Fantasy Humans Aren't Really Humans

[@soarel325]

I think the issue is that demihuman fantasy “races”, rather than being entirely alien to us, are written more like variants of humanity, so many aspects of humanity get foisted onto them, leaving “humans” as less multifaceted beings. The more noble and mythical traits of humanity get foisted onto elves, the more warlike and industrious aspects onto orcs or dwarves, etc.

[@kiltedcripple]

Bingo!

[@Rawnblade13]

Generally humans get the generic trait of 'adaptation'. Dwarves and elves are often portrayed as dying races where as humans dominate everything because they adapt to all situations.

[@RTL2L]

Exactly! Elves are attributed good human characteristics, ors - bad.

[@soarel325]

@@Rawnblade13 That "trait" is basically not having a trait. The dying race thing is copied from Tolkien (and even for him only the elves were a dying race due to the themes of his world)

[@Rawnblade13]

@@soarel325 I wouldn't exactly call the dwarves 'thriving' in Tolkien either. We see countless dwarf strongholds overtaken and abandoned. xD Gimli is practically the only dwarf in the entire LOTR trilogy.

[@InquisitorThomas]

I think it comes down to the fact that most Fantasy Races aren’t really alien/different from Humans, they’re a reflection of certain elements of humanity. In a setting where Orcs are around humans are less violent and warlike because Orcs are pretty much a fantasy race based on our most warlike and barbaric tendencies, having equally barbaric humans just make Orcs people with Green skin and tusks.

[@dariusgunter5344]

Mmmh while I agree with your assertion in a way I think everyone of these races would be people. Cultures, languages etc. Are exchanged understanding is fostered or the races who do not fit are exterminated. If you cannot communicate on a base level with your other intelligent neighbors peace is never an option. So they need to fundamentally be similar to coexist in any way, even in Warhammer that is the case, humans and orcs can communicate and even work together in small ways. They still try to murder one another permanently because orcs and humans are too different humans and elves and Draves are more similar and as such live mcub more easily together.

[@azca.]

Well then by that logic, are other races just the same? Different aspects of humanity? What would make another race truly another race? No hate, just curious.

[@InquisitorThomas]

@@azca. Typically yes. Granted not all authors use fantasy races in the same way: Warcraft, Warhammer, and Lord of the Rings all have Orcs and they all generally are very warlike and violent, but they express themselves in different ways. Also because authors will occasionally subvert the tropes that these races are associated with like in the D&D setting Eberron Orcs are primarily druids. Also certain races have multiple tropes and portrayals and certain works might chose to focus on different elements: Dwarfs in Warhammer Fantasy, Dragon Age, and Lord of the Rings tend to be super conservative cultures with veneration of the past and family, while other Dwarfs are craftsmen and engineers who build amazing wonders like the Dwemer of Elder Scrolls.

[@umegaalfa5900]

Are other species the same as humans or humans are as other species? Being born, growing up and reproducing cycle of life, in different ways tho, wasn't invented by humans, not by far.

[@f0rth3l0v30fchr15t]

@@InquisitorThomas Warhammer dwarfs are craftsmen and engineers; but they never really recovered from the War of Vengeance against the perfidious pointy-eared gits, being followed, as it was, by Skaven warpstone fuckery that pretty much broke everything, and left Dwarfen civilisation vulnerable to the hated Greenskin.

[@benhooper1956]

"This is the most ambitious crossover in History" - Julius Caesar, upon breaching the gates of Mordor

[@NL-ws5fv]

Homo Invicta!

[@sephiroaone-of-nine101]

>_> julius caesar would get his roman ass handed to by a orc army of mordor get off your bandwagon

[@theonethesequel]

@@sephiroaone-of-nine101 *laughs in using actual stategies*

[@sephiroaone-of-nine101]

@@theonethesequel ok...

[@Gabrong]

Look centurion! The good old charge ahead tactics from the orcs. This should sort itself out quickly, why don't we drink some wine instead?

[@skoomazan5533]

I think the Witcher series has the most realistic humans. Going through the towns and cities you see the types of people that exist in those times, rough people with all the dark qualities of humanity such as intolerance, treachery, and greed. But you also see people of honor, compassion, and understanding, and everything in between. Ahh the warm messy circle of humanity.

[@danielwalker8133]

Also they literally come from earth

[@wyvernscale9634]

I mean it is literally just medieval Poland so how surprised can you be

[@jimbob6490]

real middle ages people were actually probably more colorfully dressed than people today however thing like purple would be royal colors because the dye was rare some reds and blues would probable be the most common.

[@valletas]

I just feel like the witcher is a bit too synical in its interpretation of humanity

[@midgetydeath]

That’s not realistic, though. Humans are cooperative and social and try to avoid conflict. Only fighting when they believe it is necessary for their well-being and they’re screwed if they don’t fight. Or out of their loyalty and trust being abused by greedy leaders in a time when there was no way to prove things and so living up to oaths was the only way to survive in a society. The Witcher’s portrayal of humans is entirely inhuman and nonsensical. Even their living conditions are nothing like the time period being portrayed.

[@manumainio]

Ferelden? I suggest playing the game again. The human noble story literally starts with your jealous vassal slaughtering your family and usurping your lands. And the city-elf story starts with snobby humans coming to have some "fun" with the filthy lower class elves living in a ghetto. And these are just examples out of the first 30 minutes into the game. Hell, the biggest plot point of the game is how one of the kings generals leaves him to die on a battlefield to grab the throne, in the process dooming the kingdom to ruin with an army of monsters approaching.

[@SplendidFactor]

Wdym? Clearly Loghain is a hero who did nothing wrong and spared his army from a doomed battle. /s

[@haze5420]

And also the massive tension with Orlais another human kingdom.

[@ENCHANTMEN_]

virgin every other origin story vs the chad city elf

[@noahwatt1269]

@@ENCHANTMEN_ what about the castless dwarf? He straight up scams his way into the tournament and becomes champion by bashing skulls in.

[@AccidentalNinja]

Or Tevinter, known for slavery & sacrificing people to gain magical power. Or most other human countries' treatment of mages, which can involve heavily armed soldiers taking a child & threatening to raze the village if anyone asks about them. & lobotomize any mage they determine to be too dangerous. & killing mages that managed to grow up outside of their control.

[@Jandau85]

Counterpoint to the assertion that fantasy Humans are too nice - The presence of endless external enemies (or at least competition) served to foster cooperation and tolerance within the species. They literally couldn't afford to be as backstabbing if they wanted to avoid extinction. Counterpoint to the assertion that IRL armies of adequate technological level would be vastly more effective - Roman Legions, Attila's Horsemen, etc. are all adapted to and specialized for fighting other Humans. A fantasy Human army would have to be a lot more generalist in its approach in order to adapt to the vastly greater variety of threats. This means that from our perspective of exclusively anti-Human warfare they might seem inadequate, but it's just as possible that a tight Legionary formation would simply make them a tempting target for a Fireball or some such...

[@Trunnion8]

This was my thought as well. Humanity will fight itself until it has an external threat to its existence. These worlds have such threats.

[@moriskurth628]

Wasn't there a line of that effect? "Long ago Black and White fought one another, until they put their differences aside and ganged up on Green." or something to that effect.

[@ThePuppyTurtle]

@@moriskurth628 discworld

[@Rawnblade13]

Thats a nice phalanx you have there...Be a shame if a giant fiery explosion went off right in the middle of it....

[@AstolfoGayming]

Depends heavily on the fantasy world. In LOTR, orcs fight basically like humans, with little or no magic on their side. A well oiled war machine from the middle ages or even the roman empire would probably win quite easily. Yes, trolls and such would be a problem for a while, but give it a couple battles and they'd have found a solution to them and it would no longer be much of a threat in the grand scheme of things. About the only thing I can think of that would slow them down significantly, would be the black gates, which are fucking massive, and would be no small feat to break through. In a high fantasy setting with mages, you'd probably be correct in saying that an army from our world wouldn't stand much of a chance though, since with magic it would be like putting up a middle ages army up against a modern one. They'd have no idea how to deal with their enemy's tactics and try to apply their own dogma, only to get absolutely slaughtered by an attack they couldn't have foreseen.

[@reddude954]

With the way in-groups work, being human in our world doesn’t put you in an in-group. When there are orks, and elves, and dwarves, and goblins, suddenly humans start to look out for each other more. Suddenly humans are part of a common, meaningful in-group. Humans in fantasy are usually cruel, just not towards other humans.

[@AAZ-yu5ss]

Exactly, for example with the Humans of Thedas and Tamriel. While the Humans in both worlds (or at least Tamriel, as Thedas is a really crapsack place for everyone,) are usually cordial towards one another, and don’t oppress one other outside of stating stereotypes occasionally, it’s a WHOLE different matter towards the other races (the Falmer and City/Dalish say their brief hello’s, before being disemboweled by human’s for occupying land that they want, and the less said about the Orsimer’s constant oppression the better.)

[@Croz89]

To quote Terry Pratchett: "There is no racism in Discworld, because black and white gang up against green".

[@somebodyoncetoldme5203]

@@AAZ-yu5ss Also in Tamriel two of the major races the Nords & Redguard's litteraly built their nations on genocide

[@levongevorgyan6789]

@@AAZ-yu5ss Well, no, the Red Guards and Bretons have frequently fought one another, the entirety of Elder Scrolls 2 was set in the aftermath of just such a war, and the Nords have been oppressing the Reachmen for years too. Also, the Falmer its less: hello and more: You massacred my city. Prepare to die. The Atmorans were chill with the Falmer before the Saarthal Massacre.

[@AAZ-yu5ss]

@@levongevorgyan6789 Wait, you believe complete and utter genocide (that includes newborns and children, along with thousands of innocent people) is ok if a city was massacred by a few pieces of shit high in power?! (And you do know that the Nords are an extremely patriotic people, who’s very xenophobic ancestors likely toyed with some of their history to make themselves look better.) But you do make a point that the races of men fought each other as much as the elves and beastfolk. (everyone fights each other in Tamriel really, even the gods invade to have some of that mortal action)

[@MonkeyJedi99]

Re: LOTR humans, the movies leave out a LOT of "evil" humans. Dunlendings, Umbarans, Easterlings, Haradrim, and a spectrum of people across the scale of morality here and there in "good" populations.

[@holeeshi9959]

the "elven brainwashed" ones really, I think the kingdom or Rohan and Gondor both have ties with the elven culture, so they adapted elements from that.....while the others did not

[@georgethompson1460]

@@holeeshi9959 *cough* imperial Numenor

[@brijekavervix7340]

I think you've got to consider that a lot of these fantasy people are fabricated by real people for the purpose of telling stories about good and evil and so on. If they were to make their people truly realistic, the good-evil divide would become very blurred which is not as ideal for such clear cut moralistic tales.

[@unifiedhorizons2663]

@@brijekavervix7340 I love realistic story telling in war there’s only one side is slightestly least evil

[@brijekavervix7340]

@@unifiedhorizons2663 wut?

[@zacosner]

You’re confusing “humans” with “protagonists”. The dunlanders allied with Saruman were also humans. The black numenoreans and pirates allied with Sauron were also human, etc. the good guys are portrayed as displaying virtuous qualities in most human narratives.

[@midgetydeath]

Not exactly, those humans siding with Sauron were already entirely corrupted by him for many generations.

[@jacobsheehan5775]

​@@midgetydeath And generations more left to their own devices between his last fall and the war of the ring

[@wildfire9280]

@@midgetydeath The Dunlendings weren’t corrupted by him, but instead acted as throwaway allies for a single war because of less than favorable treatment of their lands by Númenoreans.

[@makaan1932]

"on the brink of extinction" except not really. There's lots of humans fighting for Sauron. He wants to dominate them, to rule over them, not kill them all.

[@AAZ-yu5ss]

Which is even worse, considering what’s happening to the men of Nurn (being enslaved by Orcs and forced into factory farming)

[@mortarion9813]

@@AAZ-yu5ss I mean to be fair, the humans who willingly fight for Sauron seem to have it pretty well compared to the men who got enslaved.

[@SQmaniac01]

Actually, the kings of Numenor became exactly the same kind of conquerors as Rome and others did... and Sauron played them like a cheap kazoo. It's part of the reason Numenor went the way of Atlantis, and why Sauron was able to gather allies among other human Kingdoms.

[@nukeariesdiana2476]

That make sense

[@AeneasGemini]

Except that was more to do with him using his corruption to manipulate them.

[@SQmaniac01]

​@@AeneasGemini I would say it's more that Sauron was a master of using his enemies' weaknesses against them, he used the Numenorians pride and fear of death to turn them against the Valar. but that may have been what you meant.

[@wildfire9280]

@@AeneasGemini Their fall was mostly self-engineered. They would not have been susceptible to such corruption without the lows they had already arrived at.

