510: The SBC Report and Rethinking Sexual Ethics with Christine Emba

[@onegirlarmy4401]

Kaitlyn is completely right when she talks about being the token female who is expected to agree with what the men say and not contradict them. Yes-women is a real thing. Or you'll start talking and men will speak over you, quite eagerly. I once sat in a tribunal of elders to address a situation where I was the target and was never allowed to talk the entire 3 hour meeting.

[@felixmidas2020]

Why would you accept a "tribunal of elders" to be held over you? Do you live in a cult?

[@virginiacrosby4160]

Skye made a good point (42:26ish), but in the last several years, I've seen a better understanding of justice and human dignity coming from non-believers than from church.

[@kimberleyprestonstevens3198]

Re. Report- Phil, your “rant” was spot on. I love the line “women looked at as consumables”.

[@jsharp3165]

Yes. "Consumable" is actually even more descriptive than "objectified."

[@jsharp3165]

I went to the prom as the school newspaper's photographer. I had no date. I was dropped off by my mom at the venue. It was easily one of the most depressing nights of my life. I didn't take many pictures. I just hung out behind the potted plants and hated myself for being shy and nerdy. But three years later I met my gorgeous future wife at church. And she had been to many dances in her day. So I turned out okay.

[@23Hiya]

Love. This. Show. The through line between Kaitlyn's interview and SBC stuff is power dynamics. The sexual revolution seems to have been a response to abusive exercises of power, over women and sexual minorities, and so it is no surprise that you arrive at a minimal ethic where there are essentially no rules that one party can leverage to get power over the other. It says, The rules we've been given only serve some so each of us must invent our own rules. That responsibility is wildly difficult for adults and for kids it feels totally unreasonable to expect that a minimal ethic will lead to flourishing. The core of the SBC problem is also power. Men express their preferences disguised as "God's rules," and leverage those rules to control, silence, and abuse. We gotta learn to watch for people who are a little too sure of themselves and their access to the mind of God. Those folks are on the fast track to deifying their personal fears and desires and deserve special scrutiny, not bigger platforms.

[@bezadesta6484]

please please keep the new category: "things i'm not going to worry about"

[@complexmindsimpleman6642]

A significant part of my "deconstruction" and ultimate abandonment of the church was being blessed with daughters. From top to bottom, among the most dangerous places for a woman's mind and body is the church. You aren't safe and no one will help you there

[@Wren_Farthing]

Kaitlyn's comments starting at 27:55 are spot on!

[@kristinbond]

I agree! I have experienced this first hand. As a leader in a church I often feel like a token and not actually respected as a credible voice.

[@Wren_Farthing]

​@@kristinbond I'm grateful to all the pioneering women in church leadership , and to those in similar positions in broader society. I also appreciate the men who leverage their power in support of diversity in leadership. It's a start. Women are uniquely situated to recognize the nuances of the power dynamic. I hope that they will begin to be heard.

[@jtalle01]

Sex needs more than consent, this is true. I would suggest people reviewing the FRIES model of consent. Consent is a good starting point, and matters more than just with sex.

[@lovelyguy5345]

Phil you said it’s something a man wouldn’t understand(or something similar). But if it was a man sexually abused there would be outrage and action. Lord bless this church, let there be healing

[@Justanotherconsumer]

News of the “but that’s not my problem?” Peace, peace when there is no peace is what comes to mind from Jeremiah. I see a lot of that these days from those that want to live in denial about the realities around us - there is no racism, there is no pandemic, there is no problem with gun culture, there is no problem with domestic violence, and so on and so forth. As for the SBC, I’m starting to think that the Hard Shell Baptists were wiser than I had given them credit for.

[@JohnThomas-ut3go]

Kaitlyn was the perfect co-cohost for this episode. Their is one minor complaint. We like to push this narrative that the media pushes culture. I think that's wrong and an idea that separates us from cultural responsibility. Media, especially books, movies, music is a commodity. The idea is to present the people a product they want to pay for. It may be that culture drives media which enhances the culture they are marketing. This is a great conversation though. We as a culture have avoided talk of sex for to long and it's done great harm. It's not surprising we don't understand desire, sex, consent.

[@falkinable]

Media does push culture though. Those in power influence it and it also shape our beliefs in how our systems work. Law and Order, for example, we know it's fiction, but it subconsciously shapes our perspective on police work and the criminal justice system, especially for people who have never been exposed to that world. We as Christians are empowered by the Holy Spirit to question the media's assumptions and shine the light of God's word on them. Anyways that's my two cents.

