7 Deadly Sins of MMO Design - 5: Wrath - Forced Interaction or PVP

[@kennethferland5579]

Lets admit that plenty of PvP players aren't looking for challenge, they are looking for tears to drink.

[@Kalgert]

Have a look at any forum for Sea of Thieves, and you will have a lot of people go wild if someone suspects that players are interested in easy targets.

[@excaliburofgachagames9241]

Bdo afk killers are pretty much that... and cowards

[@Overload151]

The main reason I couldn't get into EVE Online. In that game PvP is not really optional, and there are campers, you get into a solar system and there are 2-3 ships destroying everything that comes into the system, usually less experienced players, and/or small ships that can't fight back on their on (those cowards...) There are players that hunt explorers, like thieves. Explorers ships with almost no guns and standard defenses wander in dangerous space looking for expensive loot, but then get hunted by other players with attack ships, sometimes they are defending their territory, other times they get into those spaces looking for weak ships to hunt!!

[@shingfanchan9801]

Many PVP players do not look for a fair fight, they just want to bully the weak.

[@JohnSmith-kb4re]

@@shingfanchan9801 and likely have a history of bullying in real life.

[@sethrich5032]

The reason I hate PVP is because they chase the Meta HARD. And the best way to kill other players is always the most annoying and frustrating to play against.

[@almalone3282]

Why do mmo devs never balance pvp properly

[@TheFoxtailedSamurai]

@@almalone3282 because no one can agree on what balance looks like. Is it every class has the same chance to win vs every other class? Then usually every class feels super homogenized and arbitrary. Do you make it so that all gear is normalized? Then it kills the PVPers drive to get gear and feels bad. Is it letting certain classes be extremely strong versus others in a kind of RPS situation? "X class is too strong please nerf"

[@resengan123]

ahh i remember blade and soul pvp on release week before the summoner nerf. loops of stealth, run , heal , pet ground pounds , lay traps wait for cds. i wasn't chasing any meta, but was most definitely annoying.

[@jakerockznoodles]

Exactly, in both MMOs and standard single player RPGs, I tend to pick classes and play styles that have a more specific or specialised utility. That's how I get immersed in my character, and usually that will mean not having the "optimal build".

[@X1erra]

Most Mobile game PvP are notorious for their lack of balance, especially because there's no such thing as level syncing to create an even playing field. You can only go so far with your "still on midgame" roster while only the endgame players and whales get to compete on a higher level, and only whales get to be #1.

[@ladrok97]

14:00 is more reason to it. In PVP you HAVE TO follow META. In PVE you can enjoy using "your" build, which is not optimal, but enough for you. In PVP without optimal choices you have even greater disadvantage

[@obsidianflight8065]

and in pve there is min maxers but those can be ignored from solo play

[@Aurirang]

Very strong point there is Path of exile. You do have an Arena or even a special 'mode' where you can specifically create characters for the arena to duke it out with other players. The solo part is huge and the amount of different builds possible is more akin to endless. Yes, you have certain meta-builds which change from seasion, to season. But you can also go back to your trusty cyclone and spin through an entire map if you like. Or go raising your firey/frosty/whatever skeletons or haunt the enemy with a few hundred arrows from above. There was (or still is?) an older Mmo called 'Nostale (no, i won't recommend, it. When i left it about 10 years ago, it was CRAP) They had introduced a new part of the story, just as explained in the video, that was fully PvP. You could be murdered from the sideline without ever being able to do anything about it. Your character was assigned an alignement, either dark or light. The dark alignemented would be able to attack the light ones andd vice versa. Sinc eit was also guild-based, this often lead to one side being practically stalled for months because the 'enemy' was camping right outside their safe map. And of course, you had to do quests in the whole area. Another point is, there was a raid and depending who was dominant got to do that raid. The other group just never stood a chance. I think that was my single worst experience with an MMo ever.

[@kelvinramos214]

you cant even if you do raids or dungeons depending on the game

[@ladrok97]

@@kelvinramos214 Yeah, but there are plenty of games where you don't need to have optimal build to defeat dungeon. Mostly is eq thing (which probably drop from this particular dungeon) and even if this is skill thing, then you can change it "easy". I.e. in Rift I and friend in 2 defeated most of dungeons (we ended one shoted by 50 lvl while having 47 and were not motivated enough to get 50) - we could do so, because changing skills was easy. In Riders of Icarus most of skills is aquired throught lvl up, so you can't mess things up and later skills require "taming points" for changing them and you can get unlimited storage of 100 points potion from daily missions (which take 30s - "tame monster withnin 3 lvl of you"), so it's takes only some time (you can also buy sealed creatures from market if you do not wish to catch monsters yourself)

[@nobodyshome6792]

That concept doesn't apply for all games. Let's take Medievia (old school MUD, or the original style of MMOs.) There is the 'meta' build for each class that the majority of players use. Those players tend to fail at PvP due to the fact that skill is actually more important than the stats in the majority of cases. I run a specific build. It is vastly different than others who play the same class as I. They all use the 'meta' build, while I utilize a non-meta build. Compare. Meta Build. Average damage output, high health, high AC. Non-meta Build. Extremely high damage output, high AC, damage nullification, average health. Which of those is better suited for PvP ? Judt because the meta build has 30% more health doesn't make it better, especially when the non-meta build has double the damage output combined with outright damage nullification. The same can be said about many other games. Sometimes the non-meta build is the better build. Sometimes that build then becomes the Meta build, sometimes the Meta Build attempts to change to combat that specialized setup. And this is all on top of the differences in skill, tactics and inventiveness of the players. So using a Meta build is not always the optimal choice for PvP, it is just the *easy* choice.

[@DalmarWolf]

Always been a PVE player, never enjoyed it when I've been forced to engaged in PVP. You put it very succinctly.

[@Ravenoustoxic]

I recommend you to play Albion online.. great PvE MMO.

[@Nirual86]

whenever I do enjoy some PVP its always stuff with specific objectives rather than just killing eachother. Feels more like strategic decisions can matter more than just raw reflexes and combat skill.

[@rolfs2165]

@@Ravenoustoxic Funny you'd recommend Albion when just three comments down someone else said that forced PvP is why they're not playing it.

[@Ravenoustoxic]

@@rolfs2165 im trolling

[@4_dennyfauzulhakim479]

@@Ravenoustoxic lol, u wish. Albion online is like one of the main perpetrator of this sin.

[@hovlo426]

"I fear no man..but that THING-" *Party Finder* "-it scares me"

[@JoshStrifeHayes]

Yep, trust the system to pair you with decent people

[@catriona_drummond]

@@JoshStrifeHayes I fear it too because I am never good enough and I can literally feel the eyes of the others on me: "look at that noob, she'll mess up any second now." and tnen I do because with that pressure to perform you avoid that group and dungeonfinder at all possible cost and therefore never get better.

[@TheManofthecross]

i fear nothing for i am fear incarnate.

[@excaliburofgachagames9241]

Never party finder on hard dungeons winter

[@lawrencelopez9839]

ff14 duty finder is so nice, mostly everyone's so pleasant

[@defaultv.7959]

3:30 Usually play alone myself in MMO's, sometimes someone walks up and asks for help or just talks and it feels nice to lend a hand or have a friendly conversation with them. It is also nice being able to slip in and out of parties with ease, not having to obligate myself to being so many people's "Hey 'friend', can you help me with this?" person. It's relaxing being the Kind Stranger they totally forgot 5 minutes later instead.

[@LauWG]

What if I told you, that they did not forget your kindness?

[@Cutesune]

I feel like you give too much credit to PvP players. My open PvP experiences tend to be less about two humans, duking it out and trying to outsmart one another, and more frequently the aggressor will attack the victim when they are confident they have a huge advantage over their target; perhaps they out-gear them, perhaps they have friends and out-number them, or perhaps the target is already fighting PvE mobs, and thus is already injured, and are at a major disadvantage defending themselves. And, at the very least, the aggressor will always get the opening attack, giving them the ability to dictate the terms of engagement, This also leads me to suspect the driving motive for those kinds of PvP, are not the challenge of defeating another thinking human in an equal battle, but the trollish glee of having screwed someone over. This also means the PVE players objections are less that they had to engage in a fight with an enemy who's actions were unlearnable, and more that the whole engagement was rigged against them from the outset. Your explanation, that PvE players dislike and fail at PvP because their thinking is highly focused on rotation, sounds more like the sort of thing that I'd expect a more self-aware PvP player might tell themselves to soothe their doubts about the morality of having just ganked someone who chose not to attack first.

[@peterlopez2388]

You worded that perfectly. 100% agree

[@MarinaMichaels]

Agreed. PvE is about a whole lot more than fighting bosses. In ESO, for example, you can quest, gather materials, craft, fish, decorate your houses, play with clothing appearances, read books, explore, pursue achievements that don't require fighting...I can keep going. But PvP in any game is entirely and solely about fighting other real human beings. When PvP is consensual, I have no issue with it. Let PvPers have their fun. But it's not okay when a game has events that force PvE players to participate in PvP or to miss out on the event rewards. ESO does that a few times a year. Sure, you have an alternative to missing out: You can spend real money (and not just microtransactions) to pay for the tickets you need to buy the event rewards. The analogy is "We're not *forcing* you to get ganked. It was your choice to walk down that dark alley. You could spend real money to avoid it." FFXIV is the only MMO I know where PvP is entirely consensual and optional.

[@SH-gf6sh]

Pretty much. I played Classic WoW on a PVP server up to 60, and once I hit lvl 50, almost every lvl 60 enemy I encountered would kill me just for that miniscule amount of honor points. Being 10 levels down I'd have no chance. PVP'ers caring about challenging duels with evenly matched opponents is the biggest cope I've ever seen, years of PVP realms have shown the opposite.

[@fadedjem]

This. PvP belongs in Arenas. When everyone knows that they are in a PvP match, knows how many enemies there are, how many allies they have, knows that the map is bounded and that the sole motivator is competitive drive, then PvP makes sense. Surprise and ambush and strategy are still possible in a well designed arena or multiplayer match. I have absolutely no quarrel with people who play arena modes in MMOs, or who play CoD multiplayer, or online games of Age of Empires. That is consensual MP. Of COURSE consensual and competitive PvP is possible in open world persistent games. If it weren't possible, only true psychopaths would take part in such games. It only takes 5 or 10% of PvP engagements to be remotely competitive for people to rationalise the whole thing to themselves. But any open world, persistent game with unavoidable, full loot PvP is by its very nature built on griefing and ganking.