[@HumanityAsCode]

Isn't the Lord of the Rings mostly about how 95% of people can't resist the temptation of evil. Not just humans, but elves and dwarves too. (Orcs didn't really get to choose so, you know)

[@umegaalfa5900]

Not really. Sure, when is about the temptation of the power of the One ring, yeah that's straight forward that is bad. But what about other temptations on lower level, like temptation to steal (Marry and Pipin didn't resist too much on it in first movie when they stolen daily vegetables..), temptation of lying and manipulation, temptation of flesh (adultery) etc.

[@onespiker]

Aren't orcs fallen/deranged elves in lord of the rings.

[@milkmanlolzyo8658]

@@umegaalfa5900 That is the main theme of the series you have to admit though, that our own greed an temptation can be our downfall.

[@rhorybader4054]

The Elves were not corrupted by the power of the One Ring, but they were made INCREDIBLY cautious by the corruption they saw. The Dwarven Kings that held their rings for dwarves? Literally became the ancient Kings of Jerusalem, constantly lusting for more gold, for more power, for more of everything, until their kingdoms collapsed in upon themselves (the Dwarves of Middle-Earth HEAVILY parallel RL Hebrews), and many Elves and Men look down upon them for this.

[@dkbros1592]

In real world evil is build in feature but the society has hold it in by making rules sir

[@alexanderiles4428]

I think we only get a snapshot of the political set up in Middle Earth. Tolkien does suggest towards a more warlike past between the various human kingdoms, you just have to look at the wild men and their relationship with Rohan. There's plenty to suggest that the same Character exists there. (Sorry edited as I used dictation software)

[@LordVader1094]

Yeah Tolkien literally said as much. Men are corruptable in LotR, he just didn't heavily focus on it because there's plenty of reminders of that in real life that he didn't feel it was mecessary.

[@15oClock]

According to the lore, Rohan and Gondor have had an incredibly violent pasts. From civil wars to invasions, they've seen them all. Sauron is different, beyond any enemy their ancestors have ever faced save one, and that one is hard to outdo. It's not unreasonable to assume Theodan and Denethor would need a change of pants.

[@alexanderiles4428]

You also have to remember it's a story told from Frodo and the other Hobbits perspective (like Bilbo before in Hobbit) and it's supposed to tell a heroic quest, it's not great if your supposed to be showing the various factions of men coming together to fight the ultimate bad guy and the men of Gondor suddenly start racially abusing the Roharim and saying things about their horses and mother's- it takes away from the unity a bit!

[@westendlolo3313]

Bro forgot about the easterlings

[@f0rth3l0v30fchr15t]

@@15oClock Don't forget that Sauron was able to manipulate Denethor's Palantir, allowing him to see only that which would bring him despair.

[@arckmage5218]

I think sometimes we forget that there was only 1 Alexander, 1 Attila, 1 Genghis. Those are the equivalent of rampaging orc hordes. For the most part, humans have tried their best to be in peace with each other. And when a Darius, or an Augustus conquered a people. If he didn't wipe them all out, he integrated them into the kingdom. We enjoy the stories of knights going into battle all the time, we forget that most of the time they were just trying to get a decent meal and a quiet bed to sleep in.

[@manictiger]

Actually, knights were pretty well off and were usually used to destroy rival lords' peasants and villages, ergo the term, "feudalism".

[@lucascoval828]

Real savages.

[@liondovegm]

Humans don't want peace, we want stuff. We want to check all boxes in our Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Unfortunately, other people have the stuff we want/need. (And way back example, Homo sablis had nothing homosapiensapien needed and we couldn't even thrive in their environment, but we wiped em out anyway.)

[@PluvioZA]

@@manictiger "AKTULLY :B" By saying "knight" he was just using an example mate, he could have very well said "soldier" and it would have had the same connotation, you've made a straw man of this real point. The point being that, humans (generally) are simply fighting for peace, security and a meal on ones table. Fighting to live a comfortable enough life without constant suffering.

[@manictiger]

@@PluvioZA Soldiers do the same thing too, actually. _"The point being that, humans (generally) are simply fighting for peace."_ Well that's just plain false. There wouldn't be any fighting ever, if dark triad sociopaths didn't keep floating back up to the top.

[@Dark_Jaguar]

There's one obscure piece of lore with Tolkien, and that goes down to his general belief that history is a long slow path of degredation. Humans "back then" really were superior. Heck, ELVES used to be better. Silmarillion elves were basically powered by anime tropes having thunderous fights with the original dark lord while the land exploded around them. In middle earth, history is a battle not to restore what was lost- but to prevent losing any more with each passing generation. I don't personally share this viewpoint, but I do love the legendarium for what it is. But hey- we do have better humans mixed in with the terrible humans here in the real world and always have. For every ruthless conquerer there's a Mr. Rogers.

[@mrviking2mcall212]

The view that history is of a long, slow degradation is dreadfully wrong in my opinion too, but then again, Tolkien lived through the ultra-shitty first half of the 20th Century so I can’t really blame him. The heavy presence of grimdark and downer tones in modern fantasy is precisely why I made sure my fantasy world celebrates progress and achievements over one’s ancestors.

[@purplelibraryguy8729]

@@mrviking2mcall212 I'm not sure Tolkien believed that that was currently the case, except perhaps in a moral sense. But he was definitely drawing on old ideas that were very prevalent in a lot of places at pretty much any time before the Renaissance. The idea of a lost Golden Age used to be a really big thing before technology started advancing fast enough to notice. This is another sense in which The Lord of the Rings gives us actual premodern attitudes in the characters, in a way most fantasy since does not.

[@wildfire9280]

@@purplelibraryguy8729 I suppose Warhammer is a big one?

[@LedosKell]

King Perenolde of Alterac: "I'm going to betray humanity for green booty." The Alliance: *literally razes his kingdom to the ground in the middle of one of the greatest wars humanity has collectively faced* King Perenolde two minutes later: "I'm gonna do it again."

[@SkeinChug]

Once you go green, you'll know what we mean.

[@luizhenriquealves9755]

Wait, they razed the place and let him live?

[@rosethorn7255]

@@luizhenriquealves9755 Yes, because the rules of poltics remained... AKA Terenas wanted to basically legally take his lands.

[@LedosKell]

@@luizhenriquealves9755 They did. They put him in a prison in Dalaran, he escaped, and he allowed some Horde into the city to steal some magical artifacts. After that we don't know what happened to him, presumably he was executed.

[@unknownbenefactor8029]

Papa Greymane during second war : WE WILL BUILD A GREAT WALL.

[@withinmyscope]

It was a regular occurrence in tolkien's books that elves and humans would just go on regular campaigns against the Orcs, not necessarily reacting in defense

[@lawindacera7219]

So kinda like pest control?

[@lucascoval828]

@@lawindacera7219 Turbo Based.

[@DaDunge]

Yeah that's what Faramir was doing isn't it, hitting the forces of mordor to keep them down, it's just with a will like Sauron behind them the orcs are neigh unstoppable.

[@skalgrimfellaxe5796]

Indeed, the valleys of the Misty Mountains were often targeted for - what is in essence genocidal extermination campaigns, making it harder for the goblins to support their numbers and denying them any chance of real aggricultural advancement. There are several passages that allude to wars of extermination waged against orks and goblins. Trolls, dragons, drakes, giants and troll-men (not the ones from far Harad) were often hunted to extinction or by culling their populations, and several of these are in varying degree intelligent species. And alot of this wasn't as a response to attacks but "preemptive" or part of expansionist politics. Even the Elves would hunt especially goblins and orks with no mercy shown.

[@MahsaKaerra]

@@DaDunge If I recall, at some points in the history of Middle Earth both the Black Gate and Minas Morgul were garrisoned by soldiers from Gondor? Basically enabling the Kingdom to conduct incursions into Mordor as they wished free from the threat of retaliation.

[@juancarlosmartinez2876]

I'm surprised not enough people here mention the Continent of Geralt of Rivia/ The Witcher. A series whose sole premise is "what would happen if we mix Slavic mythology monsters and Tolkinian elves and dwarves with real world Vikings, Franks, Polish and the HRE?"

[@jeffbenton6183]

Wait, that's the setting?! That sounds awesome! I've got to play all the games now. Is the show worth watching?

[@GottHammer]

@@jeffbenton6183 show's 'ok'. Prefer the visuals + aesthetics of the games. IMHO, to better enjoy the show, it's probably best to watch it first before either reading the books, or playing the games. I do recommend the books, tho'...they're pretty good.

[@Kyla-Stormhazard]

@@jeffbenton6183 Also be warned. The first game didn't age well game play wise. It's rough until you get the hang of it.

[@lucascoval828]

Maybe I'll read these books. They sound interesting. The Show doesn't sound like your compelling description though.

[@juancarlosmartinez2876]

@@jeffbenton6183 The books are very original with some great characters, but IMO have pacing issues. The games are the preferred entry point of most people, but the problem with TW3 is that it is like getting introduced to the MCU with Avengers Infinity War: it spoils the majority of the story and you have to read the background of characters and setting. My advice is to watch TW1 in KZbin and play the other 2 (plus Thronebreaker is dope). The TV series is... correct. It's Netflix, they are botching the lore and characters. For example, one of the villains of the books is actually a republican who wants to make Niilfgard a democracy. Yeah, don't expect that in the series. The three are fine, but aren't exactly co-canon. Think of them as the Batman in the Dark Knight trilogy, the Arkham series and the DCAU. Same setting and characters, slightly different story.

[@Logan55689]

I thought this video was going to be about an actual argument that due to the superhuman strength and agility of fantasy humans, they weren’t actually humans. Like, how a human can get so strong from fighting weaker enemies, building up strength and proficiency with no upper limit. Oh well.

[@zeehero7280]

I dunno that makes them more human than actual humans. like, the human quality of rapid adaptation in a physical form! Much like how Dragon Ball Saiyans are better humans than the Dragon Ball Earthlings.

[@potatoheadpokemario1931]

Same

[@jjfajen]

Meanwhile in the Elder Scrolls you've got the Nords driving the snow elves to extinction as vengeance for the razing of a single city.

[@chaosvolt]

>humans aren't humans because they aren't acting like the Imperium of Man Well this seems like a spicy hot take to me.

[@chaosvolt]

@@IamOutOfNames Zoggin' 'umies muckin' about. Down 'ere wez all orks, even the 'umies.

[@The_Smiurgh]

Heresy

[@Kallosar]

You mean humans aren’t acting like they have always acted throughout history. Wars, genocide, and the will to conquer their neighbors and assert their dominance. Imagine if the Alliance of Lordaeron found the native americans in america instead of the spanish and later British. They probably would be allies. But in reality, and real life: exterminate anyone who doesn’t look like us 😂

[@DOSFS]

Everyone will act like that if those around humans want to kill all of humans. Especially if they are different than us.

[@ClayWar237]

It's true War is endemic to man

[@jacobdarling1524]

Putting Fereldan on this list and then mentioning a lack of bigotry as part of why they aren’t human… did you skip the whole alienage quest line?

[@shammydammy2610]

Exactly. Or the fall of the Dales.

[@levongevorgyan6789]

@@shammydammy2610 That one was on Orlais. They were the ones who did the Exalted Marches. At most the Ferelden just watched.

[@MandoWookie]

Yeah a major point of the Dragon Age mythos is that everyone is a bastard. Everybody is racist as hell against everybody else, until you have a world ending army of undead to deal with, and even then some people won't get with the program.

[@shammydammy2610]

@@levongevorgyan6789 Yeah, but it's another facet of the fantasy game humans are better than we are question... Ferelden, Orlais, Tevinter. They're all awful. I've played many of the games mentioned here as examples, and while I disagree across the board, I'd say that Thedas/DA is the worst of the ones I have encountered in game.

[@TheLordboki]

Humans rely way too much on trade with the Dwarves to bother exterminating them. Dwarves need humans, humans need dwarves. It's a symbiotic relationship. Plus they live underground so competition is lessened.

[@Entropic_Alloy]

It could be a product of external pressures. In Xenoblade Chronicles, Hom on Hom violence was almost non-existent because they were fighting against the Mechon for so long that any sort of infighting was not only frowned upon, but also self-destructive. So that sort of behavior just kinda left that culture.

[@marrqi7wini54]

Also the fact that there were probably only a few hundred/thousand homs left. They most definitely could not afford to fight each other. Otherwise, they would have definitely gone extinct.

[@Bobaseaworth]

Yeah but those fuckin southern homs wont wear their damn maskclothes!

[@henrykkeszenowicz4664]

Cyrus the Great was actually the closest real man to those fantasy people, he was a genuinely good and tolerant king who was greeted not as a conqueror but as liberator. But I'd totally love to see him defeating Mordor.

[@zacosner]

People forget just how Great Cyrus was. He’s literally the only non-Jew recognized as a “messiah” (not in the Christian sense) in the Hebrew Bible.

[@Gala-yp8nx]

He and Aragorn would have a lot in common.

