The Psychology of Classic Servers

[@casediedwell5094]

You missed "Want to play a version of a game that hasn't been Microtransactioned and F2P'd to DEATH..."

[@123phi123]

Blizzard fixed that, don't worry

[@xiuhnani6945]

@@123phi123 "No fun on my watch!" - Blizzard, actually

[@PrettyGuardian]

That's a really good point, and I think a big part of why we have such rose colored glasses for older games. In spite of all of the improvements to gaming over the last decade, companies have put in equal if not more effort into monetizing them and sucking the fun out of them.

[@Handle35667]

Seriously? He made a 20 minute video and didn’t mention monetization?

[@whwhywhywhywhywhywhy]

It's why I switched to ffix after trying GW2 and ESO. The microtransactions are still outrageous but at least their on a website and not in game.

[@TheApolloAthletic]

Josh just gave us a physics lesson, a psychology lesson, and a game design lesson all in an entertaining 18 minute video. Hats off to you Josh. You make an excellent instructor. 👏

[@grandruby5343]

I'm pretty sure he was a teacher is I'm not mistaken

[@Giantkiller130-t]

@@grandruby5343 yep he used to be a teacher for grade school

[@TheApolloAthletic]

@@grandruby5343 A theater instructor and a martial-arts instructor if my memory is correct.

[@tree4318]

I was wondering why this channel always learns me things, then I find out he was a teacher.

[@whathappenedto9374]

Hes exceptional talented

[@topooly]

For me the difference was that in old WoW every little thing felt like an accomplishment, but in modern WoW nothing feels like that, expect for the few who can do the most cutting edge, most hardcore raiding content. The game is objectively bigger than ever, but actually it feels smaller and less immersive than ever, because only a tiny portion of the overall content is relevant or active.

[@619ver1]

Yeah, before i stopped playing at the end of Cata, it felt like that already. I mean there were many small things which made things feel special. Having to do quests for your shaman totems, grinding for a certain weapon or armor cause of a speical set bonus. Sitting around a dungeon entrance waiting for a group to form. Wasteland chat. SO many small things which i sadly feel are very hard to recreate.

[@riotangel4701]

Each expansion makes the previous versions increasingly insignificant and irrelevant. A game design I already disliked on release of *Burning Crusade* .

[@arandomcheese]

In classic completing a single dungeon is a huge achievement. In retail you don't feel accomplished until you finish a heroic raid.

[@lief3414]

The earlier versions of wow are more of a multiplayer sandbox, while the latter are closer to a singleplayer experience with side of status validation. It's not just mmorpgs though, it's a trend across all multiplayer genres, reflecting how the gamers as a whole have evolved throughout the years. Given the rising popularity of gaming, the profit oriented game conglomerates and the ever-expanding scene I fear it'll only get worse.

[@Nathan_Moor]

Yeah, for me I draw the line an enemy mobs. If the mobs I kill when leveling is not a threat, if the quests do not present some form of challenge. I'm out. I want to earn things, not press a button and be called a hero.

[@kirkendauhl6990]

“In RuneScape there’s a quest list or you can fish for the next six months” don’t @ me like that, Josh, goddam 😂

[@kidoren1395]

Hes not wrong though. Fuck tick fishing lmao that's so AIDs

[@TiamosLoren]

I keep breaking on hearing that line. But I think it's more accurate to say "or you can invest in your inner arsonist and make fires for six months".

[@PaupersSerenade]

Literally sitting at fishing guild to afk some yak trak progress rn. Sometimes I worry that I'm so predictable haha

[@dumbodum]

At 10:00 is he playing OSRS or RS3?

[@kirkendauhl6990]

@@dumbodum he’s playing RuneScape3, there’s an option within the settings to change the interface to represent Legacy mode which is similar to the format of OSRS. Think of it as a retro themed RuneScape3 interface

[@rileey8685]

I think I am a bit of a weird case when it comes to classic MMO's. I never really played MMO's at all until classic WoW. I saw my dad playing WoW when I was very little I don't even recall what expansion it was he played or what class, but I loved to watch it without knowing what was going on. I had tried to play retail, but it all was so confusing and I always eventually quit after about a week. So when my friends I had previously only played games like CS:GO, Terraria, and others approached me about this "Classic WoW" I was super excited to try out playing it. In the end it boiled down to just me and another friend leveling 1-60 together, both of us warriors (Another friend played but he was a mage and played a lot more than us and leveled at like 10x the speed we did). I was still in High School at the launch of classic, so it took us both a while to reach max. Once we did reach max level though and joined our guild I can confidently say Vanilla Classic WoW is my favorite game of all time. There has never been a game that can replace the feeling of walking around SW and being able to clearly recognize almost every person. I could literally walk around and inspect people from other guilds gear and be like "Oh looks like he finally got his DFT this week. Looks like he finished his thunderfury this week. He hit rank 12 this week." People that I had maybe only talked to once or twice or played with in a premade BG once before or something. The sense of community was great I loved the late nights looking over videos I recorded of myself playing in raid just to critique myself and learn. I would do anything to be able to play Classic again with the player base it had the first time. So from me personally I love the idea of classic MMO's and hopefully we can see Classic vanilla again with just a few changes this time around. :)

[@pullt]

I helped run one of the supermarket studies Josh refers to. When there are 15-20 pasta sauce options, you can have ample options for your general preference while also being able to be confident the one you choose is the "right" sauce. When there are 100+ options, the large group of very similar choices makes any single one feel less "right"

[@UNFETTER3D]

Even when there are only 15 a true analysis will require actually buying each and trying it to find out which you like the best.

[@Alresu]

@@UNFETTER3D I don't know about the original studies, but at least in most of those I heard of, people were allowed to test the product before buying it. They did not have to go by product name and design.

[@UNFETTER3D]

​@@Alresu From what I remember, the study was about options on a shelf but I can't tell you 100%.

[@xxKuro1]

The reason people go back to Legacy servers is usually because everything matters in those servers. Your starting area is important, your first mob, your low level gear, the people you meet along the way and how the importance of advantage in numbers gets you to try and band together to push on. It's no longer a carousel ride where everyone, including the devs, are rushing you to end game. All the game needs to be impactful and have a meaning or else nothing has. I am an classic Lineage 2 player that has played since C4 and have kept playing up until today, and I realise that even on the retail, even with all the add-ons I still make my character look like a low level newbie... Because I dont care about looking like a flashy neon dragon warrior as the end game thinks.... I just want to roam the fields have meaningful fights with monsters and go on adventures...

[@kumomeme7852]

*I just want to roam the fields have meaningful fights with monsters and go on adventures...* you worded this nicely brother

[@Feuerhamster]

Rush to endgame is honestly the worst trend of MMO. The notion that all intermediate content is just an interactive tutorial or a mere milestone on the road to True Endgame Content (which is usually 1-2 dungeons and maybe a world boss) is wasteful from the design perspective and disrespectful from players' side. My first MMO, and the one I most frequently return to, is RO, and i definitely remember being utterly annihilated by a harmless-looking butterfly more vividly than all the stressful Biolabs grind.

[@saellenx3528]

if the game was free to play i would agree with you, but because its not i dont agree. Paying to play again that what you already payed for 10 years ago is mental sickness and clear sign of addiction in my opinion. People should learn to move on, and not to support garbage Companies.

[@TheBrazilRules]

@@saellenx3528 You must be stupid or something. We pay to keep the servers online, not for the game. Even WoW wich is both a pay to buy and subscription game don't charges for the classic game, just the sub.

[@saellenx3528]

@@TheBrazilRules the only ones who are stupid are people who pay every Month for the game that is 10 years old or older and that they played trough already. No wonder garbage Companies like EA,Activison,Blizzard,Ubisoft are still in bussines with idiots supporting them. Edit: i am talking here primary about Blizzard and their Wow Classic versions that people played trough and payed for and have still done it 15 years later again. With "Classic Fresh" they are gonna do it for third time. If you dont see mental problems in such behaviour i dont know what to tell you.

[@ValoranVale]

As you put it yourself in a previous video, the most successful update to WoW was the removal of the past 17 years of updates. Given enough time and divergence from core design philosophies, developers of long running games have a good track record of messing up the game. Sometimes the games with legacy servers were just genuinely better games than what they evolved into. This is the case with Runescape to be sure, and likewise for WoW.

[@benoitrousseau4137]

"Analysis-paralysis." No, it's even worse. In World of Warcraft we literally run sims of our characters to find out if something is an upgrade. There is no paralysis, although there is virtually no choice either the computer tells you what will do more damage and you pick that. WoW has gone so far down the road of "core gamer" content that both Blizzard and the community has been conditioned to think of WoW as a competitive lobby game first and an MMORPG second.

[@LethLL]

The day I have to break out a spreadsheet to have fun is the day I quit playing that game.

[@rickroll9705]

I mean... so you have a plethora of options and... is it bad? you can fiigure kinda easy what is an upgrade or not between trinkets and conduits building accordingly to the legendary/tier set as always. Classic wow there is no secret because there are no options at all lol.

[@CaptainJackedPickle]

Sounds like a trash game?

