62kWh isolation problem [part 1]

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Dala's EV Repair

Dala's EV Repair

Күн бұрын

"P0AA6 EV/HEV Hybrid Batt Volt Sys Isolation" the line no LEAF owner wants to read. Enjoy the progress of me figuring out if this is salvageable or not!
Massive thanks to all my Patreon supporters. Like the content? Consider becoming a supporter: www.patreon.com/dala

Пікірлер: 242
@cloutiernicholas
@cloutiernicholas Жыл бұрын
Hi Dala. Just a thought. I used to work at a Nissan Dealership and we had isolation problems on 62kwh packs more than once. I was always that exact same module you are working on. Never a physical dent or damage but rather internal chemical defect that caused the leak. Under warranty we would always end up replacing the module altogether and we never had any comebacks.
@andreybalanchuk8387
@andreybalanchuk8387 Жыл бұрын
Is there a way to get new cell from Nissan?
@cloutiernicholas
@cloutiernicholas Жыл бұрын
@@andreybalanchuk8387 when I was working there unfortunately no. You can't just go to the parts counter and buy a cell/module even if you have the part number and money. Battery components are only sent to dealerships when there's an actual diagnostic case going on and they have a tech line case number. But this information applies to Canada and was valid in 2022. Don't know if it still holds.
@andreybalanchuk8387
@andreybalanchuk8387 Жыл бұрын
@@cloutiernicholas don't think it's any different here in US. So only way for such repair is looking is someone sells individual cells from 62 battery which I didn't see yet, they are relatively new and reused as is.
@xdellavedova
@xdellavedova Жыл бұрын
So Bad battery Not to buy used 62kWh
@rdflo6739
@rdflo6739 Жыл бұрын
Seeing as you were measuring a voltage to ground from the - and the + terminal, would it be possible to work out which cell in the pack was causing the leak and taking it out to have a closer look?
@JeremySpidle
@JeremySpidle Жыл бұрын
Hi! Electrician here : Your high voltage gloves MUST BE WORN WITH LEATHER PROTECTORS over the insulating layer. They are NOT designed to be used without leathers!
@captlarry-3525
@captlarry-3525 Жыл бұрын
I would loosen and retighten every pack, re-position all the straps , re-tighten those, inspect and reconnect all the bus bars, then test it again. I would make a cable to connect the battery to the car without installing it in the body, and test operation with the car up on blocks, use leafy spy, and test all systems...see what you have.
@DalasEVRepair
@DalasEVRepair Жыл бұрын
Been running great for many months now 🤩
@peteroffpist1621
@peteroffpist1621 Жыл бұрын
So impressive to see people that understand electronics.
@EVguru
@EVguru Жыл бұрын
A further thought. The pouch cells within a module might have shifted and one or more of the cell tabs come into contact with the cell case. Removing the restraint bars may then have alowed the bent cell tabs to push the pouch back into place.
@kevinmills5293
@kevinmills5293 Жыл бұрын
A very plausible possibility.
@aminorjourney
@aminorjourney Жыл бұрын
Good idea Paul - I think you might be right!
@DaleKlein
@DaleKlein Жыл бұрын
Ooooh, yeah, I could buy that. The tabs on the pouches are all forward. How about turn the module with tabs upward, without the compression bolts in it, and tap it on the ground, maybe on a thick rubber sheet. Try to make the cells sit back down toward the bottom. Like straightening a pile of homework papers that has just been collected. And since all the modules have been subjected to the crash deceleration, do the same to any other modules which have their tabs facing forward. Is there part of the metal case on that side of the module? I don't see anything but plastic on that front side.
@Sunsetseven
@Sunsetseven Жыл бұрын
that's exactly wot i was gonna say, so "wot E said" is my comment ;-)
@beforebefore
@beforebefore Жыл бұрын
Good point! There may be some insufficient clearances inside the pack. Seems unlikely since it's a high voltage battery... but it was designed by humans, and we all fail. If it ends up being this, it seems like a wise idea to spend/invest a few extra hours doing the same thing to every module.... since the entire pack suffered some kind of indirect impact force.
@__oK__
@__oK__ Жыл бұрын
Well, first you need Megger (Fluke 1507 for example) and use it at 500V area. Then inspect that is there connection to battery chassis/frame. Because there has been collision, there can be bend module frames or battery pouch leaking electrolyte. Also find out those bad cells and replace them after knowing reason for isolation problem. Do not make same mistakes what I have done with my Focus Electric. 😁 - Measure first with Megger, normal multimeter is quite useless with inside battery repairs. - Take videos to yourself to remember measured values and you see your working methods, are they have been right in the past (like if you do wrong diagnose, you can double check). And be happy that you do not have coolant cooled battery as I have, also you have more space and warm place to work, I did not. This is quite simple diagnostics after all. When you start figure out Megger and circuits in battery, you will find problem quite quick. Next time is so much faster and comfortable to do when you have some routine. Lycka till, lykkyä tykö! 🙃
@velanapontinha
@velanapontinha Жыл бұрын
I was late for work because of this video. Totally worth it.