[@Botchulism_asdf]

Persian pride for ever

[@skywillfindyou]

nah, that's just a myth

[@johnchao2422]

CYRUS THE OG

[@goblincookie5233]

I feel that too many authors have taken this kind of 'realism' on board. Every author seems to have a fairly consistent cross-cultural human nature for their characters they struggle to ever deviate from. In the Witcher novels humans are basically officious and self-absorbed, while in Westeros humans are basically all cynical and ruthless; while this definitely makes them less nice, it does not make them more realistic when everybody has those traits. It also fits poorly into most depicted in-world cultures, in the Witcher world Nilfgaard is basically the logical result of the basic character of human beings in that world but then they are not exactly weak, so it works somewhat. In Westeros on the other hand, only the Wildlings are really compatible with the character of Westeros characters and they aren't strong at all.

[@JamEngulfer]

I’d like to throw in an observation about Guild Wars 2 that I’ve heard before. The humans actually represent the role that elves have traditionally taken in fantasy worlds. They’re well established in the world with a deeper historical connection to the other races of the world. Instead, the Sylvari take the role of humans, new to the world, unfamiliar with how it works and seeking to forge a place of their own, even causing death and destruction to do so.

[@maxmogavero952]

Very well put! And to add to this, their early history was quite brutal and expansionistic. And their politics are full of isolationism and racism.

[@mak2-j6d]

@@cortezmaxtv kkkkk great joke!

[@carlosschwambach9213]

Gotta love how fantasy race discussions range from "elves, dwarves&etcetera are too humanlike to not be considered a human variant like neanderthal" to "fantasy humans are too nice to really be humans"

[@cioplasmmajic8327]

Keep in mind that contrast can be a powerful social force. For example, during the World Wars, many German Americans quickly gave up aspects of their old culture for a more "American" way of life. When humanity is fighting orcs and goblins or other brutal war loving groups, it's entirely possible that the humans would try to be more "civilized" in opposition.

[@_Muzolf]

They did not give up their culture or their names for that matter for a more american way of life, they gave it up for fear of ending up like the german colonists who came under brittish rule in africa, or later the japanese americans during WW2. It had less to do with wanting to be united, and more with simple base fear for ones life, and not wanting to end up in a work camp.

[@boobah5643]

@@_Muzolf Many gave up uniquely German customs so that they appeared more 'American,' yes. Although it must be noted that you can find many stories about how folks disowned their ancestral homes not because they were afraid of their fellow Americans but because they truly wanted nothing to do with that place causing trouble for their actual homes. Not that these are mutually exclusive or easily separated reasons. And the German case, especially, is helped because there's been Germantowns in the US since at least the Revolutionary War.

[@supremecaffeine2633]

@@_Muzolf Fear for your life? In American internment camps? Are you joking?

[@wildfire9280]

@@supremecaffeine2633 Why would that be a joke?

[@supremecaffeine2633]

@@wildfire9280 Because internment camps had the same mortality rate as the rest of the civilian population, at its worst.

[@mageofshadow]

My biggest problem with this type of thinking is that ignores the possibility for other fantasy races to be capable of achieving the same if not worse than what we've done, despite there being no reason for that to be the case.

[@robertfisher8359]

Incredibly poor argument. My friend sent me this video asking for my thoughts on it, so I'll try offering my short version of what I sent him... 1) You failed to make the connection of genocide and racism to better martial prowess/military capability. 2) "These more enlightened, kinder, more tolerant humans..." have you EVER looked at Warhammer Fantasy? You know humans were on both sides of the war going on in Middle Earth, right? "...that's a scenario which having the more savage and cruel elements of human nature on your side might not be a bad thing." Ok, find me the people in Middle Earth, in Warcraft, in Warhammer who are looking at the most malicious elements of a setting and parrot the joke from the last Doom game; the one that said demons weren't evil, but just morally challenged creatures. 3) You invoked the Franks, the Romans, the Assyrians, the Huns, and the Mongols. However, the root argument (racism and genocide makes humans better fighters) fails to align with these forces as well. Hell, in none of them was racial or religious bigotry even a dominate ideology. 4) There's 0 effort in actually analyzing fantasy humans and trying to determine if the humans actually have the qualities he mentions (both tolerance and bigotry). Tbf, that would involve taking each setting and dissecting it individually, which couldn't be covered in 1 video. Instead you disingenuously put them all into one basket. Again, I you to bring up the humans of Gondor who believed that not killing every orc that lives and show how their tolerance is dominant to where it leads to Gondor's near annihilation. Also look at how Warhammer Fantasy's warring main 2 factions are fundamentally having a religious war against each other. Counter-point: Most fantasy settings do involve a high stakes threat to humanity that calls for an outlook that is genocidal in all but name (see Warhamemr Fantasy, Middle Earth, Goblin Slayer, and more). Sometimes it's shown (Goblin Slayer), sometimes it's just discussed (Tolkein), but the "us vs them" attitude is more often than not build into the fundamentals of a fantasy setting/conflict and accepted with little issue.

[@lucascoval828]

When fake geeks try to get intellectual = This Video

[@massmurdertron51]

​@@lucascoval828shut up Incel ur not even human u can't call others fake geeks lmao

[@3ddesigns220]

People hate to acknowledge their darker side. Most wars cover it up with pretty sounding propaganda... But if you truly get to the root of most wars, the real cause is tribal.

[@thevoidlookspretty7079]

*in the void* Morgoth: “Sauron, who did you fail me?” Sauron: “It was like nothing I’ve ever seen, m’lord! There was this kid on a horse! He said I looked like the sunrise so he wanted to fight me! And when I said I wasn’t the sun… ooh, he got even angrier! My orcs didn’t stand a chance!”

[@rhorybader4054]

It kinda helps when LITERAL SATAN'S RIGHT HAND MAN is the source of much strife in the world to make humanity kinda work together a bit better once they're aware of the cause, y'know?

[@f0rth3l0v30fchr15t]

I'm just going to go ahead and point out that the army Saruman sent to Helm's Deep was designed to storm Helm's Deep, a firtress which would have been expected to be garrisoned by horse soldiers and farmers. If Saruman had been expecting to fight a pitched battle against Carolingians, he'd have raised and equipped an army to fight a pitched battle against Carolingians.

[@AAZ-yu5ss]

“But I want my ultra manly, TECH using Caucasian Humans to slaughter the ugly, subhuman magic hordes of inferior creatures?!!🤬” (but I agree, Saurons army would eviscerate the Romans, along with the rest of the ancient and medieval world, if he doesn’t just feel like bending their wills to his.)

[@mak2-j6d]

@@AAZ-yu5ss finally someone isn't kissing up the romans( the romans strong no doubt BUT they were not invincible)

[@Folomus]

At least in the case of WoW, the existence of the Light, an incredible source of power, creates a unique morality that would not survive in our world. Basically by being "kind", human society from WoW got an extreme power boost that probably compensated for the lack of ruthlessness in their society.

[@levongevorgyan6789]

Plus the humans in that universe are the descendants of literal perfect defenders of Azeroth. They ain't upright Monkeys, they're short fleshy Iron Vrykul

[@SkeinChug]

That's been reworked into being fanatical. The Light will serve anyone who believes in their cause enough. Basically Orks from 40k with a paint job.

[@jwagner4050]

WoW humans are almost unnaturally forgiving. As if a cosmic force of some sort keeps them from fighting any war with a certain faction to a defined and definite conclusion.

[@DrockByte42]

@@jwagner4050 That hasn't always been the case though. Just look at Anduin's father Varian. He wanted to kill all of the orcs and put an end to the Horde forever. He just didn't have the military might to actually do it. Some of the previous kings wanted to kill trolls just because they're trolls, and some others were more peaceful. Now you have King Anduin who sees the 'humanity' in the other races and prefers diplomacy over war. Especially since there are so many other threats out there that keep being discovered. Yeah there are times when the story challenges your suspension of disbelief, but in general I think it's fair enough.

[@ThePilot3332]

they also have robots and machines in WoW but humans are still living in shitty castles

[@Faxeable]

Yeah, I think you missed a very important thing to Tolkien's philosophy in the bigger picture of his work. In the history of Middle Earth there are pretty savage human beings, the worst were corrupted by power (just like in our world) through Morgoth's and Sauron's influence. Some even sided with the baddies for power (like Easterlings, Haradrim and the corsair fleets. One of Tolkien's most important themes, however, was that evil will eventuallly destroy itself for greed and hunger for power, even in the "good" people (see Denethor), and good will subsequently succeed.

[@redthree603]

I can confirm that I have neither killed anyone nor wished to wage war on someone for looking different from me. I also have not expressed the desire to kill, maim, or brutalize anyone or anything. I guess I'm not a human! Thanks for helping me figure that out, Templin Institute!

[@stubbornspaceman7201]

The logic of a human supremest am I right

[@osedebame3522]

I disagree with the notion that being more backwards would make them stronger. If humans in fantasy were more fanatical and xenophobic, they'd just be quicker to get themselves info a fight they can't win the same way many regimes of old have.

[@Kuhmuhnistische_Partei]

Yeah. Or it wouldn't make any difference at all. I mean, if a world is currently invaded by orcs it doesn't matter how aggressive you are. You will fight them. Because they will come to you. It doesn't make your army stronger if they all hate orcs more.

[@BigsZone]

Hatred is a +10 to Weaponskill tests. Very important if you primarily fight in melee.

[@heitorpedrodegodoi5646]

Warhammer humans in a nutshell.

[@wjzav1971]

I mean, that's the whole concept of the Mirror Universe in Star Trek. If humans in the Star Trek universe were militaristic, aggressive and xenophobic, they would wipe the floor with all the Romulans, Klingons, Vulcans, Cardassians, etc.

[@shan9usfc]

OBJECTION! Humans in Ferelden(DA:O) have managed to exterminate the majority of elven populations to the point where they lived in alienages. In DA:I, we see the human nations as a major power next to the Qunari, who's just as ruthless as them. The old Nords of Skyrim and probably some guys from Thamriel managed to exterminate a lot of elves. We're talking peak Ysgramor here. He really hates them. Then there's the world of Witcher, their war with beings from the otherworld became so intense that most of them became a stuff of legend. Everything in Geralt's world slowly became a mirror of the high medieval ages similar to ours because of how a lot of things behave normally (less magic and stuff). Human nations in this setting may still encounter them but they're nothing more but obstacles and didn't stop them from getting supremacy.

[@Sahsa590]

Fantasy is just that, fantasy. This is a genre in which we dream and come up with the impossible so it is little wonder to me that in these worlds we invent we present ourselves as our BEST selves as who we want to be as opposed to who we are and I think that's good.

[@Rawnblade13]

Exactly this.

[@Qardo]

If anyone wants to rain on my fantasy of creating a near perfect human race. With little flaws and no strife among the population of humans. *rather posh dreadful voice* Then, I guess they are the "Impure Ones" or.....the Other Races.......... Which makes me sound like a "Racist"....and really. Yeah? And? It is fantasy. As there is some fucker out there who hates Humans. So why can I not hate them back? Young Race for life! Basically, is roughly 80 years without augments of magical or technological...sooo...short life but I'll make it count!

[@pedrovascodeoliveiraveriss6293]

This might be what many of us ASPIRE to be, but every Human exactly BEING like this? VERY UNREALISTIC.

[@luizy6701]

I've seen the opposite, humans being described as the worst. At the end of the day, I think fantasy is just for that, to create impossible world that stimulates the imagination of people. That's the best part of it for me

[@azca.]

@@luizy6701 This should be top comment

[@proof036]

Or it could just be that they have a completely different culture and history compared to the Orcs that we are. Also, in defence of Gondor and Rohan: The reason why both nations were at the brink of defeat was that they were weakened and corrupted by either outer influence, or through incompetent leadership.

[@MrRemicas]

Well, in the books Denethor is extremely competent, but worn down by his mind battles with Sauron though the Palantir, and overwhelmed by the death of his sons. Though for Gondor in general, they were mostly fighting a losing war of attrition for a millenia before Sauron stopped playing and sent a massive army (and he had many more in reserve or sent elsewhere). Can't really throw campaigns of extermination when you're the one besieged on all side.

[@custink22]

@@MrRemicas also, Theoden was incredibly competent, but had been worn down by the worm and saruman, and by his sons death. Denethor was also weakened by Boromirs death, and his fragile psyche finally snapped by Faramirs near death. Both had been excellent leaders, and Theoden recovered to be an excellent leader again until his death.

[@gokbay3057]

Gondor has had brutal civil wars and Rohirrim hunted Dunlanders for sport. To say that LOTR humans lack the more " "savage" or "brutal" qualities of humanity is to be wrong.