[@Armchaiirwarrior]

@@rickroll9705 What choice are you talking about? Domination socket gear is out of choice, so are legendary item slots, rest is decided by ilvl and sims so choice is done by the pc, not you. What's so secretive in picking a m+ piece#1 over m+ piece#2?

[@rickroll9705]

@@Armchaiirwarrior So are tier sets. You can do +15 and do all the rading content whitout a single socket... as the world first did lol. Some legendaries such as elysian might makes investing in crit for warriors a necessity whereas nightfae boosts mastery for example, a NF shadow priest do a lot of damage a venthyr Spriest have a strong offensive/defensive ST spell. There you have more choice than entire classes in vanilla, delusional to say otherwise. You dont have to sim any of it either, sorry but if you are actually simming anything aside maybe a trinket you are just below average in general.

[@SerPodrick]

having never played WoW i just subbed for 1 month and have now tried 10 or so hours in retail, classic, and classic tbc. i feel that while the classic versions may not be as user-friendly for 2022 standards they are an overall better experience as a game because i was not given 10000 powerful items within 15 minutes of playtime; i actually had to play the game to gain power. i couldnt mindlessly stare at a minimap to follow an arrow and kill mobs within a set area, i actually had to read the quest log and figure out where to go. i got the impression that retail WoW wants to rush the player through the game as fast as possible to get to end game grind cycles / guild guilt play whereas classic wants the player to just experience the game organically.

[@RedJake33]

I'll point to Old School RuneScape. It's no longer a Legacy game, it's evolved into its own beast. Legacy games can't last forever, because either people get bored and move on, or new content gets added, ultimately defeating the purpose of said server.

[@opggez391]

most people just want legacy mechanics. its mainly to take away additions that they dont like that werent in legacy versions.

[@kevadu]

@@opggez391 In theory, sure, but it's not like everyone even agrees on which additions were good and which were bad.

[@henryviiifake8244]

@@opggez391 Not necessarily. Sometimes the entire game feels too unfamiliar for people who haven't played in a long time. E.g. I'm definitely no hardcore player, but after ceasing to play what is now "Old School Runescape" due to school and life, Runescape 3 feels like a _completely_ different game to Old School Runescape/Runescape 2. *In my opinion, WoW Classic and modern WoW have far more in common than OSRS and Runescape 3.*

[@tippyc2]

@@opggez391 I think that's exactly it, people want the mechanics to stay the same. If you're trying to go back to an old game, finding out there's a new mechanic or meta can be discouraging, especially if it means you have to spend hours getting back to the point you were at previously. Instead of going back to an old favorite, it feels like you're playing some new game altogether. Conversely, new maps, areas, or quests aren't really a bad thing. Unfortunately so many games add new skill trees required to complete the new area or quest. Warframe is a great example. Back in the day it was just space ninjas with guns and swords. You had just a couple dozen resources that crafted everything in different combinations. Nowadays, there's at least 5 different crafting trees with their own items you gotta farm independently. And each of them brings with it a new mechanic you cant really skip if you wanna farm effectively. If there was a classic version a la late 2013, with none of the operator missions, simpler mods, no arcanes, no archwings, no railjacks, and no fishing (really, warframe, fishing? in a space ninja game?), I think there's a decent number of people who would consider it.

[@Notius]

@@shugo1047 RS1 legacy servers were available from the release of RS2 under the name RS Classic, and didn't close until 2018 (because it wasn't viable to keep servers open for a handful of regular players). Sorry you missed it.

[@hulmhochberg8129]

"when u see someone riding on a lucid nightmare, you know he had to go through that mace" i felt that on a spiritual level. had to go to work after 4 hours and start over again for another 3

[@ragnarokda206]

You gave a good description on why Guild Wars 2 combat feels more impactful than most MMOs I've played once you've fully understood your choices.

[@Cornbane]

In my case it was remembering the feeling I had playing the older version. But reality sunk in when I realized the people played with back then made it that way. They aren't around now, new people don't always bring the same level of enjoyment. Especially in the age of content creation. And I fully agree with your section on having too many abilities, ability rotations and analysis paralysis. In fact, it's why I like Monster Hunter a lot. You don't have a large selection of attacks, but you can get off that big one that is visible to everyone and sends the monster reeling. I've can't even count how many times I've complemented my buddies on landing a good strike that sent the monster to the ground. For the most part, MMO's just have buttons you press that do damage. I challenge you to enter a dungeon and use an interrupting skill to stop an enemy spell cast or action. See if anyone notices.

[@AbolishtheNFA]

I know outdated response so not trying to say something you may already be aware of but with the new mythic dungeon structure wow put in interrupts and CC may just become useful again and I'm thankful... Yeah I'm old now and my reaction time shows it but it feels more rewarding when you actually play a unique role in the game rather than just one of many button mashers.

[@fizzplease6742]

Ohhh this reminds me of that fleeting period in classic WoW when I was an expert on everything about hunter pets. Which were good and why, where to get them, etc etc.

[@The92Waffles]

in the case of vanilla WoW - I just love the simplicity of the game. It doesn't over-encumber you with mechanics and game systems and it just lets you *play*. Granted, I recognize I probably would not be into Classic WoW had I not played it in 2005

[@noyyii]

I didn't really play WoW until MIsts of Pandaria and honestly playing classic wow (on priv servers) is much more fun than retail to me for the exact reason you mentioned

[@mattjharrisyahoo]

I didn't play WoW back when it first came out. I did play Wow Classic and Classic TBC. I wanted to see what the fuss had been about. I had a blast for about a year and a half but eventually burned out.

[@waveyzen]

Its why in Classic a clear goal of fulfilling the one system of having good gear as opposed to trying to fill out 10s of many different systems for character progression in retail is way more attractive and gives everyone a clearer common goal/competition Alot of this psychology is highlighted at its best when players share loot during group looting, everything has much more value In order for new content, the same game design philosophy and small number of systems must be maintained

[@Tall_Order]

When EverQuest II first started doing progression servers I was quick to re-sub to the game. Although I quickly found out all of the expansion content was still there. I should not have been able to visit Halas (The Barbarian city, which became a starting area at one point). Turned out all they did was use the updated client, and lock off the expansion zones, but kept the starting area rather than bringing back the original.

[@kebubas]

I came back to OSRS because I missed the simplicity, there was the nostalgia element too, but I like how the devs are giving the community a chance to voice their opinions on changes (in-game I might add) to be implemented or skipped.. OSRS is different from what it was in 2008, new things were added, some quality of life improvements and ui changes were made and I must say, the game feels great and the community is as healthy as I remember it being back in the day.. also MAD respect for allowing third-party launchers that give further optional quality of life improvements

[@kidoren1395]

Except that the polling system could possible be doing more damage than good. Plus Jagex didnt have much of a choice with runelite since I'm guessing a good 75% of playerbase use it. Hell even the Jmods use runelite. They would lose too many players.

[@JohnSmith-ox3gy]

@@kidoren1395 Certainly what the few remnants of pvp community thinks.

[@dakotashroom5401]

The simplicity of OSRS, aka Runescape, has always been one of its strong points.

[@Ryzen776]

The third point really it home with me and OSRS. I KNOW that game. I'm close to maxing a Iron, and I'm familiar with all that the game has to offer. The best thing is, I can leave and go play others games, knowing that the world I know and love will still be there at my return. There's going to be a few update to check out, maybe a quest or two to do and a new boss to kill, but everything else's still the same and my progress hasn't been wiped out. It's not like game like retail WoW, where you take a few month break and suddenly people are running new dungeons and raids in new zones with new gearsets and your skill tree has been reset because they've reworked the whole thing and you just don't know what is what anymore. The game you've wanted to return to? Buried under the sea of dead and obsolete content this never-ending hamster wheel create in its wake.

[@Hero-oz9gx]

what about the people who want to play the 2008 version of runescape for the simplicity of it? we need a new 07scape pserver or something. but unfortunately that too was taken down by jagex, a year before OSRS came out. There is enough content in the game to last, many people, many years, and the game keeps changing to facilitate the people who play it nonstop, and you are always feeling left behind in some way unless you grind exorbant hours to catch up, with the base game at 2007, most of us still want that, and arent enjoying the new game being just a more complicated version of what it was in 2007, some of us actually would like to play the 2007 version of the game, and that was given to us, then taken away from us. so, thats why i dont play runescape anymore, i play classic WoW and run a PvP guild and am very happy with my experience so far.

[@gamingthunder6305]

i feel you missed one important point. UO, meridian 59 and EQ and even wow in the beginning could not hold more then 3k players. this had as consequence that you had less players to interact with and you would see familiar names all the time. this is simply no longer the case with wow cross server play and the typical lobby based mmo where you rarely see the same name twice even when a new mmo launches.

[@ankh-ef-en-khonsu3274]

man, meridian59 brings back memories.

[@josephmandarino2199]

@@ankh-ef-en-khonsu3274 What server / guild were you in M59?

[@user-zu1ix3yq2w]

Yeah.. good point. Helps avoid over congestion too... usually see some stuff in a persistent world adequately designed to hold a certain number of players, but not other stuff.

[@msolomonii9825]

Wise and true words!

[@jerod5636]

Man, I tried playing a t2a era UO pserver a while ago and everything about it was awful. That magic is gone.

