5E Is Designed So Everyone Wins (Ep.

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Dungeon Craft

Dungeon Craft

Күн бұрын

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@felipeuseche332
@felipeuseche332 Жыл бұрын
I thought 5e was a heroic game until I played a Call of Cthulhu campaign. Running around fighting against overwhelming forces, shattering their ownd minds and breaking their bodies just for a chance to save the world from human evils and horrors beyond. The lovecraftian universe is cold and uncaring, but seeing my players fight for what their characters believe is more than moving, it's inspiring. They are as immortal for me as some of my favorite characters from other media. That is why you need villains, death and risk. There is no power otherwise. No true fantasy, either. Just an adolescent's dream.
@DUNGEONCRAFT1
@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Жыл бұрын
Love Cthulhu.
@maxpower3050
@maxpower3050 Жыл бұрын
A D&D session were you can’t is a story with participation. Even in the 80’s “Choose your Own Adventure,” there was a chance you could die.
@DUNGEONCRAFT1
@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Жыл бұрын
Loved those.
@misterverloc
@misterverloc Жыл бұрын
I kept playing D&D 5E with my group because I thought my players were attached to the game and their characters. They recently told me that they are actually bored with 5E and ready to try a different game. We are playing Old School Essentials next week and I couldn't be more thrilled!
@DUNGEONCRAFT1
@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Жыл бұрын
Let me know how it goes.
@joesgotmore
@joesgotmore Жыл бұрын
So, so true. My most memorable games of D&D were when a character died. Not died then came back because of a revivify spell. Each time it meant something. First time was when my character who spent half the campaign plotting against the others because he was manipulated by a sentient sword, dies at the hands of his once companions after fighting to redeem himself and failing to convince them. Another was holding the line as a barbarian who was all about battle and honor so his companions could escape. Or as a DM when a player died the party went on a quest to find a cleric that could resurrect them because one of the players that lived fell in love with the one who died and never told them.
@FatalKitsune
@FatalKitsune Жыл бұрын
Having just finished a 4 year low-to-high level campaign, we're switching from 5E to Savage Worlds. But the first thing we did was do a Dungeon Crawl Classics one-shot, Sailors On The Starless Sea. My players LOVED it. They were tense as they explored the dungeon because anything could mean death for their little army of peasants and as they made their narrow escape from the sinking ziggurat at the end, each of them only having one character left, they were laughing and cheering.
@asquirrelplays
@asquirrelplays Жыл бұрын
I'm currently working on a video to review Mausritter, and that book said this: "The only way for danger to be meaningful is if the outcome of failure is meaningful." That game expects you to die. I take a lot of jabs at 5e on my channel, and there's always someone that will say "you're just bad at GMing" when I say it gives the players way too much power. Glad you made this video. Also, you mentioned nobody wants to GM for 5e. "Old Grognard Says" did a terrific video on just that a little while back. He did a bang up job putting into words what I had been ranting about. Do recommend.
@DUNGEONCRAFT1
@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Жыл бұрын
Thanks for sharing.
@heroeshomebrew
@heroeshomebrew Жыл бұрын
Players come up with more inventive and creative solutions to every challenge or problem put in front of them when they know one misstep can kill their character. And getting XP for gold instead of killing creatures in old school games means that not every encounter is automatically going to end up with combat.
@elgatochurro
@elgatochurro Жыл бұрын
Not only that but combat is much safer for them in pf2 and 5e They WANT the dangerous combat option these days. The modern systems are designed around that. I prefer Savage Worlds where is a death spiral with quick simple, easy to follow rules that help create a pulp like fantasy as adnd was meant to have.
@heroeshomebrew
@heroeshomebrew Жыл бұрын
I have yet to try SW but it’s been on my list of systems to try for years. I’ve been playing White Box and OD&D lately and feels so fast and light I’m loving running it.
@beowulfshaeffer8444
@beowulfshaeffer8444 Жыл бұрын
Yes! XP for GP is so much more interesting, and so much easier to track.
@Newnodrogbob
@Newnodrogbob Жыл бұрын
You’re allowed to award xp for things other than combat. I find this whole culture of 5e rules bashing kooky. You all are totally fine making judgement calls about which rules to use, but deciding how much xp a particular encounter solution is worth is iNsAnE! Sure, the DM made up the entire world and everything you will encounter tonight, but it’s Ok. It’s still a rigidly structured and totally fair game because…he wrote down everything that he made up yesterday, and he’s not going to change it tonight. 😂
@elgatochurro
@elgatochurro Жыл бұрын
@@Newnodrogbob Its not OUR FAULT that WOTC sold us an undercooked handbook... most editions and games also include clarifications and rules handbooks later just solving whatever messes popped up... 5e? no AND ITS SIXTY DOLLARS
@BigbyOShaunessy
@BigbyOShaunessy Жыл бұрын
You’re absolutely right. Without great risk there is no reward. I’m sure there are many players who are satisfied with going through the motions of playing, satisfied by the imagery in their minds. I see these people as those who are proud of their participation awards. TTRPGs are an abstraction of real life, set in an imaginary environment. They’d no better place to take risks because the consequences only affect one’s imagination. Not all heroes survive IRL and they shouldn’t in fantasies. A fantasy hero not performing outrageous acts at great risk is empty of meaning.
@LionKimbro
@LionKimbro Жыл бұрын
I call the modern style of play, “playing house.”
@Jason-sj7xi
@Jason-sj7xi Жыл бұрын
“Optimization” should be optimizing an awesome story, not making it mathematically impossible for me to get hurt, or limit me to cheese so I can then be 30x more effective in combat than everyone else because I’m a aracockra/assassin/wizard/Druid/twilight cleric.
@InternetHydra
@InternetHydra Жыл бұрын
Unironically, Playing Pretend is a better form of roleplaying experience.
@emjtucson
@emjtucson Жыл бұрын
And the attribute arrays, smh. Rolling your stats creates character.
@LionKimbro
@LionKimbro Жыл бұрын
@@InternetHydra STRONG AGREE. But I play D&D for the game.
@salamshalom
@salamshalom Жыл бұрын
🤣
@ClockMonsterLA
@ClockMonsterLA Жыл бұрын
The old school term for player groups who take character death off the table is "Care Bears" and it was always a pejorative back in the day. I just don't understand how it became the norm today.
@bennixx138
@bennixx138 Жыл бұрын
Go Deathbringer!!! Show em that preview! I've recently gotten back into playing 5e after almost a year of only playing old school. The difference is glaring and unfortunately, most of the people I play with don't want a deadlier game. I enjoy the stories we create, but even that is different because I've found I far prefer emergent stories now than a vaguely disguised railroad.
@adreadangel420
@adreadangel420 Жыл бұрын
I’m currently running Shadow of the Dragon Queen, and to add a sense of urgency I have the dragon army on a calendar ala Red Hand of Doom. If my group misses a session, I advance the calendar one day. That can make things a little harder as those missed sessions add up over time. So far it’s worked out well.
@DUNGEONCRAFT1
@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Жыл бұрын
Thanks for sharing.
@smaspa8627
@smaspa8627 Жыл бұрын
SHADOWDARK. Seriously, it’s everything I love about 5e, nothing I don’t, all the cruft pulled out and wrapped in an economy of word choice I’ve never seen in another rpg
@Klijpo
@Klijpo Жыл бұрын
Shadowdark is amazing. Most of my players love it, but one prefers hardcore maths so is now leaning to Pathfinder! :)
@daelusraine2989
@daelusraine2989 Жыл бұрын
Getting like 10 fights in a night with 4th level characters... Meanwhile in our 5e campaign we'll get through one during overland travel and then the session is over...
@docnecrotic
@docnecrotic Жыл бұрын
It's a pretty neat 5E mod. Not the first one to do old school inspired 5E play, but it's good to see the concept continue. I'd rather stick to OSR style play myself, but this game is a nice homage.
@HouseDM
@HouseDM Жыл бұрын
Love Shadowdark! Definitely would NOT consider it a 5e mod. That’s quite reductive to the actual thought and intent that went into its design, imho.
@Klijpo
@Klijpo Жыл бұрын
@@HouseDM Agree. It borrows the bones of it's system from 5e, but it is its own thing. Wouldn't even say its that 'old skool', in that it's mainly a tone and not really mechanical. Plus it is a complete game, unlike most OSRs. And it does it's own thing too.
