me, which is frankly hilarious. Did I say anyone needed to be like MLK jr. to be a great person? No. No I did not. Take a second and actually think about what i'm saying here will you? If a God wishes to bring out this "greatness" through suffering, it requires many people never get a chance to be great in the current model. They never have a choice, they never could be. Let's go to disease researchers for instance. The people who find cures to life threatening child-diseases. They are great people. But those babies, children, or teens that died bed-ridden their whole lives? The unfortunately couldn't *be* great in this worldview. I argue that such a God is at best ambivalent towards us, at worst an absolute moron. All lives have meaning, and had I the ability, I would make sure they all got to prove their character. But I am no God.

[@_Booker_DeWitt]

I just watched Alex and Trent's brilliant first debate and was wondering if they would ever come back together again. And then this drops!

[@erenyeager9371]

The one from 2 years ago or the recent one from a few months ago?

[@papapatriarchy5372]

I dont know any of these gents and their work, I'm just casually interested in the topic. I loved that in their good faith argumentation, I couldn't really tell what their ideological bend was. It was more so a good conversation of intelligent intuitions. Thanks for this.

[@blakejohnson1264]

We need part 2!

[@calvinwithun6512]

That building is structured exactly like my old house... it's very surreal to see you four sitting in what appears to be my living room! 🤣

[@pdxnikki1]

😂

[@jeremiahbok9028]

After their debate on the Matt Fradd show, I am thrilled to see Trent Horn with Alex again. 😊

[@CreativeMaxer]

It's nice to see Miles Teller showing his acting as well as intellectual chops. I enjoyed it.

[@theramblingreviewer5150]

Trent discussing the idea of animals getting cognitive boosts in the afterlife reminds me of the science fiction writings of Cordwainer Smith, a classic, although less known SF writer -comparably to someone like Kurt Vonnegut, Ray Bradbury, Isaac Asimov, Philip K Dick. In his story, The Dead Lady of Clown Town, there is a sort of messiah figure, part animal and part human who leads animals in a peaceful revolution against their suffering. That is a major abridgement of the plot, but the story is wonderful and very poignant.

[@FernandoMartinez-ms6ls]

Deberías de tener más debates cómo éste 👍

[@stripedpajamas273]

this was so well edited to make me feel like i was at the table

[@igorchak48]

Great conversation! I feel like if you guys would first define what evil and suffering is then it would have been a more structured debate. We all perceive life differently and what might be evil to one person might not be to another.🙏🏼

[@kwstasgavras2802]

Can i join this dinner of yours ? Excellent podcast gentlemen

[@justin_sanchez_]

This conversation would have been helped by a formal definition of evil. And also by explaining how evil can exist if transcendental categories don't exist (the atheist/agnostic never elaborate on this). No offense to the Protestant guy, but he seemed like a wikipedia scholar. More people like the Catholic and the agnostic would be appreciated

[@uninspired3583]

Lol. The protestant guy runs one of the larger christian youtube channels. That just goes to show how often, chrome > substance.

[@francescoghizzo]

In my opinion, the problem of evil is not the strongest argument against god, since not all gods are infinitely good. The god of the Old Testament, for example, doesn't care about being good

[@bike4aday]

Yes, there are a lot of assumptions made about good and evil in this discussion and no one questions it.

[@tennicksalvarez9079]

I wish they did define evil but they all knew how inconvenient that would be for everyone because each person has a different idea or view of what evil is because no one has a perfect definition

[@uninspired3583]

@@tennicksalvarez9079 there's actually a lot of concepts that have this problem. Usually there's a general common core with fuzzy edges. If the discussion is kept to the general common core maybe definitions aren't necessary. Consider the problem of a heap. Is a tablespoon of salt a heap? If you're putting it in your mouth, certainly. If you're taking it out of a mine, definitely not. It's context dependant. Evil is dependent on context as well, the world view provides the frame around which evil is defined. In Cam's case, his world view is such that many types of agregious harm are justified, and therefore not really evil. I think that reveals a fault in the world view, rather than just a problem of definition for evil.

[@SkaiHero]

I'm still theistic, but I've been followed to CosmicSkeptic for a very long time because he makes a good argument about a lot (if not all) of things... Keep making videos, brother. :)

[@Cassim125]

I have found that most theists have to avoid this topic like the plague to feel good about God. If you are honest and not sociopathic there's no way you can tackle this issue and not feel disgusted and disturbed at this deity. Its also so easy to sit in ivory tower and talk about theoretical suffering but dive into real life sufferings and see how difficult it is

[@johnbrzykcy3076]

@@Cassim125 I do feel "disgusted and disturbed" by this issue of evil and suffering but so far I can't blame God. I've had cancer during the past 15 years and sometimes the side-effects from treatments make me ask "why?" and "What is the good that comes from this?" I know that many people have much worse suffering and I often wonder how they survive. What keeps them going? I like your honesty and I don't have the answers. I wish I did. Peace to you

[@SkaiHero]

@@Cassim125 I was born in a 3rd world country... I know exactly how difficult it is... I wouldn't be enjoying what I have right now, had I not thought of God and my family when I got really close to committing suicide.. Also, deity, by the first definition I looked up, was pertaining to those polytheistic beliefs.. which is a lot different than what I believe... feeling "disgusted" at this diety, makes you an anti-theist theist. If you actually believe they don't exist, why get disgusted?