[@Kalebfenoir]

I joke regularly with my friends that the 'humans' in the Monster Hunter series could be mistaken for Astartes, or Super Soldiers if they went anywhere else. These are people who, though human sized, can basically fist-fight T-Rexes into submission, tank energy blasts and all kinds of elemental damage, jump from a skyscraper height jump without a shoot, hero-landing it on impact and walk away without even muscle strain....and then go home for a 19 course dinner of some of the largest dishes I've ever seen. Also if you think the humans of Kryta are weaker, less savage, less cruel than 'normal' humans... ya really need to play the game more. They regularly exterminate entire enclaves of centaurs, clans of Skritt that are trying to eke out an existence, and one of their oldest nations had forced the 'local' population of Charr -- 650lbs clawed, fanged, megapredator sentients -- out of their homelands and built a wall to keep them out. At least, until the Charr basically nuked that nation. And that's not counting the horrors of the White Mantle, Separatists, and any number of tinpot dictators that always rise up to try and carve out their kingdoms from what's left.

[@Killua2001]

Wars of "extermination" were pretty rare in human history. Very seldom was it profitable to "exterminate" people you want to be able to tax. In fact 'large scale warfare' has more often than not been more about logistics than "hardened battle loving soldiers". The Romans didn't win so often because they were inherently 'better' or 'stronger' as individual humans than the people they were fighting. But they almost always were way better supplied. If you're fighting an adversary who doesn't need food, water, or sleep? Forget "pitched battles", how the hell would humans be expected to go out and attack an enemy that could at any moment outflank them and hit their supplies. Supplies that, being human, they need. Since 'magic' so often satisfies logistical issues, thinking too deeply about human warfare in fantasy settings is probably gonna send you down a very different rabbit hole from the one the creator/author intended.

[@ThingsStuffington]

Yeah, this is less based on actual human history and more just a sort of vague modern idea of what human history was like.

[@Syberbat808]

Yeah if magic SOLVES issues of logistics and supplies, why go to war?

[@zhangeldy4097]

You have it backwards. It is highly unprofitable to attempt to tax people who will revolt every decade once you took over. Romans specifically learned it the hard way. Almost every other major empire until Renaissance were based on underlying cause be it religious, cultural, or historical differences which made peaceful coexistence impossible on a large enough scale. I've studied in both High Schools and Universities on both Western and Eastern hemisphere in highly respectable schools and colleges. Let me tell you, Western history is exceptionally redacted compared to Eastern. Sure Cortez bringing Small Pox killed 95% of the local aborigines and USA had The Trail of Tears which was viewed as *the* worst of genocides as Dr.O'Donnell taught us, but it was mere displacement of people. I am from Kazakhstan, and we didn't have a single year of history where we didn't cover at least two total genocides committed by us or our neighbors. I am talking hunting refugee kids and mothers with dogs across a thousand-mile steppe during the aftermath Kazakh-Dzungar Wars, I am talking Imperial China vanishing entire regions of revolting people like Sogdians, I am talking of going through entire genealogical trees of your own populous to exterminate any possible semblance of distant ancestry, I am talking of genocides so total and so complete they kind of faded from memory because there simply aren't any people left to complain or demand reparations. And you won't find them unless you look for them specifically. Seriously, you don't hear of most successful genocides because they were so thorough. That is what I think the author of this video is talking about. In a world where goblins existed, Holy Crusades would be committed at any given point by the dozens 'just because' of their different looks and cruder language as opportunistic and charismatic people ride the wave of hatred and intolerance to profit on expansion. Add in the fact that goblins are generally homicidal and rapists and it's an instant 'kill' button for humanity of our world who would exterminate those creatures for perceived threats and slights. There is a reason we are the only 'homo' genus left on the planet even thou there was more than a dozen at one time. Because despite being able to peacefully communicate and even REPRODUCE we still viewed such tiny differences as such irrevocable that we genocided our way into their total extinction bar those that already intermixed with Homo sapiens.

[@ArixOdragc]

A big problem is in trying to boil down humanity - real world or fantasy - to one or two simple personality traits. You can't say "Humans are X", because humanity isn't a monolithic mass, it's a collection of individuals with their own thoughts, feelings and desires. Trying to boil it all down to one or two traits is completely fruitless. The same should be true of any other race. Races shouldn't be a monolith, they should be a society of individuals. They can lean certain ways due to environmental factors sure, but not to the extent that you can look at any given orc or lizardfolk or whatever and know instantly that they'll be just like all the others. Just once, I'd like to see the traditional "melting pot" fantasy kingdom where a whole bunch of races all live and work together, but the royal family just so happen to be minotaurs. because why not?

[@funnelingspace9268]

@@walbergverissimo2815 not really, the minotaur was basically a bastard and was thrown into some maze/cave since he was a little calf-boy

[@ArixOdragc]

​@@walbergverissimo2815 First, a fantasy version of a mythological being doesn't have to match 1 to 1 with its inspiration. The original minotaur was one-of-a-kind as well, doesn't mean every fantasy setting that uses minotaurs has to have them be one of a kind. Second, if you do want to bring it closer to its mythological roots, then isn't the fact that the original minotaur was a noble all the more reason to have noble minotaurs? Finally, I was just using minotaurs as an example. Replace it with any other random fantasy creature, the point is the same.

[@ArixOdragc]

@@walbergverissimo2815 Fair point.

[@Ivashanko]

Other species aren't different just because of 'environmental factors'. Orcs would mostly be different from humans due to genetic factors. There would still be a range, but it is possible that a species could evolve that are genetically incapable of long term peace, especially if that species evolved because of an outside (and magical) guiding force.

[@spinosaurusstriker]

I disagree, genétic factors would imply that some species lean towards certain attitudes that we would paint as bad or good, it depends.

[@HalfTangible]

For Middle Earth, the Romans or whoever would probably have tried to unlock the secrets of the One Ring, and thus doom themselves to Sauron's service. He's a clever and sly bastard who has usurped far more noble and less power-hungry individuals than, say, Caesar. Magic tends to uproot any and all ideas of what would and wouldn't work.

[@tba113]

I guess it depends on the Roman in question. A guy like Cincinnatus, for instance, was never really interested in power at all, and the leaders facing Hannibal where they fought (and lost) battle after battle to buy time might well have concluded that Rome needed to win or lose on its own merits, not through calling on outside intervention, supernatural or otherwise. Though you're right in the general case: they would be the exception. Most people in general, Roman or not, would certainly fall prey to the Ring's whispers. For my money, the dangerous temptation of power - even with the noblest intentions - was Tolkien's biggest insight.

[@cbtenthusiast7133]

numenor backstory why do you think the ring bearer is a hobbit

[@historyfan6684]

@@tba113 Cincinnatus was absolutely one of the greatest figures in Roman history. "Y'all can keep all this power I'm going back to my farm"

[@gustavoritter7321]

Sauron's "tricks" work inside the narrative but I really doubt it would work on the real world.

[@cbtenthusiast7133]

@@gustavoritter7321 IDK people can be greedy irrationals selfish assholes at times i can total see some petty tyrant selling his soul to satan/morgoth for a few extra years of wealth and power.

[@brokensky2378]

Oh yes, the Numenoreans that are 8 foot tall and clad in full heavy armor, able to slaughter legions of orcs, are totally just normal humans. Or the Rohirrim riders who can evoke an image of Orome, with the ability to murder people with his barehands. Yes, these are normal humans.

[@erikeidsmoe6165]

Aye Tolkien took no liberties whatsoever in creating his humans All joking aside J.R.R. Tolkien is my favorite author

[@LordVader1094]

Not like humans are supposed to be more mythic in the older ages of the world or anything

[@Thought_Processing_]

Mis read the first part as '8 foot tall chads in full heavy armour

[@HaloForgeUltra]

Yes, there was a famous man that spent 5 years killing mercenaries as revenge for the death of his wife before dying from his injuries. He had never lost a fight even when outnumbered.

[@CucumberSadness]

Are you telling me you can't do this stuff?

[@UGNAvalon]

Alternate title: “Medieval Fantasy Isn’t -Grimdark- Realistically *_Medieval_* Enough”.

[@karlfranzemperorofmandefil5547]

Laughs in Warhammer

[@AAZ-yu5ss]

“If 12 year old girls aren’t regularly r%ped to death by their relatives for our “enjoyment”, it isn’t historically accurate!😡🤬” (personally I’m tired of the more cynical, militaristic fantasies, I wanna see some more optimistic, slice of life fantasies, were people are just living their lives with magic and other weird creatures.)

[@UGNAvalon]

@@AAZ-yu5ss Definitely agree. At the very least, i'd want to see more of said "simple pleasures" moments in grimdark fantasy, in order to make said grimdark life more bearable to be in (not only for the characters within, but also for the audience watching).

[@vgmaster9]

@@AAZ-yu5ss Doesn't have humans, but My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic is a good example of slice of life fantasy.

[@mikhaelgribkov4117]

@@vgmaster9 and even it has racism.

[@StarShadowPrimal]

Maybe someone already mentioned it, but regarding why the 'good' races hadn't just wiped out the bad ones, the simple reality is that orcs are in some ways more like forces of nature, and you might as well ask why our ancestors didn't wipe out rats or mosquitos, since no matter how many we kill, they can disappear into places where we can hardly follow and replenish their numbers. I know that if I just won a massive land battle on the surface and forced orcs to retreat into mountain caves, I wouldn't be thrilled to chase them into dark underground tunnels where they could easily kill and eat me. It would be easy to justify the risk of a few raids and maybe one big battle every few generations. Middle Earth humans also aren't nearly as generally nice as the video implied, and there were some insanely brutal things happening between members of the same race - they just weren't the focus of LOTR or the Hobbit. The Kinstrife between the elves was literally a bunch of the most heroic "good guy" elves going for revenge against Morgoth, and deciding to brutally wipe out another group of elves to steal their rides. The following war included lots of betrayals of other human, elven, and dwarven groups for various reasons. Then we have the humans of Numenor (the "best" of humanity) murdering and sacrificing each other, colonizing and conquering all over Middle Earth, and declaring war on the elves and Valar out of jealousy. Discussing Rohan, the implications of Saruman's speech to the Dunlendings/Hill-men is that they are effectively held as an oppressed lower class by Rohan, and finally, what humans would Rohan actually need to fight? They are friendly with Gondor to their south and east, and previously with Saruman to the northeast, so other than some pirates on the western coast and the Dunlendings in the north, there's basically no one other than orcs in the mountains to fight. There are really just the two isolated human realms to the West of Mordor, and plenty of empty plains and forests for expansion, so neither of them seem to have the kind of population pressures that would force them to do something suicidal like invading magical forests or getting horsemen to dismount and fight in mountain caves to hunt goblins. Rohan is separated from the Shire by hundreds if not a thousand miles and almost no one knows it even exists, Dale is even further, and anywhere else with humans involves going around Mordor, so forget that. There will always be some conflicts between people, but societies always try to define an outsider, and that's going to be a lot easier if you have an entirely different species showing up to murder you every few decades, as well as an actual evil demon dark lord running the hellscape nation next door. If you don't have that kind of threat, society will pick something like a person's language or accent, skin color, or hair color and declare them to be the outsider. If those kinds of divisions start to fade, someone will make up a new way to define themselves and exclude others, and then declare that anyone who doesn't accept or understand the new division is an oppressor and the real enemy.

[@MapleLeaf2501]

Rohan is also on good terms with Gondor because the proto-Rohirrim came to the aide of Gondor in a war to turn the tide (which was repeated again at The Battle of the Pelennor Fields), they were gifted that land to rule as long as they maintained friendly relations (it also worked in Gondor's favour as their Northern lands were basically lost, and lessened logistical concerns, why waste dwindling resources on a bunch of land that isn't nearly as occupied while also getting a new buffer state between you and potential hostile states?).

[@francesco8000]

Mh....not your strongest argument. The entire premise is that all humans and all cultures are basically the same when dealing with violence and aggression and that they are all equally good at crushing people with their military. I'm not saying that fantasy is right, honestly humans are among the weakest races in most fantasy universes, and authors usually fails to represent how magic would completely change warfare (is so weird to think that Youjo Senki is among the best in this) but the idea that every kingdom would be an extremely militaristic state is just not believable. Even in our world we had states that basically ignored war for centuries while every other country around them was busy killing each other. Edit: i just realized that Switzerland itself sound like a fantasy concept...a kingdom in the mountains that has a past as one of the strongest military in the continent but then just stopped engaging in warfare and has lived in peace for centuries.

[@BasicLib]

Because no one wants to exterminate them. If let’s say the NATO Hegemonic coalition decided the Swiss are a threat in their center that doesn’t deserve to exist, the Swiss would be wiped out Remember Switzerland isn’t neutral cause they’re so awesome, they’re neutral cause their last military engagement they got absolutely annihilated by the French who destroyed their way of life up to that point. It’s the same reason Japan seems so docile today. The Swiss know should they fuck up and piss off one of their great power neighbors or worse yet the superpower suzerain of said neighbors they’d be in for a bad time. People often misconstrue Switzerlands neutrality as being from a position of strength. Rather it is something far more sane on their part, a recognition that they are in fact very weak and they only way to enjoy their quality of life is to just not get very political and risk pissing off someone they should and be dragged back into the dark 18th century. And also fortify the fuck out of their mountain so who ever wants to attack them only has to options 1) Don’t do it. 2) Exterminate them, don’t even bother to conquer or occupy.