[@ygaudreault]

In Runescape, when someone targets me while I am doing PVE in the wildy... It's ok, I get that it's the risk of doing stuff there. Cant respect the PKer that targets PVEer tough, they just prey on people who aren't geared to fight back.

[@Serechor]

I'm late, but there is one thing that irritated me about forced PVP: class meta. I like to play mages and support, and mmo games have taught me that there will always be a class that is better equipped for PVP. No matter what you do, you will almost always fail against them. You're forced to battle when, possibly, your class isn't even optimized to fight in PVP, yet you're still forced to due to quests, certain loot, and special materials.

[@monkeybtm6]

FINALLY, someone who explains why people like me want to play MMO's but not play with other people.

[@JoshStrifeHayes]

Sometimes its nice to be alone, but still exist within a world you know is alive

[@JohnSmith-ox3gy]

Introverted humans are still humans, and humans are social. It's nice to hang out with friends even if you don't talk much.

[@JoshStrifeHayes]

@@JohnSmith-ox3gy some people like to exist in a living, breathing world without talking to anyone. Forcing social interaction is something many people hate.

[@boredfangerrude]

If you want to never play with other players, then MMOs are not for you. You HAVE to be willing to interact with other players at least on occasion otherwise, an MMO is NOT an MMO, it's a glorified single player game.

[@monkeybtm6]

​@@boredfangerrude did you even watch the video or you just want to tell people they play their games wrong?

[@pberci93]

Open world PvP is just locust swarms of players roaming around and messing up everything in their path. Not for any real gains, just to make the life of others harder, and also to be protected from suffering the same fate. I haven't seen a single game that could address this properly but could compile a pretty long list of games that got f-ed up this way.

[@duncanlutz3698]

This. Open world PVP zones with daily/weekly quests to kill other players always boils down to "lynch mobs." Each faction has their swarm that roams around looking for smaller swarms or lone players. Large groups of relative power often ignore each other as it's not worth duking it out. Everyone is just looking for the vulnerable players and they ALWAYS run when they notice the large group nearby. So it's like 12 people chasing down a single player. Over and over again. Lynch mob. When SW:TOR tried to do this with... Ilum, I quickly grew sick of that experience and just ignored those quests.

[@silverhand9965]

@@duncanlutz3698 Yeah that's something PvP players aren't willing to acknowledge. Most of them don't care about PvP, they just want to win.

[@PeeperSnail]

"It can be an enjoyable experience to be alone while surrounded by people." This is legit how it feels like to "charge up" when you're an extrovert.

[@ds0995]

"Wrath is created by forcing players to interact with others when they dont want to" I am pretty sure LOL was made based on this sentence.

[@An_Ian]

I swear I still find salt in my laptop from my LOL days its been over 4 year since I even had it installed

[@ХристоМартунковграфЛозенски]

Sometimes the community is toxic and the game doesn't punish griefers and tryhards enough. GTA Online is a good example, even though it's not an MMO.

[@zachb8012]

Leage of Legends was created based on making DotA for babies. Small wonder it's so toxic. That's not even hyperbole, the fundamental tenant of its design is literally, "DotA, but more accessible". Which is fine, I've played a lot of both and appreciate either for what they are, both are fun. Holy shit though, the standard League pub is much more toxic than the standard DotA pub.

[@excaliburofgachagames9241]

@@ХристоМартунковграфЛозенски GTA honestly does the exact opposite. "YOU CANT DESTROY SOMEONE'S PERSONAL VEHICLE" Even tho that said vehicle was an oppressor. Seriously I had to go through ths rng of the research system to get one to counter them. I spent more money on gta than a fucking gacha game. That game is dead to me.

[@dieptrieu6564]

@@zachb8012 That's your own experience. Every single pvp only game will be super freaking toxic. Dota is no exception. I freaking learn curse words from many different countries just by playing that game.

[@tango33w]

3:44 THANK YOU!!! ~An introvert

[@JoshStrifeHayes]

You're welcome * a nerd

[@discolizard712]

i do not mind getting forced into grouping with people in dungeons/raids, but if i get forced to play PvP it's close enough for me to uninstall the game :/ forced PvP is shiet for those who DO NOT WANT to engage in PvP.....although sometimes getting forced to do dungeons/raids to progress, is really frustrating if you get put in a group that only flames and b*tch at each other the entire dungeon, or worse, kicks you before you even get to do the dungeon you need to progress, throwing you back to waiting for yet another queue pop.....

[@menarian9550]

While I do enjoy PvE I just hated that I had to do plenty of dungeon for the MSQ in FFXIV. I was playing samurai and mostly waited forever to get that specific dungeon because the game won't let me progress if I don't do that dungeon. I love that game but those forced dungeons are horrible as a dps

[@discolizard712]

@@menarian9550 ;D that's where having a max level friend to carry you through the early dungeons, comes in handy, but yeah, kinda agree, too many dungeons in main story :/

[@MsMoonDragoon]

@@menarian9550 maybe you should play tank or healer then.

[@menarian9550]

@@MsMoonDragoon I was really into samurai and still am. I didn't want to level a tank/healer I didn't want to play just to do the story^^

[@peterlopez2388]

@@menarian9550 get someone from your fc to help. A tank and or a healer will speed up the queue.

[@doshka17channel70]

Recovery of an MMO Junkie said it best. "I'm more comfortable when I'm alone, but being alone is lonely. So MMOs are a way for me to be alone but not lonely."

[@realdragon]

It's still fun to e around people but playing solo, going around fighting some miniboss, random person joins in and when we kill it we move separate ways

[@videotroll72]

@@realdragon This, organic cooperation is nice, but having to make social commitments can be exhausting, as you either deal with the problem of becoming bored because you are forced to play at a pace with others that are too slow or are too focused on one activity, or constant stress that you are taking up to much time reading quest texts while your friend is waiting around bored.

[@realdragon]

@@videotroll72 Yeah, I haven't play MMO in few months due to various reasons, if I were in guild I probably would have to log in, kill some bosses or people would complain that I'm not using the most optimal gear (at least I look good). When I'm solo I can sit and look around, go whenever I want and do whatever I want

[@yourguysheppy]

I basically treat MMOs as single player games with a chatroom attached. It's cozy

[@shizanketsuga8696]

The existence of this sin always baffles me. The more of this you have in your game the more toxic the player community is likely to be, for various reasons. If you avoid this both the PvE and the PvP side of the community are free from a _huge_ source of bile which ironically makes people who prefer one more likely to engage in the other _willingly._

[@Corgisaurus-Rex]

So glad to see someone put this into words. I'm a casual MMO player that likes to read dialog and explore every nook and cranny of an area. I enjoy playing with friends but, when they're not around, I mostly stick to myself. I still enjoy seeing other people running around, though. Guild Wars 2 is my MMO of choice because it's very solo friendly and has a lot for me to do based on my play style. Even if I don't do ALL of the content, I still feel like I get a satisfying experience with the game. I tried FF14 and it did not gel well with me. I tried playing it to hang out with a friend, but the forced dungeon/raid content really pissed me off. While the community was extremely friendly, I still hated having the story ground to a halt because I had to wait 30 or so minutes to form a group for a dungeon. Even when a group was found, I had to skip story dialog and exploration because the more experienced people were ready to breeze through the content. I enjoyed other aspects of that game, but the forced dungeons/raids made it hard for me to want to go back to it.

[@kngfstgaming]

Imma try guild wars 2 out! I’m actually grinding neverwinter rite now and a former FFonline player myself. I kno how it is when u are forced to grind dungeons with others.would definitely prefer to solo it myself if possible

[@Estirvana]

@@kngfstgaming I've been playing around a lot of the beginner areas, and a lot of stuff is solo-able, including random events. I kinda like drop-in and helping people out. Like seeing someone needing help and bam, and the adventurer comin' in hot to save their day! I've never been a fan of the subscription model, but it is nice that I can have long periods of breaks in playing GW2 and then just hop in and start back my progress.

[@mikotolinyara4214]

Rex, I'm new to FF14 and I understand your pain. The forced dungeons and Primal fights infuriate me. I'm a solo player for the most part and I enjoy working my way through the main quest and job quests. It grinds my gears to have my progress forcibly halted and have to hang around for 10-30 minutes waiting for a party. I don't mind rushing through the dungeon since its content I want over with, but I wish I had more time to enjoy the cutscenes. I don't take it out on my party though. Its not their fault. Now, don't get me wrong I don't mind group content and in the future when I'm high level and the time between levels lengthens a bit I fully intend to do exp based dungeons. But I want to choose. I want to decide that I'm going to grind exp or gear in a dungeon today and thus be fully prepared to wait the time to find a party. Having my progress forced to a screeching halt though, oooh it irritates me. Apart from that niggle though, FF14 is wonderful and I really enjoy the rest of it.

[@inkognitonoori9486]

Yeah, i was blocked out in most of my boss fights in ff14 in dungeons when i tried it simply because i dont have an adequat reaction speed (for medical reasons, thats why i also dont like pvp) and didnt play more of the game after the trial. I also play gw2 but when i started to go for legendary equipement i hated the forced interaction there (legendary armor and Accessoires are locked behind raid content, content i dont want to play, have to do fractals for the weapon collections or just grind pvp/wvw for specific items). The bad thing is, i think gw2 did a good job with seperating the game mods with ascended gear. The production of the legendaries is somewhat okay, if they would make the pvp/wvw gifts purchasable in the player market.