[@clewfirstcfer]

The first 10 levels always seem to be the most fun, especially going from rags and sticks to armor and weapons. It drags after that.

[@Ghost_Drive]

5:30 As someone about to go into studying chaos and nonlinear dynamics, I was not expecting to see the double pendulum in an mmo video. Thank you for making people aware of this!

[@KoutetsuSteel]

It's definitely super janky, but I love the old version of FFXI (the one that is only available on p-servers...) much more than the current retail version...

[@-games5524]

Early days of FFXI were the best. The sense of community was insane, everyone had to really work together to be effective, mastering not only the timing of skills/spells but also making sure your character is in the correct position towards the mob....god I miss that game lol.

[@Razeluxe01]

I actually just started playing XI on a private server just the other day. It's really enjoyable. It's got this certain quality to it that modern mmo's just don't seem to have.

[@brutalnobody5240]

game was made to early and computers at the time got Fleece'd by the game. Doesn't matter how good the game is if your playing at 10fps

[@KoutetsuSteel]

@@brutalnobody5240 When I was playing on the private servers, I was getting 60 FPS (there's an addon/plugin that allows you to do 60 fps)

[@brutalnobody5240]

@@KoutetsuSteel Can't read, bad with roman numerals kek

[@fieryphoenix82]

This video literally taught me something about myself I didn't know. I knew I liked the early stages of an mmo more than that late game, but I never really analyzed why. I am impressed beyond measure.

[@bumbertyr]

I think that Legacy servers could work in a case by case basis if the "Classic" version of the game is different enough, for example Maplestory. The identity of Maplestory has shifted from a slow paced "Social Classic RPG" with emphasis on Role Based gameplay to a fast paced "Action RPG" where you focus more on yourself and solo-progression with light social elements when fighting late-end game bosses. Many of the social aspects of the game were sacrificed for the sake of convenience like other MMORPG's, but there was also a massive shift in the way the game played functionally. If you look at Classic videos of Maplestory, you'll see that the combat was much more slow paced, focusing more on single target gameplay with light mobbing once you started to get into the higher levels. Mobs also took multiple hits to kill a majority of the time. This encouraged players to party up and grind together to maximize their exp rates, though solo grinding was still a viable option due to most, if not all, mobs dropping some sort of valuable item that could be sold on the market. The game now focuses heavily on Min-maxing your character to an insane degree to one shot monsters with Map-wide attacks while also soloing said map. Raids have been reduced from 18 players to 6 players while also (sadly) dialing the P2W up immensely (Seemingly the sad fate of KRMMO's). Every character also has advanced movement allowing them to traverse maps at practically 3-4x the speed of the original game when on mounts. The way the game plays and feels is so drastically different that the game practically became its own sequel without releasing a new title. I also think that a classic server shouldn't a 1:1 creation. It should be keeping the core gameplay and progression in tact while providing QoL, balancing, and improving player pains that existed originally without reducing the overall difficulty of the game. For Example I don't think that boss should be the same if a Classic Maplestory Server was to be made. There were no real mechanics, and the bosses essentially just spammed debuffs while setting your HP and MP to 1. If a classic server was to be made, It would make more sense to revamp the bosses to make them more engaging while still adhering to the core gameplay of the Classic game. How I see it, the goal of a Classic Server should be to deliver a superior experience for new and old players alike while also offering new adventures/experiences for both groups of players. A classic server shouldn't stop updating, but extra care should be taken to ensure that new content/updates don't compromise the core gameplay/balance. To summarize, I believe that if the classic game vs the current game are so drastically different that they appeal to entirely different kinds of RPG players (with slight overlap because of nostalgia) I do think they could exist simultaneously. It would just require that the Legacy/Classic server continued to provide new experiences without compromising the core gameplay to deliver a superior version of the classic game. Hope you see this, I've seriously been wondering what your thoughts on Maplestory are.

[@markchang2964]

Wow.

[@TheAyanamiRei]

I actually believe your idea makes PERFECT sense and should certainly be something done. There's no need to bring in past bugs or issues, when there are good Quality of Life improvements to be made, to remove some of the busy work. While also retaining a lot of the original feel from the game. For instance, forcing characters to take several seconds to gather a resource, instead of letting them do so quickly. Which was a REAL pain in the butt for the Phantasy Star Online series. This also applies to classes/abilities that were super broken. Along with removing exploits like that Murder Cave in Destiny 1 or 2, where it spawned infinite baddies so it became the fastest and easiest way to level up in the game. They could also offer up encouragement to incentivize them into more popular choices like "Hey Solo is totally viable, but if you party, you can get a small EXP boost or drop chance" or "Hey if you want a more social experience, we suggest this path" They could even do some simplification like "You can choose this Offense or Defense ability" at level up. Giving a series of smaller choices, rather than constantly looking at an entire talent tree at level up, with the option to explore it outside of when you level up.

[@kidoren1395]

Dude I just miss chilling at Heyneyses training ground chatting with a bunch of people. Kinda miss that ngl.

[@dannyVulture]

I had no idea Maple Story was this complex. I played it for years and was completely blind to the things you mentioned. Your ideas would apply well to many MMOs that became more like online, single player games with attached multiplayer elements

[@Aurirang]

I played Maplestory since the Cygnus knights came out. (On and off though, had some gabs in the playing) I admit, i did not enjoy the starting game AT.ALL. everything was needlessly cumbersome. Travelling anywhere took up afternoons because you missed the damn ship again or got slaughtered by mobs spawning on the ships or realised you forgot to accept another quest. Also mobbing was incredibly slow. At the start (as a mage in particular) you kinda perched yourself on a safespot and then kept thriwing bubbles at one mob until your mp ran out, sat down for like 5 minutes and then kept on. dropping a potion or anything of worth to sell was a highlight. The mapdesign in general was horrendous. Huge maps with traps in them where monster spawned that could just wipe you. sleepy forest was an absolute death trap you couldn't get out of anymore. Big bang fixed a fuckton of these issues (and bricked some characters like my bishoph). Characters weren't reliant on lucky drops anymore so you could get much needed potions, you could actually travel around without 'loosing' an entire afternoon and generally progression felt much more satisfying. I actually found a nice community after the bb-update, before i was a compelte loner. I guess merging Demethos and Kradia eventually made sense from an upkeep perspective but the people from Demethos actually enjoyed their little, tightknit community (without any botters btw). Having been forcefully thrown into the newly named Luna kinda... made me grow distant as suddenly there was an overwhelming amount of other players, complete price mayhem and battles for leveling maps were fierce. I quite maple for a good while after the merge. Eventually i returned for the reboot server, which i'm glad does exist as it is pretty non p2w. As for how maplestory nowadays looks; yes, the gameplay went from almost agonizingly slow, with chaotic class leveling and more often than not something not working, to a more sleek experience where classes have their set skills (But way enough classes to select from). Its a grindfest, that's for sure. (My main just hit lvl 250 a week ago) I'd say Maplestory is in a way better place than in its beginning, but there's alot of QoL-things that are still long overdue. Finding a community is simple with the still intact guild system and nobody gets mad if you're a bit slow or just like to henehoe (aka chill out at the main city). I'd say the social apsect of the game is still very much there although i'd say it peaked somewhere around 2 years after big bang.

[@Jayy9090]

Great video. The analysis paralysis part of the video is a big reason I love Oldschool Runescape so much. Combat itself seems so simple, but your choices in the spells you use, where you stand, the gear/weapons you equip all have a significant impact on what you actually do.

[@kirayoshikage4057]

"stand here and spamclick prayer icon to preserve points" Yeah I'd rather deal with analysis paralysis than paralysis of my right hand.

[@619ver1]

would love a gw2 legacy version Edit: To explain more, prefered the skill tree of the gw2 early version, having to meet certain conditions to get elite skills more reminiscent of Gw1, also the stronger focus on exploration and world events.

[@619ver1]

@@Kendahna That among other things, my main issue that since path of fire i feel all that is added is a new map resource to farm.

[@homeless0alien]

I cant count the number of times ive had this conversation with people but you have to be the only other person who also truly understands the WHY of legacy games. You really truly understand the mechanics of what makes an MMO great and i really wish you would get into game dev because you would make an astonishing designer.

[@Tetsu9701]

You arent alone. As a fan of older MMOs like EQ & XI, I understands. Check out Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen.

[@HumanPerson_final]

I'm a shy person, but my fondest MMORPG memories are from Everquest Online Adventures, a game where grouping up to grind mobs for hours and hours is required. Often, quests also required you to group just to kill some specific mobs. Even with an LFG tool, the game forced you to interact with others beyond just joining a group and killing mobs. You typically had to communicate at least some basic information, such as location and if you needed to rest. Friendships were more easy to form with other players. In games like WoW where grouping and socializing is basically done for you by an LFG tool, even teleporting you to a random dungeon you probably don't want to run, I've had zero lasting friendships. That's partly my fault, but it's also got to be partly due to the game just not encouraging players to actually interact beyond killing mobs in a dungeon/raid. I've done countless dungeons without saying a single thing to anyone in the group. Or groups where no one says anything at all. You couldn't really play EQOA solo for long, but you can play the bulk of WoW without speaking to a single person. Speaking as someone who typically loves playing solo, I think MMORPGs would benefit if they went back to focusing more on forcing players to interact beyond just hitting "accept" on a dungeon queue pop up.

