5 Things every world builder should do less of (based on reader survey)

[@tarvoc746]

4:07 - "If you're going to have a world be flat, this needs to feature in some way in your story." Terry Pratchett in most Discworld novels: "Nah, I'm good, thanks."

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

Hahahaha. Fair. Like with everything in writing, these are guidelines and thoughts. A well written story can always get away with almost anything :) (Rule 0: If it's cool enough, it's always allowed)

[@DarkSol16]

To be fair, Terry Pratchett actually does feature the flatness of the world in some of his books. In the first book he published, the characters ends up falling off the edge.

[@tarvoc746]

@@DarkSol16 Yeah, hence why I said "most". The flatness of the world is actually an important plot point in several of his novels, it's just that there are also a lot where it doesn't really matter. Oddly enough, I believe Discworld also still has a horizon / limited sight.

[@zubbworks]

@@tarvoc746 Most of his "logical" problems were solved with "Eh, don't worry about it. The people who live here don't. And they're fine."

[@jonpress4470]

I find it interesting that the Lord of the Rings, one of the most beloved fantasy franchises of all time, breaks most of these rules. Although you can argue that it created what most of us would consider "predictable tropes".

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

So, I gotta hard disagree about LotR falling foul of these insights (and I wouldn't call them rules, just insights I mined out of the survey). But let's take them one at a time: 1. Gratuitous Complexity: LotR is not overly complex at all. The world building is deep, but the reader can grasp what they need from the page. For example, we know from the text that elves see better than humans. It's explained somewhere in the notes why (born when the earth was flat), but honestly, we don't need the notes, it's enough to to know it's true. It's really great world building, but subtle and easy to get immersed in. 2. Unnecessary Filler: Okay, this one is a little bit true. The travel descriptions get long. 3. Predictable Tropes: You gotta exercise caution here. If you check the companion video I made about what readers love, they absolutely do love tropes, they just want them done well and I'd argue that Tolkien both did them well and gets a bit of a free pass because he was first. After all the tropes were fresh when he used them :P 4. Sensitive Themes: Tolkien tackles a chunk of themes and does them all really well. War, environmental protection, ordinary people getting stuff done, that's all there in his books. You could read other things into his stories, themes that aren't so great, but the guy was Englishman who lived like a hundred years ago. Of course he has some baked in prejudices. 5. Fantasy integration: The fantasy integration is genuinely fantastic and I'll fight anyone who says otherwise. Tolkien's fantasy elements are deeply integrated into everything about his world. So I'd say it's only really filler that he falls foul of and if people complain about Tolkien, that's what they complain about. The long descriptions. And Tom Bombadil.

[@c.d.dailey8013]

That is cool. I give Tolkien a free pass on the tropes part. Lord of the Rings may look like a cliche storm now in retrospect. However it was a huge innovation for it's time. It has a whole new spin on fantasy. It is just that many books afterwards copied Tolkien. Then that spawned cliches that people are so sick of. Lord of the Rings is a trail blazer and a trendsetter for Shure. It isn't fair to accuse that of being too cliched.

[@jonpress4470]

@@JustInTimeWorlds Mostly fair points. But I still am having a hard time seeing point #1. If I recall correctly (it's been some time since I watched your video), you made the point that complexity MUST contribute to the overall story, a point in which I agree. But with LotR, I would point to the chapter in which Frodo moves to Crickhollow... and before doing so... Tolkien gives us the ENTIRE history of crickhollow and the hobbits that lived there, which is wholly irrelevant to what is going on. Also there was the huge info-dump concerning the Nimrodel river after the fellowship escaped Moria that just went on and on. These and others (in my opinion) contributed NOTHING to the plot or character development and only serve to provide irrelevant details. That being said I respect your opinion and hope I'm not coming off as a jerk. :)

[@Saje3D]

@@jonpress4470Why my wife couldn’t read LOTR. Calls it too wordy.

[@katiekofemug]

The results of the survey has been fascinating! The phrase Gratuitous Complexity is perfect. I do agree complexity is groovy; but as you pointed out in another video, it is how it is delivered, info dump vs drizzling out. I love tales that drizzle what we need to know in That moment, with a few hints of what's missing, the shape of the puzzle pieces revealed a bit at a time, bringing that feeling of discovering life to the story. Researching, we tend to immerse ourselves and wander down the rabbit holes. That's all well and good for planning, pondering and plotting, but exceedingly tedious to read in the middle of chapter three or six or nine while pausing the quest for a fireside mull over or the "can't sleep cause I got to think about how the entire world got so messed up" scene. I also think you were very eloquent on Sensitive Themes, just the right amount of caution with the nudge of Self-Examination to be sure the theme really belongs in the tale, isn't just another form of tick box required. Thanks so much for sharing this with us!! [edited to add -- ADORE the thumbnail for this vid!]

