Southwest and FedEx Near Crash in Austin

[@pilot-debrief]

Southwest NEVER should have been cleared for takeoff. It doesn't matter what the controller assumed about how fast Southwest moved. Based on FedEx's reported location, the tower controller should have told Southwest to continue holding. When he didn't do that, he could have saved the day by directing FedEx to go around and he didn't. They got lucky.

[@toddcorm9423]

ATC Instructor guy here. I appreciate your comments about SWA moving quickly and all the controller was trying to do was we call a “squeeze play.” However, without knowing the waivers at Austin the controller was at fault for several reasons: 1. Even VFR, which it wasn’t, trying to push out a departure in front of a heavy on 3-mile final won’t work. 2. The controller violated the ILS Critical Area for a CAT III approach. You don’t put someone in position in front of a CAT III, unless you have specific procedures for this. 3. In the event of a Go Around, which happened here, the controller does not have the required radar separation. Heck, they didn’t even have runway separation!! Obviously this was never going to work regardless of the airlines involved.

[@allgrainbrewer10]

THANK YOU!

[@matejlieskovsky9625]

This. FedEx absolutely saved the controller from having blood on their hands. IMHO the whole US aviation needs to be reminded what "cleared to land" is supposed to mean.

[@keithzulu5014]

What everyone needs to be reminded of is that "cleared to land/take-off" is actually shorthand for "cleared to land/takeoff AT CAPTAINS DISCRETION". Since the aircraft in the AIR takes precedence over the aircraft on the ground: the SW captain was and is supposed to use the maximum discretion. He/she did not. Kelsey says it elsewhare as do many. ATC's are for taxing. Captains are for flying aircraft. This ATC had taxied the aircraft to the correct point and handed full control of the aircraft on the runway to the pilot. He absolutely did not tell and cannot tell the pilot to take off.

[@jerseyshoredroneservices225]

@@keithzulu5014 The controller gave the runway to two planes at the same time. Right?

[@omikron777]

Couldn’t have explained it better. I think Kelsey gives the advantage of doubt to TWR, but this time he’s got it wrong. Major f up from ATC. Here in Europe simultaneous landing and takeoff clearance are not used.

[@bsmith1164]

As an air traffic controller, I have to say that this was a borderline insane clearance from the tower. We have Cat 3 operations at Vancouver, where I worked for many years, and the minimum arrival/departure separation is that a departure must be AIRBORNE before the CAT 2/3 arrival is FOUR miles from touchdown. Southwest would also have been holding at the CAT 2/3 hold line, which is farther from the runway. There is zero chance that the operation would have been possible. Bizarre.

[@peetky8645]

controller needs a new job

[@DrewNorthup]

​@vibratingstring The 737 was already getting set on centerline prior to the 767 being 4 miles out, and the speeds (767 approach & 737 rotate) were different from that number. The window was still insanely narrow, so the ATC who started this thread is right.

[@DrewNorthup]

B Smith: It has been covered elsewhere that Southwest was indeed beyond the hold point, yet your conclusion still makes vastly more sense than what happened.

[@rjs62888]

My understanding is that the ils critical area should be kept clear for an inbound cat iii. Is this accurate?

[@michellemybelle1195]

I really think the Southwest pilots were oblivious to the situation even know they were told the Fed Ex plane was inbound

[@HikingBob]

I'm an ex-USAF ARFF firefighter, so while not a pilot, I spent a lot of time on runways, taxiways, etc and listening to ATC radio traffic. What I did not hear the controller say to the SWA flight was "without delay" when he cleared them to take off. Two words that could have conveyed to the SWA pilot he needed to do as SWA normally does, and move quickly. I've heard ATC give this instruction many times, either to get ground equipment off runways/taxiways, or to get aircraft out of the way of other aircraft.

[@eatdriveplay]

Unfortunately, even with that, according to other controllers who've commented, its still against the rules to give take off clearance, when another aircraft is on ILS short finals. There's not enough distance between them.