[@plmPissekatt]

I don't want to come off as oppositional, but I do disagree that the mechanics are all that makes or breaks a community. I'm not even past the first expansion in FFXIV but I've had a lot more fond memories and gotten more friend requests tanking dungeons there than I did in WoW for the last three expansions. It's still a dungeon finder. You still queue up with a bunch of random strangers but everyone says "Hi" at the start and "Bye" at the end and hell sometimes there's even some back and forth and jokes in between. I can't even remember the last time someone used the group chat in WoW while leveling if it wasn't to insult some poor sod.

[@BMoser-bv6kn]

@@plmPissekatt That's an interesting theory - that the kind of people who'd play World of Warcraft are not the kind of people you'd want to be chatty with. It's kind of like going to Wal-Mart and not making eye contact with anyone, we're not here to make friends buddy. There's a video here on youtube about cursed problems in video game design, intractable problems that simply can't be resolved, flat out. The dream all these people falling for kickblaster scams are chasing is kind of obvious - what they're looking for isn't a multiplayer game (people are *terrible*!), what they really want is more akin to NPCs driven by a real AI. Who can be more invested in the world than just making the numbers go up and aesthetics.

[@HumanPerson_final]

@@plmPissekatt That's a good point. I haven't gotten too deep into FFXIV, but they are a friendly bunch. There's a lot of overlap in players for FFXIV/WoW/etc., so I wonder what it is about WoW specifically that makes people just not talk. It's like a mentality that dungeons are about leveling/gear and *that's it* has pervaded the game to the point where people just don't push against that norm? The "gotta go fast" rush through every bit of group content isn't fun, but there was never much you can do about it. I remember going to lower level dungeons once I was at max level just so I could really experience the dungeon storyline alone, since you can't do it in a group. I've met nice people in WoW and some of the greatest people in my life once played WoW, so it's not that the whole player base is rotten. Maybe there's some weird psychology issue caused by something in the game.

[@wideboi5179]

Yeah, they had that in Final Fantasy XI too. after about level 10 or 15 you could no longer solo in any practical way, so in order to level up, groups would get formed and you'd drag a single higher level mobs to you group and smash it down. This was done for hours on end to level up.

[@ystrw]

@@plmPissekatt I played WoW from Wrath to Legion, and sat in on a lot of gaming runs with friends who started at Vanilla. I'm currently in Classic BC, having done Classic Vanilla, and the difference between the games is such that the only thing they have in common is the log-in music. In classic, people grouping to take on a crowded quest area, an escort quest, a named mob or an elite together is standard procedure, and zone-wide calls for it are a basic courtesy. ('Anyone else need the Fel Reaver parts? Forming a group.') There's more manners- people thank you for group, they buff you unasked, and they occasionally throw heals on you or help you kill something if you're getting overwhelmed. Or if they get there too late, they might rez you to save you the run. There's also a great deal of chatter in general and trade, and a more generally helpful attitude. (Except in Barrens. Barrens chat in Vanilla and Zangarmarsh in BC, is where you go to find out who needs to be on your Ignore list.) It's a vastly more player-interactive game than retail, where you can log in and log out three hours later without anyone having typed a word. It reminds me a great deal of Pandaria's Timeless Isle, where players showed a remarkable degree of cooperation in shouting-out the rares, sharing rare-spawn timers, and warning when events were starting. I didn't realize at the time that it was a throwback to early days, but I do now get why people say dungeon/raid finder broke the social aspect of the game. Not being able to jump around from this server to that in search of a run means that even if you personally don't say much in game, you know and recognize your community- certain players and the various guilds. It's a nice change after empty cities, isolated garrisons and silent class halls.

[@jimbotheimpaler4756]

I’ve replayed vanilla wow on fresh servers 6 times now and had a blast every time. There’s burn out at max level but the rush of that initial launch is so hype it never gets old for me!

[@Shauma_llama]

It's the journey. 😎 Plus, you can play a different class each time for a slightly different experience.

[@inquisitorlev8456]

"Maybe the demographic of the game itself changes." Yes, and this has been the case for a long time. To increase revenue, it has been the trend in MMOs to adjust the type of gameplay typically found genre to appeal to a wider audience. Appealing to gamers with different preferences has had a number of effects over the years, such as making base gameplay more casual, and creating an esports like division for those seeking a greater challenge and competition. And this, in my opinion, has been the greatest detriment to the MMORPG genre--the artificial, anti-immersive shattering of the experience in order to appeal to players perhaps more at home in a different genre. Endgame being the actual game, completely separate arena minigames/track, dungeon finders, catering to solo play, complex twitch based combat, evaporation of player reputation, etc. can all be traced back to this. This has happened for so long now that the demographic of MMORPGs is significantly different from what it used to be in the glory days UO, EQ, AC, and DAoC (among others). Some of the old timers (like myself) still pop in, now and again, but the games have changed, and I would argue not necessarily for the better in some significant ways. Thankfully, there are games on the horizon that are looking at revisiting some of the forgotten aspects of what made the MMORPG genre unique.

[@thegreatdream8427]

I've been reading "Designing Virtual Worlds", by Richard Bartle (as one of my life goals has been since childhood to make a graphical MMO that is as deep as any classic text based MUD), and I'm kind of aghast at the bright future he envisioned back in 2003 for MMOs, with the expectation that they would actually be about *roleplaying* - I realized that I don't even think of MMOs as having anything to do with roleplaying, even though it's in the name - they seem like they're just... e-sports, to me. Having played a little bit of Avalon and a lot of roguelikes (which while single player tend to have similar depth of system complexity to MUDs), I sort of have a feeling what role playing games are *supposed* to feel like, and it seems like MMOs don't even come near it. It's really the capitalism, I think. They're made by companies whose prime concern is making money - not forming community or enabling beautiful experiences.

[@inquisitorlev8456]

​@@thegreatdream8427 You are correct, but we can't blame people for liking what they like (not that you are). JSH, for example, likes a valid solo play option. Asmongold likes challenging endgame (raids, etc.), as another example. Both of these influencers, who I like and I think make many great points, do not just speak for themselves, but for whole swaths of potential customers. However, that doesn't mean that some of the things they promote, and some of things that are profitable, do not adversely effect the roleplay and immersion of MMORPGs. JSH here makes some of these arguments (to his credit). MMORPGs are, or at least should be, about immersion in a shared world. What they have become (largely) is a series of systems and game modes, tailored to the preferences of different players, which directly works against shared immersion. They do not unify, as they once did, adventurers in a world, but instead divide a community into their little sectioned preferences--not competing factions or guilds, as in the days of yore, but divisions based on what amounts to engaging mini games loosely strung together under the banner of a title. Ironically, the thing that makes them more money, is the thing that devalues their games. What can be done about this? Well, we can support indie developers, support small games with a more cohesive focus, and withdraw our support from gaming titans that have forgotten what an MMORPG could and should be. Money, for good or ill, is the only language they speak.

[@thegreatdream8427]

@@inquisitorlev8456 I have to disagree with you that the sectioning into lots of mini games is a problem. It's only a problem if it leads to people not socializing with one another. More than anything else, an MMO is a shared world in which people socialize and achieve goals together; if it's made of a bunch of separate games each of which is deeply intertwined with all the others (like crafting minigames in which have you buy inputs from some people and sell outputs to others), it still would create the feeling of a cohesive world, particularly if it encourages making personal relationship with the people you're trading with. Actually, I think you could have a cohesive world if all these minigames are actually entirely separate games, like casual mobile games or the like! It's the fact that they connect people together and make them interdependent that matters. I actually have wanted, my entire life, to make an MMO, but I am in the typical beginner position of no money, no team, no player base, limited skill, but lots and lots of time. My plan is to make lots of individual casual games as a sort of portfolio and learning exercises, each of which could also double as a crafting system for a particular type of item in the eventual MMO, and then gradually link them together (so that players of each are embedded in economic webs with all the others), and use revenue from them to fund eventually developing the actual RPG end of the game. I do want to build a cohesive community through these casual games as well, so I'm open to any suggestions you might have about how to tie them together enough that they feel like a unified world despite being nominally separate. (A sense of geography might help - a player of the weavers' guild game might "live in the same place" as a player of the tailors' guild game and they could have incentives trade more with one another as a result of being neighbors, perhaps?)

[@inquisitorlev8456]

@@thegreatdream8427 First, I wish you the best of luck in creating an MMORPG, and any other games, if that is where your path leads. Gaming develop certainly needs more creative thinkers, who are not afraid to push back against the status quo. I would say that if you were doing a web chart on a white board, the center of that should be "shared immersion." Branching out, would be things like interdependence, which would branch into cooperation, and competition. This is where you hit the first rub, because players who essentially play MMOs for a solo option are not particularly fond of these three things, at least if they cannot opt out of them, and that is where the artificial separation begins. In my opinion, the next great game will not focus on systems to master, but on a world to inhabit. It will not focus on the preferences of disparate players, but on the human commonalities found in escapism. If an MMO is your ultimate goal, perhaps your portfolio could show a genuine passion for such concepts, and show work that is more like poetry, and less like a spreadsheet. Anyway, that is my 2 cents, and again I wish you the best of luck.

