6.5 Creedmoor vs .308 Win - BALLISTIC GEL TEST

[@joehuff4025]

I shoot a 308 because I have for 40 plus years, it’s always done what I needed. I only have 600 yards to shoot so I’ll keep shooting my 308. I’m sure the 6.5 is a fine round. Shoot what makes you happy.

[@itsjustme7777]

This is a comment I appreciate. Shoot what you want and love. I have both a 6.5 Creedmoor and a 308 Winchester and love shooting them both.

[@ronws2007]

I agree. I have always liked .308 and have a few pieces in that chambering. And now I have a 7 PRC that may become the next sliced bread thing for me. Some might say that is overkill for a whitetail at less than 300 yards. But it will do the job and always have enough energy. And that is also why I use the Precision Hunter for that one (175 gr ELD-X.) But my .308 rifles have good accuracy and various appetites. One likes 150 gr, another likes 165 grain, another 168 gr, and yet another that likes 180 grain. Shoot the gun you like that does what you want and never mind the naysayers. We will never run out of naysayers, we can only give them some distance and keep up with our own happiness.

[@andrettski8686]

@@itsjustme7777 Agreed, I only entered this Precision Rifle shooting a couple years ago and just picked 6.5 CM because the guys I shoot with were all getting those rifles, both cartridges are great whichever one chooses.

[@neglectfulsausage7689]

find a 150 grain bullet in 6.5 and you'll have less wind drift. You'll be throwing the same mass downrange.

[@sasquatchrosefarts]

​@@neglectfulsausage7689 no. 208 grain 308 off the shelf ammo is readily available .... and by basically all accounts, it's stable with 1/10 twist. It's.not even close. They are two totally different cartridges. 6.5 + 308 both have a place. And they are vastly different. One has less than two thirds the recoil of the other...... but one can hunt any animal south of Canada.

[@FlabbyBro]

I'm glad that they take community suggestions seriously and actually do them. So many KZbinrs/companys don't.

[@cmuck42]

Great 🎉

[@thelittleguy-ih8nv]

I use both. As far as hunting. As a big game guide in colorado I will say it seems like the 6.5 typically zips through before it has time to expand. Chased and lost quit a few and based of the elk we chased over a mile (no exaggeration, tough animals) the entry and exit were pinky sized.

[@willbaum7140]

Caliber choice aside....... you're clearly using the wrong bullet if you're not seeing expansion. The all new rage of uber bonded and high BC bullets and almost created more issues than it has solved. If you're rifle will shoot it, then grab Partitions and cure all your concerns over lack of expansion.

[@sas_za6305]

I used a 300 win mag and that is vastly superior over either of the two smaller cartridges. Its got a flatter trajectory and has MUCH higher energy delivery. If you are not winning with the 308 or 6.5 go for the 300 win mag. Its in a different class.

[@shanehebert396]

Entry and exit don't tell the whole story. You have to cut the animal open and see what the damage looks like inside. Partitions, which have long been considered superb bullets, also leave pinky sized entry and exit wounds but are devastating in between.

[@OutsidetheEchochamber]

So many great bonded bullets that perform as well or better than the partitions with much higher bc. I know it’s cool to be old school but much better performing bullets these days. Probably the most significant development in shooting last 25 years? Bullets no question

[@arogue469]

@@sas_za6305 if it IS in a different class, then it's not really a valid comparison.

[@taylorcleblanc]

Comparison fail. 140 in the 6.5 vs 150 of the 308...come on. The 168 is the closest competitor to the 140 in BC and weight relative to weight range within the caliber. Then you throw a super light copper 130 at a great speed while going heavier in the 308. That should have been a 150 copper. The outcome would have, most likely, been repeated but it would have been a better comparison.

[@jdblackwell2873]

Thank you for this comment. It was an important one.

[@wadepederson8457]

When comparing different calibers, you have bullet construction and sectional density match this sectional density to the other caliber, and then the problem here is the velocity of the comparing calibers. One is definitely going to be heavier, and the other is going to be faster. With that in mind, the larger caliber, which is with its larger diameter, will be affected by cross winds more than the smaller diameter, and with the smaller diameter, it will be longer and penetrate more and the larger will penetrate less but will have a larger wound track through the animal and now they both have a # associated to it coefficient in the hunting applications and most any calibers that carry a coefficient of .375 or larger will work rather well to five hundred yards now the problem that keeps showing up is the smaller calibers and its higher sectional density, like the 140grn 6.5 and then it gets used on deer sized game its sectional density is much to high and a small hole and less bullet distortion takes place dropping to a weight of 130grn to 100grns smaller sectional density larger wound track quicker kill this is not a problem with the 165grn 308 caliber these things get no attention when the sectional density is lower the weight is good you get quick kills, the 6.5 CREEDMOOR with a 140grn bullet should be used on heavy game like elk unless of course it's a copper bullet now range is the problem it needs speed, Over the 45 years of my hunting I made these mistakes, 30 06 with a 200 grain nosler partition on deer it just poked a small hole and off they go, I dropped that down to a 165grn and the deer is DRT, so the simple solution is to pay attention to the sectional density #s .230 to .266 deer, anything larger is elk moose ect. I have done the stupid and learned the hard way, I have hunted deer with calibers from .224 to .323, I just use the right sectional density bullet , I see it all the time on hunting blgs to videos and some blaming the cal of rifle and selling it because they used the wrong bullets, so the 6.5, .277, .284 and the .308 all work very well on deer, so now if you watch these hunting videos and blogs and people having these problems, you will know exactly what the H is going on. Aim small, good hunting, GOD bless.

[@jdblackwell2873]

@@wadepederson8457 Could you try some punctuation and capitalization so I can tell when one sentence ends in a second one starts and actually better understand what I suspect is valuably probation you're trying to convey.

[@jwoak0913]

@@wadepederson8457 That is how I compare "apples to apples." You sir are a gentleman of the highest order.

[@juhanivalimaki5418]

True. Basically should define 1-2 scenarios, and find the best performer for that in each caliber. Then measure both drop & draft AND terminal ballistics with the same cartridge. Doesn't have to be similar bullet or something (though e.g. lead-free could be used as criteria for both). Of course the terminal ballistics should also be measured at the same distance(s). A bit harder to do.