[@Cassim125]

@@SkaiHero you are obviously very new to the subject of apologetics seeing how literal you define deity only in a pagan way. I will tell you to read my original comment properly. The problem of evil isn't about God's existence. From an internal POV you have to be sociopathic to not be disturbed at such a God given the tons of sufferings.

[@Cassim125]

@@johnbrzykcy3076 did god think of what would happen before creating the world. Did it know all the suffering that would occur ? Why couldn't it create ppl in heaven from the start ? Why couldn't it create nothing instead of suffering? Ask these and you realise if there's a god it is to blame. Many also say god compensates sufferers with heaven. Compensation implies an offence, a crime, a mistake ie god is not morally perfect

[@user-jy6yy2fl9y]

Awesome conversation! I am super curious about what Alex was going to site from C.S. Lewis... did I miss that?

[@jakovcu]

Honestly in my opinion Alex and Trent Horn have put forward 90% of solid ideas in this conversation, two of them are really worth listening.

[@inedanap6253]

Yeah as a Christian listening to Cameron was painful as fuck. I could listen to Alex and Trent talk to each other all day

[@lampad4549]

​@@inedanap6253nah after the desting debate Trent just comes across as an idealogue

[@natebozeman4510]

I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. Just earned a new subscriber. I'm a theist, but I really enjoyed the dialogue. Alex and Trent did an amazing job contributing to the dialog, and I greatly admire Cameron's ability to listen. He didn't say much, but when he did speak, I think it was fruitful. A life skill many of us could learn from.

[@k7450]

When Cameron spoke it was fruitful? Haha what? Didn't you understand anything he said?

[@natebozeman4510]

@@k7450 I specifically think his observation about their axiological presuppositions bringing them to a stop in the conversation because they would simply disagree based on their intuitions was helpful to bring the talk forward.

[@olemew]

@@natebozeman4510 Yes, for the wrong reasons. It is good to put axioms on the table to see whether it makes sense to have the conversation in the first place. For example, if you think Faith is enough, there's no point in debating the existence of God. But in this case, he brought it up because his axiom was basically "the suffering and humiliation of millions due to slavery and racism was worth it because we got to see MLK!". How out of touch you have to be to say such a thing. Alex and Trent were the best contributors. The agnostic guy was mostly quiet but helped to move forward the conversation. And Cameron was just awful. The funniest part was his "oh so many thoughts I don't know where to start..." 29:00 as if he was ready to share a myriad of counter-arguments and he mumbled his way out while desperately hoping for Trent to take over. He had no answer. "Well I don't know... maybe we need to create some ad-hoc explanation like dogs can talk in Heaven... we need more resources, probably, Trent save the day please".

[@olemew]

@@natebozeman4510 oh and I almost forgot the "an animal being ripped apart actually looks peaceful" WTF

[@protestanttoorthodox3625]

This is awesome. Glad to see more of this stuff happening 🙌 guess I might have to sub lol 😆

[@PoetlaureateNFDL]

Good discussion. 😮

[@georgehiggins1320]

I ran across some of your videos several years ago when I was still Catholic. Your arguments and explanation of theist arguments have stuck with me and I've since abandoned my belief in the existence of any gods. I find the discussion about the existence of a god fascinating and I hope to continue to learn about what people believe, why they believe it and what methods of coming to beliefs are reliable.

[@xaviervelascosuarez]

Evil is the absence of the good that should be. Evil is parasitic on good, as darkness is parasitic on light, as ugliness is parasitic on beauty, as nothingness is parasitic on being. To have and recognize evil you must first have and recognize good. To be able to distinguish between good and evil you need the frame of reference we call the moral law. To have a moral law you need a moral legislator. A moral legislator is what we call God. Hence, Evil proves there's good; good proves there's moral; moral proves there's God. Conclusion: the problem of evil is a problem only for the atheist, who cannot even say there's evil as distinct from good if there's no God.

[@lewiakk5844]

There’s a Jewish proverb that says “the fence of wisdom is silence” (Avot) and I feel like it applies to Joe.

[@YourHeartIsTheKey]

I can’t tell if that’s a knock against him or are you complimenting him??

[@lewiakk5844]

@@YourHeartIsTheKey it’s a complement.

[@TAME906]

I want to see Alex and Mike Winger have a chat, possibly on devine hiddeness or simply just see where the conversation leads.

[@chrishand9324]

Im a christian and think alex is very very smart, and like his debates and i think meetings like this is really cool! At ya house maybe few drinks and just chat with multiple views.

[@lillypotter6722]

This is going to be an interesting conversation.