[@thegreatdream8427]

@@inquisitorlev8456 "More like poetry, and less like a spreadsheet" - that is the perfect way of summing up what I want to create! (I actually am a poet, too, btw!) Thanks for your support and your advice!

[@calvinwilson3617]

"Fresh start servers" did someone say boosty boys? Seriously though tbc boost killed my legitimate excitement

[@Cooil1]

Same. The old world is completely empty...

[@vongodric]

I played wow classic out of curiosity because never had the chance to play when it was current. And I have to say I liked it. I liked retail as well - and I do think "perfect" wow would need to backtrack some changes towards classic. But not all in classic was good either. So it is a balancing act. Personally I would LOVE to see classic SWTOR server. I don't like how easy the game has become, how irrelevant levelling process is nor amount of RNG in it. If they released classic server I would jump on it right away.

[@GodwynDi]

That would be amazing. I would play through the Imperial Agent storyline for the 4th time with no regrets.

[@daviouscram2101]

I wanted to get into wow, but I just couldn't get into later expansions. Meanwhile I got the complete dreadnaught set for my warrior in classic.

[@fieryphoenix82]

I like WoW prior to losing the skill tree. I don't remember the xpac it happened in (I think cataclysm?) but the game was just unrecognizable to me from that point. I tried to go back a few times and got bored within days. WotLK was my favorite xpac, if they make a classic server for that version of the game I'll probably join it.

[@Xerrash]

For me personally it's the simplicity and impact, Frost Shock in classic wow was just so satisfying. It's definitely an old way of designing games which i think a lot of people miss.

[@melovesblues]

I was watching this on TV and came here because how real-life connected this is. The problem of community fragmantation in real life, is basicly one of the most important reasons we have so many people in depression. You see if you are living in a first world country, the chances are you are not living in the city you grew up. You are not working with the people you went to high schol or university with. You parents or sibling are most likely not living nearby. So the community you grew up with, is actually really fragmented, scattered. This was not really a thing in our world like until last 30-50 years, before that even migrations from small cities to big cities, or to another countries were done as communities, not by random individuals. What this situation creates is that, ones accomplishments in life, have no meaningful feedback in them. You may have solved a big crisis singlehandedly at work, but as soon as you leave that workplace, no one cares, as in no one in your vicinity even knows it. That is exact opposite situation where Josh explained how "you know you did something, but you also know others do know you did it". You did something, and but you know, no one that "really" matters in your life, knows and care for it. So you have absolute no meaningful fulfillment out of it. Now compare that to someone who is part of a community, such as your granddad who worked as carpenter and made kitchens. He did it most likely where he grew up, or nearby. He did it working with people from his neighbourhood. His wife or doughter came to say hi at launch break. So when he builds a new kitchen, his family saw it, he friends saw it, his neighbourhood saw it. And he knows, when someone visits the house that he installed the kitchen, the owner of the house will mention him as the carpenter. This difference has immense impact in a persons psychological well-being.

[@GnarledStaff]

Exactly. I think people crave this sense of community in their games since they've lost it in their personal lives.

[@thomac]

Great video. I arrive late to the party, but I want to spend a paragraph talking about something: how automatic party finders/instance queues and auction halls changed MMORPGs. Remember the days of spamming the game chat in order to find people to group up with or trade with? It was a pain in the ass, and a colossal time expenditure. But also it forced you to interact with other players and, for the sake of saving time the next time, add them to your contact list so you can play or trade again another time. You were forced down the path of meeting new people... the price? hours of tedious LFG, WTB, WTS and other acronyms spammed in various chat windows. When they began automating of these processes with auction systems, party finders, and so on... that was a great time saver so players had a chance to focus on actual content. I bet most people cheered. But guess what? The reality is that for many they might as well play singleplayer, cause the other guys in the dungeon could be NPCs for how much interaction there is: pretty much zero, maybe a greeting at the start... and maybe some heated argument if the bosses are hard to beat, cause there's always someone that has to be a dick about it. A lot of us met our online friends in those awful chats, spending time that would feel a waste as a working adult... however... the feeling of being in a living virtual world is gone together with the time wasting. Realistically, if I connect at 8pm and go to sleep at 11pm, I'd like to spend 3 hours playing, not 2h trying to group up and 1h failing the instance. But at the same time... a younger me would have never reached out to anybody if I had these tools. Plenty of introverts and socially anxious people play online as a refuge, and need a little nudge to connect to others. I wonder how it works today. I feel like there aren't many chances in game. It's pretty much all autopiloted in modern mmorpgs. Which has definitely their advantages, but also a sense of detachment from what the genre was. Also, those awful open pvp games with constant griefing, or bosses with no instances (hello lineage 2) led to epic guild/clan wars to control who's going to farm the raid boss. Mad fun and mad rage depending if you won or lost. Not really a healthy dynamic for the game, but it was yet another element of how the game felt more of a massively multiplayer world than just a server to level up and do dungeons with some randoms. I know I can't go back to those tedious systems but at the same time, I feel we've lost something.

[@x_Skeleton_x]

Looking good with the haircut Josh. Excellent vid as always.

[@BartVlogs]

bro, this guys should look good even bald

[@shaman666]

I 100% understood and agreed to all your points when you showed the Whirlwind Axe

[@mosselyn5081]

When I think about what made Classic WoW enjoyable for me, it was that sense of community you mentioned and greater simplicity. Not simplicity in the number of abilities, but simplicity in the encounter designs. Retail WoW's M+ dungeon encounters always have 15 different things going on at once; Classic's have...a couple. On the other hand, Classic had more, not fewer, abilities, and I preferred that. Just the community feeling isn't enough, though: Lotro's legacy servers didn't attract me at all because they didn't restore the classes to an earlier state.

[@TenaciousJ2323]

While classic did have a lot of abilities, many of them were situational. The majority of buttons were things that fit the "read the room, learn the fight, and use my ability when I can see it being relevant" dynamic he mentions.

[@Hero-oz9gx]

@@TenaciousJ2323 absolutely. this is why i love pvp.

[@auranimm]

I think it's also important to make the distinction between aesthetic choices and mechanical choices clear. I'd love an MMO that gives me hundreds and hundreds of options for my hairstyle, but I'm fine with just a few skills. I'd rather have 10 skills I can tint with 100 colours than 1000 different skills. You can "skin" a fireball with ice and it easily becomes a frostbolt. More choice, but not a lot more stress.

[@apex403]

Oh man.... analysis paralysis, my number 1 enemy on table top war games.... I've clocked out so many times because I spent 30+ minutes on a single turn. Oh and hats off to the Lucid Nightmare mount reference... I was so happy when i got it, then found out it couldnt fly lol. (Which I understand now you can equip something on a mount to make it fly ? I dont know, I havent played since BFA)

[@zeffmalchazeen3429]

same experience dude, my ISP was wack at that time and i had to keep redoing the puzzle. It was awful indeed. About flying, when BFA started, they changed it to a flying mount depending on the zone, no special items needed. This mount was my go to mount for my shadow priest, cause I do not like the owl thingy

[@Rylatar]

There isn't such equipment but the unicorns got flight ability with Shadowlands prepatch.

[@destnardanderion1150]

Thank you for the video. it is very important that you mentioned the balance between content and the social part of the game. A lot of games have been releasing classic games lately. but unfortunately they also lack this balance. Because there is little content in them. in those days we were drawn into these games by this social part of the MMO, we all clung to guilds, clans, communities, and what to do was no longer important. Games have evolved, content has come, the social component has declined. But the funniest moment is that I do not remember the moment when both sides were in balance. the feeling that at the click of your fingers MMOs have become solo games with MMO elements.

[@Snoozeknights]

100% old mmos have a better feeling to them I personally never played rs when younger. A while back I played osrs and I had a blast. It being simpler doesn't mean its going to be worse it's like you said it gives a better sense of community. My favorite part about playing silkroad online was grinding with the same people and chatting with them it was so cool. I really do miss that part in mmos they personally feel different now. Cheers

[@rickroll9705]

Depends. If you play osrs due gameplay you will find it horrid. If you want to fall into an addicting procedures and parasocial emotional traps you might enjoy it!

[@Lyki27]

I constantly go back and putz around on Destiny 1. Its always interesting going back to the Tower and getting invites to raids, sparrow racing, custom PVP matches. I had some new players, NEW Destiny 1 players, who just wanted someone to help them through some story content. I gladly went through with them while completely obliterating everything in my path and was just like, "Dont worry, you'll get here too. It just takes time. Dont quit, dont worry about grinding everything and just have fun Playing the game." I think a lot of people forget to have fun sometimes.

[@gantref9202]

I finally bit the bullet and started WoW TBC a week or two ago and I have to say for me it's more how the system and classes have not been homogonized yet. I enjoy the massive spike in power you can get in groups because classes have amazing buffs for one another. I enjoy the free form talent point trees more than the "select 1 from 3" options of modern wow. Sure classic isn't as balanced as modern wow but there is a lot of character in old school wow that's just missing from modern wow.