[@x31moose]

Just finished a long range shooting class from 1000 yards to 1 miles in Utah. Understood why 6.5 CM is superior beyond 600 yards but most of us can't even find a 600 yards range near us and we hunt in much shorter distance. So where is the advantage of 6.5CM other than in a target range > 600 yards?

[@petecymbalak650]

really the difference up closer is recoil. That's about it

[@amarti53]

Did you even watch the video? Significantly lower recoil, and significantly better terminal performance (penetration).

[@JoeJohnson-i9d]

I’ve had both and 6.5 cm is overrated af, 308 Does everything the 6.5 did but cheaper and hits harder

[@leeturner3143]

Please circle back and show us the bullets recovered from the gel. Expanded diameters, retained weight, etc. Inquiring minds want to know! Thank you, great job.

[@chipsterb4946]

Yes please! I need to see those bullets.

[@MSPubducks]

YES!

[@VortexNation]

Ask and you shall receive. You can check out the recovered bullets and more in todays podcast. Thanks for watching! Mark B.

[@leeturner3143]

Watching it now, thanks!

[@timothym2241]

Does wound channel give some advantage to 308?

[@fabulousoffroaddesigns5080]

I read that data differently! If a deers lung cavity is 18" across, the 6.5 only emitted 1/2 of it's remaining energy inside the deer, while the 7.62 left 2/3rds of it's remaining energy inside that same animal. That is advantage 308 not 6.5.

[@triedproven9908]

Exactly. The lead 308 won.

[@titomish5914]

Keep crying

[@TheChiconspiracy]

@@titomish5914 Why would he cry? He's stating facts based on real physics... at realistic hunting ranges the .308 is faster and dumps more energy into the target with a wider wound channel.

[@titanamps3279]

Exactly. Permanent wound cavity is way more important than penetration.

[@petecymbalak650]

if only it worked that way

[@alejandrogonzales7022]

The two points for the .308 make it tough to beat in real world application. That stuff is everywhere because its been around for so long. During the lockdowns, it was very difficult to get anything at all where i live, but .308 could be found here and there. That being said, ive got items chambered in each of these and they are both awesome.

[@vitaly6312]

This is probably the only thing that is actually a good point, and I take reloading parts as part of the availability “bucket”.

[@ammbam]

The .308 was available because everyone else was buying the 6.5 cm. 😉

[@JoeJohnson-i9d]

@@ammbamcause people are retarded

[@davidthurman2267]

I love the fact y’all gave the viewers what they asked for. Caliber comparisons should be a new thing!

[@eddieengland9886]

I agree! I asked for this comparison a couple of months ago on another video. I felt a little foolish asking as a newbie to the 6.5 world but was pleasantly surprised to see them do it. I'm sure they had lots of requests for it from other guys trying to get the best caliber for their hunting needs.

[@dormanlong9619]

My thoughts, clearly for long range target shooting the CM has the edge. But for an all around hunting rifle I would take the 308 all day every day and twice on Sunday. First of all both of these rounds start running out of horsepower pretty fast after 500 yards. 98.5 % of all hunting is done under 500 yards with most of that under 200. And frankly many hunters have no business shooting past 300 yards at game anyway, doubt that, spend some time at the range prior to hunting season.... I believe wound channel matters as much as penetration, maybe more. I do want exit wounds which the 308 has pretty much always provided for me. Superior wound channel with an exit favors the 308. Plus for large game like elk and moose, the 308 rules between these two. And the CM offers nothing to compare to a 200 grain Nosler Partition if roaming in big bear territory. So IMO, target goes to the CM, all around hunting is clearly 308 territory.

[@JohnHughes-du8zj]

Agreed! Penetration is important no doubt, but so many of these type of tests seem to put way too much focus on it over things like wound channel. Given a choice of any 2 calibers/cartridges where both penetrate over 18" - 20" I'll take the one more likely to cause a bigger wound channel. It just seems like max penetration becomes unnecessary after a certain point.

[@GoodGuysCarry]

Great job on the video! I’d rather lean on the .308. The versatility in bullet weights and availability of ammo is a good thing.

[@mtojebogi]

Barrel life is a factor, 308 is nearly double vs 6.5. Also, it would be nice to see the gel on a load cell to measure the delivered "punch"

[@browtinehunts5323]

Larue says 10k barrel life on both their 6.5 creed and .308. Where are you seeing double at?

[@ChronicalsofAl]

I don't believe 308 barrels last twice as long as 6.5 cm.

[@frankgilliland3318]

I would not like to take on an Eland with a 147gr 6.5 creedmoor ,but would be quite relaxed to take it on with a 168 -180gr 308 Winchester . So i quess in my opinion the 6.5 will do for plains game here in South Africa up to a wildebeest (PROVIDED pin point bullet placement) ,which makes it less versatile . I have hunted all the species in South Africa for the last 30 years using a Ruger 30.06 using 168 - 180 gr projectiles , works for me.

[@eddieengland9886]

My 30.06 is always my go to rifle though I own and shoot often my 270 Winchester. I just picked up a 6.5 Creedmore simply because it was too good a deal to pass up and it's synthetic stock for the whitetail hunts in the rain. My others are wood stock and nicer rifles that I'd rather leave home in those conditions.

[@eddieengland9886]

If I'm blessed enough to make it to Africa before I die (not likely) my Ruger No. 1 in 30.06 is definitely coming with me!

[@inupik23]

You guys used a bullet weight on the lower end of spectrum for the 308 and a bullet weight at the higher end of the spectrum in the 6.5cm to compare drop and drift. I wonder how it would look with a 165gr out of the 308. The velocities would have been about the same too, bit BCs would have been a little closer together. Just food for thought.

[@m.a2928]

I like the video, well done; only down side i seen in it was the actual bullets selected for comparison, they were not well suited for comparing different calibers. The gel test is for comparing penetration for the most part, but the bullets selected were not comparable for this test, when comparing penetration that is a function of energy and Sectional Density(penetration ability based on diameter to length ratio); 140gr 6.5 has a sd per hornady of .287-.293 where 150gr 308 has a sd of .226-.233, you would need appx a 190gr 308 to have equal sd and expectation of penetration when comparing the 140gr 6.5 to 308 caliber. I'm not a 308 win fan boy dispite having a couple, i personally prefer the 7mm's and have a 30-06 for moose size game, but it would of been more on equal playing field if same/similar sd bullets were used to compare penetration and state either is better. Did enjoy the venturing out of the Videoing room and changing it up some, Just my 2 cents.