[@JohnThomas-ut3go]

@@falkinable I do understand that point of view. In the past, I think it was valid. There was force applied to media to always represent law enforcement in a positive light. The south made a strong effort to rewrite opinions and beliefs about the civil war and confederate states. I just don't think it is done any more. Today, more than anytime before, media is a product being sold. From movies to news broadcast there is a target audience. I grew up in the 80s/90s. I've seen media change many times throughout the decades. It chases the market. Soon Gen z will be the market and it will change again. They are already preparing for that. A bigger force for cultural change is community. The more diversity you experience the more you change culturally. It's why there are such big differences between city and rural cultures. The internet broadens community as well. You can see it's effect even in small-town communities. It's people that drive culture and that culture drives the profit-seeking of media companies. I understand that media seem to embrace an idea then communities follow but that isn't what's happening. Media is constantly researching where culture is going and where profit is ready to be accessed. They are just observing the trends and staying relevant within those trends as much as possible.

[@falkinable]

@@JohnThomas-ut3go ah well, I think it's still done because I see broader tends shaped by the media and not the other way around. I see kids' understanding of the world shaped by broader trends they see online and those things have a source. The broader trends are shaped by actual people, celebrities, or perhaps other groups with platforms. They create the trends and a lot of times they're part of the media. But hey you may be right, but I'm highly suspect. Many of these things aren't as organic as they seem

[@JohnThomas-ut3go]

@@falkinable I understand this view. Let me ask you to consider something. Online media is generally driven by view. What's gonna get people to stop on a video or article? A piece if media that goes against a persons cultural bias or one that matches it. The evidence currently show it's the ones that match. That is then reinforced by the algorithm trying to maximize profit by providing similar content to encourage longer viewing and pushing more adds. Culture drives this even though media reinforces it. Now traditional media sakes it's product in a different way but news, movies, music is still a product you have to market. If you want to sell a product what's going to net you the most profit? Waiting until something grows popular and then providing it or catching a trend early and riding it till the next trend comes along? Like inline content the profit motive will see a trend or cultural view gaining traction and reinforce it by directing content designed to appeal to it. I do understand that this can look like media driving culture, especially when they seem to adopt a culture early. But look how new types of music have entered the culture since recorded mass distributed media was invented. It does the same thing. Looks for up coming trends, adopts them sells it to the masses, and drops older forms when the new becomes the norm. That's just how media seems to work in all forms now. Though I don't think news worked this way before the 24 hour news cycle.

[@ec-bi2ok]

kaitlin made some great points One of the problems is we think we're so sophisticated we think we're so much different but our sin our brokenness is really not that much different than what it was in biblical times and throughout history we just learned new ways to cover it up and justify...

[@waynestam7297]

The army of ducks was my favorite Holy Post clip ever...Kaitlyn, you must watch it

[@SandyKH]

From the start, I must say, the idea of their being dangerous things in the world that you choose not to worry about, is worth noting and should be voiced more often. A welcome series. As to the SBC, thank you for including it in your discussion. The days are so news packed that this could have quickly been forgotten except by the victims who suffer under it. 850 pastors is a lot. To put it in perspective, since Columbine, there have been some 245 school shootings. That sounds like a tiny number comparatively. Do any of these pastors or the church leaders that feared lawsuits, want to be like Christ at all? When did that stop being the goal? Jesus treated women correctly. Kindly, respectfully, even when he knew they were wrong. He chose to use them for His kingdom, not abuse them in any way. Not in any way. We have a long way to go. The interview was well worth the time.

[@brucee8332]

We need a multi-pronged, thought-filled, and mindfully compassionate approach. Women in leadership will be a part of the solution, but it will take a paradigm shift for women's voices to be heard truly. And all in leadership need to study sex and sexuality in an open way to understand that sexual violence and abuse are motivated more by power needs than lust. EDUCATE THOSE MEN!

[@jgunn03]

I would also like to note circa 28:00 (where Kaitlyn's talking about women in leadership in the church) that even though the men might INVITE women to the table, they ALWAY (not often, not sometimes, not rarely, not frequently . . . . but ALWAYS) talk over them. SO nothing gets done when women are 'invited' to the table. It's simply tokenism on men's part to allow women in "their" realm. This happens all the time here on the Holy Post. I'm thinking about the abortion episodes. The men, unimpregnable, overtalked the women, who are very impregnable as long as they haven't been castrated (totally different issue on the unnecessary ripping out of uteri by the for-profit medical systems around the world).