[@HikingBob]

@@eatdriveplay I agree that there were other problems, especially with spacing, but I wonder if ATC saying "without delay" would've alerted the SWA pilots to the issue, that they obviously missed, and caused them to decide to wait until FedEx landed.

[@eatdriveplay]

@@HikingBob I don’t think without delay is standard phraseology, as the taking off pilot have the rights to take their time in preparation. The tower can’t be responsible if the pilots aren’t ready… :)

[@JPSaxMan]

@Hiking Bob thank you for your service!

[@tylerfb1]

@@eatdriveplay Of course, safety of flight always lies with the pilot in command, and any clearance or command from ATC can be deviated from in that case. Putting that aside, no delay is standard and it is binding in certain situations. I don't know specific low vis rules, so in low vis no delay clearances may not be legal. In standard rules, if a pilot accepts a no delay clearance they must comply. A clearance is different than an instruction. If you were instructed to, say, exit the runway from a landing roll with no delay, you don't have to comply with that if you think it would be undue to do so. Maybe you don't want to brake that hard, and want to take the next exit, you can do so, because the landing clearance takes precedent. But if ATC says you're cleared for takeoff no delay, and you accept that, you cannot take the runway, and then stop on the runway just because you want to. If a pilot wasn't ready and needed to stop on the runway, they must decline the no delay clearance.

[@DouglasHaney]

Kelsey, great review, but as a retired Fedex captain, I can say you missed one critical system that Fedex airplanes have to improve the pilot's vision in low-visibility situations that probably played an important part in this event. Almost all Fedex airplanes have in the Captain's seat a Heads Up Displays with an Enhanced Flight Vision System (EFVS), that displays imagery in the HUD from a Forward Looking Infrared (FLIR) camera. The camera is located above the radar on the nose of the aircraft. This system greatly increases the captain's visibility in fog, smog, or smoke, especially when looking at an aircraft from the rear when looking at the engine exhaust. I don't know for sure, but I would bet that the Fedex captain ended up seeing the Southwest airplane in his HUD using the EFVS.

[@cd431]

I’m also pretty sure that TCAS does not give Resolution Advisories below 500 ft. They’d have possibly seen the other aircraft on TCAS but would not have gotten guidance commands.

[@micostuffusa6275]

Low vis ops and it didn’t trigger the ATC guy to bump up his game. Complacency. 10 lbs of stuff in a 5 lb bag. 3 mile final is inside 1000 ft agl. That should have given the SWA guy a heads up. Complacency.

[@BrightBBQ]

@douglashaney I was going to say the same thing as you did about HUD and EFVS.

[@softwaresignals]

Douglas, great reply. I worked on the systems algorithms and software for "HGS" (aka HUD) at Flight Dynamics, on a a system for the 737 (Southwest Airlines customer) and C-130J in the mid-1990's. We were hearing about FLIR back then, wish I could have been the one to add that cool trick. FLIR Systems, now Teledyne FLIR, had offices almost right next door in Oregon, still do to this day. .... C-130J relied on Night Vision Goggles the crew had with a special HUD super-dimmed mode for those pilots. A FLIR system on a HUD appeared on Cadillacs 23 years ago !!!!

[@nathanarkwood1173]

Nice piece of equipment that Fedex has, but I'm willing to bet no other air carrier would allow Fedex to call their aborts. In my opinion, the FedEx pilot calling another aircraft abort needs a reality check.

[@echobeefpv8530]

Gotta say , Kelsey, the animations and airport layouts really help. The editing improvements are much appreciated !!

[@sequoiasemperviren3163]

What "improvements"?? Kelsey's animations have always been top shelf. Just like his dry sense of humor....

[@pinecedar180]

A side view would also be nice for this one

[@pinecedar180]

​@@sequoiasemperviren3163 uhh visual aids, look it up.

[@sequoiasemperviren3163]

@@pinecedar180 Do us all a favor and just go away. This is a positive comment environment.

[@pauly260]

Looks like MS 2020 on PC, max settings (nice rig, Kelsey!) with Mods.