[@NathanJingles]

I definitely lean toward the 308. Much more availability and then reloading opens up a whole world that 6.5 can’t touch, big heavy bullets with amazing b.c. numbers. 6.5 is a fantastic flat shooter but availability is way more important to me especially after the last few years we of ammo shortages we just went through

[@eclipsegst9419]

There are tons of 6.5mm/.264" bullets for reloading. Maybe 7.62mm/.308 has a few more, but not to a degree that matters, either way you have more than enough choices to fit any need.

[@Nick-sx6jm]

@@eclipsegst9419 Its not even close. .308 has 3 times the bullet options and they are produced in much greater numbers, especially during shortages. You can also turn up 308 much more when reloading. Expect an extra 150-200 fps compared to the 6.5 you will maybe gain 50fps.

[@eclipsegst9419]

@@Nick-sx6jm I didn't deny there was more, just that it doesn't matter. 6.5 match bullets are like spears. 140 grain soft or hollow points will take any game that 308 will, and theres a bunch of lighter or heavier stuff if you want to tinker. Not sure where you get this 3x more though. Every site i checked it was like 1.5x at most. I can load my 6.5x55 well over stock loadings in a large ring Mauser reciever.

[@ammbam]

Grain for grain a 6.5 bullet outperforms the .30 caliber. You have to shoot way heavier .30 bullets to get similar bcs a 6.5 bullet can offer. Also the .308 was available during the shortage because everyone else was buying all the 6.5 cm 😉

[@JoeJohnson-i9d]

@@ammbamI had a 6.5 cm and I now own a 308 it does everything I need better in my opinion even at 1000 plus yards. 6.5 cm is wayyy overrated in my opinion

[@Edwinthe7th]

I must disagree with the decision that 6.5 won the terminal performance category. On all the ballistic gel targets, the permit wound cavity is visibly larger by a significant margin, less so with the copper bullets, but still more extensive. Penetration is nice for blood trails, but it should not be the deciding factor when considering terminal performance. FMJ bullets have excellent penetration but no expansion, so hunters should not select them for use on animals.

[@imafreakinhistorian2169]

Indeed

[@ronlowney4700]

The real story is when that heavier 308 Bullet hits bone, will if penetrate better than the 6.5 Creedmore? The answer is YES!

[@alejandrogonzales7022]

True. It would be interesting to see a full-spectrum, all inclusive test. Maybe using hog cadavers? Go through as many "what if" scenarios as possible like: Hhat if it hits bone? What if the animal is quartering towards/away? Through the breastplate? Spine/neck shots? Probably tough to get EVERY question answered, but enough to give is a good idea.

[@imafreakinhistorian2169]

I dont want a grizzly to have a blood trail to follow , "after he eats me" . I want my LARGE bullet to STOP him , BEFORE , he sinks his teeth into my spine .......please. Hence the definition of "TERMINAL BALLISTICS"

[@ronlowney4700]

Try using a 200 grain Swift A-Frame in the 308, or a well designed Terminal Ascent or Federal's Trophy Bonded bullets and see the difference in performance! Those bullets will penetrate bone Very Well! A 30 caliber 200 grain Swift A-Frame would take down a Grizzly Bear, but would I want to try that with a 6.5 Creedmore and any of it's bullets? Probably Not! 🤷‍♂️

[@joncook6331]

Great show! I have a 6.5CM, but I’ve shot plenty of both. I’ll say if I was big game hunting I’d feel better with a 308. But both are great cartridges!

[@madebyamerica81]

So would you prefer the 308 over 6.5?

[@joncook6331]

@@madebyamerica81 maybe just for versatility with the heavier bullets. But it’s a close call.

[@a6two]

You need to do more of these comparisions. I would like to see 7PRC vs 300WM that would be a cool one.

[@Nuke1568]

Mark, Ryan, I'm going to have to object to the use of penetration as the primary metric by which you evaluated the terminal performance. If you'll indulge the comparison, in nuclear physics (particularly in radiology) the dissipation of energy into the target is the measure by which you evaluate effective radiation dosing (in a positive sense or a negative one). Kyle Hill has an excellent example of this on his KZbin channel in his Half-Life Histories episode on Anatoly Burgorski taking a particle accelerator shot to the face. The key point is that in radiology, the peak of force dissipated into the target material is called the Bragg peak, and takes place right before the high energy particle (in our case, the bullet) comes to a stop and is described mathematically as an inverse relationship to it's velocity squared. The wound cavity is generated by the extreme initial interaction between the bullet's relatively high speed and the nigh relatively stationary state of the target. But, it seems to me that it's the ultimate dissipation of energy into the target that ensures that you're getting the most out of your bullet. I get that there is a desire to ensure that you get into the target with your round, but penetrating through and through on a target really only helps in the sense of there being another hole from which blood can escape the body. But, internal blood loss is, as far as I can tell, as effective as external blood loss. I love the 6.5 CM, but from an external ballistics standpoint with regard to force on target, based on the above, I disagree strongly with your conclusion that the 6.5 CM is the better performer in terminal performance. If there's still enough energy for it to get out the other side, that's energy not dissipated into the target. All that said, I still personally like the 6.5 CM better as a cartridge than the .308. It's easier to shoot, the available ammunition options get your target effectively just as dead, and rifles in stores are practically as available as the .308. Probably even more so - I'll tell you right out that I see far more 6.5 CM rifles in stores than .308s right now. I just can't agree that it's the objectively better of the two, even if I subjectively prefer the 6.5 CM.

[@TheDurivage]

Thank you for this comment. That is one of the most interesting comment I’ve ever read on a social media app. Fascinating!!!

[@Jan-jx6ne]

Poking holes in viral organs is what kills game not "Force on Target" lol.

[@Wheelchair-bear]

Very professional, l think they did a great job. Next time 270 win vs 6.5 PRC ?

[@justice1327]

Great job! What a way to change up your discussions about cartridges. I was surprised at the distance a copper bullet traveled in the ballistics gel.

[@MrJasonricker]

Spectacular production quality, great scripting, it flows nicely. The pacing is perfect and the knowledge content and real world ammo use makes this series a winner. Thanks for your continued commitment to excellence!