[@Wolkenschauer]

I'm sorry you had that experience... I'm currently on my fourth go at FFXIV after always dropping out around the fight against Titan. I'm someone who's not good at quick and precise movement in games and that fight was a bit too much for me, paired with the frustration of causing party wipes and wasting everyone's time (still, people were really patient with me, I just hated feeling like a burden). Being able to skip the fight or do it solo definitely would helped me persist. That being said... I never experienced the issues you describe. Maybe it doesn't matter for you now (GW2 is definitely also a fun game!) but in case someone else is interested in the game... Every single random party I've been assigned to has waited patiently while new players watched their cutscenes and during the finale, the game actually makes its cutscenes unskippable. If you want want to explore, maybe consider playing as a tank. The tank usually decides the route and pace of the group... Plus they have pretty short queue times (just like healers, I've never had to wait more than a few seconds as healer so far and maaaybe two minutes as a tank once). Maybe tell the party at the beginning that it's your first go and that you want to explore a little so they know you aren't lost... We have definitely done that before, just exploring paths in the dungeon that we knew were dead ends because we haven't seen them before. Reading all the notes. I even once encountered a tank who actually got lost and missed a lever so we had to backtrack and go look for it... And everyone was fine with it. It was no big deal and we still happily finished our dungeon once we found the missing lever. (A friend also suggested that you can usually go back the the starting point rather than leaving the completed dungeon and take your time exploring but I prefer doing it during the actual run in between enemy groups.)

[@arrclyde4325]

Had to stop the vid just to say this: i often read "its an mmo, you have to play with others". Nothing, i repeat, nothing in that MMO term tells you you have to play with others. Massively multiplayer Online basically means that there are many many many other players in the world with you that you CAN play with/against if you chose too. So yes there is nothing wrong with playing an MMO solo. You are spot on and i continue the vid.

[@miramalverick2767]

true... i wonder where´s people take that idea from anyway.

[@Aeririn]

it kinda does though. It says Multiplayer meaning the developers have the right to make multiplayer content given the game is designed around the core concept of that meaning things like dungeons and raids are usually a common thing in MMOs. the defintion of multiplayer btw: "Multiplayer - adjective; denoting or relating to a video game designed for or _involving_ several players"

[@scottrussell360]

@@Aeririn "designed for or involving several players" what part of that actually means they have to interact? It's a big world full of people, definition fulfilled.

[@Banzai51]

By that loose and incorrect definition, Unreal Tournament, Doom, Quake, Duke Nukem, CS:GO, Fortnite, Battlefront, etc are MMOs. They are not. MMO has always been a shortening of MMORPG. Because MMORPG is a mouthful, and we humans hate mouthfuls. It isn't an MMO just because a lot of people are playing it online. It is a specific type of game and expectations.

[@arrclyde4325]

@@Banzai51 you didn'understand what i meant. Nothinging in MMORPG states that you have to play with other people. It just states that you play in a game environment where therr is a massive ammount of players in the same gameworld with you. But nothing in the term of MMORPG forces you to have to play with them in a group.

[@YoshiTheWise]

As a therapist I've met many people who suffer from social anxiety and have found some MMOs to be great for them because they can be around other people while only interacting to their comfort level. Particularly MMOs with plenty of non combat options.

[@Sazandora123]

In World of Warcraft there's a system that groups up random players for random dungeons that they get teleported into, or in the case of raids you know where you're going but there'll be a whole lot more people playing with you (5 for dungeons, 25 for raids). I'm a heavy introvert with bad social anxiety and I LOVE this system. Why? Because because of the way it works, I can queue up, get sent to a random dungeon/raid, do my job and teleport out... without having to say a single word. And sometimes I like to converse with the party -- but only if someone else initiates it, otherwise I stay silent and just do my thing, I mostly play damage dealer but sometimes I like to play healer, too. And I know this'll invite people to scream at me for being part of the cancer killing the genre, but I don't care. WoW offers me so much freedom to do whatever I want, that no single player game I know can compete with it. No other game offers the same kind of gameplay that my favorite class in WoW (Feral druid) has.

[@jubalbiggs4559]

In the early days of the internet, studies were done about different kinds of social networks and interactions and it was discovered that people will use an avatar based social network differently than a classic social network that had their own name and face attached. The same people, given an avatar based system would be more likely to reach out to strangers and make new friends, whereas in a classic social media network, they tended to stick to people they already knew. I think it's a safety/psychology thing. We are smart, tool using monkeys and we realize pretty fast that an avatar can be a canary that we can send down a shaft that we're not sure of without risk. For people who have suffered from past human interactions, it can be very helpful.

[@Xylarxcode]

I remember for a time in WoW retail (and maybe this is still ongoing), there were seasonal achievements that required you to do a specific set of events made around the theme of that season. One of those events is Children's week, an event where you take an orphan and show them around various parts of the world, take them out for ice cream, buy them a toy, etc. Most of these are PvE interactions, with one exception. One of the achievements wants you to take your orphan into battlegrounds (pvp zones) to perform certain actions. And this particular achievement was hated by many. Not only did it force a PvE player into PvP where they had to fight an enemy faction they had no interest in fighting, it also required them to perform a certain action in the pvp area which their own teammates are also competing for, because it's one of the pvp objectives they have to complete, turning them against their own team in a way. It was truly dreadful for most involved. PvP players didn't want to have PvE players running around mucking up their battle zones, where they didn't know what to do and PvE players didn't want to be there to run around cluelessly, but the game forced them to, if they wanted that achievement. You could ofcourse just skip that particular achievement and not do it, but the real cruelty of that was that this particular achievement was part of a large chain of achievements which gave you a mount if you did all them all over the course of a year, making the mount fairly coveted (or at least, it was at the time when I was still playing). Every other achievement in this series was a PvE event, except for this one. A standout example of forcing PvE players to do something that angers both them and their PvP counterpart players, incurring anger on both sides for no good reason. I. Hated. This. Achievement.

[@josynaemikohler6572]

It was worse. Because it was the only 310% mount you were able to get outside of Arena Top 0.5% or Glory of the Raider achievements... So EVERYONE wanted it, since it gave you an advantage over other mounts, which had only a speed of 280% flying speed. The bright side was though, because everybody wanting it, there were a lot of players, cross faction, cooperating, to do the BG achievement tasks instead of playing the pvp objective. But after the first year, when around 95% of players had it... it just got stupid.

[@DarkSpyro707]

"In this event, you take an orphan to go out on adventures, buy them ice cream, and toys!" Awwwwwwwwwwww "In the final part, you must **TAKE THEM TO A BATTLEGROUND**." ...We're just gonna skim over that one huh.

[@Kalyahna]

I think Blizzard has only very recently - finally - removed that piece of the achievement.

[@boba3597]

Omg I thought I was weird. I like mmos but I never really joined guilds or adventure with others. I might occasionally hang with a friend but I liked questing and farming solo or doing dungeons at my own pace or the randoms pace.

[@kngfstgaming]

Same here! I’m not trying to b rude I jus enjoy the solo challenge and grinding at my own pace. Don’t like feeling like I have to move when someone else moves

[@Chuustix]

I vaguely remember playing an mmo (don't remember the name) which I really enjoyed, played it for hours till i got to a spot where I had to run through a pvp zone to get to the next story objective. Hilariously, people were spawncamping new players killing them instantly, over and over, because that's what they found fun. I never picked that game up after that happened to me :/

[@michellepartridge8558]

I'm a dialogue reader so often I ended waiting and then am forced to race through and miss everything I wanted to experience anyway.

[@BlueSparxLPs]

THIS. I hate when dungeons have a lot of dialogue now, and it's not anything to do with their design. It's because other players speed through them and I don't get to experience the story as intended. If I want to hang back and enjoy dialogue, I end up advancing to empty rooms because I got left behind.

[@thegreatandmightyseff7214]

Yeah if you want dialogue in the game, have it be over the characters head and dont make it pause the game completely

[@excaliburofgachagames9241]

Neverwinter and ESO dungeons in a nutshell "Guess I'll miss the story"

[@BlueSparxLPs]

@@thegreatandmightyseff7214 I think I'd actually prefer to have it pause the game completely, honestly. That way people can't rush ahead. I like the way Wizard101 and Toontown do some dungeons. In Wizard101, the dungeons that have the feature put up a 5ish minute timer (adjusted depending on length of the scene) to get through all the dialogue. If every player finishes getting through the dialogue before the time runs out, it advances for everyone. While at least one person is still listening to dialogue, no one else can move. Sadly most dungeons don't do this, though. Toontown does the same thing for every dungeon, but without the timer, so someone could feasibly stall the dungeon until they disconnect. (which is definitely worse, but still a step forward).

[@Estirvana]

Ha, this is an awesome video. For whatever reason, I just give up wanting to PvP and just roll over and get it over with. It actually just kills the vibe for me if I notice an item or certain progression locked behind PVP. I don't care how well a game implements PVP, I don't like competing against others. If am PVEing, am like a different person that is competitive and helping raise up my teammates. That to me is my MMO fun and happy memories. I praise whenever I see a quest or something that offers both PVP and PVE choices!

[@vantao9408]

It's amazing how WoW these days hits almost every sin. They've really lost their way.

[@ZombieFighter95]

"these days" it hits almost every sin since at least Wrath, sorry.

[@zibix4562]

yep. now to be fair, every single game 100% hits at least 1 or 2 sins, but can still be good..

[@MrOfTheSea]

WoW created a lot of these sins, or at the very least made them popular enough that later games copied their designs

[@michaelmorrison5280]

WoW has had huge parts of the game locked behind grouping as well as forced pve/pvp since the game originally launched. Yet despite this, WoW still became the most-played, most successful MMORPG in the world. Funnily enough, WoW only stopped growing and started dying AFTER they made the game more accessible to the toxic entitled players who demand the opportunity to avoid certain aspects of the game. Maybe Josh Strife Hayes doesn't actually know what he's talking about and you're only agreeing with him because he's saying the things you want to hear.

[@darkfire8008]

@@michaelmorrison5280 More so they stopped growing after they tried catering more to the more elite of players. WotLK was objectively the most accessible expansion they released, especially near the end when they added LFD. Raids were a ton easier than their TBC counterparts, the first step to streamlining of stats by combining healing and spell damage into just spellpower and making the only healing specific gear being mp5. Then there's the gear tokens every tier on top of no longer having to grind keys or reputation to get into heroic dungeons. Not to mention after a significant gold cost you literally have a vendor and repair at your beck and call. Heirlooms making leveling alts faster since you can enchant them and trade between characters on a whim, armor that is better than anything you could find at any given level you were at until max.

[@IroneaterFinya]

FFXIV tried to remedy this in Shadowbringers with the introduction of Trusts. Basically you still have to do Group Content but instead of People you get Bots to fill the roles. The only way to expand this is to retroactively introduce this to older content including Trials and Raids.