[@kjj26k]

And they achieve this with countless underground fortresses, and vast buried vaults of gold and wealth, that they use to make deals with anyone and everyone, making an invasion upon them so utterly unprofitable...

[@Chaydex]

Simple explanation, they are idealized version of our world, it's not that they aren't human but more or less something we should strive towards

[@getfreur2458]

So a species that is always in danger of extinction like Dunedain and humans from stormwind? No thanks.

[@linkersjacken8032]

@@getfreur2458 true but hey aleast the entire humanity join together to fight a common enemy and having a shining moment. That's a good imagination to dream about.

[@the_furry_inside_your_walls639]

@@getfreur2458 Or a species that is even worse than what we are, like the Imperium of Man or the humans of the Witcher universe? Nah, I'd rather not.

[@WilliamBrayton]

To be fair in Guild Wars 2's case, the Charr and Kingdom of Ascalon basically threw nukes at eachother. Ascalon blowing itself up to forever violently haunt the Charr's efforts to resettle the former kingdom's land and a lot of the other Human nations have either vanished or just become vicious slave state puppets. Kryta is the only one that stands they simply don't have the manpower or numbers to deal with additional wars, especially since they're already in a stalemate. Its that humans aren't vicious in Guild Wars 2, its that politically, economically and diplomatically, that viciousness would probably just lead to the end of Humans have a singular kingdom to respond to. And there is historical precedent for this, a great power collapsing in on itself or being forced to give up its mantle of superpower.

[@lorddenalian]

Indeed. Glad to see more GW lore.

[@StergiosMekras]

And let's not forget that Ascalon originally belonged to the Charr. The humans didn't claim it by asking nicely.

[@derpherp2360]

@@StergiosMekras this, the charr werent the antagonists in that war. humanity was thereby fulfilling the whole "murder monkey" bit this whole vid claimed one of their examples lacked. bit let down by the sloppy research on it.

[@Lukos0036]

A 3 way war didn't help things ether. And humans had been at war with Charr for almost 300 years before the ceasefires were signed. No nation on Earth could maintain hostilities for that long while at a numerical and technological disadvantage so I think Kryta availed it's self about as well as it could. Considering that on one side they had to face cannons rifles and tanks the size of houses, and on the other constant centaur raids and zombie incursions.

[@the_furry_inside_your_walls639]

There's also the fact that the humans that founded Ascalon slaughtered the charr that were already living there, so humans being "peaceful" in Guild Wars is very, very, VERY FAR from the case. Let's not even forget that there are human separatists, as well as charr renegades, trying to thwart any peace attempts between Kryta and the Legions, wanting to refuel the human-charr war because they're too stubborn and spiteful to let the past be the past. Kryta's aim for peace isn't some unatural fantasy trait. It's literally the result of a dying species trying to adapt and change its ways in order to survive, and the charr legions are willing to let bygones be bygones since they've already taken back Ascalon, and they now have to deal with the restless Ascalonian ghosts, Flame Legion loyalists, and the separatists and renegades in order to care enough to want to fight another war with all of humanity. Simply put, Kryta can't afford another war with the charr, and the charr legions are so exhausted from the previous war that they'd rather just make peace wherever they can, if they can.

[@rorythered1936]

TL:DR - When there are different species to other, it is easier to achieve harmony within & between Human cultures. - If you analyse them in context of the story, Rohan are metal as all hell. Exactly what you should expect from horse-vikings. I think there's two points here which are relevant to go into. Firstly, from an anthropological perspective, humans typically operate by exhibiting in-group and out-group thinking. When there is an external group to represent the 'other', humans are more likely to put aside their differences within the in-group and band together. We don't have another sentient species to fill that role in our world, so that's one reason why we see (though does not excuse) xenophobia and prejudice. In Middle Earth, there are Dwarfs, Elves, Orcs etc to push into the out-group, so it would matter less what the social and cultural differences between a Rohirrim and Gondorian are, they're both at least men. Especially when some of these out-groups such as the Orcs show hostility, these differences would feel less significant. This external focus on another sentient species, which also poses an existential threat, does at least suggest a reason why there's less evidence of internal prejudices. And this doesn't even mean that other Humans can't be placed within the out-group, refer to the Harad and Easterlings; due to their religious and political affiliation to Morgoth and Sauron they can be othered. In fact, they're completely dehuminsed within the text with the exception of Faramir (the best boy) humanising and empathising with a fallen Harad soldier. Not sure if this scene is also in the books, I'm overdue for a re-read. You could even say this is supported by looking at Westeros, where there is no (known/believed by the main politicial players) existential threat to band together against. Thus, intra-human politicking and power struggles occure within the human subcultures of Westeros. The second part of this, which I'll again focus on Middle Earth, is the context of when these stories are occuring, which impacts military capability, force projection and capacity for empire building. In Rohan, the absolute monarchy has been made almost completely ineffectual until midpoint of the Two Towers, due to the bewitching of Theoden, and the machinations of his advisor and Saruman double agent, Wormtongue, ensuring any effective military response from the Eorlingas is impossible. Efforts to rectify this situation from Theodred and Eomer are curtailed by Saruman through a killing (possibly orchestrated through Wormtongue's intelligence) of the former and exile of the latter. Then you also must view the nature of geography playing into the unfolding situation. With Saruman's betrayal, the buffer Isengard provided to protect Rohan's western border becomes a threat. This combined with the knee-capping of a central response from Edoras is why the unmilitirasied and vulnerable Westfold falls so easily to Isengard aggression. We also see that the situation here, while dire begins to turn around rapidly after the Fellowship intervenes and Gandalf breaks Saruman's spell. Wormtongue is cast out and Theoden evacuates his civilain population to a known safe haven (even if this decision is imperfect it still reflects a return to strategic thinking from Rohan's leadership) as it is understood that Isengard has rapidly capitalised on Rohan's designed weekesses, and is poised to strike. Keep in mind as well, all authority is derived from Theoden as the absolute monarch, and in this period he is making every effort to lead his people through an unpreccidented crisis while mourning the death of his son and heir. Imperfect decisions will be made here and that is reflected in Theoden's unwillingness to call Gondor for aid. Despite this, and the Hornburg being significantly undermaned to repel a 10,000 Urak assault, the citidel withstands the seige for a night, albiet with significant casualties. In tandem to this, immediate effort is made by Gandalf to bring Eomer and his estimated 2,000 strong paramilitary band of cavalry back into the fold. This is completed in a mear 5 days, which given the size of Rohan, is a logistical marvel which few real-world armies could acomplish. With subtle magic on the part of Gandalf and a rallying cavalry charge, Eomer's band is able to lift the siege of Helms Deep, completely routing Isengard's armies. Considering this was acheived through a frontal assault on a tight pike formation, this is nothing short of a tactical miracle for Rohan. The breaking of fighting Uraki in such a manner would require a savage and sustained strike of incredible ferocity as these are creatures engineered to not know pain, fear or death, who had been promised manflesh. It would take a martial prowess and real savagry for man to route such a foe. After their victory at Helms Deep, Rohan continues to muster military might and not only consolidate it's position, but project force into Gondor to aid their allies in the siege of Minas Tirith. Even with Theoden mustering a force less than half the size he had hoped for the Gondor expedition, and Aragorn's skepticism, the fighting spirit and savagery of the Eorlingas at the Pelenor Fields is decisive, breaking the lines of Mordor. This is achieved against a force over 10 times the size of Rohan's, again demonstrating that there is absolutely no shortage of fighting spirit within the Rohirrim culture. This predilection toward a warrior culture is reinforced just prior to the battle as the Rohirrim are first roused by their king's speech, speaking of blood, ruin and death. In fact at this point, the 6,000 strong force chants "Death" as they charge their foe, overtly exhibiting a bloodlust and warrior mentality needed to do battle with Orcs. The second factor here is that as the cavalry closes on Mordor, Theoden is directly observed as standing brilliantly on his steed, with no other rider able to match his pace. He is reported as appearing as one of his warrior ancestors, men fabled for their battle prowess. Inspiring his fighting force further. At this point, the battle of the Pelenor Field would have been won, Mordor's Orcs could not withstand the shock tactics from Rohan. However, Harad reinforcements arrived with Mumukil monstrous cavalry to counter Rohan's horsemen. Even so, the tenacity and quickly evolving tactics of the Eorlingas was poised to break the Harad also, albiet with heavy casualties. It took the direct intervention and terror tactics from the Witch King of Angmar slaying Theoden to break Rohan. Even in this moment, the fighting spirit of Theoden's neice, Eowyn and her Hobbit companion Merry did not break, and they managed to slay the Witch King even while he wore and was empowered by a cursed rung of power. From this point it is understood that Eomer rallied forces long enough for Arogorn's army of the dead to enter the theatre of combat, securing victory over Mordor and it's client states. For these reasons that the notion of Rohan being a less militarily powerful state, or possessing a cultural aversion to warfare is unfounded. Given the oportunity to organise and muster arms, they have proven in multiple theatres to overpower numerically superior foes, and demonstrate logistical and tactical manoeuvres which would make them a threat even in real world contexts. Additionally, while refined by their cultural iconography, they have demonstrated on multiple occasions, combat savagery so profound that it may break the will of Orcs. Creatures which were originally created by Morgoth specifically to be a savage and brutal, of Eur Iluvatar's creation. I was also going to analyse Gondor's colonial and expansionist culture, which even has instances of genocide. All originating from their Numenorean heritage, and restablished under King Elessar. But this has gotten way longer than I planned already. Hope you enjoyed the read.

[@gokbay3057]

Not to forget the idea that people of Rohan being "better" than historical people is also unfounded. They literally hunted Dunlanders for sport. So not only the assertion that they are less militaristic is wrong, as you pointed out, the assertion on them not having the bad qualities of humans wrong as well.

[@asc4tree344]

Can't blame Tolkien though, since he was literally sitting in a trench at the front lines in WWl when he started laying the ground work for Lord of the Rings. He def probly had a enough of our/real world humans. lol

[@The_Smiurgh]

True

[@dynamicworlds1]

And then saw his son shipped off to fight WW2 after the "Great War" which was supposed to end all wars just sewed the fields for another conflict.

[@rexlumontad5644]

In Warcraft lore, the humans of Azeroth are descendants of the barbaric half-giant Vrykul of Northrend, their progenitors. The Vrykul used to be a race of sentient metallic beings created by the Titans until the Curse of the Flesh afflicted them to lose their metal forms and gain flesh and blood bodies.

[@Gingerninja800]

specifically they were the "sickly" offspring that the king of the vrykrul ordered killed, but the mothers didn't want to and hid them and whatnot

[@temporary67315]

So Humans are technically giants due to being descended from Vrykul the same way Orcs were descended from the Ogres, who were descended from Ogronn, who also finally descended from Gronn. That means both species are just small giants!

[@vossrothgar]

@@temporary67315 So basically there's actually a Lore reason that all the shop keepers look like they spend all their off time pumping 'roids' at the gym. It wasn't just reusing the same character models for NPCs!!

[@governorofwesttaiwan4865]

Yeah this is why the humans of Azeroth just look so big.

[@lucascoval828]

@@governorofwesttaiwan4865 I thought it was just purely art-direction. That's a cool tidbit. Reminds of me of the "humans" in Gears of War.

[@natzo89]

I think the kingdoms of the Witcher and Dragon Age would be more like what we would do. Using magic AND being militaristic. I always thought that having magic would make life simpler for many, at least in general. Easier construction, medicine, etc. Maybe this helps reduce strain on some aspects of society that would push people to be more militaristic. Then again, if WE had magic we would make magic nukes, so eh. Maybe it depends on the period of development it's discovered. And if there are demons and such, maybe people would be more united and chivalrous?

[@Vitalis94]

One thing that always bothered me is how the sorcerers, and magic users in general, are misplaced in fantasy settings. See, in a world where magic was present even before humans created the first civilizations, the magic users would totally dominate the political landscape. The magic users would be like god-emperors, no one can even challenge their power. They would be the kings, not just their advisors or doing their own thing. No, mages would be the first to rule early civilizations. In a magical world, they would be the first pharaos, and their rule would last... forever, potentially.

[@kovobanga1559]

Kinda agree at this point. But I think it more depends on the role, that humanity plays in comparison of other creations. Like if there were no thinking species other then humans, they would still be almost the same side as in our world. However on the other side, when there are a lot of other civilisations we would be highly affected by their presence. It just depends on a lot of circumstances.

[@TheSuperRatt]

Demons aren't even real, but humans have and do believe they are, and use that as justification to torture, murder, and or disenfranchise people with different beliefs (political and religious), or that they just don't like. Imagine how much worse it'd be if demons actually existed.