@jensdenk9235
@jensdenk9235 Жыл бұрын
Hi Dala, we are doing repacks with modules from China and one of the modules was placed on an uncleaned surface. It has a small dent of 2x3mm and is less than 1mm deep. This module is shorting to ground due to the one cell being damaged. The modules are made up of prismatic cells stacked upright and bound together. Technically speaking, when the cells are manufactured, the insulator that is rolled up with the active material should overlap a little, so that when the flattened roll is squeezed into the box, the active material should be nowhere near the metal can housing. Clearly these tolerances are way lower than we would have though, or we were just very unlucky. In your case the dent that was made in the base of the pack, clearly pushed fairly hard through the steel 'frame' of the module and made a dent internally. You would have to bolt it back onto the bump to replicate the fault again. My advice would be to replace that module/cell if at all possible. The chances that this cell will fail prematurely are very high, as dendrites would have a much shorter path. The soup packet cells seems are more forgiving, so if you wanted to take a chance, it should be ok to remove the dent and refit the pack. Thanks for putting your stuff out for others to learn from. Great channel!❤ Regards Jens
@jnat7806
@jnat7806 Жыл бұрын
Modules from China??? My 2011 leaf only gets 25 miles per charge and is supper clean and has no other problems. Love the car but is becoming useless
@kevinroberts781
@kevinroberts781 Жыл бұрын
Energy density is the name of the game
@EuphoricHacker
@EuphoricHacker Жыл бұрын
Where are those modules available to purchase?
@jensdenk9235
@jensdenk9235 Жыл бұрын
@@EuphoricHacker Shenzen Starmax
@EuphoricHacker
@EuphoricHacker Жыл бұрын
Is your project to strip down prismatic cells to replace the original pouch in Nissan's cells? Or is Shenzen Starmax doing cells that matches Nissan? If you are stripping down, which prismatic cell model are you using?
@pt6423
@pt6423 Жыл бұрын
The dent does not look high enough to touch the battery. Loosening the connection terminals may have changed the contact resistance. Try loosening the plate bolts, take a volt meter measurement then re-tighten. Try this method with a meter continuously taking readings. Maybe just a bad contact.
@captlarry-3525
@captlarry-3525 Жыл бұрын
that does account for leakage path
@daliusrudokas
@daliusrudokas Жыл бұрын
Hi, Dala ! Given the Voltages in the video (-22,43V and 12,58V), it is easy to say, that the problem comes form some of 3rd cell row in the pac (form top, or from the bottom - I don't exactly know, should check that on the module itself, having in mind that pac comes with 9s2p). Lucky for know that it is probably only one cell to ground for now. If there would be a second one too espiacialy in some longer away pac there would be high currents floating between with fire in the battery. The idea that battery was in car crash and because of that some screws moved is not necessarily the truth. Cells in those pacs are very well known for being often expanding with aging and especialy QC to full in hot environment. If that is the case, if all cells are expanding the pressure could even move or even bend the screws. But of course - that is the sign of seriously used battery. Would be easier to check live with a naked eye if that could be the cause because it is hard to say from the video
@MrNhenwood
@MrNhenwood Жыл бұрын
When you have torqued the cell, you did not have the angle iron bar as part of the configuration. I noted there was one when the cell was in the pack. Maybe this difference in load in the pack is enough to not induce the fault. Try re-torquing with all the hardware as it would have been in the battery pack, and see how that goes. I'd not be trusting the pack as it is tho.
@EVguru
@EVguru Жыл бұрын
At what point did you disconnect the BMS harness from that module? Was it just before removing the compression bolts? It's possible the isolation problem has to do with the BMS or BMS wiring.
@zaprodk
@zaprodk Жыл бұрын
If you look closely, the three balance harness plugs were unplugged from the BMS when he proved the isolation fault just before removing the module.
@DaleKlein
@DaleKlein Жыл бұрын
And it could be the balance / bms wiring within the module shorted to the module case.
@douglasmorris8364
@douglasmorris8364 Жыл бұрын
I'm never going to take my battery out however this is enormously interesting Dal. Thank you for sharing.
@V10PDTDI
@V10PDTDI Жыл бұрын
what I like in your video is that you are very safe when working on the high voltage system you have proper PPE and isolated tools etc to work on this I see a lot of videos on U tube and they don't take it seriously and hope that you find the problem and you fix your car cheap.
@cods41
@cods41 Жыл бұрын
Seems like pretty good news. I'd be pushing hard on the bottom of that module where the dent was to see if I can get the earth fault to come back. If you can't, then put it all back together (checking for the fault along the way) and hope you have a reliable battery pack. I'm also a little concerned about what caused the other cells to discharge like that. I'd consider pulling them out and inspecting them closely.
@DaleKlein
@DaleKlein Жыл бұрын
Maybe that module is suspect in the same way. Whatever you find in the one rear module (shifted cells, pinched balance leads?), look for same in the out of balance module.
@Nemo_Avtodom
@Nemo_Avtodom 9 ай бұрын
@DalasEVRepair I have this problem on my Nissan Note e-power HE12. I am very sad that the megohmmeter and other measuring devices cannot detect this problem... leaks and startup prohibition - while the problem is “floating”, you can drive 300 km, or 50 km... and then get an error...
@wilmarochoa8042
@wilmarochoa8042 Жыл бұрын
Hi Dala, I would add to dissasembly all other stacks to correct bendings from the crash. Also, after complete the pack reassembly, performing the insulation test with Megger in the extreme temperatures you could have in the future. Best regards
@mikeselectricstuff
@mikeselectricstuff Жыл бұрын
The fact you were seeing 12/24v suggests that there is a short or leak one-third of the way through the series stack. It would probably be useful to measure the resistance of the short by seeing how the leakage voltage changes if you load the meter - that should show if it's a dead short or resistive - e.g. moisture etc. I suppose x-raying the pack might show up internal damage, but probably needs a powerful industrial x-ray to penetrate the steel sufficiently.