[@menarian9550]

Yep that was my problem with FFXIV until shadowbringers. It took ages to find that specific dungeon the MSQ desperately wanted me to do. Shadowbringers was really pleasant to play through and was the first time I was ever interested in the story of an MMO so props to FFXIV for changing my mind.

[@MsMoonDragoon]

problem with that is I hate the scions more than I hate other players.

[@NecroAsphyxia]

@@menarian9550 that is (ideally) what the Novice Network is useful for. I have run many many many Sprouts through dungeons either synced (I can go as a SCH and get fast queues) or unsynced ( Dark Knight rush ho!)

[@menarian9550]

@@NecroAsphyxia Never really thought of that possibility :P

[@yaboi2500]

Raids should never have Trusts, but dungeons should absolutely have them. I’m not too sure about trials, though. The fact that you have to restart anytime you die would probably make trials more frustrating than necessary.

[@SilverKnight16]

Good video, but let's be real--PVP players are more than happy to gank unwilling participants. Making other players rage is precisely why they enjoy PVP.

[@BigPuddin]

Well, not all of us. Quite a few unfortunately, but some of us are legitimately interested in challenging ourselves against an intelligent opponent. An unthinking, reactive, AI-controlled bot doesn't give you the same thrill as an intelligent, creative human opponent, so PVP fills that role in its stead. I don't PVP to murder people who stand no chance. That's pathetic and boring. I want to test myself against the most dangerous opponent: an actual person. It's just that there are a ton of pathetic sweatlords out there looking for the path of least resistance in order to get easy kills that validate their empty fucking lives and/or get a modicum of schadenfreude from ruining other players' fun discoloring perceptions of active PVP types. It's the same reason a lot of us love fighting games and MP shooters. It's good old fashioned, fair and balanced competition. It's just when you toss all that fairness and willful participation out the window that PVP becomes a problem. The people you're describing aren't really after the point of PVP. They don't want a challenge. They're pussies who will happily stomp on those weaker and unprepared but will whine when the same is done to them.

[@aspektx]

The majority of open world pvp'rs that I have met or come across took an almost cruel glee in taking down other players. One reason I know this is this same delight is present even when the encounter is completely stacked in their favor. With all the trash talk about excelling at pvp in the end this type of pvp'r can never know how good they actually are versus other players.

[@immortalfrieza]

@@BigPuddin People who are actually interested in challenge PvP in MMO games which are skill based because you can't be certain you're going to win in those games. PvP in MMOs that are numbers based is going to be filled to the brim with PvPers ganking everyone and everything that isn't close to their level and where PvPers who actually want a challenge are the exception rather than the rule.

[@nevisysbryd7450]

@@BigPuddin This was me back when I did Dark Souls invasions. I usually returned whatever courtesy the hosts (or invaders, when I was the host) gave me; if they did not attack, half the time I would end up derping around with them, forming impromptu fight clubs, or the like. If they were hostile, I became the hunter. If they were a hyperaggressive rude tryhard, ganker, or hacker, I no longer held back on things like glitches or exploits (eg weaponswapping could provide stun-immunity in DS1) that I usually avoided using. More than one person called me 'the friendliest Darkwraith they ever met.' To the contrary, I experienced _far_ more toxic hosts than I did invaders... I eventually gave up on red summon signs over orbs (voluntary invasions versus forced invasions) because the summon signs had such a high rate of ganksquads waiting to stunlock me to death as I loaded in.

[@PyroMancer2k]

I think you left some things out on the PvP vs PvE. As you mentioned PvE is about mastery but the thing about PvP is there are plenty of times where you can do everything right and still lose so their is no possibility of Mastery. This I find is far more common than reflex & skill combos. Since PvP often focus on being the best and optimizing their odds they often punch down. They will be fully geared for their level if not already maxed and will go to areas where there are easy pickings. Often times hunting in a pack against equal or lower level players so the 1-2 PvE players get jumped by like 3-5 PvP prowling the area. The challenge of PvP sounds more like those interested in the Arena matches and competition scene that many games offer. But when it comes to open world PvP more often than not it's large group vs small group and rarely does the small group win or even stand a chance due to shear math of how system scale power and levels. In large battles for PvP it's so hecktic that unlike PvE raids where you can coordinate to manage aggro there is little hope of this in PvP. It's basically everyone throwing abilities across the field at each other until one side make to many mistakes and their front line crumbles as they have a rout where people start fleeing. The other thing I think you left out was that some PvP players do enjoy have PvE players forced into areas with them as they like bullying the weak. And where as the above I mentioned PvP going after weaker targets that was more of a couple levels lower or such. But some will actively go back to low level zones so you end up with level 60 players killing level 30 players in PvP because they find it fun and amusing ruining other people's fun. And this example is sort of the extreme but it highlights how unlike PvE content which is balance so the player has a chance of victory if they master the system. In my experience over the years and chatting with others I find more often than not it's this power disparity which is a major factor in people not liking open PvP as it's like being in a zone fighting monsters and then some random encounter comes by way above you level and just kills you through no fault of your own with no real counter.

[@idiom2805]

I wondered why there was a pic of runescape for the thumbnail, and then I read the rest of the title, and it all makes sense now. Fucking wild slayer tasks are the epitome of "Fuck your fun"

[@NagaTales]

I don't mind when the game makes no pretense of choice in the matter. If the game pushes you into a dungeon, for example, as part of the story early on and *continues* to consistently, and *not randomly*, reinforce the fact that dungeons are mandatory parts of the game, then I do not count it a sin, because it doesn't pretend to let you opt out. It has established expectations and leaves it to you to decide if you're fine with it and enjoy it, or at least tolerate it in good faith, or to reject it and play some other game more suited to you. It's when there's an *illusion* of choice in the matter that I would invoke the Sin of Wrath on the developers. Destiny 2, at least when I was playing it, was guilty of this, as many legendary items, in order to get them or upgrade them, required you to do a mix of various modes of PvE and PvP content. And as these are often the best weapons or armor in the game, you had to groan and do the stuff you didn't like, even if up to that point you'd only been doing one or the other exclusively. If there's never a choice to be made, like say in Black Desert Online where everyone is PvP flagged past a certain level, or FFXIV where dungeons are mandatory from the very start, then it's a matter of deciding if that's worth it for the rest of the game. Not all games are for everyone, even within the same genre, and that holds true just as much for MMOs as it does for Shooters and Sports Games. It's when you experience the bulk of the game with the expectation of being able to completely avoid one or the other, and then are forced or 'tricked' into doing the opposite of your preferred choice, that I feel the Sin of Wrath is most applicable.

[@ladrok97]

Yeah. This wraith is easy to skip. Just establish "this game is for pvp"/"this game is for pve". Then add "this content is hardcore for doing it solo, but you can/easy to do solo/ only doable in group"

[@pandemonium2536]

While that is fair to an extent what if someone wants to play because they really enjoy the combat or lore or whatever, there's no downside to having pvp as a toggle or having any dungeon allowed for people to attempt solo so it's entirely reasonable to to be mad or "wrathful" when those mechanics are just not put in and instead force "Play with a group or fuck off" or "Wanna do this quest? Good luck, you have to walk through the meta pvp scum zone to get there"

[@queerlibtardhippie9357]

Completely agree

[@antonsimmons8519]

I've gotten shit for it many times, but my position remains the same: compulsory pvp is an automatic dealbreaker for me. You(as in, anyone who isn't me) don't get to attack me without my permission. That's not what I'm playing for.

[@jemmascott5559]

It’s just unneeded stress and hassle when you’re trying to get stuff done

[@esprit101]

Yeah, when WoW classic came out, my friend group demanded to go on a PVP-server. The group broke up after a week, I was stranded on the realm and when world PVP came out, I either steamrolled Alliance with my new guild or got ganked while farming shit for a raid. The first was boring and made me feel like a dick and the latter was just plain annoying and disrupted my limited playtime to the point that I quit the game a month later. BTW, Diablo 4 will also include open PVP areas and judging from some interviews they might also be mandatory for PVE players.

[@antonsimmons8519]

@@esprit101 Well, if that's the case, I will not be playing 4 for literally even an entire second.

[@peterlopez2388]

@@esprit101 I wanted to get it too. Guess I’m gonna have to pass on that

[@qeloqoo]

Tell that to thug in dark alley. MMORPGs are virtual worlds, not everything is there to indulge you.

[@undraxis]

Yup, the 2 things i hate the most about MMOs, Forced Grouping and PVP. Every mmo i try has to not have either of those for me to invest anything more than a passing thought.

[@JoshStrifeHayes]

Oh you'll like this video then.

[@sitheclimber]

What is even worse than the skyshards in ESO is the forced pvp if you want to tank/heal in any way...

[@jonathanwesley5189]

@@sitheclimber bro tanks and healers are super important in eso pvp

[@Lexipumpkin783]

@@JoshStrifeHayes if a mmo doesnt have pvp than it isn't worth my time

[@yaboi2500]

@@Lexipumpkin783 If you play MMOs for PvP, you’re playing them for all the wrong reasons. Go play some Quake or Unreal Tournament, bud.

[@markup6394]

"Enforced PvP" - ooooooh yes >.< The reason I kept hating WoW for more than 10 years! Yes, WoW, yes, I'm looking at YOU! I agree, I'm more of a single player myself. In WoW want to run around off the beaten path, losely doing quest stuff and above all pick flowers or gather some ore. Or if I feel like it, do some fishing! I like having other players around me doing their business, and I enjoy this "company from a distance". I don't mind dungeoning with a group, sometimes I have talked for hours with someone of that group long after the dungeon. Same with FF14: I like going in solo because I can decide when to stop, where to go, and what to do. In a group you commit your time to others for a common goal, and you align your pace accordingly. I mean, of course you do because in a group you are in a group and not solo so as long as your are in that group you do things together, and everyone has to pull their weight (which is why I hate people afk'ing in MSQ dungeons or in Warfronts in WoW!). Anyway, you commit yourself to a certain playstyle which suits you best, either PvP, PvE, groups, solo or a wild variaty mix of all of that (and probably others). I'm not into PvP, I don't like the thought of "winning" or "competition", but I know that other people live for that content and thats perfectly fine, we all do our own thing. But please don't force any of us doing something else just because game designers say "if we make them do it they'll gonna love it!". No, no we wont.