[@dannyboygoldfish926]

Retail Wow has small ugly island meta syndrome and Wow Vanilla has large open world with beautiful landscapes, that could be a reason why. Also Retail Wow has bad story line while the old games had Arthas the Lich king for example that made players more exited because they knew them from playing the older Warcraft 3 game. Retail has nothing on Wow Vanilla.

[@nekoschar6170]

If only blizzard didn't absolutely butcher the launch so many bots so many bots and so much greed for a 10+ year old expansion

[@Gekk0e]

@@nekoschar6170 I would have absolutely loved TBC if the launch and prepatch hadnt been butchered, it felt like the only reason they butchered prepatch and made it 2 weeks only was so that they could force even more players to buy a boost I was hoping to level a few classes in the large boost of people doing dungeons instead of just boosting with mages, but I only ended up leveling my resto shaman for TBC due to the strict time table and the low population of people running dungeons instead of just boosting with mages

[@mdlittle5466]

You might want to check out City of Heroes, a game that provided near limitless character creation choices and customization yet possessed rigid enough archetype concept models that you could look at another player and tell by their archetype alone what they will most likely be doing for the group. There are no 'legacy servers' for the game because the game (despite it's updates) still remained close to how it originally played when it first came out. A live server right now, City of Heroes: Homecoming, I think makes for a shining example as to how an agency can maintain and update a product without resorting to extreme changes and expansions which inevitably water down the client base.

[@voidgods]

Having analysis paralysis when choosing which game to play, feels bad man

[@supasneaks]

I like simple and I like smaller numbers. People always said Paladin was super boring because it was mainly auto-attacks. Ironically, that is the exact reason I enjoyed them so much. I like the fantasy of my character. I like getting the gear and _really_ feeling it's impact. That 2-hander weapon I worked so hard for? I get to watch it strike my opponents over and over. I get excitement from seeing it crit and connect with the enemy. I can _feel_ the power of my weapon and see the impact/difference that it makes. It makes the pieces of my gear feel important to me and that is what I really enjoy. I'm not looking to always have an ability to use or some perfect rotation. I want to go on my adventure, find and be rewarded with weapons and armor that make my character feel stronger. I want my characters skill with a blade to be complimented by his magical abilities. I don't want that weapon to serve solely as a stat booster for damage that doesn't come from the strength of his swings. Once fancy and filler abilities start being added and overshadow the weapon is when I start to lose interest.

[@SkimoStories]

I love that WoW is SO deeply entrenched in mmo culture, we have seen the cumulative adoption of "classic" as the title for legacy/vanilla servers just because blizzard decided that's what they're called. Before the Wow Classic announcement, there was NO mention of any of these servers being called "classic" on ANY game. Now they're ALL classic games. Oldschool runscape is now colloquially "classic runescape" etc.

[@jedimasterpickle3]

This was a really interesting video. The main MMO I play is FFXIV which probably is never going to get a legacy/classic server. 1.0 is rather famous for being terrible at the beginning, and when asked if there were any sort of plans for a legacy server, the director simply replied "N I G H T M A R E"

[@bminus7377]

That double pendulum looks like a sweet boss idea.

[@SkipsTinyBeard]

I had some of my best MMORPG memories in CoH. The community was awesome. From people hosting costume parties in Paragon to running missions that required help from players just to travel there. It was cool to see both the creativity of the developer and the player.

[@daltonhendrix5135]

First video I've seen by this guy, subbing though because I like psychology and science intwined with mmo sociology. Also all those ps2 titles behind him are s class 👏 🙌 👌.

[@joshdodson555]

Bro, love the videos. The thing I am most impressed about is your speech ability. You never stutter or have to think about your next sentence. It feels planned and well thought out. BZ.

[@DiabloDBS]

I never wanted Classic. But if they ever did it i hope for them to then take another path. They could still do it after WotLK. They could still say "ok guys these are the 3 releases after which it gone downhill" and then make somethign new out of them. I always wished for an ability to play a character as freely as possible without overly complicating things. While i loved skilltree theorycrafting it wasn't about min-maxing but about how i might be able to play while still doing what i want and not going the BiS route. Being statically bound to a faction, especially as Druid ligth RP player was kind of annoying in the past but with BFA became horrible from a RP standpoint. And so i always wished that languages were something that could be learned in some way and reputation, even with the other major faction, could be gained similarly. And even if each of these tasks was on the level of Insane in the Membrane i would've likely still have done them. But instead we got a time gated 1.12 release that locked certain items away until 1.12 was hit. I mean sure even if you know all the tactics in MC you still need to reach the dps / hps required to not run into enrages or other mechanics. Wait .. did we buff classes significantly between the MC release and 1.12? Surely not... i mean we nerfed rogue twice but other than that... ? Wait we buffed everyone else instead? Mmh... Anyway .. i hope Blizz finally wakes up....

[@LordMidichlorian]

11:40 Yeah. In a FC discord I once commented how I'd like some more effects to fill the different mudra combinations and I got the answer that why if I wouldn't use them all.

[@Unf0rget]

A lot of what seem like obvious upgrades in modern mmo obliterate the coincidental feel brought about by those older systems. If any good is to come of classic servers it will be the hope that developers will start to ask if those old systems can be modernized while keeping their community growing function. Older combat is less involved yet also more involved. Fewer buttons but obvious outcomes for how well you use them. Play a warlock on classic and try to abuse the pet health regen and the order of your abilities and you'll quickly notice that you can save yourself loads of eating time through when and how you deploy your spells. I want systems that capture this planning game, that constantly chanegs with better gear and new spells/ranks. Its old but damn it modern games just dont get near that level of involvement, especially not wow. Mash whatever and play forever. The spells are cooler, the buttons more interesting, yet resources have no importance and gear even less in the leveling. An adventure was turned into an obligatory preamble.

[@merzarino]

This explains more than just gaming but also about life, such a well-made video.

[@frasermanley9903]

One of the things I absolutely love about FF14 is the bustling population. Everything I'm doing there are other people there. And this was before the big boom in popularity. It's just even better now.

[@mrbigglezworth42]

Why is a very good question to ask for anything, reasoning out your justification for wanting to play an older variant of a game can help you decide if that's what you truly want or if it's merely portions of the older system you want back.

[@hishammor8490]

Legacy servers are comfort food, IMO. They offer a safe and known variable in your life that you can defer to and invoke feelings you are mostly familiar with. They are great, but like comfort food, you can't just keep playing them indefinitely without change.

[@Mvb91]

People are still playing lots of chess these days.

[@MahalGC]

@@Mvb91 Chess is definitely a timeless game that has become such a cultural staple. Even thousands of years from now there will still be people playing it.

[@V2ULTRAKill]

@@MahalGC well yeah its not a solved game yet

[@AfrinonM]

@@Mvb91 I think chess is a bit different because the difficultly, the strategy, and every move made will change based on who the opponent is. Contrast that to an MMO, which are mostly PvE and the enemies have set attack patterns. Strategies will eventually be developed which work 99% of the time if everyone does their thing right. And if it's a legacy server which never changes, then there's never a need to develop anything new once strategies have been developed for each dungeon/boss. I guess what I'm saying is, Chess stays fresh due to its PvP aspect. Legacy servers get stale because, by definition, they cannot change.

[@dweep9546]

@@V2ULTRAKill humans aren't capable of solving it

[@Quothnor]

This hits at home for me. I grew up playing Tibia. Tibia being a MMO that came out in the 90s had a small quantity of items which everyone knew, places and the engine is extremely simple, so you know your limitations and whatnot. I knew everything about Tibia: what worked, what didn't work, what's good, what isn't good, where to go, where not to go. I played that game for 13 years and knew everything about it. It was the game that also made me realize that I want familiarity in my games. Whenever I try a new game, especially a MMORPG, everything feels so overwhelming for someone one was used to know everything about the game they played. I've learned to stop worrying, let myself go and learn as I go. Eventually, the familiarity returns once you have learned the ropes.

[@DaleStrife]

Paper Mario: The simplicity point is definitely a thing for me. Games like Paper Mario start you off doing 1 damage, and if you get the active jump press correct, you get to double your damage. Very impactful and simple. Makes you feel good without bogging your brain down with padded numbers.

[@nathanaeltendam4874]

Very good job doing the opening narration in a single take. That was a lot to say without messing up.

[@Cilfaen]

Oof that "Go and fish for the next.. 6 months" got me good. I have spent at least that long fishing across my runescape accounts.

[@WuxianTec]

It was great playing WoW Classic again. I didn't have any illusions that it would actually replace the retail experience for me, since it lacks a lot of the comfort functions that I enjoy in the current game. Transmogrification and Dungeon queues to be specific. What I really missed was the way the classes felt. It's not that there were less abilities, for some classes there are actually more in classic than on retail. What I missed was the class identity. The fact that the class you play fulfills a certain role that no other class could fill. Some mechanics I really missed, they were way more engaging than the current "build resource, spend resource" that most classes have been homogenized to. Especially in a state of the game where you can quickly level a class to max level, I don't get why most classes have to feel similar.