[@erickajen]

i went to THREE proms! so, in our k-12 school, the junior class plans the prom "for" the seniors. the year i was a soph, there was only one junior who was going to work the dance. since i had done several other dances, i got volunteered to do prom and got to go! it was in our gym, and it was a vegas theme. they made "money" with funny pictures of teachers on it and i still have them! it was a good time! (I never had a date to prom lol) the next year we had our prom, dont remember the theme, in the school. must have been rather unremarkable. my senior year, again, i was on the team to plan it, because the grade under didnt want to either. hahaha we actually picked a resort far far out of town, paid for a fancy dj (this was before digital music), and since it was our sr prom, a girl (my bully of course) set it up for a teacher to walk me in grand march. it was funny - to me. but i guess it became a thing, most of which i didnt hear about i guess. :P it was one of the chaperones. anyway. everyone left at 9:30. we had paid the dj until 12! i was kinda annoyed that everyone ditched it. downside to not having it in school perhaps. :P

[@geoffhorswood6234]

Did no-one else’s grandma tell them “Be sure your sins will find you out”? If there’s a scandal, it will always come out, and it’ll be far worse for you when it does if you’ve tried to cover it up

[@janeef1183]

Good episode- I would have liked to seen a multi-generational conversation regarding the sexual ethics piece though. Sometimes I feel like Kaitlin takes what's seen as the "young people's" interviews (which I enjoy), but I even moreso appreciate intergenerational dialogue. Perhaps there could be some tag team interviews in the future?

[@luisbartolomey3988]

I didn’t go to my prom but I went to the prom of the Vocational high school because my friends girlfriend had a friend who needed a date. But I didn’t dance with her because I didn’t want word to get back to my pastor. I came from a very legalistic church where dancing was not allowed. But at least I got a chance to catch up with friends that I lost touch with after middle school.

[@dr.timothyfuller8763]

This reports reveals a glaring contradictions and hypocrisy. They focused on the dangers of CRT and the "heresy"of woman preachers while letting predators and abusers go scot free. The gospel is not just concerned with going to heaven when you die, it is also about bringing shalom or wholeness. If you just evangelize the sinner and give them a place in heaven, I guess their victimization, and abuse is not important. How have we missed it. This is so far from the Jesus they proclaim

[@tdproductionchannel260]

In response to the SBC issue I posted this comment on the Faith & Prejudice Facebook thread. I think it applies. "It's tough. I've been thinking about this. This is my take. Church has become corporate. This is why it can be used politically. Word of Faith and Prosperity Theology has damaged the church. The church corporation is all about setting up a system to prosper. You are familiar with this process, Next steps, small groups, worship ministry, 5 fold ministry, The structure can be seen in the large mega churches, with the small churches following behind in hope to one day be a mega church. While all the time not focusing on what the bible instructs us to do. It's my observation that the church had two pivotal opportunities (after George Floyd and during COVID). But it didn't fit into the corporate church system therefore it was ignored. What did we see? Now the covers are coming off so people can really see what it's all about. Greed and power. Not Matthew 25 or any of the other long list of bible versus that talk about social justice and taking care of each other regardless of race, gender or religious background. The Lord will have his will."

[@js1423]

Shuffling around guilty pastors? Sounds like a repeat of the Catholic scandal and presumably of secular institutions as well.

[@Justanotherconsumer]

The sad reality is that these church institutions are secular institutions. They may be inspired by divine word, but they are human institutions controlled and governed by humans.

[@becstutz]

Phil- thank you for speaking the truth about women’s loves being destroyed. I am going to graduate seminary soon and when I brought up to a group of fellow pastors that the derogatory way a popular preacher talks, who was brought to speak in our town, isn’t great and is upsetting- most of the pastors agreed that he shouldn’t have been invited to speak here. One 24 year old youth pastor told me that I was incorrect and it was just “too offendable” since there are many marriages that work great if the wife is quiet and in the background to support the man…. His inability to see that he was undervaluing women was frustrating. He went on to say more but I’ll stop here since the other things really don’t need to be repeated

[@liberalepiscopalian8332]

I found the discussion with Christine Emba frustratingly vague. The new sexual ethic should be "willing the good of the other"? What does that mean in practical terms? How does that guide at what point in a couple's relationship should they start having sex? What does that mean to someone in high school versus someone who is in college vs someone who is working vs someone who is divorced?

[@freeindeed7]

The good of the other is pretty clear, unless you're selfish. Sex is intimate. It only belongs to a relationship in which sufficient safety and trust has been built...commitment, even, according to the Bible :). The good of the other means thinking of the whole person. The fear, confusion and insecurity which comes with sex apart from sufficient emotional connection has made clear why healthy marriage is the best environment for sex.