[@frostdracohardstyle]

WoW has had warmode for some years now. Your argument is invalid. You do not have to pvp in wow if you dont want to anymore.

[@markup6394]

@@frostdracohardstyle Ah right, yes. I totally forgot about that ^^° Though I don't know does Warmode affect PvP-Servers...? And I think you can still get PvP flagged when attacked by an enemy NPC... But yes, WM is a thing now :) Needless to say, I had it turned off all the time :D

[@priorityecko4989]

Why would you roll on a PvP server if you don't like PvP?

[@markup6394]

@@priorityecko4989 I wasnt talking about PvP servers - and I never played on them in the 1st place... I was talking about that some games push some elements (like PvP) right up your nose and that players (in this case me) dont like that. I avoid PvP like the plague... and even I cant get fully away with it.

[@antonsimmons8519]

Yes, exactly this. Devs tend to have this utterly idiotic idea that player just THINK we don't like x-thing, when in fact we KNOW we don't like it. So delusional devs try to force x-thing upon the players who do not want it, and the player dumps the game, moving on to other games whose devs didn't try to shove some unfun mode down the throats of the players.

[@nat040496]

I ADORE PvP in shooters like Battlefield. The issue is MMOs nearly always have garbage, unbalanced PvP

[@zeehero7280]

If its not designed for a full pvp focus from the ground up, or if it's not made for a more casual pvp experience, it won't have good pvp.

[@DoomsdayR3sistance]

PvP in shooters is generally more fun than MMOs where your class/build is probably going to be wrong if you aren't directly building your character for PVP. Personally I am not a fan of twitch shooters as they are very prone to ping and hardware affecting your kill rate just as much as skill. Which is likely why my most played FPS was TF2, where twitch reactions was not the end all and be all.

[@zeehero7280]

@@DoomsdayR3sistance That depends on the mmo and class design and also on whether pvp is a seperate system in it. FFXIV never focused on pvp (wisely) yet has some really fun pvp modes for casual fun which boasts a level of class balance 99% of other mmos do not have in pvp.

[@DoomsdayR3sistance]

@@zeehero7280 well that is comparing specific against general, in general what I said is still true even if in specific cases it is not.

[@zeehero7280]

@@DoomsdayR3sistance Yeah in general pvp in mmos can only work if its designed from the ground up as a main pvp focus and even then it usually doesn't work well.

[@resengan123]

i grew to hate pvp because my first mmo was runescape. nothing more fun than getting attacked while in the middle of gathering mats. dishonorable mention goes to age of wushu. which was interesting until you realized it was shamelessly pay to win. then there was pvp and getting cheesed by dagger throwers loved gw2 pvp. primarily because it was its own game mode and you knew what you were getting into. i kinda miss the zerging of bases and large army fights

[@taunttitan1714]

"When you force players to interact with others when they don't want to" This describes me when it comes to doing dungeons, raids(which I don't do unless I can solo) or PVP which I never do

[@millenium1109]

I'm very much a PvE player, and nothing grinds my gears more than getting ambushed by people out looking to ruin other people's fun just because they can. The open world PvP is one of the things I hated most about WoW. If I'm going through the story or leveling up skills or alternate characters, I do *not* appreciate getting jumped my a maxed out character specialized in assassinating other players. The fact that a max level player can sneak into lower level areas and one-shot new players/characters is something that I just don't think should be allowed.

[@froglifes6829]

Atleast its realistic. You never know when you will be jumped and robbed irl

[@crowqueenamps]

@@froglifes6829 But it's a video game. Fun should come before realism. I mean, in the same universe you're shooting fireballs and learning game controls. It isn't fun when someone high rank comes over and bops you while you're picking a flower for a quest.

[@froglifes6829]

@@crowqueenamps i was just listing a positive to the ops negative view. youre Here typing all this stuff that guess what? Nobody cares

[@crowqueenamps]

@@froglifes6829 You did care enough to type back. :-)

[@ohsarcasm]

damn bro I couldn’t pull up a reply more pathetic then “waaa but but,, i pretend i don’t care so it means no one does,,, sob i speak for everyone “ if i tried.

[@grizzgo]

I either want to play an MMO alone or with my wife! Stranger danger lol

[@JoshStrifeHayes]

Genuinely, for 2 player rpg, have you played 'divinity: original sin 2'

[@grizzgo]

@@JoshStrifeHayes no, will look into that. thanks!

[@Nawrly17]

Try Balder's Gate 3, it's not fully complete yet but similar to Divinity Original Sin 2.

[@miavelvet]

@@Nawrly17 i would not recommend baldurs gate 3 until it leaves Early access. I mean you can just lose all your progress coz devs decided to add big patch

[@cleotasberkley9048]

Forced PvP is my biggest reason for never wanting to touch Sea of Thieves again. I enjoy the PvE aspect of the game, and with the expansions and patches it received a lot of content that I was interested in playing, but I've never been very good at PvP. Whenever I ran into other players I either had to convince them to be friendly or, 80% of the time they simply killed me and sunk my ship, tanking 30-60 minutes of progress and forcing me to start over from scratch. Often I was outnumbered because the random matchmaking was completely borked, so when I tried to join crews they never spoke english or wanted to do anything productive. (There were rare exceptions, and by god it was the most fun I can recall having in an online game, but they were the exception.) Once I tried to complete a voyage (quest) with fixed locations and had to deal with a group of players who would patrol the islands from the voyage specifically to sink any player that tried to complete it. I desperately wanted an offline mode or an option for a private world, but to my knowledge none has ever been added, so as much as I enjoy many aspects of the game's design, I can never play it. My blood pressure spiked, and I can't recall ever getting quite so angry as I was getting sunk over and over again despite minding my own business and trying my best to avoid player interactions. If the game ever gets a PvE setting or a private mode, I'll be all over that. (In fact I'll go check right after I post this comment just to see if there really is none.) For now, this game is the epitome of the Wrath aspect of MMO design in my experience.

[@cleotasberkley9048]

According to Reddit not only is solo or private play not a thing, it would be bad for the game environment because people would stop playing the PvP and thus deprive the PvP players of content. To which I reply "The people who don't want to engage in PvP are already not playing the game or are frustrated with their gameplay experience and on the verge of quitting." It's just favoring one kind of player over another, and I don't believe Sea of Thieves is a game that requires PvP as a fundamental aspect of its design. That might have been the thing the developers were thinking of when they created the game, but none of my personal progression (what little there is in Sea of Thieves) is tied to PvP interactions, I can get just as much done winning PvP encounters as I can avoiding them altogether. Whether I do or don't encounter enemy players makes no impact on my voyages or objectives other than being an occasional, unpredictable, and unreliable obstacle to them. You're not even given much incentive to attack other players outside of the treasure you can steal from them, which again is dependent on the target, not every player has treasure for you to steal. There is a PvP arena, but rewards are tied only to that arena event and not to player interactions in the overworld, plus you can opt into that experiece, so even if Sea of Thieves suddenly became a PvE game overnight, that arena would still be a healthy option. I don't know what the best answer is, but acting as though removing PvP would utterly gut the game and undermine its design is foolish.

[@chris.awilliams7138]

Hmm, I like your analysis, but I think you overlooked the idea of winnability. In a PVP setting, one player wins, one loses, only 50% of participants in any event can 'win' and there is the fear that the PVP area will be patrolled by high-level-expert-players killing any casual player they find, meaning there is the perception at least, if not the reality, of a system in which most people lose all the time. This is certainly why I never went into the Northern parts of Runescape. I don't want to partake in PVP until I have decent chance of winning (comparable level to opponent, and a decent understanding of the game [not necessarily mastery]). If I can lose somehting tangeable from PVP (equiipment say, not just my ranking in some league), then f*** it, I want no part of it at all. Something else you skited around but never addressed is part of the asymmetry between a player and their environment, compared to a player vesus player. The environment may inlude a boss with more health/attack etc than you could ever have, or some ability that is unavailable to players, you must make a stratagey to compensate for your weakness. Playing against a being of comparable intelligence to you with more health/attack and better abilites would be a pointless slaughter for you, so PVE is the only way to give this experience. I think you got the idea of ther symetry of PVP in their, but not by that name. Both players have the same toolkit, so you have to use those tools to break themselves.

[@VacuousCat]

I remember I played aion and a high level enemy faction player chased me down over half of the map into a town. They tanked the NPC's attack and killed me. It sucks

[@gonzoshots4691]

Josh you've really elevated your vocal delivery to top tier levels, you have one of the easiest and most informative narrations to follow with excellent accents of personality. Truly remarkable, keep it up!

[@traviswreynolds]

Ahh the shield of Arrav. I beat that quest because someone put the part if the shield I needed in the general store. I got so lucky

[@KimFareseed]

Beat it, because I had another person in the same I could dictate what faction to join, so we actually could get it done. Was about 13 back then, with little interest in learning english.

[@supersolenoid]

When I watch/listen/read such factual and punctual analysis of the issues in game design, I'm amazed by the fact that game designers keep making the same mistakes over and over. Year after year. There's so much constructive feedback in this series to fix at least half a dozen best selling MMOs...

[@JoshStrifeHayes]

Really glad youre enjoying the series dude :)

[@yanentine]

Always been a PvE, solo player in MMOs, most I'll interact with people in MMOs is helping a newbie, letting them know that they can send me a message if they need more help, before quietly slipping away. If I want to fight against other people (or more likely be the team healer - support class ftw!) then I'll play Paladins. I use MMOs to zone out and listen to podcasts while taming pets, and that's all I want.

[@crazjtk]

As something of a follow-up, Final Fantasy XIV has a system in it now called "Duty Support" which allows you to run the story-required dungeons by replacing the other players in a normal dungeon party with NPC fighters instead. It was first added in Shadowbringers, so the story dungeons in every expansion since have had it. The developers are also revising old dungeons and adding them to the system as well. As of writing, every story dungeon in the base game and most story dungeons in Heavensward can now be run as a solo player with NPC teammates. It won't allow you to run every bit of content without other players, but the required co-op will be significantly reduced, and the NPC teammates are actually competent enough that the player can learn how to do a fight by watching them. (The Duty Support NPCs don't "cheat" and ignore certain parts of the fight) The game also synchronizes the players level, and thus their stats and abilities, when they're higher than the dungeon's, so a max-level player's ability to effortlessly breeze through low-level dungeons and leave the beginners behind is at least somewhat reduced. There is a general culture of helpfulness in the FFXIV community, so salty speed-running teammates are rarer, and are usually the target of more ire than a timid novice.