[@olek.9398]

There is no fun in playing a "solved" game, at least for me. Once the perfect way to do something has become common enough to be the standers, you are just executing the motions someone else dictated. Every release of new content can only delay this state for so long... Until it gets stale.

[@ToyokaX]

This is exactly my feeling too. I think it some cases it also extends to modern games. "Why should I do this achievement if so many other people have done it? It no longer feels satisfying". I think that the modern way of game design has created this thought process for many players where they don't feel satisfied with games because those things have been done in one way or another already in other games. It's likely why it's harder to get players interested in new games, even if they are good or better than what's already out there. It's the feeling of "treading down the same path".

[@1un4cy]

This is why I don't enjoy path of exile. It's either steamroll with someone else's tried&true build or struggle with your own mishmash

[@ToyokaX]

@@1un4cy Indeed. The game caters a lot too the people who are dedicated and put a lot of time and effort into understanding it (which is okay in my opinion, to a certain extent), but that also puts the community in a state where they are always trying to follow the best meta or the latest flavor of the month. Hell, even the most recent update/league was patched to specifically target "following the meta" by changing some core designs of the game (such as how flasks work) and make things even more difficult (and thus, more "following the meta") than before, just in a different way. I don't mind difficulty, but punishment is a different story. I like how Asmongold explains it in one of his recent videos where he says that "the moment I feel like the game is giving me negative progress [ie. removing xp after dying], that's when I stop playing" and it's true. It's painful to love progress in any meaningful amount and I think dying and losing XP is one of the more annoying things in games like PoE.

[@Sarackosmo]

I get what your saying but it holds no relevance to any MMORPG or most games in general. The moment the internet became accessible is the moment there is an expectation to watch/read up on boss mechanics and that's what the vast majority does. It's also the reason why the older you get you'll find less games to enjoy as you already went through most iterations of a certain game mechanic. I imagine retail WoW is a brilliant game if your a teenager exploring online gaming for the first time.

[@alexandrumarin8981]

I get your point, but I myself prefer "solved" game. I like it because it is safe and fair. If you do your part well, you get consistant results and sometimes it can be extremely fun to fool around with meme builds or more gimmicky stuff.

[@augustday9483]

I really enjoy the gameplay loop of the 1-60 leveling experience in classic WoW. Going to a new area, doing a series of minor quests with a few quest chains, getting a new level once or twice a play session, then things usually get capped off by a dungeon which serves as a zone's climax. You do the dungeon at least once, maybe a few times if you're trying to get a specific item, then you move on to new zones. There's a very strong and consistent feeling of progression and character growth as you're constantly getting new gear, learning new abilities, and seeing new places. I find it a very compelling experience compared to endgame, where growth slows down immensely and the grind sets in. Another nice thing about leveling is that you don't need to worry so much about optimal builds, best-in-slot lists and the meta. You level fast enough that you will replace any gear soon anyways, and a lot of good gear is guaranteed from quests, so there's (usually) no point wasting time grinding for specific pieces. You just play at whatever pace you feel comfortable with and you'll always make satisfying forward progress. Also, in most MMOs the starter zones are unique for different race choices and sometimes classes. This means that you get a questing experience that caters to the specific flavor of your character. This is an important part of the roleplay experience which is almost always missing from endgame, where class/race-specific content is very rare. Playing an alt through each starter zone in Classic WoW is a lot of fun just because you get so much flavor in those quests.

[@overlordzetta7410]

Can't wait to see asmons reaction to the axe.

[@ToyokaX]

TRUUUU DOOD

[@Daxterous]

THERE IT IS DOOD

[@ToadimusPrime]

The one that I agree with the most is ability/loadout overload as the game goes on. Having fewer options is often better. Just look at God of War (2016). A game stripped of complicated mechanics and features...lead to one of the greatest games ever made.

[@schenanigans]

I’ve been playing classic wow for 2 years, I played it back when it was new, and I am just as addicted as I was then. I play so differently now, so I get to experience parts I never did before, and I get to enjoy the social aspects way more - I have met really good friends and even my boyfriend through classic

[@gregd.8366]

Great topic and analysis! I want to put a request in for a worst MMO episode on Phantasy Star Online 2. The old Phantasy Star console RPG games on the Sega Genesis are still among my top favorite video games of all time and I'm wondering if it is worth checking out the current offerings in the IP. Thanks for all of your amazing work!

[@Spike-xv1ts]

this pendulum graphik was oddly satisfying

[@JishExists]

Loved the little double pendulum graph visual. Very interesting.

[@s1os2s3]

I do not like Classic WoW. I did play it but my sweet spot was MoP/WoD quests and class design. If WoD wasnt cut off and had such a severe draught of content it would have been my favorite expansion. If WoD had Legion levels of content it would have been wonderful. P.S: Yes, I am a Warlock and I want Kil'jaeden's Cunning and Soul Swap back. I cannot see WoD Demo back since we've gave birth to a class called Demon Hunter.

[@bswearingen]

MoP was an excellent expansion that is commonly massively underrated, especially when it was active. Best expansion since of the post cataclysm bunch

[@WakoDoodle]

Went back to OS Runescape and all the memories flooded back! Although now I can see all the makes I used to do, thinking I was thinking ahead; but rather slowing my gameplay. For example I used to carry my ore every single time I got a full inventory, no matter what ore it was; meaning most of the time I was just running back and forth; where I could of just bought the ore from the GE and sold the more pricy ore instead! I know it won't last forever, but its nice to see how far I've coming since I first started; not just as a gamer, but as a person and a new way of thinking.

[@MichaelFord]

Unlike Sampson, he still has power even with a haircut

[@travism.3594]

That's because 90% of his power is in his accent

[@travism.3594]

The other 10% is in the mug

[@BartVlogs]

He has so much power that I would never EVER let my wife get within 10 miles radius of him

[@MichaelFord]

@@travism.3594 lol. Well played, sir

[@AlexCole09]

@@BartVlogs Never mind my wife, I would never EVER let MYSELF get withing 10 miles of radius of him

[@chainsmokingpeepo]

This might sound silly and this video was posted 10 months ago, but your description of analysis paralysis was really helpful for me. I recently played Grim Dawn and I spent-no joke; 30 hours redoing the first hour of the game with all the class combinations. I felt awful about all the choices I had to make and never heard anyone describe the term before. I had no idea what was happening but over the course of 2 days replaying the beginning and questioning my choices- I just got overwhelmed, a little depressed and stopped playing. Basically. I appreciate the explanation that it's a common thing that can happen. Even though I'm sure I took it to an unhealthy level. Great content, Josh. As Always

[@nydra9912]

Ehhh.. I feel like the downside to having the same stuff to follow as other people therefore making a community to find others that have the same interests as you do is that toxic people will find the same people and I feel like toxicity has a longer lasting effect and grows faster than the other communities except probably RP.

[@FunkiestChickenlawl]

A lot of what you said really resonated with me playing spiral knights. It’s an mmo-lite that has barely changed since it’s 2012 release, but it might actually be a benefit to the game. Since I’ve played the game so long I know everything about it and can act as a mentor to others, but if an entire new tier of weapons was added and a new endgame with a higher difficulty; I would have to learn the game all over again, and have to sink Months of time back into the game to get all of my gear upgraded There’s comfort when you know everything about a game and it’s consistent.

[@qulien7123]

Josh: "Too many choices will lead to analysis paralysis" PoE skill tree: "Let me introduce myself..."

[@TheInternetHelpdeskPlays]

I remember back in the day. I paid for Everquest before it was popular! I still remember the first time I made a character, an Erudite Magician. When I was low level and grinding level 2 mobs in Toxxulia forest, I met someone who was level 40, he gave me a weapon and totem that he was too high a level to use. We talked and as I levelled up I joined him in the odd raiding party. Then they released the expansion packs. I was a college student so didn't have the money to buy them, my friend did so we ended up spending less and less time on the same path. By the time the 11th expansion came out, we hadn't actually spoken in years. Then it went free to play and all the expansions were included, I stopped playing. I left my character with the totem and weapon in a crate ready to give to another erudite magician in Toxxulia forest. I've never met one.

[@Gravewhisper]

I tried WoW Classic, wasn't for me, but the first 20 hours or so were a lot of fun, when there were hundreds of players in the same zone. Until you had to compete with these 100 players for a single quest mob, that's when it stopped being fun pretty fast.

[@Sherolox]

That's why groups exist lol. I remember, I played on a Classic Private Server a few years ago, I think it was Nostalrius and the Undead Starting Zone was bursting at the seems, but someone in chat invited me to a group and as soon as we were a group, getting the required kills together went a lot faster.

[@Gravewhisper]

@@Sherolox there were group waiting lines for certain quest mobs with a spawn timer of 15minutes or more. Even in groups things can take forever and you always have trolls trying to snipe the targets so that no-one can complete the quest.

[@jz3488]

That isn't the "classic wow experience" that is the "typical blizzard launch day experience." If you logged in to classic today you wouldn't have that problem.

[@evandavis5223]

I only played EQ for a year or so but it felt like there was an inverse relationship between the number of gameplay paths available and the amount of skills and abilities at your disposal. People pretty much knew where to go and what mobs to kill at any level but the amount of skills you could train was enormous and some of the different classes abilities were capable of things people wouldn't even think of putting in a game today.