[@brucee8332]

We saw lots of Catholic and Episcopalians and Jewish cars that said, "I never lost it!"

[@jsharp3165]

Von Clausewitz. "War is the continuation of politics by other means." I only know that because I've seen the movie "Crimson Tide" a million times and Von Clausewitz's statement is quoted and debated by Gene Hackman and Denzel Washington.

[@theclades3967]

Wait... Kaitlyn is writing a book? Will there be an audiobook?

[@cuthalionxvi]

I believe she wrote "The Liturgy of Politics" already, which is how she ended up getting on the show. But I'm not sure what the new book is!

[@DianeMorissette]

Asian Jumping worms are actually a very big deal for gardeners and for commercial agriculture. It's been a big issue on the east coast, and they've been moving west. I'm horrified to learn they've reached California. They decimate the organic matter in soil. Not good! You may choose to not be concerned, but I am. That said, I do generally love this podcast.

[@reynadelikat6410]

Jumping worms in wisconsin? I live in wisconsin to get away from bugs and oogy boogys! Herlgjhagjwodheb 🤮

[@theCECkicker]

Good discussion. the end made me think of a Dallas Willard book, The Allure of Gentleness: Defending the Faith in the Manner of Jesus.

[@brandonkelley8685]

This interview reeked heavily of "listen we know your going to have sex with someone that's not your spouse, so here is the best insight we can give you when you have your "experience" or "encounter". Whatever happened to the don't fornicate with someone you're not married to? Is that wrong to teach now? Are we not to teach abstinence, but how to deal with your failure to adstain?

[@alicecarroll2923]

Fornication in this context has gotten trickier upon a deeper reading of the text. It is often defined as sexual immorality. There are also scholars who claim it means adultery or idolatry. From what I can derive from your comment, you do seem like someone who wouldn’t be able to see it as meaning anything but sexual immorality. I haven’t read her book, but I did get the impression that whether it was within marriage or outside of it, she had interpreted it as viewing people as objects or simply commodities in romantic relationships. I didn’t particularly enjoy this episode either, but it may have been for different reasons. The author came across as well informed and compassionate. As someone who has suffered sexual abuse and forced isolation from people in authority in the church and in my family, following all the rules didn’t keep me safe. Exposure to dating apps and other people have been an integral part in dealing with the terror of my past and present experiences, so I have a more positive view of those interactions. Sometimes, I post sources when I address varied readings of the Biblical text, but I do feel that God has not led me to a place in life where long threads like this would be productive for either party. I did notice your comment and knew it might not get a response and thought it merited one.

[@brandonkelley8685]

@@alicecarroll2923 wow, first and foremost I appreciate the thoughtfulness of your reply. Second I agree, she came across VERY well. It was thoughtful, compassionate and understanding. My issue with the interview is that in the book addressing a non-christian audience (which is fine) for the podcast to recommend this book for Christians to gleen from, there is a dangerous and worldly veiw of sexuality. Although purity culture got the intent correct everything surrounding "how" was damaging. The Bible explains that God intended that sex be between one man and one woman, the end. So to give people the idea that you can willingly have these experiences and encounters is dangerous. This does not cover the instances of force or coercion, like your past, but of the willing and active participants in a worldly view of sex . If that makes sense. It's hard via written text to come across right.

[@janeef1183]

@@brandonkelley8685 I understood this episode a bit differently. What I saw was an example of how Christians can engage with and influence our (secular and pluralistic) culture at large. Since the author is talking to non-Christians and Christians, I don't think there is an expectation for those outside of the faith to abide by the abstinence until marriage standard that those inside the faith do. However, I saw an attempt to try and find common ground (the realization that this current sexual culture is lacking) and then collectively build from there bringing part of our perspective into the conversation.

[@ryanthomasjones]

Skye: War is when people are using it to make money Phil: Thanks everyone for supporting us on Patreon. Haha, no shade intended. It was just a humorous juxtaposition.

[@jonbrashear702]

The SBC needs to evaluate how it's theology effects these attitudes and that it is not just bad pastors. The imbedded theology effects how people view everything around them. Deconstruction TikTok developed because of these theologies that get imbedded that are not being stopped.

[@jdarrell9477]

Hello all. Was listening to the movie review podcast. Tell Skye, that there was at least one movie about the dead body planted by the British in WWII. Tell him to check out "The Man Who Never Was" with Clifton Webb.