[@lucioh1575]

It was pretty bad... So much cringy justifications for suffering.

[@lillypotter6722]

@@lucioh1575 yeah I wrote that comment before watching the video. It’s not what I thought it would be I thought it was going to be a debate.

[@23Hiya]

Really appreciate the conversation. It would be interesting to see a group like this push to find areas of common ground in the future. How different are their goals for the human community? A few thoughts: 1. First, the theist position displayed here on compassion and bravery is so confusing. It just feels like a desire for spectacle. I really don't know how else to characterize it. It borders on Neitzche's rejection of an emasculating Christianity. 2. The notion that animal suffering isn't morally significant is strange to me as well. The only major difference between my experience of a severe burn and a koala's is that I can talk about it, language. I doubt theists want to make language use the measure by which to assess the moral relevance of a given organism's suffering. 3. I don't see why God can't intervene in a natural system. Trent just seems to assume that God can't be wildly proactive, as though it were totally incompatible with a regular universe to have a more activist creator. 4. Trent's defense against moral paralysis seems iffy to me. Can a free creature, with its limited knowledge, prevent an evil God was using to secure some much greater good? Would God prevent the prevention of the evil? If He would not, does that mean that there is gratuitous suffering?

[@juanibarravazquez4075]

To be fair, you could argue that there is a major difference between human and non-human animal suffering given by the fact non-human animals are not necessarily conscious about their own suffering like humans are. If I burn my hand I can say that I suffer more than a Koala because I can reflect about what I’ve lost, like the good things I could’ve had if I wasn’t burn. Yet I think the difference is insignificant to argue that animal suffering is not a concern. Yeah non human animals mostly only suffer only from physical pain (or perhaps some kinds of anxiety) yet the sheer amount of that supposedly “lesser pain” we see in the world should be enough to make it a concern, let alone the fact the humans also experience physical pain and intuitive know is not insignificant. I just don’t understand what how the theists think that’s a good answer.

[@23Hiya]

@@juanibarravazquez4075 I think you're right in the sense that humans can introduce a unique kind of pain through rumination and the stimulus functions of language. But even that leverages the same nervous system. Cheers sir.

[@MrCmon113]

@@juanibarravazquez4075 There's 0 reason to believe the koala mourns it's loss and pain kess than you. And there's plenty of reason to believe it suffers more intensely and is less able to cope.

[@not_a_theist]

All my respect to anyone who will sit down and constructively converse with those of different opinions. Thanks so much for this.

[@ForLogicandReason-Mark1]

Something of which most atheists hate to do. They love to make claims without evidence and expect everyone to take their word for it. Theists do the same thing too, but mainstream atheists are another side of the same coin.

[@johnbrzykcy3076]

I lack in much intellectual ability ( due to cancer? ) but I also respect this type of conversation. I think strong arguments against those with different opinions/worldviews is the wrong approach. Respect to you

[@obitouchiha3397]

3:23 If you think the problem of evil is not a big hurdle then you have not suffered enough

[@-Ahmed8592]

It’s not a logical problem for the existence of God

[@goranmilic442]

​@@-Ahmed8592 It's a logical problem for existence of God that is all-powerful and all-good.

[@nicklol4912]

1:07:14 Alex is so quick witted. Bravo 👏

[@melchiordeduser5967]

Would Cameron and Trent prefer this discussion to be interrupted buy a person with a hummer breaking into the room, and crushing their legs so they would experience the good of compassion, courage and relief?

[@joannware6228]

Have you ever thought about all the suffering you have caused? I know you've never caused any. Right.

[@davidjewell9796]

@@joannware6228 Often a simple question can be more effective than an entire day full of thinking deeply about this conversation as I have (been driving home from Christmas break with family). Got home not too long ago, safely. Grateful for that. I got super into thinking about all the what ifs and good points that the video participants made. Had some exciting philosophical ideas come knocking on the windows at the furthest reaches of my mind's residence. Then started reading the conversations in the comments. Great point you had here in asking this question as an answer to the scoffing question posed. This stuff...these conversations are the most important thing humans can think about. If it is true that God exists and that God is good, it is the most important truth available to humans. I think deep down people know this, otherwise they wouldn't resist the idea so hard.

[@joannware6228]

@@davidjewell9796 Thanks. That question is truly one of the most important questions a person can ask himself. It's one the atheists avoid at all costs.

[@joannware6228]

@@davidjewell9796 "In Him, then, and through Him, we know God. Apart from Him, and without the Scripture, without original sin, without a necessary mediator promised and come, we cannot absolutely prove God, nor teach right doctrine and right morality. But through Jesus Christ, and in Jesus Christ, we prove God, and teach morality and doctrine. Jesus Christ is, then, the true God of men." Blaise Pascal "Pensees"

[@joannware6228]

@@davidjewell9796 "There are only two kinds of men: the righteous who believe themselves sinners; the rest, sinners, who believe themselves righteous." Blaise Pascal "Pensees"