@RonnyJakobsson
@RonnyJakobsson Жыл бұрын
Greetings from Sweden. Since i am just in my first month of owning a 2019 40kW Leaf @ just 38000km. I am watching your videos to have the knowledge when there will be a problem. I thank you for your great work. I am looking forward to the upgraded charging projekt.
@ThanosSustainable
@ThanosSustainable Жыл бұрын
Extracted module is in 9s configuration. Looks like one of the series cells is leaking to its outer casing. Compressing doesn’t work, probably because it was touching the battery case when it was inside. I guess you’ll have to carefully examine the module for visible damage, and also take some voltage measurements around. Problematic cell should be #3 from the top or bottom.
@NB-ld1qt
@NB-ld1qt Жыл бұрын
Great video and thanks for sharing. Can"t add much more than what has been suggested below. You do need to find the reason for the lower voltage cells though. Check connections that may have been loosened in the accident. Good luck !
@ratiof2827
@ratiof2827 Жыл бұрын
Thanks to let us look inside!
@addyionut
@addyionut Жыл бұрын
Good video and information! I'm waiting for a final conclusion. My 40 kwh battery haves the same error, since June 2022. I still drive the car, a 2019 Leaf, erasing the error each time I start it. I made 8000 km since broken down. The condition of the battery has not worsened during all this time, but the SOH has decreased a little, with 2%, which is quite normal, in 9 months. The strange thing is, it's a single station in my whole town, that let me charge it to 100% with no error, other ones stop charging at 30-35% SOC, when the error comes on the dashboard. Under 30% SOC, there's no error on dashboard, never. It works completely normal, heather and AC as well.
@HerbDavidson-zq8hz
@HerbDavidson-zq8hz Жыл бұрын
Since the same area seems to have a problem in other cars I would swap the cell pack to the right or left if possible and hope I get lucky for a while. Great work! it's likely too late but I thought I'd add my 2 cents.
@AmaranthineTech
@AmaranthineTech 11 ай бұрын
I might be 10 months late now, so I hope your memory is excellent as always. Not related to the reason you took your pack apart, but I've been trying to figure out how the 62 kWh packs keep warm without a physical battery warmer for years now. When you took apart the pack, did you see anything inside that would facilitate a "software" warming mode? The hypothesis for years has been the shunts, but don't know if they can produce enough waste heat for the whole battery?
@DalasEVRepair
@DalasEVRepair 11 ай бұрын
The battery has no heaters. Simply using the pack heats it up!
@AmaranthineTech
@AmaranthineTech 11 ай бұрын
@@DalasEVRepair Would that be the same as turning it on with climate control, lights, radio, all switched off? Just having the main contactors engaged and DC-DC system running is enough internal battery heat?
@paillart527
@paillart527 Жыл бұрын
Nothing better to say than Nicolas Cloutier. Anyway, disassemble the pack and check each cell. As said Nico, internal leak seems the more possible reason or maybe a cell damaged. The leak shoud be reproductible. Can't say better because not in front of the pack. Congratulation, you are back on track to solve this problem.
@MiniLuv-1984
@MiniLuv-1984 Жыл бұрын
Since you are getting negative leakage voltages then that implies a positive from a cell somewhere in the middle of that pack is not right. Can you pull the pouch cells out one at a time and inspect the ones around the middle?
@johnantliff
@johnantliff Жыл бұрын
To my mind that dent was superficial/cosmetic and very unlikely to be connected with your stack short. Much more likely is the possibility of an internal short to the case which has disappeared when the stack was allowed to expand free of bolt pressure. You need to look at the internals of this stack for the possibility of a short around the centre part of the cell stack. Very informative and educational videos - I commend you for them.
@siku5it
@siku5it Жыл бұрын
Is there a torque level that you have to reach when re-compressing the module? - What I am thinking is that you might not have compressed back the module at the same torque level as it was while inside the battery. - So maybe if you compress to the adequate level, you'll see the problem coming back. - If you do that test, then you can have bit less of a chance to get the problem re-occurring when you put it back all together. - You are one courageous man!
@nowanda2nd
@nowanda2nd Жыл бұрын
The voltages you measured between ground and battery terminals before you removed the faulty module were 12.x and 24.x. This suggests the short happens on cell number 3. I suspect that cell is somehow shorted to the one of the compression bolts.
@DalasEVRepair
@DalasEVRepair Жыл бұрын
I would 100% agree with you!
@kustomzone
@kustomzone Жыл бұрын
Flattening the dent from below might be the solution to removing any additional compression that caused the ground. Or lay a thin sheet of insulation between the case and the bottom of the stack, and re-assemble to test. Possibly a thin sheet on top if it's closer to lid, but when re-gluing it you could also put a thin shim along that side of the lid before bolting it down to gain a few millimeters of clearance if needed.
@SashaDovbnia
@SashaDovbnia Жыл бұрын
Please check if there are no connection between compression bolts and the modules in pack. Looks like I saw a video with damaged pack, where some of thin leafs from the modules touches that bolts.
@SashaDovbnia
@SashaDovbnia Жыл бұрын
Please look at this video kzbin.info/www/bejne/sKKuZGOqq9Zmo5I
@pashko90
@pashko90 Жыл бұрын
Yes, "carreapirvideo" did it on KZbin. I remember leakage thru a stud holes.
@stephenmatich5945
@stephenmatich5945 Жыл бұрын
The voltmeter measures against a high resistance load, (the internal voltmeter resistance is very high). It would yeild more information if you can adjust the load that you are measuring the voltage drop across. So put a variable resistance of some sort in the path and measure the voltage drop across that. Provided your resistor is rated high enough wattage. I'm thinking internal damage to the cells (internal resistance of the battery coming in to play) will have a different characteristic to an insulation problem.