[@DetectiveLance]

@@Vitalis94 They'd also start learning quickly how MAYBE it's not the best place to be after the first few 'god kings' got their heads taken off or poisoned by the normal people serving them and it's better to be high in the power structure but not be its face. IE, the right hand advisor. Trust me, eventually people learn that the throne comes with all kinds of problems as well as benefits, it's better to be just close to it.

[@jemm113]

@@TheSuperRatt if they existed there’d be concrete evidence to prove or refute accusations of such. Doesn’t mean humans wouldn’t still use such accusations for their own selfish, zealous, or dictatorial reasons but there’d be precedence set.

[@thetyler101]

Odd idea but... you know how there are good elves and evil elves? Are the fantasy humans more good or are we just more evil? Are we the dark humans? Did we get banished to this magicless wasteland for our crimes?

[@The_Smiurgh]

Hol up

[@kjj26k]

Sometimes life on Earth does feel like a damnation. But, that's always felt in regards to the actions of humans...the planet itself was dope.

[@randumpotato]

This just in: The Templin Institute discovers the fact that different societies behave differently. They’re still human my guy. There have been tons of peaceful, non-bigoted human societies in the real world. They just tend to get wiped out by their more aggressive neighbors. Please read up more on history.

[@CitanulsPumpkin]

There are no bathrooms in 90% of these fictional worlds so the humans of those worlds have evolved to fully process 100% of all the nutrients and matter they consume. They also don't have to worry about disease from waste disposal issues. Thus they effectively have super powers.

[@echoecho3155]

I thought I was in for the completely banal "fantasy humans aren't real humans because they didn't evolve/aren't on earth" take, but instead it was the much dumber "fantasy aren't humans because they aren't as savage and cruel as real humans" take - the kind that only a person who describes himself as "enlightened by his own intelligence" can make. Templin Institute never ceases to surprise and disappoint me.

[@Borealis-Rainbow]

Its been over a year since I stopped watching templing regularly and can't help but agree, I feel I disagree with a lot of the takes going on... Its a shame I used to like it.

[@tainorex1477]

Simultaneously missing the point of fantasy AND ignoring how boring it would be if all the other races were wiped out by fanatical humans. It would just be earth after that

[@wachyfanning]

Not really the point of fantasy to be logically inconsistent, though. I think he's missing the fact that these other races would be just as militaristic and violent as humans, if not more.

[@lv1543]

@@wachyfanning what if we did?

[@milanmericskay8003]

Earth is dope tho

[@tainorex1477]

Earth do be dope, but fantasy is our opportunity to quite literally fantasize about a better way for mankind to be. It's the express reason why Tolkien writes the way he does- he new exactly how humans are, but he specifically wrote about humans and other being better cause WW1 was that traumatizing

[@AAZ-yu5ss]

“But I want my macho, pseudo fascist Human supremacy fantasy to be THE only fantasy their is!😡” (it’s weird how often fictional human fans (Warhammer 40k Imperium and elder scrolls Nord ones in particular) glorify violence and genocide as the only solution.)

[@ThePuppyTurtle]

I think you're too misanthropic. Immediate attempts at extermination are not the most common outcome of two cultures meeting. Incidents like those feel more common than they are because they're dramatic and memorable, but even in the middle ages, those violent conflicts punctuated a relatively peaceful status quo. When wars break out, it's usually because there's material gain to be had or someone's power is being threatened.

[@Heisen2420]

Agreed.

[@bread1958]

It's not two cultures meeting, it's two different types of sentient creature. Where are the other hominids?

[@ThePuppyTurtle]

@@bread1958 They all eventually went extinct, at least partly due to resource wars like the ones I described, but none of them faced an immediate conscious effort at extermination on first contact with anatomically modern humans. Like, we know that anatomically modern humans and Neanderthals had actual children together. That seems very strange if the human relationship with them had been a simple matter of instant extermination crusade. I see no reason to think humans would be incapable of tolerating another sentient species if it did not compete for the same environmental niche.

[@andrewgilbertson5672]

I would concur.

[@zefft.f4010]

But there is more than a cultural difference between humans and orcs and elves. I think this might draw humans closer together, but also make them suspicious at best and cruel at worst, toward other races.

[@MrMaxamumdes]

I'm gonna be honest this entire vid just seems like a bad and downright cynical take. Like mentioning Fereldon in this honestly just makes me think you never actually played Dragon Age: Origins. The setting where in the human noble origin a rival house kills your entire family and forces you on the run? The setting where as a city elf, humans come to have fun with and assault the lesser species and completely believe they can get away with no punishment? The setting with detailed history of the wars in the name of the Maker against Elves and others? Where having magic gets you locked up by the Church and threatened with death or having all emotions stripped out of you? Heck, Stormwind was the isolationist, human only kingdom, that fought wars against Trolls, Gnolls and others! Then the Horde came and they got their shit pushed in. Meanwhile Lordaeron had allies they could rely on and were part of beating back the Horde to win the second war. If the humans in that realm were divided and and cynical as you want, they would have just been killed off! This just seems like you want every human civilization to be Imperium of Man 2.0. And that just sounds so boring.

[@the_furry_inside_your_walls639]

Let's not forget how he completely downplayed the Krytans being "peaceful humans not wanting to fight", even though the very reason they strive for peace is literally because humanity is a dying race in Guild Wars. That's not even taking into consideration the existence of the human separatists who actively fight back against Kryta because they want another war between humanity and the charr, or the fact that the founders of Ascalon literally slaughtered countless charr and drove the rest of what was initially their homeland, or the fact that the very reason as to why Ascalon couldn't even fight off the Charr Legions was because of internal strife and political turmoil that made the kingdom severely weak and incapable of properly defending itself against the full might of an entire coalition of four Legions of big, tough, intelligent ork-bull-cat beings who've known war and conflict all their lives. We can also forget about the Witcher and Elder Scrolls while we're at it.

[@gimmethegepgun]

Also, to their great credit, the Fereldans DID try to wipe out the Blight as soon as they could. They failed for several connected reasons, but they did take the initiative and tried. As for Guild Wars, as Snazzy said, the history of Ascalon is pretty messed up, and internal strife weakened them, but also the last gasp of the kingdom of Ascalon was their king cursing the entire remaining population to haunt the Charr forever. The Krytans, meanwhile are in their weakened state heavily due to an insane religious movement murdering their population. The Orrians are gone because the Vizier blew the entire country up. Over in Cantha, the southern half of the continent, inhabited by the Luxons and the Kurzicks, has essentially been in on-and-off war with each other for 1600 years (as of the time of GW1, we don't know their status in GW2's time). As of GW2's time, the continent has been an isolationist, authoritarian, xenophobic hellhole for the past 200 years. In Elona, in GW1's time, they were basically putting centaurs in concentration camps. In GW2's time, they've been subjugated and brainwashed by a crazy lich for the past 160 years so it's understandable that they may be different.

[@JillLulamoon]

This feels like such a weird video since this channel is usually much better than this for those reasons. Really sounds like he barely remembers Origins. The idea of humans all acting similar to Impreium is boring like you said. The Imperium also exists in a nightmare universe where being so totalitarian and xenophobic is almost necessary since the forces of Chaos exist. In WH40K, freedom of thought is quite literally dangerous to allow, since an open mind often is an open door for Chaos cults to infiltrate. Xenophobia in the Imperium exists cause humanity is well aware other aliens like Eldar and Tau are just as selfish, or like Orks and Tyranids can't be reasoned with and just want to destroy. It's a grim fact of that reality. Most fantasy universes arent anywhere near as bleak or hellish as 40k. That's part of what makes it unique and intriguing. A universe where technology is so advanced, yet it's so barbaric and coexistence is a distant dream. And why something like the Imperium mostly works only in that setting imo.

[@lichlord267]

Agreed, well said

[@drizzt7dourden7]

"the humans in dragon age are to nice"... looks at the tevinter empire where slavery, racism and bloodsacrafices (as well as bloodmagic) are a daly occurance. not to mention that they pissed of GOD and brought about the worst catastrophy to date by trying to reach the halls of god... i think the perception of "too good humans" comes from two factors: 1) they typicly have someone to focus their aggressions on. (be that monsters or "lesser" races) so they are less aggressive towards their piers. 2) in most of these storys humanity is, at least to some degree, backed into a corner and as such HAS to band together in order to survive.

[@Scorch052]

This is one of your sillier takes imo. This video feels more like nitpicking for the sake of the argument, rather than actually digging into why these fantasy humans behave differently.

[@thefirstprimariscatosicari6870]

I mean, they definitely didn't evolve in Africa. And also filled with mutants or actual races, unlike our pitiful divisive lines. Frankly, they might be nicer because everyone else around them is so different and/or dangerous, humans ended up less divided. Why hate based on skin, when there's a mutant with shooting lighting or a 3 meters tall green brute messing up the village? Edit: Plus humans in most fantasy worlds might actually be themselves an offshoot race of elves. As is everyone else. Because most intelligent species in fantasy can interbreed and birth fertile hybrids, which means they must all be the same species.

[@Fridaey13txhOktober]

On the other hand, pretending that these species are equal would be pretty hard.

[@thefirstprimariscatosicari6870]

@@Fridaey13txhOktober That's why most fantasy nations tend to be species or race specific. By the way, I said humans had races, but aren't in most fantasy world humans themselves technically a race of elves? Like pretty much most intelligent "species"? Very often, pretty much all races can interbreed and birth fertile hybrids. Which would make all of them the same species.

[@justarandomyoutubecommenter728]

⁠@@thefirstprimariscatosicari6870I could have sworn the “they can interbreed so they’re the same species” interpretation is controversial in some way, but that’s getting into something else entirely. For what it’s worth a lot of these settings literally have different races be made by different gods separately, so it gets kinda hard to explain interbreeding besides magic, tbf. Your right in that alot of fantasy tends to make humans and elves related though, kinda funny how common that is.

[@H240909]

I never understood the whole "It's not realistic unless its depressing!" idea. Its just way too cynical for me to take seriously and it says more about the person doing the complaining then the actual subject material. I know, I know! Its all down to personal experience, but if you really can't accept that people are fundamentally good or that in a world where humanity's greatest rivals is not itself that we aren't killing each other as much as usual, then there's a reason the genre is called "Fantasy". Now before anyone gets all defensive, this is just my opinion and I'm not calling out Templin Institute or anyone else.

[@BirdTurdMemes]

Humans are humans, if aliens showed up 1000 years ago and had one half the world while we had the other and we continually got in war we'd hate each others guts.

[@UGNAvalon]

Definitely agree, but I think having “mundane sufferings of everyday life” would be just as effective, if not Moreso, if it was combined with “mundane pleasures of everyday life”; it’s the little things that make life interesting (& therefore, make fantastical media feel more “alive”).

[@H240909]

@@BirdTurdMemes And just as many people would seek peace. That’s just how people are.

[@pedanticperson1149]

It doesn't have to be depressing, it's just that the humans in the fantasy settings mentioned appear so placid & reactionary (only in the extreme), as they normal humans would launch a proper crusade against any true existential threat level species. Orcs & the like would become things to be hunted for sport, culled & controlled as that's what humans do...* *Yes, I know that would destroy the stories being told, but there is a slight disconnect between fantasy humans & us real ones.

[@ernimuja6991]

Ima throw a history book at you. A thick one so it hurts too.

[@koro_kokoro]

"humans in these world are less cruel".... in warcraft the humans had literal concentration camps for beaten orc slaves after they were mind controlled to attack them a lifetime ago, where among other things they killed the orcs for fun when most werent even capable of fighting back

[@tankofreality4550]

Holy Hell I need to get into world of war craft.

[@getfreur2458]

That's nice compared to the genocide the Orcs did to the kingdom of stormwind before their defeat. If was the Romans they would genocide the Orcs and salt their lands.

[@accountname9506]

@@getfreur2458 Not like they had any lands to salt, given they were all leaving a dying planet.

[@getfreur2458]

@@accountname9506 wasn't dreanor still intact? I know it was much more desolate, but could still give them shelter like it did to illidan forces.

[@koro_kokoro]

@@getfreur2458 that wasnt hte orcs doing, that was the burning leagion controlling hte orcs, after the legions influence faded when they abandoned them they were left helpless. Funny how the humans let their own kind that happens too off scot free. Anduin is doing horrible things as a puppet of the jailer, but he wont be held to blame for it, because hes human, even though its the SAME situation the orcs were in after the first war

[@N1njaSnake]

I think you're forgetting complacency. If the threat isn't active, constant and immediate, it's difficult to rally the mob to support a wars without end.

[@ElliotKeaton]

This happened irl with Churchill identifying the Soviet Union as the next major threat to the world after Germany was defeated and wanting to go to war with them before the Soviet Union could rebuild their military strength. The people more or less replied with "Look, you're right but we're tired." and voted for someone else.