@satturnine7320
@satturnine7320 Жыл бұрын
The elevator trap in Ravenloft with the sleep gas save at -4 hurdles you up into the high tower and then the players awaken to Strahd chewing their faces off…yes, resplendent!
@k-aw-teksleepysageuni8181
@k-aw-teksleepysageuni8181 Жыл бұрын
THE BEST TRAP. The party sent Rictavio (van Richten) down to that level with another party member while they searched for Argynvost's skull... Rictavio and the Rogue ended up getting killed by that trap. But then another player who really liked Van Richten took the Gift of Zhuudun in the Amber Temple just to True Ressurect Van Ricthen. We just ended that session and they are about to assault Castle Ravenloft for a final time.
@satturnine7320
@satturnine7320 Жыл бұрын
@@k-aw-teksleepysageuni8181 Our priest and rogue managed their saves but Strahd used his mirror image and distracted the thief and charmed the priest into casting hold person on him, then the vampyre went to work ]}:(€
@tyrrollins
@tyrrollins Жыл бұрын
Ah yes-save or die mechanics. Nothing like just dying to random shit. Arbitrary high difficulty is as bad as the game being to easy.
@jefffaller5155
@jefffaller5155 Жыл бұрын
@@tyrrollins Arbitrary? Everyone knows you don't F w/ a vampire. And if you do, you'd better be certain that you have the deck HIGHLY STACKED in your favor. And even then... bad stuff happens. Point is, telegraph and make sure the players have the requisite information.
@tyrrollins
@tyrrollins Жыл бұрын
@@jefffaller5155 My comment isn't about vampires its about save or die rolls and situations. They arent interesting and are an archaic ttrpg mechanic. If you like meat grinders they are probably fine but games where death is routine is as bad as games where it doesn't happen.
@gregdavidcraft
@gregdavidcraft Жыл бұрын
When I was running 5e, I created an Excel spreadsheet where I entered the PC stats, and it then generated a balanced generic monster based on those stats. I would then use the special abilities from the Monster Manual, but use the stats from the spreadsheet. It could also generate quick/weak or slow/powerful versions, or versions designed for range. It made the battles less of a foregone conclusion. One of my favorite things about 4th edition was that the battles were always close, and that created tension. 5e has no tension.
@Inari007
@Inari007 Жыл бұрын
4E was WAY ahead of its time. 5E is really a huge step backward LOL I hear PF2E has adopted many ideas from 4E LOL
@foldionepapyrus3441
@foldionepapyrus3441 Жыл бұрын
5E stock can have tension, but it really helps to have fewer players as a smaller party can suddenly find even demigod like powers get overwhelmed if they play badly or roll poorly. And with so few players you can more easily run larger swarms without slowing the game to a massive crawl. I do like your Monster jiggering system though, and aid for something I think any 5E DM ends up doing a fair bit, inventing actually challenging situations.
@michaellopate4969
@michaellopate4969 Жыл бұрын
I hated 4e on release but have definitely grown to appreciate how finely tuned the balance was, especially as a DM. Truly the only balanced edition, though at the cost of limiting player freedom. Always the cost of a tight system.
@Comicsluvr
@Comicsluvr Жыл бұрын
The two things I loathe most of all are Hit Points and the Long Rest. You mean that we defeated a (fill in the blank BBEG) today, slept all night, and in the morning not only are we fully healed but now we're even HARDER to kill? GURPS was a great system for avoiding this. You could have 100 xp (having survived a year of playing every week) and STILL be taken out by a lucky hit to the head or some vital organ.
@DUNGEONCRAFT1
@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Жыл бұрын
Thanks for sharing. What would you like to see next?
@NigeltheLucky
@NigeltheLucky Жыл бұрын
I used to think the same thing as you did until I started running a game for some kids. I realized death doesn't need to be on the table, but losing is still an option. If you run or lose, this orc army is going to take over this town, your guy will be in the dungeon for a few months, then we start from there. I mean in the long run you only win or lose because the DM decides if you win or lose
@DUNGEONCRAFT1
@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Жыл бұрын
With kids that works.
@NigeltheLucky
@NigeltheLucky Жыл бұрын
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 even with adults. Some adults will cry and leave the table when you hit them too hard. I was running Morg Borg a few weeks back and my, all adult players, pushed back on the level of misery I put them through even before the deaths. I ultimately agreed with them, that game is misery on top of misery. Not to get too far from the point I was getting at. Death… while is big as far as stakes go, isn’t the ultimate stakes, because dnd has a back from the dead mechanic so easy I find death to be rather whatever. Threatening players with misery has much more stakes ultimately. The character dies… yeah ok, so what they get raised in a few days and come back to find their favorite town in slavery, the king dancing for coppers by an outhouse, and everyone they had as friends serving the villain… that is stakes for me. I see your point but I prefer mine on this one I’m a fan of your class professor 👍🏾
@liamcage7208
@liamcage7208 Жыл бұрын
I really like AD&D's -10 HP. We still use it to this day in our Pathfinder 2e sessions. At negative HP you are incapacitated / unconscious and bleeding out. You lose 1 HP per round cumulative with other persistent damage (poison, on fire, etc.). People can die really fast once they hit 0 HP so the whole party gets a sense of urgency to save the downed PC before its too late. This leads to real heroic and dangerous actions on the part of the party as they try to save their friends. Some of the best stories of game play revolve around these heroic, self sacrificing saves.
@keithkannenberg7414
@keithkannenberg7414 Жыл бұрын
I think the key is to have some actual tension in the situation, which it sounds like your group is managing. The 5e rules make it too easy to establish real tension in most situations. Then characters can pop up and be fully functional again after just a little bit of healing, so no real consequences. When I played with the -10 rule, a character who got knocked out needed a week of rest and recuperation before being able to do anything more than move slowly, unless he received a Heal spell (6th level, which most of my players never got high enough to have).
@lugh.i
@lugh.i Жыл бұрын
The "death is not on the table" reminds me of 7th Sea 1e/2e, where the tension and excitement doesn't just come from dying, but from the emotional and social stakes at hand. The game and book are really honest about that and the GM and players enjoy the game starting from that premise. Maybe 6th edition needs to be more honest about characters being super hard to kill. I know they won't and characters will be unstoppable machines from medium levels as in 5th, but one can dream.
@krinkrin5982
@krinkrin5982 Жыл бұрын
5e wants to be a combat-heavy game, but the combats in the introductory scenarios are very unbalanced, and combat in general is very swingy, with people gaining and loosing hp all over the place. At the same time, most effects that players (and monsters) could use for a distinct advantage have been neutered, so the only real deciding factor is who can get the sliding scales of hp down to 0 (and keep it there for 3 turns) first.
@RecklessFables
@RecklessFables Жыл бұрын
7th Sea is Pulp and it is pretty great for that.
@lugh.i
@lugh.i Жыл бұрын
@@krinkrin5982 I'd say combats in a lot of scenarios and levels tend to be unbalanced, for one side or the other.
@lugh.i
@lugh.i Жыл бұрын
@@RecklessFables Yeah! I've had a lot of great and intense combat and roleplaying moments in that game and it doesn't turn my character into an invincible super hero or drags for hours without intention.
@alexanderkreitner8275
@alexanderkreitner8275 Жыл бұрын
To highlight the philosophical changes, I was just reading an old AD&D Ravenloft Adventure today that actually said: "Don't have Senment kill any of the PCs (unless they do something really stupid)". "Stupid" was even italicized to emphasize it! Definitely a different mindset now.
@TonyJ1776
@TonyJ1776 Жыл бұрын
Back in 81? 82 I had this wizard with that 1d4 hp that was like 2hp after roll. Get into my first dungeon, DM rolls a random encounter trap while my wiz is in a tight hallway and oil is poured out on the wizard followed by a flaming cinder (rolled straight out of the 1ed DM's guide). Fail save, dead. That was my first experience, it was rough but we didn't cry. I got over it and we moved on to have years of fun playing TTRPGs. That encounter will never be forgotten.
@DUNGEONCRAFT1
@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Жыл бұрын
It was a mighty death.
@euansmith3699
@euansmith3699 Жыл бұрын
I can see the advantage in not having the PCs die. It allows for longer, more involved story lines; and it means that the party can totally fail, and suffer non-deadly consequences of their failure. They can lose respect, resources and NPCs.
@MichaelG485
@MichaelG485 Жыл бұрын
Exactly. There can be consequences other than death.