@zaprodk
@zaprodk Жыл бұрын
Since the cells are super low resistance, i would think it would be safe to use a Mega-ohmmeter (Megger) to see if it can locate the weak spot. It works wonders for mains wiring.
@DalasEVRepair
@DalasEVRepair Жыл бұрын
Yes, I will try this, I got a meter last week!
@zxggwrt
@zxggwrt Жыл бұрын
Yes I guess it’s like our micro ohm meter we use to test all connections in a string of batteries. It’s easy to see which connection needs help.
@zaprodk
@zaprodk Жыл бұрын
@@zxggwrt nope, it's the exact opposite. It's not meant to find that low of a resistance. I think the lowest reading you can see accurately is around 1 ohm. But the trick is, it uses 250, 500 or 1000V for measuring instead of a couple of volts. This makes bad insulation show up.
@philippegillet1892
@philippegillet1892 Жыл бұрын
Hello Dalla, good work you found the module but it must be one of the pouches inside of the module so you must disassemble that module and inspect each pouches it seems that mr coutiernicho knows so just replace it and use that battery again in your car
@rhiantaylor3446
@rhiantaylor3446 Жыл бұрын
I guess most of us will be keen to know if there are any simple tests to check a battery pack before buying. For example, would a resistance/isolation check between HV connector pins and the case show us a leaky pack or do we need the pack to be installed in a car with contactors "on".
@bernardperaldi7488
@bernardperaldi7488 Жыл бұрын
I think that the compression was at the place of the deformation of the sheet. But when you tighten the 4 nuts, the compression load is not at the point of impact on the sheet.
@g7vqedave2
@g7vqedave2 Жыл бұрын
As @Bernard Peraldi above, with the pack removed you're not actually tightening the battery case down to what might be the distorted surface of the battery tray. You can either bolt the pack back in and repeat the insulation test there or bolt the battery pack down to a flat (two layers of 18mm plywood) surface on a workbench and deliberately introduce a distortion onto the surrogate battery tray surface with a spacer of some sort to effectively distort the battery case deliberately while checking for a voltage leak.
@pekkis924
@pekkis924 Жыл бұрын
Thanks for the video. Very interesting stuff. I'm sure you will figure it all out.
@stevemit2858
@stevemit2858 Жыл бұрын
Could it be related to a torsion issue? By that I mean, when you bolt the battery back into the base it could be twisting the cell casing slightly. It twists just enough that driving vibrations start to shift the internal pouch cells by micrometers, causing it to either wear away or permeate the isolation material and contact the outer casing? It’s just a thought.
@nickschultz1244
@nickschultz1244 Жыл бұрын
I would have to say that something likely shifted when you took the compression bolts out, and personally I would not trust this stack to be reliable long term unless you can tell for sure what shifted and that it can be repositioned where it belongs. For my own curiosity I would next use a megger to check the stack to chassis, if something is really close to touching you will find it with that. In the railway industry we use Hi Pot testers to find defects like this in the high voltage traction circuit but that may be overkill for this😂Can't wait to hear the follow up and thanks as always for an informative video :)
@Silverfoxwolfen
@Silverfoxwolfen Жыл бұрын
If it has been involved in an accident at some point that compression point is the number one suspect on it all. It could be as simple as a small segement touched down internally and when you released and moved it the fault point moved enough to not come back under compression. Given the amount of work to remove and refit I'd just throw a replacement stack at it and realign all the bolts and the like back again.
@JimWattsHereNow
@JimWattsHereNow Жыл бұрын
Does the fact it was 12v to ground from one terminal, and 24v from the other give you a pointer to where in the cell pack the ground fault is/was?
@pashko90
@pashko90 Жыл бұрын
Yes, you right, damage/fault is somewhere in a a top/bottom 1/3 of the pack. I would inspect balance lead connections, maybe where is a small tolerance to a module ground and colission shifted something too close/something get bent a bit or scratched.
@barryw9473
@barryw9473 Жыл бұрын
Maybe you need to take a very close look at white “insulation” in pack - are there any small holes? Can you add another layer near shifted cell stack? Any loose pieces of metal in tray?
@Freeze-WJ
@Freeze-WJ Жыл бұрын
The Dent itself looks like it was made with a forklift for instance... The presumed shift/slide of the pouches in the pack could be explained by this, the pack sliding of the forklift and dropping on concrete? That's a hell of alot of G's with no deceleration distance whatsoever!
@DalasEVRepair
@DalasEVRepair Жыл бұрын
Yep, the battery had some classic forklift lovetaps! Will need to tweak lots of points on the inside!
@معاويةالوحيدي-ث7ك
@معاويةالوحيدي-ث7ك Жыл бұрын
Your channel is amazing , i had alot of knowledge about ev batteies, can you explain what is the isolation problem ?
@DalasEVRepair
@DalasEVRepair Жыл бұрын
See this video for more info on what an isolation problem is: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZmHIdp2VesyAl9U
@Evolution56
@Evolution56 Жыл бұрын
I would take apart that module and examine the pouch cells carefully, and measure voltages before reassembling the whole pack. I don't think that dent had anything to do with this. The hard collision has compromised the internal structure of one of the cells. Good luck!
@DalasEVRepair
@DalasEVRepair Жыл бұрын
The module casing is unfortunately welded together, so it is considered a non-serviceable component. But I will take some more measurements in the next video!