[@dadbackwards4448]

Hello Kelsey. I have been a controller since 1985, a USAF Rapcon, and 2 FAA facilities. I understand everything you said, and it makes sense from where you sit. But, when the field is IFR, ATC has a 2 mile increasing to 3 rule. The tower controller can clear an aircraft for takeoff in front of an arriving aircraft to the same runway, but you must have 2 miles between a/c at all times, and the situation must also increase to at least 3 miles within a minute after the departure. All this being said, there is NO way the tower controller would be able to comply with our rules in this situation. Impossible with a 767 on a 3 mile final, and the 737 holding short. This may have "worked" if the 737 was already in position. The tower controller is 100% to blame. Did the FDX pilot confuse/complicate the matter, hell yes. You are absolutely right about SWA being fast, but in this situation, the tower can't even see the SWA jet, so how can you give him the benefit of the doubt, especially when we have a hard and fast line the controller crossed. I was literally stunned after listening to this after it happened.

[@mypeeps1965]

Kelsey should have just said the controller f-up instead of all the aviation speak.

[@canadave]

I know you said the tower controller was 100% to blame, but I have to think that the SWA pilots were also somewhat to blame. They heard that the incoming FedEx was on a 3-mile final. They know it's low visibility and they're going to need to do some checks once they get on the runway to make sure everything's safe for them to take off. They clearly weren't in the hurry that SWA normally is in. So, given all that, they really should've just said "thanks for the clearance, ATC, but we're going to just wait here a moment and let the guy land before we get onto the runway." As you know, there's no obligation on their part to accept the ATC's clearance and wander onto the runway, and they shouldn't have done so if they were going to take their time to get going with another AC on 3-mile final.

[@Petteri82]

I get that Kelsey doesn't want to give too much flak to ATC given that he works with them all the time but it is a bit hard to point the finger anywhere else. That was always going to be a really tight fit and on the runway you should not really need to be thinking about other planes.

[@csours]

Maybe I'm confused, I thought the controller gave SW the go-ahead when Fedex was 5 miles out?

[@davexander4142]

Wait a damn minute... a rare sighting... a SMART commenter on youtube instead of the usual troll.

[@bisbonian1183]

I flew for an airline for 27 years and 23, 000 hrs...you do a fantastic job of explaining all these incidents. I applaud your knowledge, and willingness to share it. Plus it's fun to sit back and remember.

[@giancarlogarlaschi4388]

I'm 100% with you ! We Will NEVER Forget our days in the Most Beautiful Profession there is . Trained at Webb Air Force Base , Big Spring , Texas. Class 7606 " Desert Hunters ". 😉😎

[@DaManAbove]

@@giancarlogarlaschi4388 Man, stop all that lying and cappin...both you dudes probably just played a few years of Xplane and now MSFS. Come on bro, I'm tired for this tonight lol.

[@OGA103]

Damn, the calm professionalism on everyone's part was seriously impressive. If I hadn't known the context of the recordings I never would have thought that a catastrophy was only narrowly avoided.

[@rogermacdearmid4380]

As a Safety Professional in industrial settings, we would call this a “Major Near Miss”. It would be handle, and investigated as if it was an actual incident with either injury or property damage. In essence, it’s a freebie. You get to investigate with the intention of improving your safety systems, without having to do so as the result of actual losses.

[@10hLoops]

As a Tower ATCO myself I have to state (as others already did) that the take-off clearance was absolutely nuts. I don't know the exact low visibility procedures at Austin, but even in the best weather conditions a standard take-off clearance for a plane not already lined-up when a landing one is at 3 NM final is pretty ambitious. 3 NM is roughly 1 min of time until touchdown and a non-rolling take-off from a holding point takes min. 1 min for a 737, often even a little longer with the clearance readbacks etc. Long story short: there's very little room for error in that situation and with low visibility it's extremely dangerous because of that.

[@tinyheadfury]

was wondering what you think of SeaTac airport? always hear how it's a new plane landing every 28 seconds.