[@firalia]

My favourite thing about FFXIV is that it _is_ linear and everyone's experienced the story together. No matter what little sub communities show up, we all have that in common. It's a shared experience, and the overarching community is closer for it. The game grows and changes like every other MMO, but that is a constant, and it helps you feel like you know the game quite well.

[@mccoyrj452]

14 also does a good job of exposing new players like myself to veterans constantly when doing dungeons, trials, etc. so not only do we share the story experience, by and large some do skip it via boosts, but we interact and learn the game together.

[@miavelvet]

If you call THAT a shared experience then you don't need to play mmos. You can play any linear singleplayer game and say that "everyone experienced the same". FF14 is horrible online game, it is just anti coop till the end game.

[@miavelvet]

@@mccoyrj452 you mean "veteran players run to the end of dungeon in seconds killing everything while you trying to watch cutscene and then realizing other people are hating you for being slow" is a good job? ok

[@mccoyrj452]

@@miavelvet Definitely something that can happen but rarely does. In all the dungeons I have run so far that happened exactly 1 time. And no I wouldn’t call it flawless but yes the story is something that is a shared experience. Is it for everyone? No, but for a vast majority that is a connective tissue. Is it similar to a single player game? Yes, but that is the point. That is leaning into your strengths and SE is very good at that kind of storytelling. Plenty of fun moments happen constantly to create those player moments. Random s tank hunting parties coming down, and yes veterans coming in and explaining trials and their mechanics.

[@DEUS_VULT_INFIDEL]

As long as MMO worlds change and developers and investors clash over how the game ought to progress classic servers will have a place, whether large or small. You may never be able to go "home", but if you look fondly back upon your time there visiting your hometown as it was can be its own memorable experience.

[@SillyGirlKisser74]

tbh I never played vanilla wow, when I heard classic was coming out I was happy because people would see the game was bad and everyone would come back to retail ... then I played classic wow and learned what a good mmorpg looks like, haven't played retail ever since

[@HallsteinI]

You had me in the first half not gonna lie 🤣

[@Tiven321]

I genuinely don't get classic WoW played a hunter to level 52 and a priest to 34 and that was probably the less fun i've ever had playing a game in my life.

[@SillyGirlKisser74]

@@Tiven321 then you would have even less fun at retail, it's just what Josh says in the video, you are a dps but nothing that you do seems to matter, you get so many ''epic'' items but they mean nothing to you classes were more unique in classic, like Paladins are dungeon tanks and warriors are raid tanks, but everyone can do everything in retail, and that makes it so no class is special at all

[@Tiven321]

@@SillyGirlKisser74Even though the current state of WoW is horrible I loved WoW during MoP and Legion and im 100% sure Shadowlands would more enjoyable for me than Classic hate not having dungeons finder and also cosmetics matter more to me than actual stats in mmos that's why im loving FFXIV right now it feels like a less grindy retail with better storytelling.

[@SillyGirlKisser74]

@@Tiven321 I also really liked Legion! each class felt unique and I genuenly leveled up characters just to see their weapons and the zone that worked as your quarters, really sad when they threw that out for the heart of azeroth

[@eldenmox5525]

I had an idea for an mmo that the progression would be going deeper into a never ending world below. Something like a hell or it’s a post apocalyptic future where the earth is just a huge city as far down as you go. Each level would require certain criteria to be met for an individual and also the server. As you go deeper you would need more powerful players to clear the next stage and you would need to help other players get to your strength to join you in taking the next level. The world below could consist of castles, keeps, and outposts that need to be conquered to reach the door of the next zone. If left unchecked the enemy could slowly regain control so the top players would need to keep an eye on the front line from time to time if they are off doing other things.

[@Justanothermusicnerdxo]

Classic servers are good for some warm fuzzies and member berries. But time has proven that they are ultimately short lived, and likely unprofitable for most games. If a game exists under the promise that it will never get new content and always be stuck in a time period, people will get bored the moment they exhaust most of that content.

[@stejclfc]

Thanks for articulating why classic games arent just nostalga. I knew it wasnt the case but could never explain why in a 'debate' or discussion.

[@paneth8466]

"Sweet! legacy servers! Now i can play the game how it was when it came out!" *Awhile later* "So..much..grinding..so...much walking..." I enjoyed my time in WoW back when it came out and up to Wrath, can't say I'd do it all again though. Back when WoW first started I played for a few months and thought about just quitting but I ended up helping some newer players in the game and friended them after. I ended up joining a PvE guild that was just a bunch of players having fun with the game, no real stipulations just have fun. I ended up inviting the new players I had helped in and later became an officer in that guild. I was part of that same guild for 5 years. Then it became part of an alliance that does hardcore pve and after a while the guild leader felt the need to break from the alliance because raiding was all we were doing and we were not doing what we once were which was aiding newer players to enjoy the game. Drama happened due to this and the guild fell apart. I stuck around for another year or so in the guild which was more or less empty before leaving myself. The only reason I enjoyed WoW in the first place was the community we had built up around us, after that was gone the game felt kinda empty. Between that and many of the changes I just ended up leaving because it was no longer fun and the player base had shifted and was less communal and more trollish. I don't think going to classic servers for me would do anything sadly because it was never about the game itself but the people who made the game more enjoyable.

[@rickroll9705]

Play games for its gameplay. Else you are just falling into an emotional trap.

[@bplup6419]

The multiplayer tutorial cave in Everquest didn't come along until way later. The original tutorial was an offline instance- your starting location was based on race, class and deity.

[@Silmeris]

You mentioned Ragnarok Online last video and this is also a great reason why Ragnarok Online private servers are so unbelievably, incredibly popular. It's a cozy game filled with nostalgia, and people consistently want to return to that. It made a lot of people's childhoods and created so many good memories, and being able to go back and know what all the classes do and where to hunt, what gear you want and where to find it- it's so unbelievably cozy and wonderful.

[@SorarikoMotone]

unless you play renewal servers that changed a lot of stuff in it like, ngl - i like all the new upgrades to classes - but i'll be lying if i didn't say that leveling became more annoying in renewal.

[@Silmeris]

@@SorarikoMotone They massacred Smiths and for that I'll never forgive them. It was so clear they had no clue what to do about smiths so they just deleted the class and made them a weird dex based caster class for.. some.. reason. I was hype for mechanic until I played it and went ew what the heck is this.

[@MrCaradras]

I have exactly that overwhelming feeling whenever I log from Classic WoW into Retail WoW. In Classic I have my raids, some quest (chains), or reps I want to do. In Retail it's... everything.

[@sylva_c137]

As someone who's been playing MMO's for around 16-17 years, I'll give a few examples : I played Maplestory for many years (& other mmos inbetween) but when that game got a massive overhaul (lvling got ridiculously easy, all time previously invested felt wasted,etc...) I lost interest. Would I play a classic version before said patch? No, I've had my fill,had good times & I've moved on. Did everything I wanted/could in the game,it has nothing left to offer (nor do I have the time to invest in 3%/hr or less grinds). I tried out WoW classic (played Wotlk in the past) to see what the buzz was about, not for me but I can understand the appeal. Probably because I had no connection to classic to begin with. A personally successful (temporary) example would be oldschool Runescape, I'm playing it because the current client looks alien to me (aesthetically speaking) and the rs3 monetisation makes me avoid it like the plague. OSRS doesn't have that,at most bonds (which I can live with). The reason I'm playing OSRS is because I never got to experience a very large chunk of the game as a kid & I've always wanted to. RS3 doesn't offer this in the same way. I'll play until I've had my fill & then move on, I'll lay my childhood MMO dream to rest and that'll be it. It's nostalgia bait & I know it,but I'll enjoy it while I can. Almost 400hours in, I think I might call it quits soon (it's the equivalent of dipping my toes in the pool in terms of my MMO game time) Other MMOs like Guildwars 1 are amazing too but don't need "classic" servers, it wouldn't change much (except loot nerfs/skills). There are many reasons people would & do enjoy classic servers but it's only temporary. I for one am glad it's an option at all,but, not every game needs it. There's more to say/explain/add but I don't want to write half an essay here. Have a good one Josh :)

[@Stolzen-eu8qx]

I have been discussing the multi choice conundrum with my coworker (i.e spending hours looking at netflix content rather than watching any of it) I honestly didn't know it had a name, analysis paralysis. Thanks Josh

[@lostcrusader8053]

I was one of the few who seen this classic server dying down coming. The problem with the idea is that if the game can't bring anything new on the table after 6+ months of playing, what is there to invest if you've already achieved by the time you got to max level and have all the best gear? Make an alt? I'm sure that alt will eventually end the same way as the main one. A fresh classic may work for those who either want to re-live the events or compete for some one-time items. But I don't think it will work in a long run if they don't add some additional contents that makes it feel "fresh."

[@MaximumCarter]

I appreciate the uploads in 4k, I want to see every pixel of that mug collection.

[@Keijikrall]

Because with literally every other game you can just play it again.

[@thepracticalblade9013]

The CoD Map PAck comparison was spot on. I actually remember uninstalling the map packs because so many people DIDN'T have them, and I was sick of seeing the same players over and over.