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

Thanks :) and yes, they survey has been fascinating for me too and quite surprising.

[@TheMichaellathrop]

3) So I think your whole idea about the farm boy not being the chosen one is a good one, in fact I think making all the tropy bullshit happen to not the main character can be a good way to revitalize a lot of them. Imagine the most obnoxiously generic possible Isikai except your protagonist is the young noble who was courting the princess when the summoning happened, follow all the steps get his family demoted crush them economically then beat him in the school tournament arc then beat him up as a bandit then finally as a minion of the demon lord... now imagine he was in that tournament to get or keep a scholarship for the school he can no longer afford because you destroyed the business he and his family were relying on now that they are no longer nobles, now imagine the first princess gets less and less well written as the "hero" collects a harem of princesses and he watches the woman he still loves fall into some kind of weird Stockholm syndrome even if every step in this story is predictable just changing the camera angle can make it very very different. 4)I actually thought that that particular horror was done well and upset me as the viewer in the correct way when taking season one on it's own, but then it just kind of went away once the whole wolf thing entered the story which made the show as a whole feel less well written. 5)One the most annoying was to do this is to just have a magic version of everything modern society can do with tech, so instead of a fantasy world we have a modern one with a new coat of paint.

[@SteveVig]

5 excellent points out of 5, and well explained! I especially loved the treatment of sensitive topics. I've long said, "Don't put sexual violence or time travel in your story unless your story is about sexual violence or time travel." I'm definitely adding mental illness and slavery to that list from now on. (A story can be about more than one thing, of course, but those themes should either be important or absent, not in between.) Time travel isn't on my list because it's a sensitive subject, but because it introduces needless complexity, and if not outright deus ex machina, at least the shadow of it. I'm curious, what other elements do y'all suggest for the "hit it hard or ditch it" list?

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

I add substance abuse to your list. I didn't used to, but with the state of the opioids being what it is, I feel like there's a lot of people who've been hurt by that recently. And it's a theme to be careful of because it can creep into magic systems without the author realizing what they're doing.

[@SteveVig]

@@JustInTimeWorlds That's a good point! I totally agree about opioids and their fantasy equivalents. I think there might be a little flexibility in substance abuse with very common drugs like alcohol or weed, where it's okay to have minor characters who are alcoholics or stoners. Although, I might just think that because I grew up with those characters in pop culture. That's something I'll have to think about!

[@jesustyronechrist2330]

Also small note: You can mention them or allude to them, but if you are not going to focus/explore those themes and topics, you really should just keep it very very brief. Like if there's a bunch of war going on, you can allude to bad things happening in dialogue or in passing. But you hardly need a detailed scene about what the soldiers are up to on their free time...

[@SteveVig]

@@jesustyronechrist2330 I think that's true for some, but I would never mention time travel except to say it doesn't exist!

[@nyarparablepsis872]

Thank you! Very useful advice not just for writers of stories, but also for GMs!

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

You're welcome :)

[@absolutelycitron1580]

Lol I love how you're like "ok some of yall are gonna get triggered". Very well made point tho. One of my protagonists is very prejudiced and a supremecist of her culture and it takes a lot to write it in a way that doesnt seem cheap, inauthentic or glorifies her misguided ideologies. Its hard but its worth it. We'll see what beta readers think tho lol

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

Beta readers are worth their weight in gold for judging those arcs.

[@jesustyronechrist2330]

A lot of people struggle with writing these things because it requires you to "think" like the bad person even if for a moment of the heinous action. Why? Because they have their motives. And you need to understand them. Perhaps the reader doesn't, but you as the writer have to. Otherwise, you will end up writing a caricature moustache twirling villains who are irredeemable bastards to a comical degree.

[@Leitis_Fella]

Paoloni has come a long way since Eragon. I loved TSIASOS. Best sci-fi book I've read in a long time.