@petermuller2583
@petermuller2583 Жыл бұрын
nice videos my friend, you really add value to the community. quick question, is it possible to remove the top speed limiter on newer leafs? the 62kwh version is capped at 165kmh can that be removed? also, would it be bad for the battery/motor? would be interesting to know!
@DalasEVRepair
@DalasEVRepair Жыл бұрын
No, the 165km/h corresponds to >10kRPM , so going higher would over-rev the motor.
@TheHauttis
@TheHauttis Жыл бұрын
just put everything together and the modules directly. what else can you try?😅
@kasparskalnins4823
@kasparskalnins4823 Жыл бұрын
The Rods are steel, if some cell is little bit unpricise, it can give voltage to the rod. Once One Ukranian disasembled the pack with the same problem. He just covered up the Rods with isolation tube and the problem was gone. It was 40kW pack. This problem was not in 24kW packs.
@DalasEVRepair
@DalasEVRepair Жыл бұрын
I think simply unbolting and releasing the tension (and shifting the electrolyte) is what atleast temporarily fixes the modules! It is good that the bolts are steel, having the system unable to detect leaks would be quite dangerous.
@antoniopalmero4063
@antoniopalmero4063 Жыл бұрын
Still worth what you paid , hope you get it sorted out .🇬🇧
@xdellavedova
@xdellavedova Жыл бұрын
I think of a problem of insulation in the holes where the bolts pass to put lock the battery. I would try to isolate these bolts
@FinnoUgricMachining
@FinnoUgricMachining Жыл бұрын
Since there was this dent in the bottom right under this cell, there might have been some pressure from the underside of the cell. To emulate this pressure a C-clamp might be used. Have a thick steel plate at the top of the cell in order to spread the pressure at the top of the cell. Then place the C-clamp approximately at the place of the dent and squeeze. Another possibility is the misplacement of the cell. Maybe they did not loosen the attaching bolts for good lookibg cells and only replaced the bad ones or none after the crash. When You loosened the cells, the cell frame straightened and now there is no more leak.
@DalasEVRepair
@DalasEVRepair Жыл бұрын
Yes I will clamp it harder and take more measurements with a dedicated insulation tester!
@ciscokidfab7595
@ciscokidfab7595 3 ай бұрын
Could one use a heat gun with the blade for separating the case.
@kennethbarli4469
@kennethbarli4469 Жыл бұрын
I think a cell tab in the module has been in contact with the housing. I would open this module, to see that all cell tabs are located correctly. maybe it's only 0.1mm between tab and housing now. Then a temperature change can cause it to come into contact with the housing again, and the same problem occurs. Then I would loosen everything in the battery pack, so you can put everything back correctly. After that, I'm sure you can use the battery without any worries. The cells in the battery can actually withstand major mechanical damage and still function perfectly well. If you stick a screwdriver through a cell, it doesn't catch fire, it just grinds and smokes a bit, but the cell still works. Having said that, you should never use a cell that leaks. But the cells in the Leaf are among the safest used in any electric car. How often have you heard about a battery fire in a Nissan Leaf?
@DalasEVRepair
@DalasEVRepair Жыл бұрын
Good idea, will do this in the next video!
@stealthhack
@stealthhack Жыл бұрын
ballance all cells, check for continuity, before closing the battery, i think the whole battery pack is ok, the drop in the voltage on 4 cells must be because of the leakage, double and triple check for leakage before closing the battery.
@pashko90
@pashko90 Жыл бұрын
Unbalanced moules and modules with isolation fault is 2 different modules.
@jaroslav-jaroslavsson
@jaroslav-jaroslavsson Жыл бұрын
From the voltages it looks like short circuit connection to ground somewhere in the 2/3 or 1/3 fo serial string of cell. You cen exactly count which of serially connected cells in module was leaking from the voltage of cells and the leakage voltage. I expect it will be somewhere in the middle. Dent on the bottom could have nothing to do with the issue. Locate the cell and you will see what is bad. Are the side walls or the area where are cells connected each to other ok? May be the module was shifted from the forces from accident and something touched the metal cover from inside. I am just guessing that in front there are 7S, middle is 4s and rear are 9s configuration so it should be short circuit between connection 3rd and 4rd cell to the ground. Good luck!
@antonisdimakis7118
@antonisdimakis7118 Жыл бұрын
Hi Dala. Thank you for sharing. Have you checked the isolated busbars of this module for breaks on the insulation? I know this is a simple thought, but you never know.
@kennethericsson3587
@kennethericsson3587 Жыл бұрын
Can you do insulation test with a hipot tester like Finero.. the cells have to withstand atleast 500vac insulation test in 1 minutes
@zaprodk
@zaprodk Жыл бұрын
Exactly. My best guess as well
@Windraver
@Windraver Жыл бұрын
Seems like a tricky situation. A weak module that you charge to balance, if weak will eventually imbalance itself again. I remember some other Leaf owners mentioned something about testing the modules under heavy load. Essentially "weak" cells would drastically drop in voltage when flooring the accelerator. A bit tricky to "replicate" that load but it's something to test and verify if your weak cell will end up losing balance again. And the worst is a weak cell shorting and frying the rest of the pack like mine did. As for the shorting pack... I'd personally replace it. I guess tldr, replace both modules. These should be specially manufactured so I don't think they disassemble as easily as the 40kwh modules. You could try out of curiosity and see if you can repair it but my gut tells me the high density leaves it more vulnerable to physical damage and as you said, these are damaged. If you have an isolation issue once, you'll get it again. Also to properly replicate the isolation, you would actually need a bottom plate to mount it to right? I don't think the bolts are enough as the shell flexes. Either ways, you don't want to be surprised by an issue you didn't fix with certainty while on the road in a 3500lb moving vehicle.