[@ThePaulper]

This pretty much sums up my main problem with getting into MMOs, I like games like FF14, but after every single player quest or so, there’s always a dungeon right behind it. The main bosses are locked behind dungeons as well, so it doesn’t feel nearly as important or special when the boss is either melted instantly or that you have to always rely on others for every major victory in a story that was meant to be specific to you. I liked Destiny for giving me the option to do so, and while it has its weapons locked behind raids, the strikes are definitely more than bearable for me. Dungeons, however, I constantly need to watch videos for, be prepared and then finally be able to play the desired content. It’s fun every now and again, but I dont want to be FORCED to do it, especially with a large crowd of 24 people! I didn’t even have time to process what was going on, and the people I was with weren’t very intent on helping. This was also after I had watched several guides. It’s hard to get into MMOs when a whole lot of them do this. Not to mention Cyrodiil. I absolutely hated finally arriving at the place I needed to be to progress the story after barely fighting through a lot of ads only to be killed by Lance Mcmagicspam immediately sending me back to spawn with a lance and hard to counter magical abilities. I honestly think PvP players enjoy the feeling of crushing those they perceive to be weaker than them just because they wanted to enjoy PvE content.

[@LikaLaruku]

This is exactly why I have always avoided end game content in MMOs & made new alts, only going back to the old toons when expansions came out & the end game areas were abandoned.

[@kelnhide]

I don't mind forced group content. But forced PVP really grinds my gear.

[@madsoulzz2087]

I agree with this comment, if I want to do pvp I'll do pvp otherwise don't force me to do it otherwise I'll drop the game faster then I can dropkick a baby XD

[@excaliburofgachagames9241]

Same. Though if you are gonna have forced group content, have a decent group finder.

[@madsoulzz2087]

Not even gonna lie some games I play I join a lobby then wait for 2 hours only to get a error when the match tries to start. Its not my internet I've upgraded recently so its the games fault the game doesn't work

[@LikaLaruku]

Forced PvP is my #1 biggest deal-breaker for a game.

[@Lampaluile]

@@LikaLaruku puss

[@chrisg8989]

3:30 I've never seen a better description of an introvert. This is also exsactly how I feel when I want to play an MMO most of the time. Solo games are great but it can definitely feel lonely after awhile.

[@stuarmanha]

It is so strange how this sounds like everything I experienced in XXIV - Realm reborn in retrospective, while loving the game/story at the time.

[@AlgaeNymph]

One reason I might want to play a MMORPG solo is because there _isn't_ a single-player game with the setting I'm interested in, so I have to take what I can get.

[@Briansgate]

Wanna run Solo in an MMORPG? play Star Wars: The Old Republic! Greatest single player mmo ever.

[@Br1ttany1992]

Yes! I just finally hit level cap in that game and had a great time leveling up my Sith Warrior.

[@nplt8263]

SWTOR is a singleplayer game trying its best to look like a mmo but failing at it badly, and I love it because of it

[@foxhound6364]

I do love the game, but I hate that grouping is almost mandatory in some of the group dungeons, and nobody wants to watch the cutscenes or play the actual game during those. They get pissed if you don't already know the routes through to avoid enemies and don't skip all of the cutscenes and dialogue.

[@Briansgate]

@@foxhound6364 Thats most mmos now.

[@ffsake1361]

Yes hence why it is my favorite MMO.

[@AcmeWingbaby]

I’ve never understood the appeal of WoW style pvp games. Early in the expansion certain classes are OP to the point of being unkillable by the literal entire opposing team (BC resto druid, WoD disc priest). Late into the expansion it’s determined by gear score, with players having literally double, or even triple health and damage. Even vanilla, had 10-19 “twinking” which was the same.

[@aspektx]

IMO that power gap between classes is intentional as a marketing ploy. Players see the OP class and want be almost instantly OP. So they buy the expansion to gain access to that new class.

[@mklpa123]

Spot on. Devs should see this video and get it through their thick skulls that a lot of players don't want to pvp or pve or have to wait in queue for 3 hours (ff14) to progress the story. Trying to force pvp on pve players and vise versa will not make people engage with a new system and extend the play time, they will quit. Because I'm not going to force myself to play through a game mode I don't like for hours or even days, I'll just quit and go play something else. Just what happened with wow in BFA and essence. That being said, you should have to group up in order to get the best of the best equipment, cosmetics etc.

[@yaboi2500]

Maybe don’t be a filthy DPS player if you don’t like the queue times.

[@mklpa123]

Can't tell if you are trolling you're actually trying to say that this is a good system... Gonna go with trolling due to the name

[@yaboi2500]

@@mklpa123 Nope, I’m serious. Stop playing one role.

[@mklpa123]

@@yaboi2500 how about I play whatever the fuck I want and the devs don't make bad design choices making me wait an arbitrary amount of time for no reason?

[@kingvonderwelt5090]

Guildwars 2 actually handles that problem exceptionally well with pvp players never having to do any of the pve content or vice versa

[@Fjesing]

Gift of Battle enters chat.

[@AskForDoodles]

@@Fjesing *WvW ptsd flashbacks* Legendary crafting... Legendary crafting is hell.

[@Gringo7213]

@@Fjesing Gift of battle is the only one, and the community tends to be pretty good at not attacking clearly pve players who are doing dailies alone. Since there are pve dailies in the pvp zone, it makes it more reasonable. Funny thing, for a daily I was trying to do one of the creature slayer ones, and up comes a group of those on one of the other teams. We just sat there and chatted until it spawned, they let me hit it a bunch, and then I stepped back and they killed it. We all got cred and went on our merry way.

[@BoisegangGaming]

I have some absolutely hilarious memories of running flashpoints (dungeons) in swtor for the first time and there would be players spamming "spacebar" in chat (to skip the dialogue).

[@optank4000]

That's why I'm so happy they have story mode flashpoints. It allows me to take my time and enjoy the story fully. I wish more MMOs would come out with story mode for people.

[@ThePotatoWitch]

You talking about playing MMOs solo reminded me that when I was younger, I very much used to want to make an MMO-style single-player game, with all the cool deep lore an MMO can have but also the option to just dungeon-crawl or run quests, expansions, the whole shebang, because I always thought I was weird for being really interested in a lot of MMOs but with 0 desire to actually interact with other people. I wanted that gameplay style, but just for one player. It's actually kind of gratifying to know that loads of other people think the same way.

[@petereng7497]

The Northern Wilds. I remember traveling there in search of Prayer experience. Nothing angered PVP players like a guy with a dagger and armor, burying bones. They won the fight, but I never dropped any loot.

[@KONONEKODA]

me the BDO casual player who enjoy whacking mob get instant PVP by Shrek like "WhAt ArE yOu DoInG iN mY sWaMp"

[@TheZenytram]

if that happened it's fucking hilarious and awesome.

[@SquidmanMalachar]

@@TheZenytram Generally it's when a stronger player shows up, possibly with a friend, kills you, and goes 'my spot' You either manage to kill him, and a constant battle possibly ensues for it, or you go find a different, likely worse for you, spot.

[@adtrlthegamer7449]

My one gripe for PvP is that it usually leads to the other player freely looting all your stuff so you go from high, at least high gear, to nothing cause someone ended up being higher than you and beating you to pulp just to take your items.

[@SaintNyx]

That's the best part.

[@undraxis]

@@SaintNyx For the winner maybe, but the other player is more often than not becomes frustrated then quits the game. And thats how you close down pvp mmos.

[@SaintNyx]

@@undraxis there are people who don't like certain types of games. Not sure why this is the only genre that attracts people who feel entitled to enjoy the game. For every player who leaves, there will be another player who enjoys the challenge. Some people quit Sekiro because it's hard, but the reason is has a playerbase at all is BECAUSE it's hard.

[@undraxis]

@@SaintNyx I love those Bloodborne style games. But what eases the deaths and loss in that game is that I dont pay a sub for it. But the biggest thing is that it is balanced to be done by a single player, the possibility is there if not the ability. So a game over screen there isnt as painful because you know you can do it at some point. In mmos its a different story, unbalanced numbers, class abilities, or even connectivity is enough to get you at a disadvantage and affects your ability to win or complete an objective.

[@SaintNyx]

@@undraxis the opportunity that MMOs have is one to allow large numbers of players to work together or against each other. It's the same appeal as a game like PUBG or League of Legends, but on a much larger scale with much more intricate gameplay. Rust is a good example of a playerbase that enjoys a challenge and is not deterred by the unbalanced nature of fighting stronger players.

[@studiesinflux1304]

After giving this some thought, I think you should have opened with the concept of 8:05 instead (lack of choice). The root cause seems to be the fact that the game design is forcing a player to do something they don't want out of the experience at that point in time. Forced PvE, solo, group, PvP, etc are actually spacial cases of the general issue of forcing a single play style to progress. This hits especially hard in MMORPGs which put so much emphasis on player choice (e.g. your character's eyebrow colour), so players hate a spot in the game where they have NO choice. * I want to advance the story to learn more lore, so don't gate the next cutscene behind a multiplayer dungeon * I want to gank someone in PvP today, so don't force me to do a co-op boss battle to get a better movement ability * I want to smash PvE bosses in the face, so don't gate part of the kit I want behind a PvP match * I want to do some group content (PvP or PvE), so don't give me a solo only boss fight quest * I want to do [something that is core to the game], so don't gate it behind a silly mini-game (although I've seen this one more in single player than multiplayer games) To summarize, since the MMORPG is a theme park or sandbox, similar achievements should be attainable in different means. For example, if you want that special gear, allow it to be won through PvP or built with the crafting system with special PvE boss parts. (To differentiate the two, just make the gear cosmetically different.)

[@TheMrFishnDucks]

Great video. This series is fantastic. Keep up the good work.

[@jj48]

I recall doing some of the group Flashpoints on Star Wars: Old Republic, and getting burned by the random pairings. I'm one of the ones who likes to read everything and doesn't have an efficient combat setup, and I'd often be paired with people telling me to skip or yelling at me for using the wrong skills in the wrong order. I could get where they're coming from, but I do wish they could get paired with other efficiency-minded folk and I could get paired with more lore-minded folk.