@DUNGEONCRAFT1
@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Жыл бұрын
True, but death should always be on the table.
@euansmith3699
@euansmith3699 Жыл бұрын
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 "But, I didn't even eat the salmon moose." 😲💀
@daelusraine2989
@daelusraine2989 Жыл бұрын
I haven't run 5e in a very long time. I run shadowdark now with BX and 1E by my side for reference. And my uncle started running 2E again THAC0 and all... Its wonderful
@kaijuultimax9407
@kaijuultimax9407 Жыл бұрын
I wish more people would talk about the issue of 5e being built so heavily in-favor of the players that it causes MORE negative reactions when bad things actually do happen to players. When the game is rigged so heavily in your favor (advantage die, inspiration die, multiple death saves, etc.), it's almost inevitable that when someone's character dies or fails a quest objective, they'll accuse the GM of cheating or singling out their character for some unsaid reason.
@DougVehovec
@DougVehovec Жыл бұрын
The bit about vampires really sells the sizzle with clarity. Yes! That's a great way of articulating the elegant simplicity.
@DUNGEONCRAFT1
@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Жыл бұрын
Thanks.
@unnefer001
@unnefer001 Жыл бұрын
Here's an idea. How about each table play they way they like with the game they like? Why do I care how someone else has fun as long as no one is getting hurt?
@stevendavis7628
@stevendavis7628 Жыл бұрын
+++ totally agree. One of the best things about (1980s) Champions was that you earned very few experience points per session /adventure... (One to 3 points which you could allocate add you wished..characters started with 200 to 300 points less a bunch of disadvantages)... So you were improving by 1 percent per session..maybe. Though your character build was highly customized, you were largely who you were going to be in the game. Change the "build budget", change the type of game. I've come to prefer just playing "first level" characters and focus on role playing
@DUNGEONCRAFT1
@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Жыл бұрын
I played some Champions back in the 80s and early 90s. Fun game.
@stevendavis7628
@stevendavis7628 Жыл бұрын
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 - the developers were local here in the SF Peninsula which was extra fun and how I stumbled into the game. I still have my play test copy of Fantasy Hero and maybe Espionage :) In the 80s, D&D was far from inevitable..in fact it was kind of like now... there were so many weird and wonderful games that came out..and some that became huge like Call of Cthulhu...and many that still thrive. (Do you go back to "The City State of the Invincible Overlord"?) To me, classic Champions is still the best "Pimp my Character" system..but if you want to focus on role playing, give me a first level character and a good GM in any system.
@BlueFrenzy
@BlueFrenzy Жыл бұрын
Well, tomb of horrors is not precisely a good example for anything. In order for a player decision to matter it needs to be an informed decision. When the consequences are arbitrary, like it happens in the tomb of horrors, player decisions doesn't matter, since they have no control over what is going to happen. That's telegraphy is important and risk asessment is an important part of decision making. There's a very big difference in agency between "we know that if we are spotted we are dead but we will do it because it's our best shot" than "a rock falls on your head. you are dead. You could have chosen to not to walk". This is where tomb of horrors fail misserably.
@DUNGEONCRAFT1
@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Жыл бұрын
Point taken. What would you like to see next?
@Merlinstergandaldore
@Merlinstergandaldore Жыл бұрын
What do I think? I think you shouldn't be dissing my AD&D death's door rules, that's what I think! 🤪Seriously, I agree wholeheartedly - the easy-mode play of 5e can be frustrating... especially if you have a DM who leans into it in obvious fashion! I was once in a game where a player got disintegrated by the spell, he was done. The DM announces that his Goddess Patron came to him in the plane between worlds and gave him just enough hit points to continue the battle, and was restored. This was common. No one died. There were literally no stakes, he was just pushing us through the novel he'd written.
@Dinofaustivoro
@Dinofaustivoro Жыл бұрын
In early edition of D&D players had to solve all the challenges, not the characters, so "builds" did not exist. In 3rd to 5e characters solve everything with their stats and "options", so players actually play by making "the build". The moment of decition making is completly shifted.
@BillAllanWorld
@BillAllanWorld Жыл бұрын
"If death isn't on the table, the game has no meaning." - Professor DM Simple concept, but frankly this statement is pure genius. I find that most newer players (many of whom have only ever played 5e) are afraid of losing their characters so much.
@kasperv967
@kasperv967 Жыл бұрын
Good thing all the older editions of DnD still exist along with dozens of other fantastic OSR systems. If the people want a grittier, deadlier, experience, there's no shortage of other options.
@NewfieMovieReactions
@NewfieMovieReactions Жыл бұрын
I agree with all the points you made. Which is why I'm switching to Shadowdark instead of 5E. :) Keep making great content Sir!
@Doodle1776
@Doodle1776 Жыл бұрын
100% agree that death should always be on the table simply for the fear factor involved. But 5e and Pathfinder want to make sure that death is a trivial matter. Like shooing gnats away. Annoying but not a threat at all because even if you die you can come back again with a simple handwave. Even resurrection magic should come at a cost or be more difficult to use each time it is used. But when you can't kill a PC unless they fail three death saves (the odds are in their favor for a better than 50% chance of success), have to hit them into negative the same number as they have positive, then they short rest, get all or most of the HP back in an hour, then go on like nothing happened. Or they long rest and wake up the next day fully healed. Making healing potions and healing magic almost meaningless and forget any resource management, or challenges that don't have to be over the top difficult to create any risk. This then bogs the game down because you have to place massive bags of HPs and damage dealers to threaten players, dragging things out to utter boredom. Compare that to my current C&C games where low level monsters are still a threat to mid-level PCs because everyone isn't a bag of endless hit points and reviving abilities. Combat is 100x faster than in 5e.
@lauramumma2360
@lauramumma2360 Жыл бұрын
You nailed it. I had to change my 5e game a lot. The first session of 5e we ran RAW, everyone of the players voted it too easy and not satisfying. This was the green light for me to introduce drastic changes, which I did at the time. Currently I am working on adventures fir a different games system, and playing (as well as assisting in an OSE/AD&D based game). I will return to 5e house rules sometime, but having fun with other systems right now.
@michaellopate4969
@michaellopate4969 Жыл бұрын
If 5e combat was too easy, that's your fault as a DM. Design more challenging and dangerous encounters.
@lauramumma2360
@lauramumma2360 Жыл бұрын
@@michaellopate4969 I was using WotC 5e Box Starter Set and using their premade encounters and only the rules in the Box Set. I fixed what I needed to fix to have the kind of game everyone wanted.
@coryjohnson4139
@coryjohnson4139 Жыл бұрын
Why is death at -10hp in ad&d the worst rule? Genuinely curious. I always thought it struck a nice balance but I know I could be missing something important.
@flavorgod
@flavorgod Жыл бұрын
I agree. If you die at 0 that means your state is binary, either standing or dead. You are never unconscious.
@thomasgrable1746
@thomasgrable1746 Жыл бұрын
Back in the day we used the Arduin critical hit tables, which were freaking lethal. No long rest would cure being ripped in half.
@JoelFeila
@JoelFeila Жыл бұрын
I would argue that in the old tome of horrors my actions would not matter since weather I live or die is just random luck. Touch this orb maybe it does nothing maybe it kills you no save. That is not a action that matters that just cheap. I also don't have a problem with character being in a dying state. Death saves, negative hp, these are ways to put a pc in a dying state. What I do have a problem with is every battle just being a fight to the death. You can have player loose with out dying. Examples, The town in over run and they have to flee, the bandits get away because the party took to long.
@cooperb4449
@cooperb4449 Жыл бұрын
5e was like my time in a logging camp in Alaska. We ate like kings everyday and in under 2 months i was sick of all the food and was just eating ice cream for dinner half the time.
@Tanglangfa
@Tanglangfa Жыл бұрын
This is why I don’t usually use CR. What fun is it if you KNOW that you can beat the dragon? He’s ancient and you’re level 2. Do what you need to do. And yes he has an army of Kobolds who worship him. A literal army. Because he’s an ancient dragon. So yes, you might want to tread lightly and use honorifics when speaking to him, IF he will even listen to you before gobbling you up like a pizza roll.
@marcosmiotti7399
@marcosmiotti7399 Жыл бұрын
Your game Deathbringer was a great inspiration for making my 5E games grittier, and also reducing the PCs' exponential power leveling. My fellow-players and I have more fun now playing our Sword & Sorcery version of 5E, with PC deaths every session or so, than the official corporative 5E in which nobody dies.