[@enigma1865]

What is this Prom thing of which you speak?

[@veggiet2009]

First murder hornets, now jumping worms!?

[@veggiet2009]

I like the new segment but I wish Phil had asked Kaitlyn and Skye if they would like to be concerned

[@aosidh]

"in this house" signs are a joke among Seattle leftists - we associate them with the wealthy neighborhoods that vote less progressively 🐱

[@brucee8332]

I'm not sure...Culture War is a term that has been invented to divide us further. In America we like to express our feelings: hence the bumper stickers of the '70's, hence even my fence sign "In this home we believe...", hence BLACK LIVES MATTER, hence "Thank you Jesus," and "Thank you Science!" But calling it war gives it more violence as well as division. That divides us so much further. Most of us, particularly on the middle radical left or right, particularly Christians who are pacifists, dislike this kind of rhetoric! I oppose reproductive restrictions on women's bodies, but I will not go to war, or even adopt a violent stance over this. Jargon like "Virtue signalling," Culture Wars," etc. dehumanize our conversations.

[@bman11714]

As a person who grew up in Southern California, I’ve had little to no experience with the SBC, so this is all new to me. It would be “helpful” to hear from someone at the SBC to hear their side of this story.

[@Tupelo927]

Use the internet to get their side of "the story."

[@thezenlu]

I'm curious; did you treat the catholic priest scandal with the same level of scepticism, or did you immediately say "yeah that is terrible, those guys deserve jail." And things of that nature...

[@bman11714]

@@thezenlu I honestly haven’t looked into that.

[@jacquelynnparker6629]

The report was commissioned by the SBC.

[@alicecarroll2923]

They do have interviews with people have left their positions in the SBC. There may have been one man who hadn’t left, but it was before this report was released.

[@virginiacrosby4160]

I had a "gefilte fish" bummer sticker

[@GorMcAlister]

The point about mission justifying and misleading is right on target, but the mission is not something that I think is well understood. Jesus commissioning of His followers in Matthew was to teach people to "do" all that He commanded. Christians have by and large ignored that and taught people to "believe" what Jesus taught. Belief is clearly important and the means of accessing God's grace, but that doesn't negate the emphasis of Jesus teaching on how we should behave. Take a look for yourself, who is His family, who is the person who builds upon a rock and on and on.

[@grimtraveller7923]

@Gordon McAlister: The New Testament writers don't really differentiate "belief" from "doing." They are part of the same process. You believe, then you do. To put it another way, belief is not mere mental assent. James put it a good way when he said "I'll show you my faith by what I do." It helps sometimes to have an understanding or at the very least a knowledge of the Greek words that have been translated into English, because so many of our English words, especially the way we use them today, are quite different from even the English used in most of our bibles. "Believe" is a great example of this. When John writes that whoever believes in Jesus through God will have life eternal, that doesn't really convey the sense of what is being said. A better way of putting it would be "Whoever is believing" or "Whoever keeps on believing" ~ which then leads onto exactly what "belief" is. It's an action, a continuous action. Your point is a good one because it highlights how we so often read scripture through a modern English speaking and thinking mindset that did not exist at the time of translating, let alone writing. And we need to look at scripture through the mindset of the initial writers and hearers/readers.

[@lbamusic]

re: SBC sexual abuse report - should this be surprising, given the organization was originally founded by slaveowners and those who favored slavery?? There was no greater breeding ground and opportunity for sexual predators who could practice sexual abuse and do it legally, since slaves were property, not people. Horrific rapes were commonplace as well as breeding of slaves when the slave trade ended and slaves could no longer be obtained from abroad. Degenerate breeding of slaves was how they maintained their supply of new slaves. Incestuous sex was ordered between mothers and sons (where motherfuc*** comes from), fathers and daughters, brothers and sisters, etc, and was the rule rather than the exception. So its no wonder that endemic sexual assault was passed down genetically and/or culturally, and is still very much evident today in the SBC, as the report reveals

[@andrewwhittaker2908]

Those worms are CREEPY!!!!! I watched the video.🤦‍♂️

[@veggiet2009]

Can we start the "I found it/I lost it" sticker thing again. Except make "I lost it" be about losing yourself to find something better???

[@joedapoboy]

“I lost it” just sounds like I lost my mind

[@ancientpurple]

I guess we now know where the groomers really are.

[@Justanotherconsumer]

They prefer the term “ephebophile.”

[@jarrod5179]

That's fine about the worms and all, but how does that pertain to the butt?