[@ColtFotiFive]

I clicked on the video because I was there for the falador massacre and recognized Duriel321 immediately on the thumbnail. Haven't watched the video yet, but that's a blast from the past. Cheers.

[@minty9245]

“Forced pvp” my main reason for not playing Albion lmao

[@Br1ttany1992]

Same!

[@draxx85]

yeah but that game is pretty much a pure pvp game. The PVE is honestly just filler for that game

[@willprotector]

The game is advertised and made just for PVP. Go back to the video on feature glut--it would not make sense for Albion Online to add meaningful PvE it would detract from why the game exists. I think AO's biggest issue is that the areas are so boring and the gathering is not interesting enough to make me want to go risk fighting other players. The allure is simply not there.

[@dasobjektiv5557]

looking for OUTRIDERS, coming early February 2021; no PvP, only PvE and Coop in the Steam Discusion Forum of the game so many ask why not PvP and i´m fine with only Pve (i´m an old Guy) so many Pvp (mostly battle royal crap) out there, a good new PvE Shooter with Coop is welcome

[@Lexipumpkin783]

But it's a pvp game designed for pvp. Thats like getting mad you have to fight someone in a fighting game

[@weaver7811]

As a solo player I felt this whole video x.x Just can't play a game that won't eventually force me into a party to do a raid that I can't enjoy because I'll be getting dragged along by people who have done it a dozen times already. This is the reason City of Heroes is the only game I ever managed to get a max level character in.

[@Ralundrr]

I love the content my dude keep up the awesome work

[@JoshStrifeHayes]

Thanks Jungler, ill try my best to keep yo content coming :)

[@lordbstarkhell5471]

3:35 Man... oh man... You really get it. It's nice having people around and interact with them but most of the time I love doing things solo.

[@imonabudget4427]

When I played MMOs where everyone was doing his/her own thing without interacting I just felt more lonely because no one would talk to me. Group content is what makes a game great for me, I wouldn't be playing any MMO if it weren't for group content. I agree that it should not be required in the main storyline as that should be solo-able, but requiring it for certain boss drops or RvR mechanics is a great way to enhance the game for me. I also think that it encourages the development of communities within the game.

[@JoshStrifeHayes]

I agree, and i agree that some parts of the game do benefit from group mechanics, but its also the players responsibility to find other similar players and group up.

[@Kashanta]

This one really hit home for me. I actually stopped playing an MMO because it wouldn't let you advance until you finished a mandatory quest that sent you into the PVP arena, and I *hate* PVP.

[@sleepyancient6655]

Some high level player was camping and killing newbies in Tera a few years ago and decided to pick on me by killing me over and over. So I ended up complimenting him pretentiously until he broke the chat rules and got banned. I mean, how else was I supposed to deal with that? It wouldn't bother me so much if I had a chance to fight back (and that's why I chose a PvP server) but, as they say, all's fair in love and PvP war.

[@DeathbyPixels]

This video made so many things click in my head I never really had an explanation for. I've never enjoyed PvP games or game modes, outside of Overwatch, and this made me realise the reason is that unlike PvP in a game like WoW, I sort of know what to expect from Overwatch heroes. They're predictable to an extent. They only have so many abilities, they have a set amount of health/armour, and most people play them in a given way. With WoW, another game I play quite a lot, I simply can't do that. Yes, classes have a finite number of abilities, but add on specs and equipment and buffs from other classes and I just don't know what to do. On top of that, this video also explained WHY I play WoW solo in a way that made me not feel bad for doing it lmao. It's just the FEELING of having other people around, and it's nice to have the option to be social if I ever want to be. Excellent video.

[@antonsimmons8519]

Indeed. "just player single player games if you want to play alone" sweaty losers can't get a grip on the concept that playing solo is NOT playing alone. single player games do not include the option of grouping, chatting with others, etc. no living world with player economics, all that sort of thing. Basically comes down to people going "play how I play, or you are WRONG!"

[@Ezz0Clan]

Durial, my boy. Absolutely legendary Runescape icon.

[@JoshStrifeHayes]

06/06/2006

[@Ezz0Clan]

@@JoshStrifeHayes Never forget.

[@TheRockLobsterMafia]

@@Ezz0Clan care to explain to a new runescape player?

[@Ezz0Clan]

​@@TheRockLobsterMafia On 06/06/2006, A player named "Durial321" attended the first ever 99th Construction Party, held by player named "Cursed You". In this Party, there was an Player vs Player arena. If a player stood in the arena while being kicked out of the owners house, they retained the ability to kill people outside of the PCP or Combat zone. There we're others effected by this bug, however, Durial321 was the only one who had been caught on recording. This infamous event lead to what is now called the "Falador Massacre", when Durial took his newly found powers, and slaughtered players by his free will, acquiring their precious goods afterwards. His pretty much become synonymous around the community, while being praised by some and hated by others. Ultimately this was just an unfortunate oversight by Jagex, that lead to Durial's banning. There's a tad bit more to the story, but that's the general knowledge of the public. If you are interested, in more of the historical events of Runescape, I highly recommend just searching "Runescape History" or it's events. You'll be surely able to find loads of content and information on different mess ups, cover ups, scams, inside manipulation etc. No game is perfect, and certainly no MMO, when real life money is involved or power, a lot of corruption tends to happen. But for the most part, Jagex has remained as one of the more trust worthy developers as far as Old School and Runescape go.

[@TheRockLobsterMafia]

@@Ezz0Clan thank you so much for this in depth explanation. I really appreciate it. Sounds kind of like the corrupted blood incident in wow.

[@kuronanestimare]

16:54 I want to add that, in addition to there being an obvious design difference, many games that FORCE PVP also have PVP-specific gear that enables a player to perform better in PVP specifically (Resilience in WoW, for example) and many games also do not have proper stat scaling to make fights fair (Fresh Level 20 vs Level 28 Twink in WoW, again) any gear difference in PVE usually boils down to, at most 'You cannot complete this content, here's something you can do.' Any gear difference in PVP is 'You are a sheep in a dark cave and you hear growling from every direction, good luck.'

[@michaelkpate]

FFXIV is definitely not a game for people who hate Grouping.

[@razielonex2469]

Definetly not the case because there almost no random groups where there a problem due other players. I encountered only a few cases in over 1000 dungeons runs, where I could blame others and everyone is more or less friendly. The only problem is that it may could take while if you are playing a DD, but the waiting time is still very manageable, as you should easily find group, even for specific dungeons, as the daily random roulette involves every instance you already played, so the player pool for the for the group finder is pretty big.

[@PeeperSnail]

One of my favorite games on Roblox, which also happens to be an MMO, Vesteria, is guilty of the "the best PVE gear is locked behind PVP", at least for my favorite class. The Gladiator Armor has good late game stats, and its ability, which makes the user deal and receive 20% more damage, is perfect for the Berserker class, which favors putting all your points into strength and dexterity to become a glass cannon. You need about 50 or so Marks of Valor for the full set, which are items that a player drops upon death in the Colisseum (and you can only get once you make it out of the PVP zone alive), but ONLY if there's 10 or more high level players in the Colisseum server. For starters, good luck finding a server with the population requirement. Secondly, good luck not getting bodied by the more broken PVP classes like Paladin and Cleric. It's best to just grind coins and look for people in the Discord server that farm Marks to offer up for sale. It's how I got my armor set and I know many others did, too.

[@nijunikuro]

Finally, a sin that *doesn't* apply to "Shin Megami Tensei: Imagine". XD It does remind me of the EU Mabinogi server, tho. Some friends who played it kept asking me to join them so they could progress through the story, as some story-related quests required a party made of *exactly* a specific number of people to enter - and they were 1 player short, but didn't want to just ask strangers for help. :/

[@thy422]

Thank you for describing the reasons people like myself enjoy playing some mmos solo a lot of the time. It feels like many people don't seem to understand the appeal, especially content creators. It's nice to feel like I'm not insane for playing a game a different way.

[@PatentlyAwesome]

Looking at you, Bless Unleashed. Literally the entire game world is a PvP zone. You can be attacked by any player, any time, anywhere. Needless to say, I don't play Bless Unleashed anymore.

[@theendlessoptimist]

Old video, but the part about being alone around other people reminds me of way back when I played URU Online. I used to love sitting on the edge of a fountain in one of the key areas, just watching people come and go. Occasionally I'd point a new player in the right direction, but mostly I'd just spend hours sitting there, on that fountain, people-watching.

[@X1erra]

This is an easy one. I instantly quit Black Desert Online for the first and second reason. I wanted to PvE to the endgame but I'm level capped and locked off new skills unless I allow myself to be beaten up by some passerby while enjoying my time. Not worth the wrath that could be incurred by sticking it to the end.

[@WhereAml]

I was thinking of the shiled of arrav quest when you mentioned it, you sir, won it Ps: i just made another character and did it on my phone + pc

[@selkokieli843]

i have one character perpetually waiting in a spot ready to hand out the quest items for my next dozen characters :D that being said, i had luck and have made some friends during that quest

[@facelesshalo5174]

BDO: I wish to hunt here. For I cannot get money to advance without doing so. Another player who is maxed gear and will kill you easily: "Duel for spot"

[@karenerra]

Something I found really interesting with it's own pros and cons, is Final Fantasy XIV progressively "scripts" it's dungeons, starting with Heavensward they set a standard of "hall, boss, hall, boss, hall final boss" for every dungeon, side rooms were literally just one offs you could just run in, grab an extra chest, and keep going down the determined path. Each expansion builds on this trend with most dungeons in Shadowbringers using scripted environmental changes to limit how many mobs a tank can pull for example. The downside is, it becomes really dull after awhile, there's a lot less sense of exploration when it's your first time, I mean it's just hallways. On the other side though, with dungeons being so standardized, the issues around "I want to take my time and explore" and "I wanna rush to the end I'm doing my dailies" have been incredibly minimized, there is like nothing TO explore so you're all just heading the same way at the same pace, you don't HAVE a choice. They DO take advantage of this to really incorporate a lot of visuals and great storytelling in some of these dungeons though, when your players are following a set path you can easily present them practically a movie of environmental storytelling, effects, even NPC dialogue and some amazing visuals that contribute to each dungeons "narrative", many end of expansion dungeons become basically playable cutscenes, and it's GREAT, playing through events and experiencing story and conflict through tangible means instead of just watching a scene is always fun, it's just sad to see a lot of the early 1.0 and ARR dungeon design and feeling of exploration go away too. I don't know if it's the right choice, it's incredibly subjective, but I personally enjoy it for what it is, just wish they'd throw the other format a bone a bit more you know?