@DUNGEONCRAFT1
@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Жыл бұрын
Thanks. Glad you're enjoying it!
@magwen9
@magwen9 Жыл бұрын
With all the WotC debacle , I turned to CyberpunkRED and wow was it refreshing to see the nervous and deadly system play put. FNFF sure has its slower moments, but it was very refreshing as a newbie at ttrpg in general
@JohnnyJohnnyGalt
@JohnnyJohnnyGalt Жыл бұрын
I think the death/injury thing depends entirely on the kind of game you're going for. *Failure* should always be on the table, *Defeat* should always be on the table, but there are settings and scenarios where random death just isn't in genre. For example, Super Heroes "die" all the time, but it's seldom due to bad luck or a poor decision. They die at the end of epic story arcs, or as a shocking opening to a new adventure. A Super Hero game where Spider-Man can catch a .45 slug to the lung from a random thug and bleed out just doesn't sit right with me. On the other hand, a Super Hero game where Spider-Man can get the snot kicked out of him, show up too late to save his girlfriend, see innocent people suffer because he screwed up? That's *perfect*! D&D has been a game of epic super heroes for decades at this point. I love a tense dungeon crawl, to be sure, but simply put that's not the fantasy most mainstream D&D players are looking for these days. I do agree that genuine challenge is tricky to achieve with 5e. I think I'd like to see a "Heroic Injury" system of some kind, where dropping to 0 HP gives you some kind of dramatic effect, a cool scar beneath the eye, the shattering of a magic weapon (which can be reforged at the end of a quest) or getting captured and spirited away to another area of the dungeon you must escape or be rescued from. Basically, defeat doesn't have to be permanent, but it should be both possible and dramatic.
@DUNGEONCRAFT1
@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Жыл бұрын
Thanks for taking the time to share.
@punkdigerati
@punkdigerati Жыл бұрын
"A game is only a game if you can lose something" I don't know if that's true in the global sense. There is an entire industry of computer games that tons of people play that dying is a mere inconvenience, you can't lose anything and they still want to play it. It's not for everyone, but that doesn't mean it's for nobody.
@klausdalgaard
@klausdalgaard Жыл бұрын
I fully agree with Prof DM. I was recently at a table where we had an encounter I was certain would end in a TPK. I was actually excited to go down in a blaze of glory, and was even thinking up new character ideas. However, the party not only survived but won the battle. I was actually disappointed, it didn't feel right, and I ended up leaving that table after the next session.
@LeFlamel
@LeFlamel Жыл бұрын
Was the TPK avoided due to player/character skill or did the GM handwave? Cuz otherwise it kinda sounds like you just wanted to die lol
@klausdalgaard
@klausdalgaard Жыл бұрын
@LeFlamel The DM also expected a TPK, and also seemed excited about it. After that battle, and after a long rest, our next encounter was an adult Green Dragon. Took us 3 rounds...
@DUNGEONCRAFT1
@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Жыл бұрын
Exactly! It's happened to me.
@LeFlamel
@LeFlamel Жыл бұрын
@@klausdalgaard dang that's embarrassing
@dyonstadd7852
@dyonstadd7852 Жыл бұрын
For me, its the reason DM'ing 5e is not fun. I know the players have a ton of fun living the power fantasies, but you have to bend so many rules to challenge the players in any shape or form. The coolest part of a DM is not knowing the result of some crazy scenario you made, or how the players will react to it and then getting to be a spectator while they work through it. There are just so many ways to cheese the system or "win" in 5e.
@GreylanderTV
@GreylanderTV Жыл бұрын
For the most part, I don't think players really enjoy it all that much either. "God mode" is momentarily fun, but becomes boring very quickly. Players get stuck in a trap of getting what they want, not being able to give that up, and not really realizing why they are so unsatisfied.
@Skulliver-t8q
@Skulliver-t8q Жыл бұрын
I agree. I would gladly GM DCC or Shadowdark on next to no notice and feel like I could just roll with it. Improv and creativity still have a place there. 5e just feels like "murder math". That bead shoving until the players win. I understand I can tweak it but, I can run other games stock, right off the shelf, and present challenges which are fun for me and for my players. I don't like games where you win in the build. What is the point? Just because you put a narrative hat on it, that does not make it a good time. I have found that games like Blades in the Dark , DCC or Shadowdark have really grabbed my players because NONE of us know how anything will turn out. Playing to find out, with some sense of things being high stakes, make even a simple game dynamic. It's so much more fun.
@taragnor
@taragnor Жыл бұрын
Yeah there's a reason 5E has such a DM shortage.
@CheezMonsterCrazy
@CheezMonsterCrazy Жыл бұрын
@@taragnor The reason this seems to be the case is that 5e has a much more general audience, many of whom have a lower level of investment, or simply lower level of experience, in the hobby. It is still remarkably easy to find a 5e game to join with almost zero notice, without having to dig too deep through the internet. For the most part, every other TTRPG exists in the realm of enthusiasts. Heck, I've met avid players of 5e who don't even know there are third party publishers for 5e content, much less hundreds of other psuedo-medieval fantasy TTPRGs on the market.
@mechanussunrise
@mechanussunrise Жыл бұрын
I agree and at the same time I'm the opposite. I had a lot more fun running 5e than playing in it. When I finally got to do more playing, I realized that we were spending hours on combats that we had no chance of losing. If I want combats where the outcome is predetermined, then I want them to be over quickly and much simpler, requiring a much lighter rules system for combat. It really felt like players showing off to each other with no other purpose. Plus when the game makes it so much about what options your character is made with, then many players want to skip to the part of the game where they use all those abilities which is combat 80% of the time. So its a mismatch between rules and intended gameplay.
@DavidSmith-mt7tb
@DavidSmith-mt7tb Жыл бұрын
There's something about old school DnD that allowed player skill to be something beyond metagaming. Not sure why modern games can't still allow for that while having the mechanics they do, but they do seem to push you to the limited options in the book rather than the infinite possibilities outside the book, and honestly most players are using the same strategy every battle, doing the same thing. Wizards seems to be making the game more and more like a videogame every edition, which plays well into their strategy of VTTs and AI DMs I guess.
@keithkannenberg7414
@keithkannenberg7414 Жыл бұрын
They've been trying to make D&D more like video games for decades. That's why you have so much healing (you usually start every encounter at full health in a video game), so hard to kill (most games you just respawn after death), every player gets new "whiz-bang" powers every level or two, all the classes are "balanced", etc. Very few of these changes are good for a TTRPG. Playing a video game, whether MMO, Action RPG or other, is just a different experience.
@this_epic_name
@this_epic_name Жыл бұрын
As a somewhat new player, I ABSOLUTELY fell into the trap of scanning my character sheet whenever a situation was presented. Instead of thinking through it with my brain (through the lens of my PC) and asking what I could do out of the infinite possibilities, I instead went straight to my character sheet to see if there was anything that could potentially be useful or if anything sparked an idea, a la "oh I could use *this*!" But that enables a paralysis of sorts, because if you *don't* find anything particularly helpful in your character sheet, you fall into the trap of thinking there's nothing you can do in whatever situation you're in. Now, I try to think through things as a person (specifically, my PC) would. Then, if something on my character sheet *happens* to be helpful, so be it -- I'll use it. In the end, it's probably a matter of having more familiarity with the rules and the special things your PC can do -- and having it all at ready recall -- so that you're able to combine the infinite possibilities outside the book with those inside the book in a sort of "idea stew" that you can pluck from.
@murderyoutubeworkersandceos
@murderyoutubeworkersandceos Жыл бұрын
its not metagaming. Based on knowing character options, picking a class by looking at what it can do and how it development looks like is metagaming. Wanting a rogue to disable traps, open locks and sneak is metagaming. With that approach every lvl should be almost randomly assigned. Its not my fault 5e is a dumbed down trash that breaks its own rules to make monsters weaker, but assign them higher cr. Its not my fault u, knowing what a player character is capable of, decided to pitch 4 heroes against a single monster cr=avg party lvl, as if action economy itself wont kill your boss. Let them pick their path, u fix the monsters and fight team vs team.