[@JayRNaylor]

In a lot of fantasy fiction, factions and races are written to represent good/evil, or other facets of human nature, distilled into that form, based on the author's views, impressions, and philosophies. They aren't meant to be mirrors held up to whatever someone thinks is "realistic."

[@moritamikamikara3879]

Alright, as a current student of military history I need to talk about why I think the human armies in fantasy are the way they are, and the problems that come with that. Warfare exists under the conditions of the interactions between 4 major forces: Infantry, Cavalry, Artillery and Fortifications. And the way that these different forces interact shapes how warfare is waged, the level of technology (And thus effectiveness) of these 4 forces advance at different rates. A war in which cavalry is ascendant tends to feature extremely quick battles, think the early medieval period when Knights were meta (That's the best way of describing this). A war in which all 4 forces are fairly balanced results in a very tactical battlefield in which the generals have access to the biggest variety of resources, think the era of pike and shot when Pikes countered horses, horses countered muskets, muskets countered pikes and artillery countered all infantry. A war in which Artillery and Fortifications are ascendant is an extremely slow and bloody war. In world war one, the meta looked like that. Now in fantasy, you usually have levels of technology hovering anywhere between the years of 1,000 AD and 1,500 AD. Certainly I can see a fair few Germanic/Viking looking shields in that early shot from helm's deep as well as some bearded axes and even some goggle-helms, but I also see some mid-late renaissance plate armour and Sengoku-era Katanas. So ordinarily, this would be somewhere between the Knights of the middle ages and the Pike and shot tactics of the late 15th and early 16th century, but without gunpowder, the balance would be fairly effectively between Cavalry and Pike infantry (Although I see precious few pikes in that shot that REALLY come close to what the ancient Macedonians or Medieval Swiss utilised to great effect) BUT. This is not the year 1,000 AD or 1,500 AD. This is fantasy. And magic throws a massive wrench into the entire equation. Because the magicians in an army could function in so many different ways depending on how they spec. I think most common would be healing and support, which would give a massive boost to the infantry, as it would be much easier to cast spells of healing, resistance or (and this is most crucial) Courage/mental fortitude. But by far and away the most decisive way a magician could function on the battlefield is by learning explosive spells and taking the role of Artillery. What this means in practice is that the infantry becomes nigh useless and the game becomes heavily weighted in favour of Artillery and Cavalry. Why is this? Well, in our world, proper high-explosive shells that worked consistently and weren't dangerous to the users did not come about until the 19th century, so for 300 years, Cannons were used almost exclusively with solid shot (There were exceptions but Solid shot was the most effective in most situations) what you would have would be a cannonball that would bounce along the ground at Mach 1 taking out anything in it's path, but this still wouldn't be too effective as they took a decent while to reload and only took out what they could hit. The effect of magical artillery in this would would be like Bringing the Artillery of WW1 into the 15th century. Suddenly, due to the massive splash radius of artillery, it no longer makes sense to get into tight packed formations, it makes a lot more sense to spread out in open order formations like what occurred in WW1 and has been the norm ever since. But, since infantry don't have firearms to defend themselves, being in open order formations or even not in formation at all as is often seen in fantasy films leaves these infantry sitting ducks for Cavalry, which they have no real defence against because they're forced out of the tight order formations that allowed pike troops to defeat knights and Cataphracts so consistently in our world. And that is why you see such weird behaviour from armies in fantasy. In our world with the technology of this time, Infantry was fairly balanced, it would clump up together in very close order formations to provide a big wall of just fucking spikes to help protect itself from cavalry, each man defending the next, while still somewhat vulnerable to artillery. But in these fantasy worlds, artillery would have such a massive advantage in the form of magicians that close order formations are no longer worth it. So instead, you see armies in a much less effective open order formations where they can be very easily flanked and mopped up by the much faster and longer ranged (Lances) cavalry. If the forces you see in Helm's deep were to face... let's say the great heathen army, for instance. They would likely win quite decisively as Vikings generally didn't use a lot of cavalry (With the exception of the Normans) which would normally be used to counter their open order formations. Then, the vikings, huddled behind their little shield walls would be blown to pieces by magic spells. Or so I assume, I don't actually know a whole lot about Tolkien's magic system, so who knows. Maybe this artillery wizard thing doesn't even hold up idk.

[@custink22]

Yeah, Tolkien left his descriptions of magic very vague. But in other fantasy worlds, you see the effects of magic creating strange formations. I mean, if that wizard over there can throw a fireball spell that hits in a 10 foot ring, then it makes sense to spread your infantry out. But, as you said, that leaves infantry open to cavalry or even (skilled) archers... So fantasy armies would need to be skilled enough to have formations and strategies for dealing with them all in order to not be defeated in very short order. But with fantasy, the spell casters (usually) need line of sight and to be fairly close to the battle to use their spells, so theyre at high risk too, eapecially if they get mobbed by infantry, or swarmed with arrows or plowed over by cavalry.

[@artski09]

sir i think you need to read a book series call the spell monger. over the course of this series it is pretty much exploring magic base warfare. how do knight charge work when you can cast a lightning spell? how the hell do you fight a fucking dragon! it goes from low magic (aka GOT & Lotr) to pretty high magic

[@sethb3090]

Going by the movies at least, you only see battlefield magic rarely. However, when it does show up it tends to wreck armies pretty hard. For a series that has started getting into this, I recommend Brandon Sanderson's Stormlight Archive. By book 4, advances in both magic and technology are beginning to render heavy infantry blocks useless, and there's also a lot of analysis going on as to how military theory works around things like Shardbearers (warriors with power armor and swords that slice through steel/rock/whatever no problem). He also goes into logistics and stuff (like magic users creating food and shelter to allow an army to march without extended supply trains). It's some good stuff.

[@rhymenoceros3303]

Another thing to consider is war beasts which are heavily featured in franchises like Lord of the Rings and Warhammer Fantasy. That tightly packed formation isn't going to stop a squad of heavily armored trolls from bashing through you and smashing you with clubs bigger then you are tall. And don't forget dragons who can fly circles around your formations, dive in and out of combat however many times they want, fly high enough to negate any defense your archers could put up and of course just be able to roast your tightly packed battle lines in a single pass. Makes it all the more understandable why fantasy humans wouldn't exclusively utilize the same tactics we use to fight other humans. Magic and fantastical beasts really change the nature of the battlefield.

[@VATROU]

There's definitely a lot of ways magic, and fictional beasts can wreck traditional warfare. Assuming a fictional world has a decent grasp of what magic can and cannot do and everyone could learn something basic. That would mean even infantry would do well to learn some sort of magical shield or dispell. So when they're pressed against an enemy line they could easily cast spells to disrupt formations and allow calvary to advance quickly, imagine mages on horseback firing off lighting lances. Or on another magic beast, dragon riders, or just flying by themselves like Iron Man raining spells from above. If the magic system exists at all and is poorly defined it would be easily abused and forgotten by it's own author.

[@TheRewasder97]

The humans shown in the Lord of the Rings are not exactly humans, they're a more advanced human, more evolved and refined. The humans as we know them would be the wild middlemen (as they come from middle earth). The people of Dunland and Enedwaith, which are indeed more savaje and "fight dirty".

[@ViccVegaa023]

Agreed. If I remember rightl the Dunedain(?), are advanced humans compared to the men of Gondor, who are more advanced than the Rohorrim who are more advanced than..everyone else. That "everyone else" are the common human folk that fight dirty and what not. Tolkien isn't interested in them at all and they are mostly depicted as savage hordes.

[@justjoking5841]

Wouldn't that just be like comparing a rich person who has taken up fencing versus a poor person who is an experienced street fighter?

[@TheRewasder97]

@@justjoking5841 More like comparing a horse and a donkey, they look similar, they can even crossbreed (in fact the different kinds of men depend on how mixed they are between numenoreans, middlemen or elves), but they're not exactly the same race.

[@davidduran3802]

Yes, being Tolkien of a Christian and western culture, he would imprint those categories into what he calls the higher kindreds of humans.

[@BroadwayRonMexico]

@@davidduran3802 A central theme at work in Tolkien is that humanity degenerates over time. Men (and elves for that matter) were once far greater in his Legendarium than they were by the time of LOTR--longer lived, taller, more gifted in magic, etc. As much as he tended to dislike analogy, his Christian beliefs were a big influence here, and much as in scripture, men were longer-lived and greater in earlier times (and get shorter lived the longer after The Fall you get). The "greater men" of the West, descended from Numenor's faithful are simply those who remain closer to how men once were, because they maintain the blessings of Eru for keeping faith in him (whereas the Easterlings and other such groups descend from those who continually sided against Eru and the Valar)

[@NivRel]

well no, i'm gwessing that that's the result of having a common enemy as a species, the main divergences smooth out with time cause people have to live with all the dangers that also aggregate in great numbers to kill humans indiscriminately constant friction with these creatures ended up creating the situations we see they probably already hunted them down ecc ecc, but try it yourself to defeat a whole race who's doing the same from the start and almost always has greater numbers or superior streinght

[@hanklanphier8934]

Not sure if this has been said, but humans in fantasy are also inhumanly strong. That kid at 0:24 is wielding a shield fully two inches thick, and the armor of Azeroth is impossibly thick slabs of steel for a standard human.

[@calamitoso0066]

They also are terrible blacksmiths that wear heavy and frail equipment that lacks the same flexibility and durability than ours. I blame that on their overrelience in magic and their lack of desire of intelectual progress.

[@rolay7730]

Interesting fact. In medieval times church scholar's debated on if the commonly believed other human species had souls. They talked about dog headed people with just as much certainty as when they were talking about God. They fully believed other fantasy species existed at the time.

[@jeghaterdegforfaen]

I thought this was going to be a video about how humans in fantasy are created differently than real humans, i.e. the theory of evolution is not applicaple to most fantasy settings. As such, fantasy humans are similar in appearance, but they're not "real" humans. Instead, the actual subject in the video is that human societies in fantasy are often unrealistic in the sense that the people generally don't behave as real humans. I think that is unfair. The kingdoms in fantasy are settings where characters do things, and won't be as in depth as a real country with it's millions of individuals with real problems. The author writing the story can't accuratly create a fantasy world that is as intricate as our real one, so instead of a faction (among many) fractured by subfactions and individuals with contradicting views and opinions, there is one faction who want one thing. In some cases there's one or more people within the faction with their own agenda (such as the Children of Light in The Wheel of Time series). Long story short, even great fantasy settings with deep backstory will appear simplistic if compared with the real world. It's as if you're comparing a painting to a photograph.

[@MapleLeaf2501]

Yeah pretty much, the whole analysis feels shallow and even most of his examples were wrong as they, even on a surface level, have lots of examples of the less "pleasant" aspects of humanity coming up. Just because there is a lack of (frankly) everyone being a bastard and backstabber like in the A Song of Fire and Ice series means that the WoW humans are just always at peace with each other (I've never even been into WoW and even I know they've had civil wars, rebellions and oh yeah, one of the biggest Big Bads of one of the most beloved online expansions was a human traitor who fell off a huge deep end in a previous game).

[@JFBD1999]

Reason is quite simple. Tolkien wanted to portray an idealised version of humanity in the men of the west that exhibited the virtues of people seen in anglican myth. Meanwhile the harsher parts of the human experience were supposed to be viewed in the darker races in the setting i.e the orks, sauron, the balrog and the easterlings. The closest he really comes to showing hummanity in a realistic sense is the steward or the men of the mountain. One of the common critiques of LOTR is that it is just a bland good vs evil story but thats not a mistake and is in fact something Tolkien intended.

[@gokbay3057]

You missed the fact that Easterlings are literally human (as are Haradrim)?

[@JFBD1999]

@@gokbay3057 Bad wording on my part.

[@nipoone6109]

It's like people forget he was a devoted Catholic. A good vs evil story is the foundation of the Bible, regardless of whether you believe in it or not.

[@thorshammer7883]

You purposely ignored the details of Tolkien's world without much thought did you.

[@gavinsmith9871]

Like the 60-80 percent of humans that are evil.

[@SirAroace]

@@phantomwraith1984 And there it is, the Templin ass kisser. He use Middle Earth as a main example for most of the video.

[@thorshammer7883]

@@phantomwraith1984 That is ignorance added with an unclear insult. Your hollowed words mean nothing to me.

[@Arashmickey]

Whether or not Tolkien's narrative passes scrutiny, making generalizations about fantasy humans then asking for explanation based on "some obscure piece of lore" just comes across as lazy and disingenuous. This feels like clickbait in video form.

[@thorshammer7883]

@@Arashmickey Indeed that would mostly appear as truth from what I have seen of this video.

[@DaDunge]

3:00 Then the Orcs would still have been more powerful. The orcs have a greater power behind them pushing them. It's not like the humans of middle earth haven't tried to wipe out the orcs.

[@HowToPnP]

You know that your argument basically boils down to "how dare these escapist fantasy stories be escapist" right? And that's the charitable interpretation btw.