[@Ratkill9000]

One thing 6.5 Creedmoor lacks that .308 will always excell at is, barrel life. 2500 rounds for 6.5 Creed and 6,000+ rounds upwards of 8,000 rounds on the .308. If you shoot a lot, that can add up and save you a ton of money in barrels.

[@T-DsGaming]

The average barrel life before losing accuracy on the 308 is 3k rounds.

[@jreed10291974]

@@T-DsGaming I have been threw 2 .308 barrels both still shot 1/2 to 3/4 5 shot groups at 5k rounds both barrels got changed at 8k. Both barrels started at .3 groups.

[@T-DsGaming]

@@jreed10291974 Sure man.

[@MinutemanMedic]

@@jreed10291974eh, I think the creedmoor lasts longer than people give it credit for.

[@matthewlyness8161]

I've shot 5000 rounds through my 6.5 creedmoor and can still hold half inch group

[@ssimossimo576]

I don't consider penetration more important than tissue damage when looking at terminal performance, not at all. Both cartridges have enough penetration to reach vitals and, with most bullets, to reliably provide for an exit in most games from most angles. What is important is the damage the bullet causes to tissues. That's what kills. The 308 has an advantage here at reasonable distances. And putting deer skin and even a rib in front of the gel would be useful. That said, the fact is that 6.5 creedmore has slightly better ballistics but when this advantage starts making a difference, both of these cartridges are too slow (with low energies) for what i feel comfortable to use when big game hunting. 308 is a very good and versatile cartridge inside 500 yards, 6.5 is a little bit less versatile and basically the range for big games is the same. 6.5 PRC makes more sense to me. And 7 PRC, that's a sweet round. But i think most versatile rounds are 308, 7 SAUM (unfortunately almost impossible to find anywhere), 7-08, 30-06. I would pick anyone of these 4 over a 6.5 cm all day of the week.

[@MyAudioPipe]

Yeah and they are not thinking on the Energi that the 308w would Leav. If the 6.5 creed punches strate through the animal and the bullet from the 308w youst drop through that means that the 308w did leav more Energi in the animal 😀

[@redrock425]

I'm not a hunter but it seems clear that at hunting ranges BC is unimportant. Energy and therefore disruption to the vitals is important. Full penetration just means some energy was wasted. .308 seems the best all-rounder to me.

[@shanedevon147]

Content producers always make money off pushing the new thing so they can sell more products. But yes i agree, to your average person .308 is superior. 6.5 only wins out on people who are target shooting long range, or who are comfortable taking big game at a longer range than i find ethical/practical/necessary especially with these calibers. 308 and 30-06 are and likely always will be the only big game hunting cartridges i will ever use, plus ammo is cheaper and a lot easier to find.

[@ssimossimo576]

@@redrock425 small variations in BC are not so important. Big variations in BC are. Using a modern, aerodynamic bullet and using a regular softpoint, both in 308, you will see more difference in ballistic than between a .308 and a flatter and more powerful round, like a 7 mm rem mag, using bullets with similar contruction.

[@ammbam]

A lot of guys aren’t hunters though so they don’t care about anything you had to say. Performance wise at the range why would I bother using a .308 when there are better and more exciting bullets to shoot that out perform a .30 calibers ballistics and shootability?

[@stephencooper5040]

The presentation was a game show type cringe worthy experience. It’s hilarious and I love it. Well done y’all.

[@chuckbrubaker-go9yg]

Love the cartridge talks. My problem with this comparison is you seem to do the same as all comparisons of the Creed, in that for drop and drift you use a heavy for caliber 6.5 and a light to med for caliber bullet in the 308!! So BC will be much higher hence the 6.5 looks a lot better!! Also will have a higher SD for more penetration!! Not apples to apples!! Both good cartridges But!!!

[@overhead18]

I am sitting here as the dude that still hunts with a 30-06, but I am old. I have fired plenty of .308 and 6.5, never noticed much of a difference in perceived recoil. Maybe most importantly for me, I don't recall a situation while I was hunting when I said "boy, I wish I had instead of this I have now". Shots I missed I missed because of a lack of time behind the rifle and/or mistakes I made setting up and taking the shot. I would have no issue hunting with either cartridge, spending a day at the range shooting a bunch is a different story.

[@mikecrafar6276]

Excellent video 👍 The final result probably shows that the 6.5 is more capable than the haters give it credit for!

[@joshuahunt1210]

Penetration doesn't kill animals. The terminal performance bit should have included measurements on the wound cavity.

[@mikemacmahon3691]

I was really looking forward to this one.. Exceeded my expectations!! Stellar presentation, I really enjoy Ryans meticulous breakdown on all cartridge talks. 👍👍👍 Let’s get some more gel and go another round..

[@VortexNation]

Thanks for the watch! Stay tuned for more gel-shooting action! Mark B.

[@bronco686]

Great video. Always enjoy the well balanced content in the videos you guys produce. I liked the fact that you used 100 pound blocks, and used a fresh block for each shot. Using the heavier blocks really helped stabilize them at bullet impact, which reduced interference of the bullet trajectory through the medium, and made it easier to see the projectiles during the slow motion sequences. Using a fresh block for each test was nice from an objective standpoint, as it eliminated the potential for artifactual changes in the medium introduced from prior bullet impacts, and as a viewer I didn’t have to distinguish between other visually distracting bullet paths. The cartridge nerd in me would really like to see a comparison between 280 ai and the 6.5 PRC. Do the reloading manuals really tell the whole story, or will the media performance show a clear separation with respect to performance?

[@BuckFoeJiden]

One last point. More penetration isn't always better. Consider, whenever a bullet exits a target, its taking whatever energy it has left with it on exit. My standard hunting round is a 100 grain soft point in .243 Winchester. Less overall muzzle energy, but dumps a higher percentage of that energy into the target. Id actually take the .308 over 6.5 Creedmoor for overall energy. For what 6.5 CM excels at, I'd much rather run .243 Winchester, and if .264 was necessary, id run 260 Remington. .338 Federal is also a great option. Especially in shorter barrel packages.