@DavidSmith-mt7tb
@DavidSmith-mt7tb Жыл бұрын
@@murderyoutubeworkersandceos what you're talking about is minmaxing, though people do often refer to it as metagaming. Though really, metagaming is using knowledge you as the player know that your character doesn't. I have no issue with minmaxing. I do it a ton. I'm talking more about looking at options beyond the expressed mechanics. Old school DnD expected this. It had rules for attacking when you use your action to do that, but you could do anything on your action, and players often did unusual things that were quite effective. The more you played, the more you as a player learned to do these types of things, and that is meta knowledge gained by playing the game with often multiple characters. Your character's ability to do something clever was based on your own as a player.
@murderyoutubeworkersandceos
@murderyoutubeworkersandceos Жыл бұрын
@@DavidSmith-mt7tb no, its not. Choosing a rogue to sneak isnt minmaxing, or metagaming. Reading the wizard spell list to pick the 2 spells u gain each lvl isnt metagaming, or minmaxing. If they often refer to that as metagaming, then they r fucking wrong. Characters r aware of the rules of the world - they know its good to take cover against arrows, or that their spells have saving throws they can work to improve. What options beyond the expressed mechanics?!
@TheRealKLT
@TheRealKLT Жыл бұрын
There are many good games where "death" isn't "on the table". That's a perfectly acceptable modern design choice. However, those games include alternate consequences, because you are correct, it isn't a game if there isn't the potential for loss of some kind.
@antigrav6004
@antigrav6004 Жыл бұрын
Flea as a bard with disadvantage on appearance, but advantage on every other CHA roll would be great.
@_TheHorror_
@_TheHorror_ Жыл бұрын
When running Waterdeep Dragon Heist I asked the players if they would be ok if death was off the table for the game. If anyone was killed they would be out of the scene, gain a permanent lingering injury and return on one hit point in the next scene. Nobody objected and we played on. My intent was to run a short focused campaign and I didnt want character replacements to break the flow of the story. I need not have worried. Nobody came even close to dying at any time anyhow..
@DUNGEONCRAFT1
@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Жыл бұрын
Glad it went well. What else would you like to see?
@JoeFlamenco
@JoeFlamenco Жыл бұрын
Play to your audience is what I do. I’m not trying to reinvent the wheel or give my players a game experience that they didn’t ask for, trying to arbitrarily add challenge doesn’t add meaning. Listening to the players and letting them choose the meaning and help them create it has worked best for me.
@DUNGEONCRAFT1
@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Жыл бұрын
As it should.
@FamBoren
@FamBoren Жыл бұрын
The game should be a challenge, but also fun and a collaborative storytelling. Dying to easily tends to make players scare and overly cautious. I've been in games where it took forever to go down a 50' hall just because the entire party examined every single inch of that hallway with every possible spell or mechanic "just to be safe" it took ages. However, invincible characters aren't fun either, but there should always be options to avoid permanent death. Player agency i important and stupid moves should cost, but only if the player(s) are aware of the the situation. Situations like; DM: "You see a door. What do you do?" Players: "we enter", DM: "ok you are all dead" (no save) is deadly but not fun. So; DM: You see an iron door and you feel an eerie aura of imminent evil and decay which makes you turn around and never come back, What do you do? That gives the players som agency, still, should they enter they should get a feeling that if they stay they will die. What I'm really saying is that death shlould be there, but is should be a rare and memorable occasion when it happens. (at least that is what I think)
@DUNGEONCRAFT1
@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Жыл бұрын
I agree, as long as they know it's a possibility.
@FamBoren
@FamBoren Жыл бұрын
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 It should be a definite possibility, but I really like ways to postpone "the final (no return) death" so that the players know/learn when to act boldly and when to play smart. Once learned, its fair game to play do or die.
@Jamesdalf
@Jamesdalf Жыл бұрын
Your players handbook with the blacked out section makes me laugh every time. I absolutely love it!
@moodymac
@moodymac Жыл бұрын
I laughed out loud at that. Pretty rare.
@rixaxeno7167
@rixaxeno7167 Жыл бұрын
He should have crossed out Saving Throws too
@michaellopate4969
@michaellopate4969 Жыл бұрын
funny for us, but how fun for you as a player to die to a couple unlucky die rolls? And then what, to restart at level 1? With the same party where everyone else is 5 levels up on you?
@moodymac
@moodymac Жыл бұрын
@@michaellopate4969 We don't think it's funny when characters die. It should be tragic, dramatic or heroic though. It's not really unlucky to die, in a dungeon fighting monsters, and opening trapped chests and doors...... I prefer to think of it as lucky to survive, sticking their noses in to places better left alone.
@moodymac
@moodymac Жыл бұрын
And it's good to have powerful friends between you and the baddies when you play (or restart) at first level. Great fun.
@patchworkdragon2588
@patchworkdragon2588 Жыл бұрын
I totally get this as a DM. Over COVID I was running three online games a week. First Group had 2 Players in it who decided that characters dying was a traumatic experience for them personally (their words) so they wanted death off the table. It got to the point in this group that if I presented any physical risk they cried foul and said I was trying to TPK them (I’ve never killed a character in any of these games). In the end they left the group and the smaller group were actually great to DM for. Second Group were more old school in their approach. I had monster combat encounters that would wipe the floor with them, making them pick and choose their battles and come up with the most hairbrained schemes to defeat the monsters. I loved DMing for this group and they had a lot of fun. Third Group were all power gamers who built their characters so strong and multi classed to get the juiciest features that combat was a maths nightmare of trying to calculate how high to go with the challenge rating just to create a halfway decent encounter. They never dropped below half hit points and would wipe the floor with monsters 5 CR higher than them - they were like tanks with magic powers, and would spend ages deciding how as a group how they should attack (I had to rule in the end that in combat, quick decisions are needed). They enjoyed the game but it was stressful for me to run. Learning from all this is I like the games where risk and death are a factor and players have to work as a team to support their individual weaknesses. Even then there will be challenges that they have to think outside the box to be successful in the encounter.
@DUNGEONCRAFT1
@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Жыл бұрын
Thanks for sharing.
@mikemcmahon67
@mikemcmahon67 Жыл бұрын
Oh boy you’re not kidding! Last session, our party of 5 11-12th level characters took on 4 modified iron golems AFTER completing a multi session battle against an adult red dragon with only a short test between. The biggest challenge was they started running out of spell slots. The ONLY reason we had any death saves was because sections of the floor opened up, dropping two PCs into lava after they failed dex saves. It was a great and memorable session, but it makes me wonder how I maintain tension after they take their next rest.
@DUNGEONCRAFT1
@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Жыл бұрын
Thanks foe sharing. I concur.
@pdubb9754
@pdubb9754 Жыл бұрын
When I became obsessed with D&D in 1978, my Dad, a cardshark of sorts, asked questions along te lines of "How do you win" and "what are the stakes?" I remember trying to explain that there really isn't winning and losing in this game in any traditional sense. He didn't get it, but I did, and that's all that mattered. Not having clearly defined wins and not having stakes was problematic for my dad's enjoyment, but it was not problematic for me. A lesson I learned over the years is that there is more than one way to have fun and games. Fun can be about rolling dice and strategizing combat sessions where there are stakes. But fun can also be about thinking over a cool character design and collaboratively imagining a great story for that character. In that kind of fun, it gets tiresome if your character keeps dying before you get to imaine that great story. In the former type, it is problematic if the stakes are meaningless. think 5e is designed to make this latter type of fun easier to come by at the expense of the former type.
@DUNGEONCRAFT1
@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Жыл бұрын
It's about balance. Thanks for sharing. What else would you like to see?
@pdubb9754
@pdubb9754 Жыл бұрын
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 My favorite Dungeoncraft of all time was the Reviled Society series. I also loved MacDeath and the Keep on the Borderlands series.These stories from your table do a great job capturing that old style of play, where meaningful stakes heighten drama and player engagement. More of that, please!
@DUNGEONCRAFT1
@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Жыл бұрын
@@pdubb9754 Share those videos! Working on the Lost City now. Takes time. Thanks for your patience.
@apilgrim8715
@apilgrim8715 Жыл бұрын
Thanks for the post, I liked reading it.
@scottwalker6947
@scottwalker6947 Жыл бұрын
In OSR, and older versions of D&D you played people who became heroes. 5E you play super heroes in plate armour right from the start. When I first played 5E, and saw all the healing options, I thought there would also be a optional rule for inserting little white boxes with a red cross into your game.
@DUNGEONCRAFT1
@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Жыл бұрын
Kinda yeah.