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

100% And I certainly couldn't have done better than him at 16. But it does make a good example :)

[@annelyle5474]

I agree that making up a wife for Perrin, only to fridge her in the first episode, was a really strange choice by the WoT writers. It felt like they couldn't think of anything interesting to do with his character, so they fell back on a really tired trope instead. I know a lot of people also didn't like what they did with Mat's parents (in the books, his father is a decent man and a friend of Rand's dad, not a womanising drunkard), but at least it gave Mat a reason to be a shady character in an otherwise idyllic setting. I've read up to Book 5, and there are some great bits in 4 & 5, but also a lot of filler like the circus section with the girls, so the idea of more of that puts me off continuing. It feels to me like Jordan loved writing about his world so much that he wanted to just hang out with the characters for as long as possible, rather than facing the inevitable end of his story. Which ironically he didn't live to see - a lesson for us all!

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

Yeah, he definitely had a bit of a tour-guide problem (And if you look to my left, you'll see the [insert something cool from WoT world]. Isn't that cool? Reader: Uh, yeah, it's cool, but can we get back to the story?)

[@amehayami934]

You know the thing I really don't like about fantasy? A lot of the time it doesn't feel fantasy. It you take away all the dragon's, the elves, all the magical creatures and mage towers and huge beautiful castles. What do you have? Earth regular boring earth. No fantastical geography, No mysterious location. No "look a forest with giant trees, but the way into the forest is covered in plants and vines, but it has one singles hole in it perfectly round that leads into the forest like it was a doorway? Is it a door way to the forest or something else?" Type of vibe. I mean really if people is going to call something high fantasy I want imagination. Yes as for me I'm trying g to learn about writing. I'm an artist I draw describing thing with words I'm not really good at drawing them I am. Wanted to make my own Manga then realized I needed to tell a story lol Us writer and artist we are the very imaginative types. So it kinda disappoints me when I see thing based too much in reality. Going by rules that our reality dictates. Every time I say "I can't do this in my world" or "I can't have that in my world" I ask why if there isn't a good reason, if it doesn't break my world, if it doesn't mess up my mechanics of my world. Then who cares it's my world I am Goddess the Entity of all things, the creator of the Gods and my world It is my law that all live by. And guess what as artist and writer so are you. Even when I was a little girl I read fantasy and syfi books, Comics and Manga. I thought of myself as an explore/Adventurer going to other people's world and expediting their imagination. I don't just what the characters to be the main characters I want the world to be a character itself as well. I want something alien to me. I want Awa and Mystery, I want to feel like that little girl again when I found a faerie ring Trying to look for fey. I love art, I love doing art and I do art to escape reality. I don't mind cultures and things "similar to" But add some "but not what you think" or "but nothing like" And add something Deep something to get me thinking maybe a different way of seeing things. I love star wars because when I saw it it wasn't anything like I have seen before even the ships looked cool. Infact it was the movie that got me wanting to be a Smuggler scoundrel freighter pilot like Han Solo, I also love Princess Bride, Legend, and Labyrinth, Lord of the rings and i play D&D 😊. Because it all transported me to a world that I never experienced before.

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

The companion video to this I actually say almost exactly that ☺️ Because lots of readers love LOADS of fantasy.

[@SteveVig]

After watching the video, I keep thinking of a fantasy novel I started reading several years ago. I didn't finish. Here's the review I wrote in 2010. "[title] is written with a very slow pace. Most pages are taken up with the lavish yet repetitive description of locations in the fantasy world. But, never fear, just when you're finally beginning to distill the basic structure of the river, road, palace, or gate from the unfocused description of its details, the scene will change as the unsympathetic main character moves on to a new location, never to return. Themes include: slavery, institutional racism, mutilation, torture, and drug addiction." On the points from the video: 1. Gratuitous Complexity: Fail, especially the ridiculous and incomprehensible social structures. 2. Unnecessary Filler: Super fail. There's at least one full chapter about being seasick. 3. Predictable Tropes: It actually did quite well on this point! It totally subverts "teen sent on a journey" by making everything about the teen, his companions, and the journey absolutely awful. Kudos! 4. Sensitive Themes: Ultimate Kamehameha Fail! All the bad things were included but none of them were examined. 5. Fantasy integration: neutral

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

Sounds like a disaster 🫣😂

[@jesustyronechrist2330]