[@charlesmorgan1879]

I bought a .308 during the "Great ammo shortage" , i was actually looking hard at .270 but there wasn't any ammo...6.5 Cm rifles but not much ammo to feed it , there was .308 ammo in almost every place i looked in store and on web , happy with it....also bought a Vortex optic for it.

[@notsure7874]

The same could not be said for 5.56. From what I remember (I'm trying to forget), as soon as any hit, it got snapped up. I didn't have a 308 shooter at the time so I wasn't looking, but I'm glad to hear it was available. Now I have an excuse to do a barrel nut setup and get a 308 barrel ;)

[@woodswalker1111]

I have a 308. My son has the 6.5 c. He was talking about getting it. I told him to go for it. I had, at that point, read and watch a lot of positive things and told him about it. He also eead and watched a lot of positive things. He just needed a little push. He picked up a Ruger American that came with a 4 to 12 by 40 Vortex scope and now it's his go to rifle.

[@kevinwatkins1355]

I think the terminal ballistic category is hard to give to the 6.5, I know it penetrates deeper then the .308 but it's not as big of a wound cavity which helps for bleed out if you have a through and through. I love both cartridges but I'm not sure I can agree with that test.

[@brazzy1467]

I will never get rid of my tried and true .308. The 7.62x51/308 has always stopped the threat when I was in Afghanistan and it's helped fill my freezer. My buddies son got a new Begara with a really nice Vortex optic. Long story short he stated that he was ready to against me in a friendly competition we shot steel out to 800 yds and I had first round hits every time and he had 3 misses. I've got 20+ years with the .308 and I don't plan on switching. Great comparison video.

[@francoisbm6785]

It's great that people are willing to take the time and put the effort to show some testing. However, it seems nobody is able to use the same comparable bullets for the testing; 6.5 140gr vs 308 180gr lead / 6.5 143 eldx vs 308 178 eldx and/or 6.5 120gr ttsx vs 308 150 gr ttsx barnes copper. Pretty much everybody has access to ballistic tables and figure out the numbers doing a desktop exercise. What is more challenging, requires more ressources and time is the terminal ballistic part and this is what everybody is really interested in. Penetration is great to see and easy to measure, but if it was possible to provide an electronic measurement of the wound cavity in inch3 that would be even better. And then you do it again with a 3/4 plywood in front of the gel or something like that. And do it again with reduced loads to mimic a 400 yards shot.

[@ssimossimo576]

Listen to this guy

[@TacticalConsiderations]

I love these videos. As someone who grew up on 308 and 243 for hunting. I love seeing these side by sides that show evidence based testing to help us all choose between tried and true and more modern cartridges.

[@pietermalan5450]

Great work, guys!! One thing I would change is the selected bullet weights for the 308 in the factory ammo used..... on the 6.5 side, you used a fairly heavy for caliber option at 140 grains , whereas on the 308, you opted for a very light for caliber option at 150 grains 🤷‍♂️ I would've, at the very least, loaded a 165 lead core bullet, but if you're going heavy for caliber with a decent sectional density, why not run a 180 grain power shok ?

[@JohnHughes-du8zj]

I noticed that too. Also went up in weight and ran a 165 copper on the 308, but went down in weight to 130 for the copper on the creedmoor. I thought is was common knowledge to go lighter on copper for more velocity and greater expansion.

[@LeeRobinson_TTU]

Solid video gentlemen. I would love to see more videos on terminal effects of bullets: minimum velocity required for expansion of a variety of bullets, especially copper, as well as, how bullets react through various mediums by adding bone and hide at the front of the gel block. Keep up the great work.

[@brendanstrenke2951]

Would be cool to see the difference between 30-06 and 308.

[@ratherbefishing4225]

If anything I think it would be even closer, especially if they only use factory ammo like they did here. Shootability- .308 Versatility- .308 Accessibility- Tie Drop & Drift- .30-06 Terminal Performance- .30-06

[@GeezerWheels]

I own neither round and don't have a dog in this fight. But I do wonder how the results might differ if a 165 grain or 180 grain bullet had been used in the .308. Obviously more drop in the .308 with a 165, but penetration would certainly be better, but recoil would obviously be worse. Sectional density being more similar would be more head to head. Great video, guys - thanks! (BTW most of my big game hunting has been done with a .257 Weatherby Mag and .300 Win Mag. Colorado hunting usually demands longer ranges.)

[@herbievanbeveren1314]

FYI: Barrel life: The .308 wins by a nose, although it’s close enough that you can consider it a tie for all practical purposes, but 7.62 NATO is globally everywhere.

[@marzcapone9939]

It's a different animal, but a AR10 with a chrome barrel could see 10,000 round barrel life.

[@Starcraft98marine]

I’ve heard double. Granted, when you’re shooting that much, cost of barrel shouldn’t be a consideration

[@harolddalesr8365]

Up to 8000 rounds barrel life of a .308

[@aping01]

I really enjoyed this video. I’m looking at getting my first bolt gun and have went back and forth between these two cartridges. I’m still leaning toward the 308 just because of the ammo availability and the cost per round. I think I’ll be able to shoot the 308 more for the same amount of money. The more I can shoot the better I will be with the rifle.

[@raywells2858]

Thats one of the reasons I am so heavily invested in the .308. The differences in the two when it comes to hunting aint that much different. Been shooting for about 46 years...started with a 7mm RM, went to a 300 WM, then went to the .308 Win. The older I get the more I appreciate efficiency in performance and economy. Im a reloader and can get my brass considerably cheaper than the 6.5 CM, the difference in powder consumption is minimal and I have a huge bullet selection and load data to choose from. Hence why I havent jumped on the 6.5 CM wagon. Its a great cartridge though too!

[@joshuahunt1210]

The 308 will serve you well. Versitile, easy to shoot, easy to reload for, well established dope tables, better terminal ballistics, obscenely long barrel life, etc. My 10 year old was shooting my 6.5lb 308 in the prone position and didn't even notice the recoil. Enjoy your rifle.

[@gsitzkowitz]

I’d like to point out one caveat in your comparison. When comparing the two the the 6.5s 147 grain bullets is optimal for the caliber. To find an equally optimal bullet for the 308 you need to be talking 165. At least on paper I found that a 165 eclipses the 147 virtually across the board. If you include handloading then 308 really outshines the 6.5. That said at longer ranges the difference is really only on paper as game will never know the difference.