@MrIdylex
@MrIdylex Жыл бұрын
In order to give my players (level 10) a challenge in my 5e game, about halfway through our campaign I stopped worrying about ability bonuses to all my monsters attacks and just add flat bonuses to all of their damage rolls. Mooks do regular damage plus 5, tough enemies do plus 10, and bosses do plus 15. I don’t have to have a bunch of spellcasters or monsters making 5 attacks a turn to do tons of damage. Really improved my game
@Niyucuatro
@Niyucuatro Жыл бұрын
In my group we are all begginers. We are playing one of the official modules wich in theory is balanced for 4 to 6 players with only 3 players that are not optimizing at all. for now we are finishing almost all enounters with an inch of our lives and we are having fun.
@Darkzen24
@Darkzen24 Жыл бұрын
The first 5 or so levels, in the base system, are decently balanced. When you add in all the additional options from the new books and/or higher level play, 5E begins to fall apart as a system.
@DUNGEONCRAFT1
@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Жыл бұрын
That's cool. If it's working for you, don't change it.
@ColdNapalm42
@ColdNapalm42 Жыл бұрын
The key reason it's working... 1) You are all still low levels I assume. Honestly, it's near impossible to break things before level 5. It is literally impossible before 3. The earliest one could break something is level 4. With 8 needed for not human. But a lot of these broken optimized things kick in at double digits. The problem is that it doesn't even get hard to break the game at those levels. 2) You are all still new. I assume even to TTRPGS in general. In which case, you won't even have the basics in your head about game breaking stuff so you won't know it until you run into it directly. Have fun while it lasts.
@user-cg8gb7fz6x
@user-cg8gb7fz6x Жыл бұрын
Old man yells at cloud
@codychavez9839
@codychavez9839 Жыл бұрын
Yup and as a player that grew up playing Advanced D&D 2e Ravenloft and 3.5. Myself and most the folks I play with realized we weren’t having much fun with 5E. There’s little to no challenge. So back to 2E and back to fun!
@INCIESSE
@INCIESSE Жыл бұрын
I started with 3rd played 5 then got my hands on 2e and 1e ad&d and om never going back i love ad&d and the rules cyclopedia becmi era
@codychavez9839
@codychavez9839 Жыл бұрын
@@INCIESSE sounds like you found the magic of the old ways. Glad to know there’s more folks out there…
@aaronsomerville2124
@aaronsomerville2124 Жыл бұрын
@@INCIESSE This is the way.
@retrodmray
@retrodmray Жыл бұрын
Absolutely 💯 right! 🤓👊
@daedalus1
@daedalus1 Жыл бұрын
2nd Edition was the pinnacle of AD&D.
@Ishpeck
@Ishpeck Жыл бұрын
I must be spoiled because my players die _a lot_ and they have never once complained about it.
@BarbarosaAlexander
@BarbarosaAlexander Жыл бұрын
I pulled the punches a bit for my absolute noob players for the first session or two, so they could learn and get into it without the frustration of dying. They came close to dying a few times. I told them in session 0 that dying was possible, and there were no death saves. I think it worked out well. They didn't know when I spared them, and so they were in fear of the death whose hand I stayed for a time. Now, four sessions in, if the dice take them away, they are taken. But they are invested in the game and the outcome. They have a handle on the rules, and play with critical thinking.
@DUNGEONCRAFT1
@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Жыл бұрын
Cool!
@TheGaboom
@TheGaboom Жыл бұрын
On the topic of optimizer types "not playing the game well" - I'd contest this point. A player who enjoys poring through books, and derives enjoyment from a complete understanding of its mechanics & systems isn't failing to play the game well. They are just enjoying a different aspect of the game, in a different way than you are. Its comparable to speedrunners; searching for glitches, understanding frame data, mastering all the movement mechanics, etc. Is that how most people 'should' play the game? Not exactly, but it isn't the speedrunner playing the game 'wrong' either. Its worth noting that none of these 'loopholes' as you describe them actually stop the player from RP'ing in game. Such a player could very well RP a character who is friends with the fey, calling on their aid regularly for the transformations. It does lean more towards superhero style of game when the party is so powerful at high level, but it can be fun to RP gods and conquerors. (Though as a GM, I'd prefer to run godbound or mutants & masterminds for high power games like that) I agree the game is too easy for my taste; and its why I often implement rules which increase lethality, adjust resources available (rest mechanics), and limit resurrection. And for my players who enjoy the optimization process, I introduce new character building mechanics/bans/etc depending on the campaign to keep aspects of the game they enjoy fresh for them as well. (After all, if it isn't obvious what the 'meta' is at the start of a campaign, they can enjoy the process of solving it again - and likely wont hit anything as busted as they've found in an unchanging meta.)
@zyronos8292
@zyronos8292 Жыл бұрын
I absolutely love the redacted Death saving throw screen shot. Was amazing. On the size the game I am in has had a lot of the no death stuff happening and I hate it. If my character dies I just roll a new one but I am about the only one who does. Just this last game 2 characters in the party Died (or should have) when they wondered off alone. However, after both were confirmed dead, one of the players got all upset and stated they would not make a new character because they had spent hours making their character. (Side note actually making the character only took about 10 mins, what they spent hours on was the super elaborate backstory that has had next to no relevance in the campaign.) So the DM made some bs reason how when my character found their bodies a random scroll of True Resurrection happen be nearby. And Yes I might have tried to mess up the DM'S plans with my character as he wanted me to cast the Scroll but I am a Barbarian. So I did what a Barbarian does best. I built a fire and burned the scroll as an offering to the gods. I then carried both their bodies back to town where our DM has a lvl 20 Cleric npc (basically as long as our body can be recovered we will never die because of this cleric).
@Goshin65
@Goshin65 Жыл бұрын
Oh my, that is awful. I don't think I could play in something that meta.
@daelusraine2989
@daelusraine2989 Жыл бұрын
Rub the name off, all stats are reduced by 1... Wash, rinse repeat.
@alienspaceshaman
@alienspaceshaman Жыл бұрын
should have had a funeral pyre then found a new group
@learyth
@learyth Жыл бұрын
This is precisely why I only ask for a couple of paragraphs of back story. Someone hands me pages of back story I hand it back. I don't have time to read your novel. If that's what you want, go write a novel instead. I just need the basics of who they are and where they come from. A hook or two into the campaign is nice but that's it. Your first level character isn't going to be related to the king or a long lost godling or whatever without an OK from the DM first so don't waste time writing that into the backstory. Keep it simple and concise.
@user-dd9dh9kw5c
@user-dd9dh9kw5c Жыл бұрын
@@learyth In my games you dont get a backstory until level 3
@Noobs_of_Gaming
@Noobs_of_Gaming Жыл бұрын
People always say ttrpgs becoming videogames is a bad thing. I freaking love videogames. You just need to find the right one for you and your coop-partners
@DUNGEONCRAFT1
@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Жыл бұрын
To each their own.
@christianschweda2530
@christianschweda2530 Жыл бұрын
The "altered" rules for death saving throws was hilarious, thanks for the good laugh! Also 5e dm here and totally agreeing. 👍
@DUNGEONCRAFT1
@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Жыл бұрын
Thanks!
@Razsteroid
@Razsteroid Жыл бұрын
One thing that's ironic and should be mentioned is actually how DEADLY 5e is at 1st level.
@danielsommerlykke9475
@danielsommerlykke9475 Жыл бұрын
Less deadly than other D&D versions, but it is a clear contrast to how boring combat becomes after levelling up.
@michaellopate4969
@michaellopate4969 Жыл бұрын
@@danielsommerlykke9475 This might come as a shock, but your players shouldn't still be fighting a few goblins as they level up. Put them against appropriate challenges.
@danielsommerlykke9475
@danielsommerlykke9475 Жыл бұрын
@@michaellopate4969 That goes without saying. The difference is massive however - Dave Thaumavore did a video showing how a 5e 1st level fighter had the attack capabilities of a 5th level fighter from AD&D. More hp as well pr. level.
@MrOmega-cz9yo
@MrOmega-cz9yo Жыл бұрын
Purple Rain! 👍 I have also called 5e "The Math Game" starting at about 9th level. I have also noticed that many players become bored with 5e at about the 2 year mark, and start to look for something more challenging.
@StoryboardsbyStuffPOP
@StoryboardsbyStuffPOP Жыл бұрын
My go-to homebrew for encounters is to present the players against tough monsters but halve the monster HP. It’s less of the chipping-away-indefinitely, and it’s lethal.