[@georgewhitworth9742]

@@tinyheadfuryProbably cause of the multiple runways

[@JaLa248]

Are you saying atc was correct?? ATC on my opinion was still in the fast lane bc like he said SW does go faster than most. All pilots were on their game, which is reassuring! AND Never yelled at the ATC like some pilots would or file a complaint. It was All Teamwork 💯

[@fn0rd-f5o]

yeah I'd have had the departing aircraft wait. hands down. as a matter of fact, I'd have had him hold short on the ILS hold line. It's a freaking CATIII approach in LIFR not a clear sunny day with a visual approach.

[@fn0rd-f5o]

@@JaLa248 no way in hell I'd have cleared him to take off. they are too used to normal ops.

[@abikeanditsboy3449]

ATC totally messed that one up. They cleared a plane to land on a 3 mile final and then cleared a plane to take off on the same runway. Since there is no specified time for a plane to take off it was just plain irresponsible on the part of ATC to assume that SouthWest will hustle as usual, especially since it was cloudy and foggy. Terrible job by ATC.

[@Garbox80]

I recall there's a "cleared for immediate takeoff" which would tell the pilot that if you can line up and go, you can do that. That would leave the call to the pilot to think if they're ready to do that. But the ATC didn't say that. Of course it was an honest mistake, but to my understanding, you shouldn't assume anything in aviation, especially around the airport.

[@toukoaozaki]

@@Garbox80 From what I read, the problem in this case is that FedEx was cleared for CAT III autoland. This should preclude clearing another aircraft onto the runway, which would be part of the ILS critical area.

[@Garbox80]

@@toukoaozaki I saw a comment about that too, but someone replied that "unless there are other, airport specific directions in place" or something along the lines. Anyway, this one goes to ATC (and a bit on the SW pilot if that CAT lll rule applies, as pilots should also have a situational awareness AND he WAS told about that 3 mile final).

[@motherofthreeb6337]

​​@Angela G In 2019, 1059 people died in airplane accidents, however, 36,355 died in car accidents. Flying is actually safer than driving.

[@sharpfang]

​@@Garbox80Regardless, technical problems at take-off that force the pilots to reject the take-off are a thing, and the ATC needs to keep the hand on a the pulse and revoke the clearance to land if the situation gets too risky. Not this crap.

[@fallandbounce]

Thank you for posting a great example of how actual adults handle a stressful situation in a positive and constructive manner.

[@jovetj]

Especially the ATC. Total class.

[@FaradayBananacage]

The last time I flew Southwest we hit some turbulence and the "put your butts back in your seats" light came on. People ignored that because they had urgent business elsewhere. Then the main flight attendant, who looked and sounded a lot like Woody Harrelson, stood up in the front of the cabin and made it clear he wasn't joking. "Get back in your seats before I come back there and make you do it." It wasn't exactly that, but it was close. And I totally respect that guy. Southwest is... different.

[@dengueberries]

reminds me of a key & Peele sketch

[@JPINFV]

@@dengueberries A-a-ron?

[@emperorofwar1]

I love Southwest, never had anything like that happen, but dude us right in this video, they taxi and take off fast which I don't mind, they get down to business.

[@laurena.9434]

I have a lot of internalised anxiety about airplanes. No idea why, and I'm not that scared while flying in real life, but I have a ton of nightmares about planes. When it starts acting up again, I always come to watch a few of your videos. It has helped me SO MUCH to learn about how many safety mechanisms are in place for planes, pilots, and air traffic control, and knowing that even when things do go a bit south, there is a whole group of people with protocols working to fix it really makes me less scared and also amazed and respectful of all people involved with flying :) thanks for the work that you do and the videos.

[@charisma-hornum-fries]

I feel the same about cars. I'm a great driver and have used hours on ice, water, cliffs, mountains and in extreme temperatures but when I'm on a regular street, highway or in the country i am scared and frightened that someone outside my control will hit me.