[@Rockhurst22]

This is exactly the quality of review I want to see. Excellent video.

[@jmythngdmb]

I’m very pumped for this, this is one of my favorite podcasts, love the video option.

[@VortexNation]

Thanks for watching! We’re just gettin’ started 😉

[@nevadacoyote]

Well done gentleman. I really enjoy your cartridge talks. But this takes it to the next level. Keep up the great work. Id really like to see more of these test comparisons

[@andrewcappiello5585]

I've seen several print articles, videos ect suggesting that 6.5, and 6.8 cause accelerated throat erosion cutting barrel life to about 2k rounds. As hard as I've looked, I've never found anything to refute that. By comparison the barrel of my factory M-24 (according to Remington) can be expected to last about 10k rounds. I've also seen nothing refuting that. If that's true I'd be nearly halfway to a new barrel on the 6.5. I'll stick with the. 308.

[@ronlowney4700]

Good point! 👍

[@jdogi1]

Gel tests are tricky. Really difficult to say much about the cartridge, in general, from this limited testing.

[@chadblodgett8634]

Great presentation, as mentioned can't really go wrong with either one for most cases. That being said I would rank it subjectively even though. I would choose permanent wound cavity over penetration as long as the penetration is suitable enough to pass through vitals. Which both proved shouldn't be a problem with decent shot placement . I also live in an area where it is likely the longest shot one would be taking is under 300 yards, with the vast majority of harvests being less than half that. I'm sure if I lived in an area where long shots on big bodied animals were common I would prioritize performance at range.

[@RemedyTalon]

Great production! People saying "the wound channel is bigger on the 308" are not taking into account this test was performed at 100 yards and results will swing more in favor of the 6.5cm as the range is increased.

[@Starcraft98marine]

I guess they were trying to do an apples to apples comparison in regards to weight. But the sectional densities of this test were skewed in favor of 6.5 Heavier bullet choice in 6.5 and light 150 grain caliber for .308 A more accurate representation would have been, 175 grain .308 Followed by the 140 grain 6.5

[@ssimossimo576]

People saying "the wound channel is bigger in the 308" mean that the wound channel is bigger in the 308 in the test, so at 100 yards. If you go past 4 or 5 hundred yards things could change but at that point energies are pretty low for hunting big games for both. Also when lower wind drift and drop comes in to play to favour rhe 6.5, velocities are already too low to deliver enough energy for big game hunting. The 6.5 creedmore was born as a target round and you can see it. In real word applications could have some advantages over the 308 from 400 to 500 yards.

[@bradh8391]

Production on this is amazing, great job to everyone working on it

[@charleshuyck6641]

Another site tested these two with 178 grain eldx in 308 and 143 in 6.5 308 had a 2 inch wider wound channel and penetrated 27 inches vs the 6.5 21.5 inches.

[@charlie10tango39]

I have to say, I've never shot a 29"-36" wide deer. Wound channel diameter and energy upon impact, I think, are more important than gel penetration length. The 308 is the "old grizzly man that drinks whiskey" while the 6.5 is the "well groomed beard and flannel wearing millenia that drinks craft beer".

[@rcs2749]

I thought the old grizzly man used a 30-06 :-)

[@dsmith4901]

You have also never shot a deer made of ballistic gel. Bone will deflect, deform and slow down those bullets upon entry where that extra penetration will be beneficial.

[@charlie10tango39]

@dsmith4901 you have a 6.5, don't you??? smh...

[@Swollenfishy]

DAMN BOYS really kicking things up a notch! I’m all for it this is awesome

[@Wheelchair-bear]

Very professiona,l they did a great job. Next time 270 win vs 6.5 PRC ?

[@jefferymoton2873]

I own both the .308 Win and the 6.5 Creedmoor. The 6.5 tends to be more accurate for me. The .308 Win was purchased due to the availability of ammunition and the history of the caliber.

[@clapton924]

Love the new series. My only suggestion is to compare bullets with similar sectional density; otherwise the gel and drop/drift data is somewhat meaningless. A 140gr 6.5 bullet has a SD in the .260's while a 150gr .308 has a SD in the .230's. Apples and oranges.

[@joecimarello6342]

If your going to run 6.5creed with a 140gr bullet which would be on the heavy side shouldn't you be doing the same for the 308win ? this little comparison is good but not quite right because of bullet weights to be truly fair I'd love them compared with bullets across their spectrums light and heavy 143gr vs 180gr the heaviest factory loadings

[@aulusflavius9635]

This was a fun little look at the two cartridges. As a fan of the 6.5 Swede, .260 Rem and .308 Win, I can safely say it kills deer dead. Since deer and only be dead and not more deader, it is impossible to say which is really better. Or gooder. Or something. lol Nice vid guys.

[@RT-gv6us]

Very well done. While the 6.5 CM comes out the overall winner, when I am hunting elk or black bear I will still lean toward the 308.

[@Evanbmt]

Always enjoy watching your and listening to your videos guys! This one was fun to watch! Let’s see more of this. 308 and 30-06?

[@johncoleman2495]

It's never hard to make the parameters of the test support the conclusion you choose

[@MrBUBBAKY]

My Daughter uses the Remington 130g 6.5 Creedmoor and dropped an 8pt Buck stone dead at 130 Yds , with purposeful neck shot. My son dropped a 10pt Buck , stone dead, with a .308 at 100 yds with Heart/Lung shot. Both are deadly with an accurate shot, by good marksman. 6.5 Creedmoor has less recoil, and smaller wound channel over 300 yds.

[@macmcglosson2739]

Both calibers are excellent choices and i am sure whichever you choose you should be more than satisfied.The .308 has more juice up close and the 6.5 has more past 500yds. Most hunting situations are much less than 500yds but in any case shot placement is paramount. I have taken many whitetail deer with a .223 Tompson Contender pistol and shot placement was critical, never lost one deer with this caliber.

[@macmcglosson2739]

@trevormullennix1281 The 6.5 Creedmoor bullet weight stops at 147grs, the premier bullet weight for the .308 is 168gr. Granted running a Creedmoor 147gr against a .308 in 150gr would be a closer comparison, that being said I still stand by my statement the .308 has more juice at closer distances and after 500yds its all Creedmoor in any barrel configuration. Again, most people don't attempt shots on game at that distance and either caliber should be more than enough for whitetail at typical hunting distances...not knocking the .308 or the 6.5 Creedmoor or a dozen other calibers, if it works for you it works, period!😁😎 ..