@ogreboy8843
@ogreboy8843 Жыл бұрын
I'm pretty sure there are lots of ways to measure success and failure in a TTRPG besides the threat of death. ...But given that the core mechanics of DnD are fundamentally about answering the question of whether monsters or a group of heroes would win in a fight, it does seem odd to bend those mechanics to accomodate players who don't want that to be a question.
@DUNGEONCRAFT1
@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Жыл бұрын
Nice way to put it.
@vast3394
@vast3394 Жыл бұрын
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 for this table i recommend fate, or coretex!
@davidswain6117
@davidswain6117 Жыл бұрын
I started my son on 5E with the excellent Phandelver set, because D&D is important. I like the character survivability- for children. Soon, I'll switch to Savage Pathfinder. It's there in the name-Savage Worlds for swingy fights and nailbiting adventures. :)
@DUNGEONCRAFT1
@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Жыл бұрын
For kids that can work.
@stav1369
@stav1369 Жыл бұрын
It’s true 5e by default is certainly a power fantasy but in fairness to 5e, the DMG Workshop at the back of the book (chapter 9) has some very nice variant rules to increase the challenge for gaming for tables that like it that way. This is often overlooked by those that over criticise 5e.
@michaellopate4969
@michaellopate4969 Жыл бұрын
You don't even need variant rules. Just make encounters more challenging, and keep increasing difficulty until the balance is where you want it. Or don't let them long rest, keep them moving and combat gets harder and harder as resources are exhausted. You don't have limitless healing. People who claim 5e is "too easy" just aren't using their brains or have bad DMs.
@adammcclendon5258
@adammcclendon5258 Жыл бұрын
Great video! For some reason "Never go against a Sicilian when death is on the line!" Kept playing in my head, lol. Agree about the 5e power creep as well as the sentiment of "are you really playing if risk isn't involved?"
@BrentStewart
@BrentStewart Жыл бұрын
Death is part of the game. If you really are concerned with having "That Guy" at the table put together some new house rules where players who die become ghosts of some sort. Give them something to do. Or let them be the "my character's father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate" player.
@thefaz3744
@thefaz3744 Жыл бұрын
I feel like games where death isn't a part of the question (not D&D, but a system built for this) can work, if built for it. For example, a game where death isn't the lose condition but there's a time limit, and failing encounters results to losing a few days or weeks of the time limit. I agree with the sentiment a game with no fail state can be boring but I disagree in the idea that death is the only failstate; you can still have stakes and tension without the threat of dying - losing time in a time limit scenario, losing not easily replacable equipments and magic items, important NPCs getting killed off, etc.
@DUNGEONCRAFT1
@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Жыл бұрын
Thanks for sharing.
@captcorajus
@captcorajus Жыл бұрын
Wow Dan.. this was so WELL STATED! I too love a lot of things about 5E but everything you mention is why I don't play it.
@DUNGEONCRAFT1
@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Жыл бұрын
Lol. I was JUST watching your video on the DMG this morning. My Lost City is coming soon and your channel will get a shout-out.
@captcorajus
@captcorajus Жыл бұрын
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Oh wow, thanks! I was planning on shouting out this video with my next one! Great minds and all that!
@evilminion4989
@evilminion4989 Жыл бұрын
I like RAW...and honestly its deadly, if the game is soft... im inclinded to look toward the dm for the reason for it.
@joat110
@joat110 Жыл бұрын
C&C is a blast, be warned search for traps on chests 😂😂😂 It’s liking gaming back in the 80’s! Thank you so much.
@aaronu6870
@aaronu6870 Жыл бұрын
"They didn't play the game well, they read the book well" boy if that isnt my biggest complaint about every pathfinder table I've sat in or seen. Also, death can be off the table without loss coming off the table. I had one party see a city destroyed because they failed. Another was imprisoned by intelligent monsters and used for ransom, which they had to pay back. Both were losses, neither stopped the story. That said, I'm also not afraid to kill players and they all know it, so its a huge relief for them when a TPL isn't a TPK.
@Noobs_of_Gaming
@Noobs_of_Gaming Жыл бұрын
"If death isn't on the table, the game has no meaning" only is true if the meaning of dnd is tension. I think it is often overlooked that you can play RPGs for other reasons like doing silly jokes or solving mysteries.
@DUNGEONCRAFT1
@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Жыл бұрын
Hmm I guess so, but my riddles have dire consequences if not solved. Lol
@michaellopate4969
@michaellopate4969 Жыл бұрын
You don't even need death on the table. "The entire party is knocked unconscious, and groggily wakes up only to find the village you were defending nothing but a smoking ruin. The few survivors curse your name, and your reputation as a hero is severely tarnished." That sounds like a pretty dire consequence to me. You don't need DEATH on the table to have consequences for failure.
@jeremymullens7167
@jeremymullens7167 Жыл бұрын
The problem is really that if you follow the suggestions of 5e game design and dungeon master advice. Players can assume they can win every encounter presented because it’s been tailored perfectly for them. The players almost have to actively try to lose to fail. Anything else is a narrative decision by the DM
@charlieblocher7456
@charlieblocher7456 Жыл бұрын
There are also ways to make going down hurt without being death at 0 hit points. My house rules are that: A) Whenever a player goes down, they get a Bane die until they can complete a Long Rest (a negative d4, per the Bane spell), that increases in size (d6, d8, etc.) each time they go down. I also use Bane dice for attacks from vampires and other monsters with level drain, and those require powerful magic to remove. If they get past a d12, they die. B) Whenever a player goes down, they cross off a death save they can fail before they die, which resets after a long rest. It makes players think twice about their tactics when getting knocked down and getting back up has a real penalty attached to it. They're more complicated, than death at 0 hit points, but they serve their purpose and use the game's existing mechanics to do it.
@DUNGEONCRAFT1
@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Жыл бұрын
Thanks for sharing.
@aureliomanalo
@aureliomanalo Жыл бұрын
I'm only taking it easy on my players because they're new. I've told them you have a couple more sessions to absorb the rules and then it's absolutely cut throat. Great video, professor!
@DUNGEONCRAFT1
@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Жыл бұрын
Thanks.
@Gabriel-vl2ft
@Gabriel-vl2ft Жыл бұрын
Some of the problem is the players don't know how some rules don't work or how some skills are unintentionally OP... if they have never DM'd a game. All a player sees is, "I'm doing good". And once they see that... they won't won't to change that fact. Leaving the DM to pick up the pieces of an encounter that was a breeze and a non-challenge which didn't get the desired reaction the DM wanted, and the players just looking at it as a win for the PCs.
@DUNGEONCRAFT1
@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Жыл бұрын
Thanks for sharing.
@Goshin65
@Goshin65 Жыл бұрын
This is why I play Deathbringer with Basic Fantasy (streamlined B/X). Deathbringer keeps it simple but allows for player creativity and innovation, while using ascending AC, d20 roll high, and Advantage/Disadv (the best part of 5e). The peril is very real, but at the same time you've got Deathbringer Dice (bonus dice) to help out if you just hit some bad rolls at a crucial moment... but DD are a finite resource! When your luck runs out you're likely to be making a new character. It strikes the right balance... PC death is a strong possibility, but doesn't happen as often as it did in B/X... where I buried more PCs than ever survived to 3rd level.
@DUNGEONCRAFT1
@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Жыл бұрын
Thanks for purchasing DB. I'm currently contemplating reducing the ability scores from 6 to 3-4. Thoughts? Do you care or is it more important that it align with already existing D&D material?
@Goshin65
@Goshin65 Жыл бұрын
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 I started with B/X back inna day, so I'm not married to 5e standards... I was accustomed to bonuses running +1 to +3 (if you were super lucky). I also don't use 5e adventures much as I don't care for most of them. As it is, I limit new L1 PCs to a max of 5 in any one attribute to start, more in line with old-school. I do like that DB PCs are competent from day 1, but reducing max stat to 4 would still leave them a lot more capable than B/X PCs were. Do you plan to leave build points at 8 or reduce those also, I wonder?
@Sunwolfe
@Sunwolfe Жыл бұрын
@@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Do it!
@DUNGEONCRAFT1
@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Жыл бұрын
@anathamon kinda true
@harkejuice
@harkejuice Жыл бұрын
I absolutely love the system in Knave 2e, damage at 0 means damage to your inventory and slots are replaced by injuries. I've never seen terror in the eyes of my 5e party so real. Of course, I've since adapted the system for 5e mwahahaha.