[@Teuwufel]

01:59 it's me in Sea of Thieves when all I want is to just do this one pve campaign and some douche kills me even though I tell him I don't have anything on my ship. They kill just for fun, just to ruin other people's progress (sometimes 2h of gameplay) and make them do id again or ragequit. It's making me mad and sad, because I love the game, atmosphere, but oh dear god some players...

[@JohnnyTightIips]

I really enjoy playing solo but in a guild. Content at my own pace but like minded people to engage with if I want to.

[@teknoromeo6170]

Don't forget griefing by a bored red player fully armed with powerful gear picking on other lower geared pve players. BDO has this alot. Forced pvp is terrible causing alot of pve solo players to quit.

[@spinnenente]

the bdo monetization and the lack of progress after a certain level made me quit. The quasi monthly subscription is also absolutely bs.

[@LauWG]

Why I prefer PvE to PvP (thought I have had periods of PvP, be it in WoW or other MMOs), is because killing a Boss is memorable, while killing a player among others is not, no matter the challenge your opponent player gives you. I have good memories of raids in WoW, and I only have figments from PvP, mainly how the battlegrounds and their mechanics work, and experience of what to do and what not to do, but that's it, I do not remember any player specifically, I can remember classes that I fought against maybe, but that's it. I play for the experience and the achievements, I feel a lot more proud to say "I was in the first 10 french guilds to have beaten the Flame Leviathan, the first boss of Ulduar in WoW 3.1" than I am saying "I was in the Top 1000 of season 387284 during Cataclysm".

[@metagen77]

That's because you don't meet your battleground opponents again, next lot of enemies will be chosen at random from a giant pool, you did not gain anything and there was nothing on the line for your, nothing that makes it memorable at all. The most intense memories I have are from oldschool mmos, I recall some UltimaOnline thieves pks traders and personal heros by name to this day.

[@GameplayzOfficial]

This is my top 1 reason I don't like 95% of the MMOs out there, I'm a lone wolf and I'm despised by every money hungry company out there, my only hope is Ashes of Creation, that doesn't force you into PvP, only if you want and actually can be convenient to defend a city to guard your resources, but other than that it's not forced.

[@jackkenseng2164]

Having to go to the wilderness is why I don't do clue scolls...sigh

[@osopeluche5953]

The number of times that I head "It's called A MMO for a reason sweaty :)" when I say that I'm a solo player. I like the solo experience, I like knowing that the MMO that I'm playing will get updated with more story content as I'm playing.

[@PaladinfffLeeroy]

Finally. Some recognition for people who aren't very social but do want to feel like part of something social. Humans are social creatures by nature, even if they are shy or introverted. I am an introvert but when a topic arises that I enjoy I can and will partake in the topic. But if I am forced to do group activity while I've generally been playing solo, like the story dungeons in FF14, I just hate it because: The people I get paired up with are veterans that were enticed to play these starter dungeons for the simple reward of massive XP gains and will thus be rushing through the content for their XP. This makes it so that I have no time to explore without invoking the wrath of those players. This means that I will get left behind if I all but dare to look around. This makes it so that bosses will be killed by my party without me because I am watching a cutscene. And in the case of FF14 I completely quit the game because of this. I was not having positive experiences in the game. And frankly, I consider the best content to be the crafting system. The story was too basic and too drawn out and filled with forced multiplayer. And it is very easy for people to say: "Then don't play an MMO, it's CLEARLY not for you." But that is just ignorance and trying to disregard those types of players. I mean, there is a reason I love Oldschool RuneScape. It is possibly the most single player friendly MMO out of the big ones. Yeah. There is some forced stuff like going to the wilderness for the Mage Arena capes or for clue scrolls. But the rest of the game is really solo friendly. Sure, there is group content like Pest Control or Barbarian Assault and these generally have dedicated worlds filled with players trying to reap the rewards from them so as a single player it is not hard to join them. The skilling bosses like Tempoross and Wintertodt also have dedicated worlds filled with people but they can also be completed on your own. I can just casually explore the world and the dungeons, read the ingame texts and books, look around in the environment for clues on how to complete the quest that I am on or what may have happened here in the past. Or I can just plant some allotment and herb seeds every now and then and log out. That is completely up to me and nobody else. And that is how I like it. And that is not to say that I do not do pvp content. I actually like the Soul Wars minigame now that it is properly balanced. I may not be good at the pvp but I can contribute and enjoy it. From gathering fragments and bones to actually killing some players or attacking the enemy boss. But all too often people are dismissing other players simply because of their own prejudice or their own image of what should and should not be. Thanks Josh! :D Great video.

[@MedusaZenovka]

For me EVE Online is a prime example of forced PVP interaction.

[@undraxis]

To be fair, thats their only interaction for all intents and purposes. Aside from Mining, there is no PVE at all. (well, i take that back, they did add a pve faction, but thats end game not leveling game)

[@ladrok97]

But EVE online is not mainly PVP game?

[@MedusaZenovka]

@@undraxis So mission running, exploration and gathering wh materials is not considered PVE? To me, thats (fighting and destroying) pretty PVEish to me. Doesn't matter if their main concept is PVP because these are crystal clear PVE elements.

[@PHEEliNUX]

Oh using Runescape for this is pretty fitting, I used to love that game ages ago, I actually had fun exploring and questing in the wilderness(after they removed the forced PvP in it), but when they returned it to it, I pretty much wanted to avoid that place like the plague.

[@KimFareseed]

Always on high alert when in there for training, ready to book it to the teleportation border as soon as somebody shows up. Though, the run to the Mage Arena Shop and bank, to purchase runes as an ironman ain't too bad. Not exactly anyone on the way in f2p worlds, though, I still don't run there with more then the Explorer's Ring. Always starting my run up there from the Mind Altar by the Goblin Village.

[@garbagebandit5934]

"Forcing PvE players to interact with PvP, and vice versa." So, Destiny 2.

[@Ravenoustoxic]

forcing PvE player to PvP is more like albion online.

[@kiwi3085]

Exactly why I can't stand that game. All the Gambit gear looks awesome but I have to play Gambit against other players to get it.

[@maevixie7041]

@@kiwi3085 I'd be playing Gambit 24/7 if invasions weren't a thing. Just two teams competing against each other in two separate PvE environments without jumping at each other. And if it had better matchmaking

[@Cada98]

@@maevixie7041 ON GOD- I was mainly a PVE player, then I wanted to get Thorn and Lumina... It was hell, in fact, I never got Lumina, only thorn.

[@Ch4pp13]

@@Cada98 I still don't have Malfeasance, and that quest has been on I think the final step for years at this point. Which really proves how godawful the Gambit experience is.

[@amixofgeekcontent]

Oh yeah, the Shield of Arrav quest. I still gotta do that one, lol. Wait, is that mammoth wearing a crown? And a hat??

[@StudioUAC]

I play wow solo. I love it! i find it more fun to just do the quest line, level up to max level and farm old raids for rare mounts.

[@Draconianite]

A big difference between pve and pvp in terms of mmos that seems to get overlooked is the scale and pacing in fights, when you enter a pve fight vs a boss in mmos like wow or ff14 your likely to be there for at least a few mins and the main mechanics are often based around moving in the correct ways while doing your damage, meanwhile pvp in the same types of games is often a quick affair lasting 5-60 seconds with the main mechanics being more around using and avoiding crowd control to disrupt your opponents moves and combos. The end result being that people looking for big epic grand scale fights will find their fill more in pve while the high speed action play occurs in pvp and neither does anything to prepare players for the other when they are thrust outside of their prefered style.

[@Rustyboat94]

Based on your interpretation of wrath in MMO design, GTA Online is sounding like the Realm of Khorne.

[@brandoncain3730]

6:22 That first point resonates with my soul. Especially in FFXIV. My main Job is a dragoon, and I can barely register what dungeon we're in before 70% of Tanks are off making Leroy Jenkins blush, and dragging a quarter of the dungeon to them. I'm mashing my javelin throw, doing what damage I can during their mad dash. And when the Tank stops, and if the Healer isn't prepared for their antics and the overwhelming numbers, it ends in a wipe. With the tank aiming to point blame to the healer, or the DPS. And I'm just sitting here like. "Uhh...you pulled like, half the dungeon, dude. What'd you expect to happen?" I even tried tanking with rando's as a Gunbreaker, and both the DPS were reapers, and they decided to pull half the dungeon while I was still dealing with the first set of mobs. Naturally, I try my best to entertain the party they invited, but, inevitably died, as I'm not a tank main in any MMO. The FFXIV job system only screams to my Completionist, and I desire to master them all. Otherwise, I wouldn't bother healing or tanking. Anyroad, after the wipe, these reapers whip around and get on my ass about not using my damage mitigations properly or this or that. Where I habitually saving the mitigations for exceedingly large groups, or to try and survive a tankbuster. Thankfully, the healer was on my side for this interaction, as the Reaper's pulled more than what was survivable, even if both me and the Healer knew exactly what we were doing. Thankfully haven't seen them since. I play FFXIV casually, and have only done the Crystal Tower Raids because the MSQ said so. I barely ever do dungeons as a tank or healer unless its with friends, where we can run at a reasonable pace. Mind you, there are plenty of reasonable people during the dungeons, and there are numerous creative souls within the Unofficial Roleplay servers of Balmung and Mateus. But, I am hesitant to run Dungeons with randos due to poor interactions such as these, especially as a Healer or Tank. As clunky as they are, I am SO very happy that they are implementing the Duty Supports. If a tank or healer didn't know how to survive wall-to-wall in FFXIV, it felt... frowned upon. Similar to how it felt frowned upon (In my humble opinion) to be a Tank or Healer if you didn't have a full set of fully-leveled heirloom gear in World of Warcraft. (...I can still hear the Chauffeur Bikes...)