Good, general take aways. I can indeed come up with examples that do these "bad things" well, so while these are criticisms, I think they only really apply when you have more issues than just that one in your story, which makes readers be more critical and try to find out the thing they dislike the most (even if it's not the problem, just the result of the problem). #1 Complexity is good when it actually means something and you have context for it and you understand the complexity. #2 Filler isn't "filler" when it is interesting and fleshes the world and characters out, feeling more like "main side quests" or "essential short stories" to the world. #3 Tropes are too often mistaken with cliches due to the similarity. There is nothing wrong with tropes as they give you structure to build upon. #4 "Sensitive themes done badly" applies to any theme done badly. I think this is just a common occurrence that can be labeled as "shock value". #5 This is a problem when the writer cannot grasp genre. There are certain things (tropes perhaps hmmmmmm?!) you have to hit in certain genres, as readers expect certain things. Imagine a romance with barely any romance. And here's also something to take into an account for about asking people their opinions: As a data scientist, I don't trust surveys unless in a VERY specific context. Basically, you need to give the full context of a survey in its entire as it was conducted to avoid misleading with the answers. Meaning the time it was done, who the target audience was, and where it was done. This is because of sample bias: A specific sample will be more inclined to answer in certain ways depending on their behaviour and bias. If the sample is big enough, you cannot generalize the results. But you can generalize them to that specific sample. "Fantasy reader" can mean anything, but it doesn't mean everyone. It means "people who read fantasy and happened to find and answer this survey". This already should give you some ideas what kind of people you might be dealing with (a.k.a. people who probably have read waaayyyyyy too much fantasy already lmao), but then there's the "where and when" that impact it. The survey could just be on Twitter (nobody has good opinions on that platform so those should be disqualified) or a carefully curated and tailored communities.

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

I did try to combat the bias by doing targeted advertising on Facebook at "fantasy readers". I would never use twitter, too much anger there already lol. (I too work in data for my day job ;) )

[@absolutelycitron1580]

This video is straight 🔥!! You deserve to have 100k subs fr. Also now im worried my worlds magic and and astro-physics are a bit much 😅

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

Thank you :) Also, I wouldn't worry about the fantasy being too much. If you check the companion video where I speak about what readers like, you'll see that they do love fantasy. High fantasy, lots of magic, all the things. Just don't make it so complex that they can't grasp it without a text book to guide them and you'll be fine.

[@absolutelycitron1580]

@@JustInTimeWorlds ooooh well said. I do want to keep them in my book tho the urge to go wild with exposition is STRONG! Thankfully, I am condensing it in editing, but it is my 1st book, so what I consider condensed may still be a textbook to others

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

@@absolutelycitron1580 If you're looking for a place to help you get better just with straight writing, I can recommend critique circle. It's a website where you can put your writing up and getting critiques on it and also critique other people.

[@immortaljanus]

I couldn't get into the Malazan books, even though I tried 4 times. Same with Wheel of time or Eragon, for that matter. When it comes to worldbuilding, I started with a realistic world and only added small detail that are specific to the story. The main alien-ness came simply from the fact that modern people take certain things for granted and removing that made the world a scary place. I write fantasy but I predominantly read historical fiction and non-fiction, it made me pay more attention to things fantasy tends to overlook.

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

The Malazan books can be hard for sure. It's a lot of highly complex worldbuilding with almost no exposition.

[@goblincomic4522]

Eragon basically star wars fantasy . I read entire saga and in the end the only thing come to my mind ( dude this is star wars rip off ) . They even pull darth Vader vs Luke momment with " iam your father bs "

[@pantheon777]

About Perrin in the show: finally somebody said it.

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

I'm not an automatic show hater and I can normally find a positive angle on most shows, but man that Perrin thing really grated my gears.

[@alexslanski4902]

I didn't even start the Wheel of Time TV series. Too many of the changes that people were talking about in reviews seemed to just funamentally undermine Jordan's themes, and it seemed almost disrespectful to the author in ways that made me uncomfortable.

[@horonin]

Books I read this year that I saw tropes in, but enjoyed how they were done would be Jim Butcher's Codex Alera novels, and Evan Winters' The Burning novels. Both series are my favorite reads of the year so far.

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

I haven’t read the burning but I love codex alera

[@horonin]

@@JustInTimeWorlds The Burning has two books out so far, with the third coming sometime this year or next (the author has expressed his apologies he is a little behind on book 3). The main character lives in a country that felt to me like Egypt if they were exiled and had to fight nonstop wars for hundreds of years. Very militarized and caste based it sets a wonderful stage to follow tons of action, a unique magic system, and a plot I am very much enjoying. I binged the first two books in three days after I stumbled on them at my local library. It is a darker and grittier story than many fantasy stories, in case you aren't into that.

[@Swooper86]

My main pet peeve is too many invented words, particularly if we already have a word for the concept. If your world has dwarves, just call them dwarves. If your magic system uses mana, just call it mana and move on. Readers already know those words and understand them, there's no need to create new words for us to remember. PS. I made it halfway through book 3 of Malazan before I gave up. I really want to like it but it's just too much.