@janneneuvonen9170
@janneneuvonen9170 Жыл бұрын
Battery box is bent. When you tight screws in to pack + battery box something will touch wrong place inside pack, or just it bent and cell insulation fails.
@avtuh-com
@avtuh-com Жыл бұрын
Need put back to main battery place and measure again. And I would use vacuum to clean some extra dust. Industrial dust always present. Thanks.
@phonie
@phonie Жыл бұрын
Hi Dala, one of the pouch cells of the individual battery packs may have become defective due to the mechanical stress of an accident, this may only have an effect when the entire pack is pressed. Perhaps use an insulation tester (approx. 1000 volts) to carry out an insulation test on several cells in the block in question.
@armandoargueta9712
@armandoargueta9712 Жыл бұрын
Dala, can you help finding the spec on a 40Kwh battery? I have the same issue internal battery pack insulation leak. I am not able to find a vedio or spec on it. Thank you
@DalasEVRepair
@DalasEVRepair Жыл бұрын
You can use the measurements from the 2015 24kWh pack, the details are close enough with cell layout and values: www.nicoclub.com/service-manual?fsm=Leaf%2F2015%2Fevb.pdf
@CrAzYDr1veR
@CrAzYDr1veR Жыл бұрын
check the module on the left because the busbar was still in contact when mesuring the leak
@DalasEVRepair
@DalasEVRepair Жыл бұрын
That busbar goes to the service disconnect swith (which is empty)
@CrAzYDr1veR
@CrAzYDr1veR Жыл бұрын
maybe compressing the cells in the complete battery puts more force, if possible try to disassemble the cells maybe one is leaking electrolyte and that will conduct electricity to ground. The only people i saw opening the cells are the samurai guy of the pikes peak leaf when they added cooling to the cells and had to place cooling sheets between them.
@angelmoneramartinez1980
@angelmoneramartinez1980 Жыл бұрын
I think the first thing will be reproduce the leak.. put it where it was, (no dent repaired) screw it down and check if you have a torque wrench, check how much do you need to tight the battery to start measuring something... if you manage to reproduce it, then you can extract it, and put the battery on top of a metal plate with a nut/ screw (small one) underneath... that way you are replicating the conditions outside the battery pack... if you see the problem, then the problem is 100% identified... then you can dig a bit more... disasambling the battery and checking for damage on each cell, or you can think in solving the problem... you can replace the module or just simple flat the spot, then put some soft foam isolation (just a bit more, just in case).. then close the pack and enjoy as it is... (of course if you can replace it together with the front cell that is damaged would be perfect... but if you dont find a replacement, then just enjoy what you have
@notenoughtime23
@notenoughtime23 Жыл бұрын
When working on hevy cells like that please keep them on a trolley so if things go bad you can quickly get the pack outside.
@DalasEVRepair
@DalasEVRepair Жыл бұрын
Good tip!
@g0fvt
@g0fvt Жыл бұрын
I know I am very late to this, I wonder if the small dent is the result of the pack being lifted on a forklift at some time. I would have investigated using Kapton tape if you can identify where the leakage occurred but I am sure you have a solution by now.
@DalasEVRepair
@DalasEVRepair Жыл бұрын
Yes it got solved, watch the later videos! That dent was just minor, cosmetic only! Most likely forklift yes.
@g0fvt
@g0fvt Жыл бұрын
@@DalasEVRepair thank you for the swift reply, and yes I did go on to watch the later video. Well done with all your work, your channel was recommended by "Transport Evolved".
@smartguy2728
@smartguy2728 Жыл бұрын
many times I faced cells that liquid come out of pouch and make isolation.
@zaprodk
@zaprodk Жыл бұрын
I think you mean breakdown.
@JeffS_EV_Talks
@JeffS_EV_Talks Жыл бұрын
Great video, I can’t wait to see the root cause. The person that worked at a dealership seems to have the best advise. Determine their cell and replace it. Or is the BMS damaged?
@jeremylister89
@jeremylister89 Жыл бұрын
Measure isolation with high voltage tester. The cells will have an isolation spec. It might be VERY HIGH, I would not be surprised if it were >3,000 volts ac or > 4,500V dc. If that seems high, bear in mind something like a metal cased Sky+ set-top PVR box is tested to 3,000V ac for 1 minute
@leaf_for_life
@leaf_for_life Жыл бұрын
Hi. You should test condition of the next module(to the left from this one). The point of insulation will be with no voltage to body, but with low resistance.
@DalasEVRepair
@DalasEVRepair Жыл бұрын
Thanks, will measure more in next video!
@kevinison5539
@kevinison5539 Жыл бұрын
Your meter is very sensitive with tens of meg ohms impedance, so even the slightest leakage through moisture or contamination will be seen. It would have been useful to have put a resistor across the meter leads to see if the voltage collapsed to show if something is physically touching or if you're looking for highly resistive leakage path such as moisture or other residue before removing any covers or screws. Hope u have it sorted now.
@DalasEVRepair
@DalasEVRepair Жыл бұрын
I have an insulation tester that I will bring out in the next video!
@kevinison5539
@kevinison5539 Жыл бұрын
@Dala's EV Repair Insulation testers such as mega (other brands are available) usually have selectable test voltages ranging to 1000v and more. Im not sure what connector you were probing to the case, but testing with these high voltages has the potential to damage circuits and sensors within the packs bms. I guess you've probably sorted it by now, but thought I would offer a word of caution just in case.