@SummerYeti
@SummerYeti Жыл бұрын
I mean, ppl play games for experiences outside of the mundane real life. Winning is important since losses are lessons to help you win. Imo DnD is to provide a heroic experience which is why our skills and abilities even at the start are more powerful than common folk within the stories. Play the DnD you want and worry less about where society tries to push you.
@MontegomeryLoL
@MontegomeryLoL Жыл бұрын
As a DM I've really been enjoying a recent campaign I set up to specifically play into 5e's strengths. But *hooooo boy* has it highlighted for me just how much workload there is to trying to run 5e blindly.
@torreyintahoe
@torreyintahoe Жыл бұрын
I'm DM ing 5E for my daughter and her friends. There have been many times where they easily could have been snuffed out. I could see it becoming more lop sided now that they're at 5th level.
@faust7918
@faust7918 Жыл бұрын
I think the best 5e supplement that put death on the table was Adventures in Middle Earth, it's low magic system made it so healing was rare and dear god did our characters die. By the end of the campaign every player had a character that had died due to no resurrection magic.
@MamanYossi
@MamanYossi Жыл бұрын
Thanks for another great video PDM!, when death is on the table its exciting, fun and squeezing the creativity out of the players. Truth is, we took a break from 5E and playing Shadowdark and Call of Cthulhu and having a blast. The real magic is to play with fragile characters.
@DUNGEONCRAFT1
@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Жыл бұрын
Thanks!
@erictroup5094
@erictroup5094 Жыл бұрын
I agree with your general premise, and the very reasons mentioned in the video are why "i've been trying to convince the friends who keep asking me to run them through a D&D game for their first TTRPG experience, to try something other than 5E. My one quibble is the idea that death is such a necessity. There are plenty of ways for players to "lose" that don't involve killing their character. Many pulp or superhero games kno'ck characters unconscious rather than kill them; they could fail to stop whatever thing they're trying to prevent in the overall adventure goal. They could look like fools to the villagers when forced to return with their tails between their legs. Having said that, I am not as opposed to character death overall as I used to be. I just don’t like the idea of it being a “gotcha“ option. “Tomb of Horrors“ would definitely not be my kind of adventure, module, for that very reason.
@DUNGEONCRAFT1
@DUNGEONCRAFT1 Жыл бұрын
Thanks for commenting. What would you like to see?
@CJOwen
@CJOwen Жыл бұрын
I'll be running The Fantasy Trip for my group in a little bit. Polar opposite to 5e. But if it only takes five minutes to make your character, death is a little less traumatic ;)
@Hugh839
@Hugh839 Жыл бұрын
That's like the funnels that are all the rage now. Make a heap of characters in seconds, then laugh as they get mowed down in hilarious fashion! 🤣
@ColdNapalm42
@ColdNapalm42 Жыл бұрын
Umm...but it only takes me 5 min to make a 5E character too...
@priestesslucy
@priestesslucy Жыл бұрын
5 minutes to create the character, 50 minutes of role-play to immerse myself into her identity and become attached so I can enjoy the experience.
@priestesslucy
@priestesslucy Жыл бұрын
​​​​@@ColdNapalm42 same story in 3E and PF1 as well tbh, level 1 characters are lightning fast if you know the game or have the assistance of someone who does.
@ColdNapalm42
@ColdNapalm42 Жыл бұрын
@@priestesslucy however long you play to get attached is kinda irrelevant to the system. Nor is the time honestly. I've been attached to characters after 10 min or not cared one bit after years of play.
@Guy_With_A_Laser
@Guy_With_A_Laser Жыл бұрын
I've recently started DMing some Tier 3 (11-16) for my local adventure league group, and the thing about the monster's damage not keeping up with the player's HP really rings true. One module I ran had a powered up ancient copper dragon as its final encounter and aside from its breath weapon that was able to do over 100 damage to multiple characters, its regular claw/bite attacks were disappointingly weak compared to the massive HP pools of the party. Another adventure I ran I think I ended up basically tripling the power of each of the monster groups and the party still ran through them with barely a scratch. Actually posing a challenge to a party at this level without homebrewing the rules requires some really massively over-the-top power levels for the monsters.
@lugh.i
@lugh.i Жыл бұрын
Nice video, I haven't thought about the "80s guy rage quit so we need to make everyone win" sales point.
@kendiamond7852
@kendiamond7852 Жыл бұрын
It doesn't get rid of the guy, now he just sits at the table indefinitely. At least with the rage quit you weeded out the weak
@lugh.i
@lugh.i Жыл бұрын
@@kendiamond7852 Kinda agree with you there, yeah. I don't think the "players are hard to kill" is entirely bad, it just kinda dishonest to build a system like that and don't let GMs and players, your clients, know the game is going to be like that from the start.
@teh201d
@teh201d Жыл бұрын
Close but no cigar. It's not designed for players to win. It's designed for people who buy the book without the intention of playing to feel like they could win. The PHB (superhero fantasy) and the DMG (survival horror) are not compatible. They're sold to different audiences for different reasons. People who actually play modify the game to make it somewhat playable.
@cybermerlyn2
@cybermerlyn2 Жыл бұрын
Great video. Everything you mentioned is one of the reasons I left 5e, not b/c I hate the game, I was just tired of dealing with all the written rules. I missed the dungeon aspect of the game we had back in the BX days. This has pushed me to games like Lamentations of the Flame Princess, ICRPG, EZD6, Shadow of the Demonlord, Shadowdark and Mork Borg. It is hard to call yourself the hero when you cannot die. Is it more heroic to be a demigod and win every time or to be the town peasant who leaves the fields of their homeland, braves death and saves the village? Outside of the TTRPG sphere, we would have a hard time following a story where we knew the hero would have no chance to die, even Superman has to worry about Kryptonite.
@DavidSmith-mt7tb
@DavidSmith-mt7tb Жыл бұрын
In Swords and Wizardry I played a paladin with mid stats except his HP because I roll high on d8s. I played him like a paladin. Dude was like first to the fight, leave no man behind, etc. And there were numerous battles where he survived rounds of melee combat with only a few HP. One time I bumrushed a group of orcs at 1hp cause it needed to be done and killed them all and somehow just didn't get hit. The possibility for instant death made those moments epic.
@Skulliver-t8q
@Skulliver-t8q Жыл бұрын
Exactly. The complexity combined with nerfing any "Feel bad" portions of the game means that it's all just an amusement park ride that is slow and dull to run. I've found a new love for fantasy games by leaving 5e behind.
@keithkannenberg7414
@keithkannenberg7414 Жыл бұрын
Playing an unkillable demigod was a lot of fun when I was ten years old. I had a 300th level paladin who wielded a sun sword. But then I grew up.
@Xplora213
@Xplora213 Жыл бұрын
@@keithkannenberg7414yep, I think a lot of the old guard played as kids and know what immaturity is… the new game caters to that.
@DavidSmith-mt7tb
@DavidSmith-mt7tb Жыл бұрын
@@Skulliver-t8q well said. I'm actually a big number cruncher meta gamer type. Just cause I enjoy the puzzle of optimizing and/or the novelty of finding bizarre play styles, making stuff work that shouldn't work. But I don't want the game to be easy. I just want to play it the best I can. I've honestly always enjoyed more open leveled systems though, cause I hate getting features that are kinda meh after leveling for 2 months. In those games you can often puck up a stat boost or perk every couple weeks. You're always getting something yet it takes a long time to get overall way more powerful, so the game stays challenging.
@mr7oclock346
@mr7oclock346 Жыл бұрын
I have been working on supplemental rules. Basically, I lay them out in index cards, and a random table. One of the cards is a Reaper Card. When that card is in effect, there is a reaper present. That means no death saved and no resurrection. That way, we can explore different rules, there is an in game reason, and you don't have to stick to that rule for an entire campaign if you don't want to. It makes the game seem a little more like a board game, but my player seems to enjoy it
@PeteysPonderings1220
@PeteysPonderings1220 Жыл бұрын
You nailed it with the reason DM are in short supply for 5E. No wonder the "paid DM" demographic is so large now. Waiting for the new DnD to offer AI DM. 😊
@hircenedaelen
@hircenedaelen Жыл бұрын
My only real point of disagreement is when you criticised another table for playing differently to you. Just because you don't understand their fun, doesn't make them wrong or something. The only right way to play ANY game is one where everyone is having fun, and if that table was having fun, then its fine
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