[@luloadventure]

I am Fan of these Cartridge Talks. Waiting for the next chapter. Thank you.

[@hansstronkhorst1769]

Love the video en graphics, great to actually see the results. However, if you want to test penetration between different cartridges, you need to use bullets with the same SD. 150gr 308 will always lose to 140gr 6.5, given the same bullet. Secondly, bullet type should actually be taken into consideration when looking at the results. Powershok bullet are traditional cup and core bullets and will expand rapidly, permanent wound channel is they key here. With copper bullets though, penetration is the key consideration, it was made for it.

[@libra7624]

well done vortex staff, hope to see more in the future, it all comes down to what out of many variables that are our favorite in cartridge selection is according to purpose and needs

[@mtnkrew]

Awesome content, id love to see the ballistic gel at 400-500 yards

[@Healthliving1967]

A box of.308 rounds 150 grain is approximately $38.00 for 20. A box of 6.5 creedmore 140 grain is approximately $65.00 for 20 here in Australia-nearly double the price! If I was buying factory ammo I know which one I’d rather.

[@corycook7879]

Awesome job guys. Please keep these coming.

[@SeanSmith-ui8tw]

The cartridges should also be compared high grain vs high grain and low grain vs low grain. Like compare a 178-180 grain .308 vs the 140 grain 6.5 and 110g varmint .308 vs an 80g varmint try and match sectional densities and ballistic coefficients. You may have close to the same grain weight but you are neutering the .308 because a 140g 6.5 is going to have a much higher SD and BC compared to a 150g .308

[@CameronAlbrecht-g4w]

I would have liked to see 1 more category; affordability!

[@randallflores-qr8cs]

LOL.........that's what I was thinking. I can still find fairly affordable (by today's standards) ammo for my .308. The main reason I haven't picked up a 6.5 is ammo cost.

[@J_D_Rambro]

I hunt with both these as I have them in sig crosses. With a few exceptions I will use the 6.5creed as my main using Norma Oryx 158gr bullets, or Hornady Superformance in either caliber.

[@elendal]

Gel penetration at 400 yards would be interesting to see.

[@benjaminhuberty5888]

You can accomplish this by lowering powder.... Aka making bulet come out at speed it would at 400 yards. This has been accomplished by ultimate reloader. They did this for a 1000 yard estimate I believe.

[@bobbauldock3846]

I am a 308 nut, USMC thru 69 thru 92, as a 308 shooter, I was surprised to see how good the 30-06 fired repeatedly ,If it comes down to life and death 308 or 06 is my bet, let,s wait another 60 yrs, then compare the new kid in town the 6.5 CDR

[@JAC8504]

Yikes. Do we care about what cartridge has more penetration for hunting? The displacement from the 308 is much more impressive than the 6.5. I haven’t seen any deer that you need that much penetration. Unless we are talking about a moose. I’m comfortable saying not everyday does the avg Joe get a shot at a moose though. At that point a 6.5 or 308 need to be the primary cartridge for moose hunting either.

[@niplo2]

I have to agree with you. Overpenetration is bad since you're not putting the energy into the target after it comes out the other end. I'd say 308 won the terminal ballistics test easily with more energy in the projectile AND transferring it into the target more effectively.

[@johnsanders7337]

Is this Ryan's famous kimber 308??? This channel and Ryan(being equally as nersy as myself)have made the kiber short action my new dream rifle

[@jeremiahcoles2378]

It would be cool to see how different their impacts look out at 300-400yrd hardly see anyone doing that.

[@ronlowney4700]

Frontline Rejects Does on His Videos! 👌

[@chrisfouts1720]

I think a more fair comparison would have been to match sectional densities and ballistic coefficients. Perhaps their approach was to be more in line with that the average hunter will purchase from a box store to hunt game with? And, if I may, for the last metric of terminal performance, I think you should measure the length and diameter of the permanent wound cavity which would give us an idea of the tissue damage done, resulting in game expiring more quickly. Penetration is good, but tissue damage cannot be neglected!

[@Mr.Run-n-Gun]

Let's see the 7 prc vs 7 rem mag, or 6.5 creede vs 6.5 prc👍🏼. Nice work with the data and ballistics show. Perhaps adding in firearms platform availability... Can't shoot a round without a gun (safely).😅

[@briansousa6341]

The 6.5 can’t hold a flame to the 308 as far as hunting goes. Everyone already knows that. It’s ok, you can say it, they know. 6.5 will kill for sure, but it’s more of a paper round. The 308 is a world renowned killer. 7 mag, 30’06, 300, 270, those are killers. I’ve been hunting for the past 4 years with a 6.5 PRC, it knocks their lights out for sure, but it’s a PRC.

[@DialedinHunter]

Guys, this was AWESOME! Packed with practical information. Love this!

[@mine8009]

Fantastic video gents. One critique that Ryan mentioned in the gel analysis: control for sectional density. If you run cartridges of comparable sectional densities (I.e. +/- 0.02 ish) you should get more of an apples to apples comparison in terms of relative velocity and penetration.

[@ld8095]

Yes. I understand that they went for commonly used bullet weights, but sectional density should be accounted for in direct comparisons.

[@erica12373365]

You guys do a great job of this, however this time I disagree on one point. "Terminal ballistics".6.5 Creedmoor may make a deeper hole however that's only 1/3 of what's going on in that block. The 308 out to 500 yd is definitely hitting harder than the 6.5 Creedmoor. Also the 308 is leaving a considerably larger hole than the 6.5 Creedmoor is. The 308 is a better killer overall and the 6.5 Creedmoor is a better shooter for distance. In my humble opinion. You should consider dividing up what is actually happening in the block a little more. As always you guys did a very good job, keep up the good work. PS 6.5 arasaka compared to 6.5 Creedmoor....... Yes I said it, especially if you're a hand loader. It would make a great conversation I think

[@Melissa.712]

We NEED!!! more videos like this.

[@finalaccuracy7695]

Great video. I'm glad to see you do the testing. On a side note, you guys have amazing customer service. I am technologically challenged, and you guys helped me get my 4000GB up and running. Can't say thank you enough.