@andrewthompsonuk1
@andrewthompsonuk1 Жыл бұрын
@@DalasEVRepair That's going to be interesting, is there any electronics around the battery pack that needs to be removed for the insulation testing.
@benbaselet2026
@benbaselet2026 Жыл бұрын
The LoZ mode on your meter should work faster for the measurement because it introduces a bit of load to the circuit and discharges the capacitor quickly?
@DalasEVRepair
@DalasEVRepair Жыл бұрын
Good idea!
@alibro7512
@alibro7512 Жыл бұрын
The cell was being crushed in the centre from below. Hammering out the dent will remove the crushing force so it will probably be OK but has the cell been irreparably damaged? Clearly it was not a serious safety issue as it was only 12V to ground so safety is not a concern here. Only you know if it is worth trying it again with this cell as it is your time you will be wasting should it fail again. How much are replacement cells (if available) How much is your time worth?
@LeszekStefaniak
@LeszekStefaniak Жыл бұрын
I saw such damage - the cell was touching the screw. There should be marks on the cell and the screw. Just put insulation on the compression screw.
@aminorjourney
@aminorjourney Жыл бұрын
Is it possible to investigate the accident that the battery pack was involved with? I'm assuming the pack was tied with a VIN number - does Finland have a national database of insurance write-offs? Might give us more of a clue as to what actually happened. - Nikki.
@DanBurgaud
@DanBurgaud Жыл бұрын
8:30 when you are measuring voltage at this point, isnt the terminal still connected to the other cell?
@DalasEVRepair
@DalasEVRepair Жыл бұрын
Yes, but that terminal goes to the empty service disconnect switch, so no other cell!
@DaleKlein
@DaleKlein Жыл бұрын
If it's an electrolyte leak, (sad, sorry), maybe it's capillary action which sucked the electrolyte back into the cracks between pouches and plastic between cells, when it was uncompressed, and cleared the short. If it's a leak, see if there is room at the edges or corners of the cells, maybe from the tab end, to gently push a q-tip small cotton swab, or sliver of stiff paper inside, and does it come out wet or green with electrolyte.
@DalasEVRepair
@DalasEVRepair Жыл бұрын
Yes, most likely I will need a replacement module. The electrolyte is transparent, so very hard to spot these!
@DaleKlein
@DaleKlein Жыл бұрын
If so, since the 62 packs and modules are scarce, I wonder if a Scandinavian EV genius could reload that module with cells from a 40 module. I'm very sorry about the trouble you've run into this time, but I'm on the edge of my seat to see exactly what is the root cause and how you fix it.
@jinny7
@jinny7 Жыл бұрын
Was there anything else beyond the compression bolts that's missing to try recreate the issue here
@BenFenner
@BenFenner Жыл бұрын
I'm probably way too late for this, but I'm curious if just the dented casing was touching the bottom of that cell stack which caused the isolation issue? You could confirm by just electrically connecting the bottom of that cell stack to the outer battery casing to see if that would cause the isolation problem?
@DalasEVRepair
@DalasEVRepair Жыл бұрын
No the dent was actually not high enough. Red herring!
@BenFenner
@BenFenner Жыл бұрын
After reading some of the other replies, I guess as much. =/ It would also by a pretty awful design if that were the case. =D
@hikingpete
@hikingpete Жыл бұрын
I'm a little confused - you show the isolation problem on one pack at t=7:45, but at t=11:00 and on, you seem to be testing the corner pack instead. Weren't the isolation problem and the voltage problem on different packs?
@mr.wizeguy8995
@mr.wizeguy8995 Жыл бұрын
You got it wrong, look those numbers top of pack. Dala is testing same pack with 37,08 number on top. Corner pack has number 37,11.
@lambasurm
@lambasurm Жыл бұрын
I don't think crash damage is the cause, rather a coincidence. Disassemble, assemble, torque properly. If no physical leak, replacement is not mandatory.
@DalasEVRepair
@DalasEVRepair Жыл бұрын
Thanks, I'll do some more measurements first, stay tuned for next video!
@fix-and-drive-diy-repairs
@fix-and-drive-diy-repairs Жыл бұрын
I think the crash was too violent and it may have affected some of the cells in that module(marked X). I would also do a thorough check on the module that has lower voltage because is very rare for these batteries to just go off balance. All the best.
@DalasEVRepair
@DalasEVRepair Жыл бұрын
Thanks, will do!
@ChrisBigBad
@ChrisBigBad Жыл бұрын
Hi Dala! I don't understand how manually balancing the one stack would fix anything. Because I'd think that the car should do this on its own - does it not? And if voltage levels get adjusted, would it not just simply go out of whack later on because of some internal defect of the cells? What caused the imbalance in the first place? Some temporary leakage during the accident or something more permanent? As for the leak: No idea. How expensive is a replacement stack? What is the worst that could happen? unexpected shutdown? fire?
@DalasEVRepair
@DalasEVRepair Жыл бұрын
The balancing is very weak on the Nissan BMS, it can only shunt 2.5mA , so letting it balance on its own would take months, even years! Better to do it while the battery is open. Replacement stack from Nissan is 7000€. Will need to source a used replacement. Worst thing that could happen is more unexpected shutdowns. The system is very sensitive, it triggers on a 380kOhm leak to GND.