[@nizam5568]

Cyrus the Great was a nice guy though, he'd give the orcs freedom of religion and stuff

[@tankofreality4550]

sounds like you wanna make a fanfiction send me the link

[@Warsie]

@@tankofreality4550 no the historical Cyrus did that when creating ancient Iran lol

[@tankofreality4550]

@@Warsie he was his own fanfiction? muhahaha i know what to do next

[@georgethompson1460]

@The Complicator Or he'd get his ass kicked at the black gate by Saurons forces, remember the nazgul are living shellshock.

[@minhmeo9506]

Speaking of fantasy, there are many other topics that we can discuss: how fantasy modern warfare works, Industrialization in the fantasy world,.... I’m a big fan of Magitek and anything like that :3

[@Ray-yv7kn]

Hello? Is this the Ordo Xeno? Yes, I found the alien sympathizer.

[@adambielen8996]

Yeah, the fact that most fantasy settings either have no advancement in technology or it is sooooo slow tends to bother me. And far too often the blending of magic and science is just ignored. I can only think of a couple settings that avoid these problems, namely Warmachine and Shadow of the Conquerer.

[@bigpoppa251]

Like Science Fantasy with Star Wars and Destiny

[@ItRemindMeOfHome]

At least where Middle Earth is concerned, *someone* didn't read the Silmarillion

[@NobodieZ26]

First of all, I'm pretty you sure you missed some of the evil human factions in Middle Earth. Some of whom allied with Sauron! Not to mention the Scarlet Crusade from Warcraft. Now on to the main argument, while I do see you point to a degree....but. To me complaining how human in some fantasy setting aren't bastards is like complaining that Superman uses his powers for good. Sometimes people want to see people be heroes. Especially after hearing about backlash from Game of Throne finale.

[@nobleman9393]

Because destroying an entire species that has a similar level of technology to yours is super easy.

[@romulusnuma116]

Not really a thing I’ve thought guess I’ve always just accepted it for the sake of the story

[@nestortorrech4741]

They are ideals, meant to, in a similar vein to fairy tales, convey a notion of what humans are capable of being. What they should strive to be. The Nobility of a typical Fantasy human is meant to inspire us by showing us what we ought to be.

[@wjzav1971]

Same thing with Starfleet in Star Trek hanging in the ropes every other war because humans are just too good to build straight up warships unlike the Klingons, Romulans or Cardassians.

[@LordVader1094]

"Newsflash: the genre's called FANTASY! It's meant to be UNREALISTIC you myopic manatee!" -J.R.R. Tolkien

[@Volnas97]

Instead of acting how they would, they're acting how they should. I think, that people from Dragon Prince are pretty acurate, can't do magic, they find another source, Elves attack their king, they do strike back, but only after "villain" convinces them, that they can gain something from it, also there are conflicts between human kingdoms.

[@holywaterbottle3175]

This is the kind of take one reaches after having only read about the worst, moost violent parts of history and deciding that's all that matters. You read about one empire going genocide that one time and ignore the hundreds of years before and after where people coexisted in peace in the same land

[@hakaen2119]

I feel like maybe i am taking this from a very different perspective, but this feels like it is very ignorant/ignoring towards the thoughts of the writers like tolkien behind their races.

[@herrnein4164]

Lore wise the humans of Stormwind are extremely aggressive. The story just happens at a point where they aren't as aggressive and have been the recent victims of sudden aggressive groups. They're literally what you said. The only difference is they're the ones who were more recently thwacked.

[@DarthNicky]

Not sure I agree with this. It’s a pretty narrow view of our history imo. Yes, people of our past were a lot more sexist, fanatic, and all those other attributes than their fantasy contemporaries, but not by too much, to be honest. For example, you mention Cyrus the Great at the end, and I find this odd since he’s pretty famous for being one of the less awful and oppressive rulers in pre-modern history. He was very hands-off with those he ruled as long as they paid their dues, and even fostered their cultures (the Jews went as far as to declare him the messiah as he allowed them to return to Judea and funded the construction of a new temple in Jerusalem). Ultimately, with some notable exceptions, people are far more concerned with their money than they are with their prejudices. In the case of the Uruk-Hai and Orcs I can agree with you that, yeah, those humans realistically should be far more vicious towards them. But for others, I’m not so sure. I’m also not too well versed in fantasy so maybe there’s a better explanation for all of this, I’m not sure.

[@OHCAM5]

3:27 they would have lost and humanity would be extinct. There's a reason they don't go into Mordor looking for a fight. 'One does not simply walk into Mordor"

[@mardroidmk1393]

Actually in Tolkien's LotR world, humans are very mixed in their allegiance. While elves and dwarves are almost entirely on the side of light and orcs and trolls on the side of dark, there are as many humans on thr side of dark (if not more) as there are for light. And some of those are corrupted. We just happen to spend most of our time with the good guys, like Gondorians and Rohirrim. Oh and Rohirrim policy on learning of a troop of orcs in the vicinity is to exterminate them all on site. You could argue they did it as they know they pose a threat in their territory, but there seems to be an attitude that orcs are inherritantly evil and need to be wiped out. I think the humans of Tolkien's world are very much out species.

[@nobody-ye9rx]

For my understanding orcs are stronger and have higher pain tolerances making them ideally suited to the brutality of medieval warfare. Perhaps humans of that time period were more savage than we are today but I think it would be an even fight. If I recall correctly it was inter-human strife that handicapped humanities ability to stave off the orcs

[@BenignImages]

I have often asserted that fantasy and sci fi that have different races in it reflects different aspects of humanity. The elves are what we may reach for and by reaching for it we become the more noble humans, who are nobler, less aggressive, etc. than we are in the real world. Uruk-hai represent who we could descent into if we fall for our baser instincts. You can even see this in ancient mythologies. The Ettins or Jotuns of Norse mythology are not a different race from the Aesir, but a more savage and less noble version of what humanity can be. This is also why humans or heroes in the stories seem strange, because they are what we should reach for.

[@sephiroaone-of-nine101]

what>>>>

[@tonic9914]

Yes Inquisitor, this heresy right here

[@inquisitorbenediktanders3142]

Already surveiling him, I'll get him soon.

[@VoiceOfTheEmperor]

This Heresy is thought provoking.

[@DocWolph]

@@VoiceOfTheEmperor Provocation of Thought is a terminal offense in the Imperium of Man. But then the human in WH40K aren't human either. Literally everything about the IoM requires humans to be far more sheepish and less mentally and morally resilient than they really are.

[@Petterwass]

@@DocWolph 10.000 years of propaganda, indoctrination (of multiple forms), and publicly torturing to death anyone that dissents might well do that

[@DocWolph]

@@Petterwass That doesn't work either. Humans, REAL Humans, would rebel even unto death, They would bend fold and spindle that indoctrination, and most certainly would NEVER allow Knowledge and/or the ability to attain it to be lost or so controlled as to cease to be a HUMAN thing. Further every regime that has tried to rule by force and intimidation has ultimately failed by factors within and without. Lies and Propaganda only last so long. It is simply impossible for anyone to attain and maintain the level of control the IoM is supposed to have across A planet, for get 100s of 1000s in a Galaxy where it might be centuries before that planet ever sees their so-called conquerors again, if ever. Do not kid yourself, the Humans in WH40K are NOT REAL HUMANS.

[@theemperorschosen7607]

Humanity in each Fantasy mentioned: Ferelden: Literally just got done with a decades long war to break away from Orlais, gets into a civil war mid-Blight The Kingdoms of Men in LOTR: Fall to infighting, Arnor is divided and Conquered. WoW: Idek much about it tbh.

[@mikhaelgribkov4117]

Woe: had Crimson Crusade

[@spartnmarcen5110]

One of the biggest things that the LOTR movie's miss on showing is that *most* of the human kingdoms were in decline, at the low point of their power, or were contending with threats from three different directions so they couldn't amass their forces properly. Sauron really leaned into the divide and conquer strategy in the final war with many armies attacking from different directions. (Not counting the various wars and plagues in the hundreds of years beforehand to further weaken the human kingdoms).

[@LasertechStudios3142]

I mean I'm sure that you could make the same argument about humanity in our world if you looked at it with as narrow of a sample size as you're doing with Middle Earth specifically. If you gave Middle Earth human history the same treatment you seem to give ours, then there is no manner of ridiculous bloodshed. The Gondorians literally fought a civil war over pure bloodlines where the losers fled into exile and created the regional identity of the umbar pirates. By the same token, the wild men of Dunlend were basically ethnically cleansed from their homelands by Rohan's ancestors. There have been in fact several occasions where the orcs were exterminated in entire regions (the cleansing of Angmar comes to mind especially), and their staying power comes from the fact that there are always refuges for Sauron's followers so long as he lives. Can't speak to the other universes you're talking about, but you're view on Middle Earth is ridiculously narrow. Humanity is literally the ascendant species by the end of The Third Age not through the intervention of elves, dwarves, or even from their god-gifted Numenorean blood, but through the sacrifice of a group of halflings and the toil of the masses of mixed ancestry. You're going to have a hard time arguing that any human ruler from our world would have been better able to resist the call of the ring when the thing literally preys on the human ambition that you say is lacking in these fantasy humans. If what you dislike about Middle Earth is that normal humans can't just defeat a literal demi-god and his host of demons through strength of arms, you need to be honest about that. It seems to me that the problem with fantasy humans is less about their attributes than your ability to buy into the premise that humanity finds itself outmatched. I like your content generally, and I don't think you need to attempt to make an objectively grounded argument for every single take you have.

[@mobbofmobs8937]

Correct me if I am wrong but gondor also also had multiple wars with the various men of the east. The men of ruin(?) Being almost there equal and being one of the many armies to side with the orcs mostly out of spite for gondor. Plus arnor(?) The northern Kingdom literally tore itself apart before the witch King finished it off.

[@LasertechStudios3142]

@@mobbofmobs8937The Men of Rhun did in fact fight Gondor, and everything else you say is true. Hence I am incredulous that Middle Earth humanity is being branded as being "too soft" and that normal humans would totally just roll Sauron.

[@kelvinmelon1668]

From 3.10 - 3.20 you've just explain what The Empire of Man from Warhammer Fantasy is and it's amazing how the concept can be explaining in 10 sec 😂

[@fabiobravo329]

It's kinda simple in my view. The human tendency to form 'tribes' against other 'tribes' is still present. Instead of the groups being based on race or social status or whatever, the humans forma group and act discriminatory against other races in their respective worlds. In almost all of the works you refer this happens

[@DarkArtistKaiser]

To be honest, while I want to say sure that makes sense, keep in mind that many of these fantasy races not only have stronger than human warriors while boosting post iron age weaponry, they also have actual magic and sorcery backing them as well. That in itself would give them serious one ups on humanity in our world. Our savageness can only take us so far, remember, often orcs in fantasy worlds are "savage" in ways humans in our world might be, but in the end they often get their ass kicked because the humans allign with other races like elves and dwarves. Romans rely on their legions as the backbone of their armies, and a big reason for their success is organization and training. The former of that can easily be destroyed by a magic blast or by a large (maybe tamed) beast as grouping together also makse them vulnerable to splash. The mongol Horde, while numerous, would only need its greatest head or heads assassinated by Dark or whatever other elf and they fall into infighting quickly. The religious fanaticism of crusaders would benefit them of course and no doubt would work in their favor, but even the crusader kings were hardly united as all it would take is for them to be convinced by a totally human looking person that the others are conspiring against them. Our savagery can only carry us so far against other races who are specialized in their own fields. Dwarves could build mighty fortresses and cannons to hold off our armies, Elves wouldn't have to fight open battles as guerilla warfare and assassinations would pick us off. The orcs and other such races may be like gauls to romans, but they usually are able to handle alot more than the average human too. Tactics wise they may just bash against us like barbarians of old, but they got endurance on their side, as well as in many cases iron/steel armor and weaponry. And all of tihs could be pointless cause the one thing that our planets humans have that many other humans in other worlds don't usually have(Unless story wise in it) is horrific amounts of infighting. Sure, we may allign ourselves against a common enemy...but so could other humans do that as well. Hell, how else did the Romans conquer so much of Europe, or for the British India? Don't get me wrong, I'm very much all for humanity and all, but our culture and power structures exist in a way that any race could easily exploit to its most logical extreme and it would be no surprise why we would of lost. Its like the Empire invading Earth, sure we maybe able to put up a fight if our governments don't already sign over to the Empire, but the ultimate truth is a long term war will inevitably doom us rather than save us. Wars are not meant to last forever, and Total War on the scale of civilizations and peoples would be taxing for any one great empire to say the least.

[@rubz1390]

To be fair there are violent, greedy and flawed humans in Lotr. Wildmen from Dunland (I think it was spelled this way), the Ringwraiths are corrupted men, Isildur caused 3000 years of problems when he refused to destroy the Ring, etc.