[@Weatherby406]

I wanna see 6.5CM, 6.5prc, 6.5-300 Weatherby put head to head.

[@deadtimber]

Nice primer for people who are new to these subjects; mono bullets vs lead core, and the 2 cartridges in general. There are innumerable videos and forum discussions out there on these vey subjects and this one is a bit late to the hunt, but a good summary nonetheless. The high BC bullets in 6.5 and their lighter weight producing less recoil make it a joy to shoot to buck the effects of wind. We’re already pretty good at dialing in for drop. Mono bullets like Barnes and Hammers guarantee penetration and work very well on game but lack the high BC of some lead cores.

[@bradbo3]

Im sticking with my 308. Unless you guys have a giveaway for a 6.5……and I win. Taken many deer with my 308…so have my sons. Plus during ammogeddon….you couldnt find 6.5…..but 308 was still everywhere.

[@Bu11sEye5]

An incredibly helpful and well done video 👍🏻Thank you! I run a Tikka in 6.5 Creedmoor. Superbly done fellas!

[@barthutchison4207]

I know you guys are busy doing your normal jobs at Vortex, but I feel like if you went full in to the podcasts and videos, you could grow these channels into something very profitable.

[@vincentwood7036]

You can't compare a round that is light for one caliber to one that is heavy for the other; this will obviously skew the result. 140gr is fairly heavy for 6.5 and 150gr is fairly light for .308. It would make more sense to compare something like 140gr 6.5 to ~170gr .308

[@T-DsGaming]

The 6.5Cm will still outdo it in SD and BC.

[@vincentwood7036]

@@T-DsGaming Backfire did a more realistic test: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jGaXoayga7mqeM0

[@madmod]

I love this. More gel tests!!

[@PTWNSLGR]

Great series, can’t wait for more. As far as 308 vs 6.5. I’m still a 308 guy BUT, I agree with what was said, either or, depending on the application one can do better than the other , and vice versa. Great job of at least opening my mind to the 6.5, now we need 708 vs either, 45/70 vs 450 bushmaster, 7mag,7 prc, 300 win mag, 300 wsm, 300 prc….and 12 ga vs 20 ga sabot for those of us who hunt public land where it is shotgun only. Using REM accutip, Hornady SST, and the Federal/Barnes/Winchester all copper with sabot. Lol I’m not asking for much lol again great job guys. And then muzzle loaders……😂

[@jjrobiso]

Im surprised with the 6.5 performance over the 308. Makes me want a 6.5 even more now.

[@tonyfrance4100]

Do it, you wont regret it. My AR-10 is a 6.5 rifle and I'm in love with it. I've also got a .308 bolt gun but the 6.5 is just a lot better to shoot.

[@TheChiconspiracy]

Penetration isn't the only factor though, and in terms of tissue damage (and ability to punch through bone) a comparably built .308 will be superior at reasonable hunting ranges.

[@SelfRescueSurvival]

I use 308 federal 180gr powershoks for hunting wild cattle where I live, Ive taken down 2,000lbs bulls ,one shot in the lower shoulder area and they drop where they stand every time, never have an exit hole with is nice because all energy is dumped into the animal , haveing an exit wound just means you lost a lot of energy out that hole and will probably have an animal that runs and you will be following a blood trail for awhile, I dont like exit wounds. The federal powershoks are speer hot core bullets which is an old school way of bonding the jacket to core, it works great, you get some seperation and good expansion but rarely an exit hole which is awesome, I also get 3/4" groups at 100yrds out of my cheapo ruger american 18in barrel, I am surprised at this setups performance, good luck out there guys, Send It!

[@frankgrillo8094]

Just rename the 308 - the 7,.62 Creedmoor & all the " youngsters" will be on board.

[@jasonscott5043]

Well, I know of several South Texas ranches that discourage the use of 6.5 but have no problem with 308 in the impenetrable brush where following a blood trail requires using a 10’ 2”x4” board. What they do is stand the board up and let it fall on the brush and then start walking up it to push the thorny brush down just to get somewhere. When you ask the people doing this for a living looking for a $15,000 deer they’ll tell you that the 308 is superior. Same thing happened to the 243. It’s on their web sights if you want to look around. Look under the things to know before you pack your bags sections. They have minimum calibers and the 6.5 is on the do not bring lists. 308 isn’t.

[@CDinNC]

Prefer 308 for it’s larger wound diameter. 30 caliber for hunting. 6.5 for targets.

[@titomish5914]

That’s your opinion and this video shows the abilities of 6.5 over the 308

[@Starcraft98marine]

@@titomish5914 In penetration. Wound channel they already stated the .308 making a bigger hole. Also, the sectional densities of the rounds didn’t take into account light for caliber and heavy choices. Example, they took a light for caliber .308 150 grain and pitted it against a heAvy for caliber 6.5

[@bryantitus6634]

​@@titomish5914 the facts are that at the range tested, the 308 carries more energy at impact. Even if penetration was equal, the 308 would be providing more energy transfer. Given that these two specific projectiles tested in each caliber provided more penetration with the 6.5 creed, the 308 clearly provided a wider, albeit shallower wound. All 4 projectiles provide passthrough penetration on broadside medium game, especially without large bone impacts. And given wider wounding with the .308, the blood trails theoretically would be better. That said, even within the same bullet line with similar construction, variations in actual terminal performance varies greatly even in highly controlled mediums such as ballistics gel. So long as you match the bullet to the types of shots anticipated on your anticipated target species, the difference between these two calibers on real world wounding is negligible at best. The 308 probably wounds wider and kills better to a degree. With more stout constructed projectiles, the 6.5 might penetrate slightly deeper but with narrower wound channels. The 6.5 is softer recoiling and bucks the wind better on the average. That said the vast majority of medium and large game is killed well within 200 yards in North America. Both of these calibers are realistically more capable than necessary for most applications. Personal preference is to shoot the bullet that transfers the most energy possible while still providing two holes. Most deer hunters don't need to shoot copper bullets. Bonded bullets tend to limit energy transfer and are designed for larger game where they get to transfer more energy over the deeper, heavier animals. I'm not saying modern bullets are useless or excessive, but cup and core bullets do a mighty fine job killing deer in deer hunting calibers. And have for well over a century at this point.

[@HDBujutsu1775]

😂😂😂😂🤦🏻🤡