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

I do like fantasy words... but I'm like that cat I keep mentioning. If you give me too many, I'll scratch your skin off :D

[@Saje3D]

Depends on how it’s done. If everything is called something different than what we’re used to, it’s cultural context. It can aid with immersion. If not done consistently, it’s pretty much causes the opposite reaction. Dwarves are called dwarves but elves have a name the writer dreamed up because they like the way it sounds? Yikes.

[@doofy67]

hey, I'm currently planning a book that is set in Europe in the 1920. I don't know anything about that time period. Can I get some advice about how to go into building a reliable setting? Thank you so much!

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

Hi there. The 1920s was just after world war 1 for Europe. It was a period dominated by the recovery from the catastrophe of the war. This is a good video for a very brief overview: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rqu6fWWOhad7g80 Bear in mind, around 40 million people lost their lives in the war, split about 50-50 between military and civilian. The post recovery period was dominated by societal change and hectic relief to be alive. I'd start there and then do some additional research into the specific country that you need. Europe after all is a pretty big place and the 1920s, it had just fought the war. Countries on the losing side would be rather different from the victors. I mean, Hitler led his first coup attempt in 1923, in the Beer Hall Putsch, Russia had just gone through revolution and civil war. Finland had seized their independence in 1917. And so on, and so forth. Depending on which country your story is in, the setting might be VERY different.

[@doofy67]

@@JustInTimeWorlds Thank you so much!

[@goblincomic4522]

You should star by going local library and borrow some book for research . 🙂

[@brantjustilian3791]

A lot of fantasy anime tends to use the captive girl trope. Where the overpowered main character buys a girl out of slavery and that girl Falls in love with the MC. Captive girls always do not to be, demons, dragon born, elves, fairies, or forests sprites.

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

Ah yes, because Stockholm syndrome is an excellent love story 😂

[@jesustyronechrist2330]

It more like part of the bigger isekai Harem trope.

[@tkraid2575]

Idk, Rising of the Shield Hero has a captive girl who isn't human (she's a red racoon girl).

[@duckdialectics8810]

I just gave up on "the Darkness that comes before" around page 350, like yesterday, and it more or less falls on the "sensitive themes done badly". There is this trend now that, I won't even say "grimdarkness", it is more like Cynicism, that the more Cynical the story is (about everything), the more "Realistic" it is. So obviously the nobles are incestuous and mad and rambling violent, and everybody is awful, and every second character is covered in mud and muck, and the streets smell of piss, and so on, and so forth. The moment the story starts giving those vibes, I will be no longer interested. More than anything else, this self irony and Cynicism is getting boring, it has been somewhat amusing for some 20 years, but it is now more than 20 years overdue.

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

Yeah, the survey results showed that grimdark is definitely a genre that is growing less popular. Dark Fantasy, fine (60%). Grimdark, only about 30% of the respondents said they like. And the difference IMO is exactly as you said, cynicism. Grimdark is relentlessly pessimistic and edgy. Dark Fantasy, though it has bleak moments, generally has enough optimism to carry the day and though the ending of Dark Fantasy may be bittersweet, in grimdark, it's all tragedy.

[@highlorddarkstar]

@@JustInTimeWorldsI suspect a lot of starting authors learned the wrong lessons from Game of Thrones.

[@duckdialectics8810]

@@highlorddarkstar possibly, Game of Thrones totally consolidated this, to say the least. I remember reading Bernard Cornwell as a teenager, and there was definitely that seed then, Elric of Melnibone, I hear, is grimdark like that pushed to the verge of parody. I am happy to hear that the public is starting to reject that

[@annelyle5474]

Totally. ASOIAF gained traction because it was subverting high fantasy tropes such as "the good guys win in the end", but ironically it created so many imitators that it spawned a bunch of tropes in turn. I enjoy a bit of grit, but not the unrelenting nihilism of most grimdark - and I especially find it ludicrous that it is held up as more "realistic' than a world where most people are fairly decent human beings just trying to get by.

[@Zee-iv9oe]

i think a series that did both its magic system and sensitive topics (specifically r*pe) well is the grishaverse series by leigh bardugo

[@4984christian]

Nice. But its advice for authors and less for world builders. 😅

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

I do tend to focus more on authors :) They all tend to need world building advice 🙃

[@yodaflyz]

I took my finger & tapped the screen. In the end I made this filler comment. 😆

[@JustInTimeWorlds]

Thank you for the engagement 😎👍

[@yodaflyz]

@@JustInTimeWorlds No problem. Keep it up! 👍