@ChrisBigBad
@ChrisBigBad Жыл бұрын
@@DalasEVRepair Hm. Try to reproduce the fault by shoving and banging on the stack until it bodges - or not. If you're able to use the car as a Beta Product (failures possible) for a while, then I'd keep the old stack. The longer the battery works without fault, the less likely it is to happen again. It should then be promoted from Beta to fully usable after a few months. Cracking the battery open again is possible, while not really desirable, eh? But that would be the money poor, time rich way. Not sure if that suits your life. Do you think the unbalanced stack will go out of whack again? Can you measure internal resistance? Maybe connect a toaster and see how much the voltage drops, compared to other stacks...
@wva5089
@wva5089 Жыл бұрын
put it back.. and draw a 1amp load from that module and the frame .. and use a thermal camera to show where the heat is.
@DalasEVRepair
@DalasEVRepair Жыл бұрын
Interesting idea!
@n2sty
@n2sty Жыл бұрын
May be the dent was putting pressure on the module unbolting it relieved the pressure
@dama054
@dama054 Жыл бұрын
Slacken everything off re align everything tighten everything back up and see how it goes
@VicGreenBitcoin
@VicGreenBitcoin Жыл бұрын
Can you not simply return the broken battery?
@DalasEVRepair
@DalasEVRepair Жыл бұрын
After painting it and opening it up? I think that is a warranty void if I ever saw one :) No but the seller was a private person, not a company!
@DaleKlein
@DaleKlein Жыл бұрын
Look carefully at the particular cell tabs, indicated by the ~12v and 24v seen between the terminals and the case, that's particular cell tab that was touching the case. How about checking the balance lead wires, maybe one has been pinched.
@DalasEVRepair
@DalasEVRepair Жыл бұрын
The issue was still there without any balancing wires connected, but I will inspect the front of the module more in next video!
@martymar7465
@martymar7465 Жыл бұрын
Hi i would leave module tighten like this and charge it up to the max level than discharge if thermal expansion will return the isolation fault if not i would put it back
@robertgregory8964
@robertgregory8964 Жыл бұрын
You just clamped the end plates at the corners giving point contact. Maybe use the clamp brackets to create line contact at the edges.
@DalasEVRepair
@DalasEVRepair Жыл бұрын
Good idea!
@mondotv4216
@mondotv4216 Жыл бұрын
I'd knock out that dent, realign everything correctly put it back together and do a further insulation test. There doesnt appear to be anything physically or electrically wrong with the cell module itself. I'd defintely capacity test that low cell to see if it matches the others while you have the battery apart - it may need replacing.
@DalasEVRepair
@DalasEVRepair Жыл бұрын
Good idea, more measuring incoming!
@barryw9473
@barryw9473 Жыл бұрын
If pack did not have isolation problem, would BMS charge up that module that was 30 mV lower than others?
@anthonyevans7911
@anthonyevans7911 Жыл бұрын
Can you dismantle that block and lay it our into individual cells and then examine them carefully. If any electrolyte has leaked from any block or bank of cells id scrap them off. If the individual cells look ok when dismantled and they are not electrically leaking, then id put them back together, bolt the case up, and install it back in the car and run it for a few hundred / a thousand km and re assess. AT the end of thet day you have nothing to loose at this point. Great video, and good luck with it.
@EVtripper
@EVtripper Жыл бұрын
I would put it back together with more insulating paper on the bottom where the dent was. See if you can keep it going.
@DalasEVRepair
@DalasEVRepair Жыл бұрын
Already fixed in the next videos!
@sveip
@sveip Жыл бұрын
Sorry to hear about the bad news Dala, one question though, did you get the pack from Norway, and how does the seller react to the situation? Will they refund you, at least partially? And would you then get back the import tax in Finland (for the difference?)
@DalasEVRepair
@DalasEVRepair Жыл бұрын
This was from a private seller in Sweden, so no company warranty! I don't blame anyone for not knowing that the battery pack was too damaged, this is very hard to spot!
@sveip
@sveip Жыл бұрын
@@DalasEVRepair very understandable. Good luck on getting it repaired.
@rhiantaylor3446
@rhiantaylor3446 Жыл бұрын
The comment from Nicholas Cloutier suggests that the sub unit is faulty and Nissan would have replaced it if this had manifested before the accident. Lacking availability of a replacement, I would personally sell off all the other sub modules to recover costs. Over time we may see if Nicholas' comments are supported elsewhere and what this means for the usability of the 62kwh pack outside of a Nissan warrantied car.
@DalasEVRepair
@DalasEVRepair Жыл бұрын
Yes, looks like Nissan always goes with a replacement. The modules cost ~7000€ via Nissan. We will need to find a used one!
@yeldarBkereD
@yeldarBkereD Жыл бұрын
I would reinstall the battery cells and hook everything up to the car to see if anything has changed. I can't tell you how many issues Ive resolved over the years doing nothing but investigating the problem. It could have been an unsecured or loose connection that you fixed by removing and reinstalling. Too bad there aren't battery extension cords for your car :)
@Kallenator1988
@Kallenator1988 Жыл бұрын
Further disassemble the stack where the fault was, if that dent has in any way pushed onto the pouches inside you might be able to see this on the bottom one, and that would be smart to investigate.
@pashko90
@pashko90 Жыл бұрын
You need angle grinder or a drill at this point. By Nissan manual, module is non serviceable component and needs to be replaced as a whole assembly.
@Kallenator1988
@Kallenator1988 Жыл бұрын
@@pashko90 Did not know, that's a bummer.
@gino2465
@gino2465 Жыл бұрын
If it's had an impact could it have damaged the inside cell.
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