[@kathrynck]

@@charisma-hornum-fries I'm the same in cars. I probably have over 1m miles in them, and a good 100,000m in bad weather. I feel a twinge of anxiety 'every' time someone pulls up on a side street who does not have the right of way. If I'm passing on a multilane, I watch the cars whose "blind spots" I'm in like a hawk, and am checking mine in case I need to evade. If anything driving an extremely large number of miles in cars has made me _more_ anxious behind the wheel, not less. I actually prefer driving in a severe snowstorm over driving in traffic. Because the behavior of the tires on snow is fairly predictable. Other drivers are not. There are days when I'll see _multiple_ unsafe choices made by multiple different drivers in a very short time frame. Usually in good weather too. When that happens, I look for a place to get off the road, because there's just "too much stupid in the air". I know that logically rare but random occurrences will sometimes happen in close proximity to each other. But I swear that sometimes there's some unknown variable which is pushing the pattern. Maybe it's a bad allergy day and half the drivers are on allergy meds, maybe a large percentage of people are upset about something on the news, I dunno, 'something'. I probably sound very timid hehe, but I'm actually a pretty aggressive driver when I know there aren't other drivers in the equation. I'll sometimes do a couple doughnuts in an empty parking lot to get a feel for how the ice is behaving, hehe.

[@sharoncassell5273]

There's a channel by Mentour pilot Petter on nervous flyers . On KZbin. It's a shame to be deprived of a privilege of traveling afar. I go to Hawaii. It's beautiful. Try the channel. Many people have overcome their doubts and fly now.

[@ericlarsen1721]

Kelsey, your professionalism is palpable. I am not a pilot. My background is in submarine operations. While the parallels are tenuous at best, the one trait we appear to share is technical competence and professionalism. Love the channel. Thanks for doing this.

[@johnnunn8688]

Polar opposite trades! One above MSL and one below. 🤣😂

[@user-pf5xq3lq8i]

The ego has landed!

[@oakld]

Though I think Kelsey is a bit wrong, in this case. The controller sent Southwest into CAT III zone, where it was interfering with signals from antennas crucial for autoland. That is why there's CAT III marking on the taxiway and no aircraft should be allowed past that point during CAT III landing. Although we didn't hear what happened prior this, but even if Southwest was instructed to hold at CAT III line and controller found out they announced themselves at 18L (unlikely), he was supposed to instruct FedEx to go around immediately, since Southwest was interfering with the system. Kelsey did not noticed that, I guess he's only a human, after all :-)

[@patheddles4004]

Strong parallels I'd argue, especially for nuclear subs (yes I mean nuclear-powered not nuclear-armed). I mean I'm a clueless outsider, but from what I've seen y'all have a bunch of justifiably-paranoid procedures just like aviation. Burning oxygen candles, for instance.

[@revengejr]

Hey Kelsey, dig the new stylized videos, especially with the animation. Really helps the visuals! Love the vid, keep it up!

[@stevenwilson8718]

Thank you for all this! I was flying on my dad's lap when I was 7 years old when my grandfather ran a flight school in Melbourne Florida and chesterfield mo in the 80s. He was a pilot in WW2 and Korean War before becoming ATC and then running private airports. Both my parents became pilots and instructors for my grandpa and I did my 1st solo when I was 10. Rules were different back then (espn when you're family owns and runs the airport and flight school). I never became an actual pilot but now that I'm in my 40s, it's my biggest regret in life. My whole family absolutely loves your videos and seems very nostalgic for us. Thank you!

[@zuesnastrio3062]

Its never to late to become a pilot

[@PlanespottingMayhem]

A solo at 10??? Never heard of that being legal at any time.

[@crooked-halo]

Steven Wilson - You soloed at 10. Right, I don’t believe you. Anyway, you can become a pilot and get hired in your 40s and 50s. There is a huge pilot shortage right now. Kill that regret and learn! I’m 55 and have a commercial license & instrument rating but haven’t flown in over 20 y! I’m training & getting current right now & will pursue a corporate pilot job. Yes, at 55. Get off your ass! You’re young!

[@stevenwilson8718]

@@PlanespottingMayhem it definitely was not legal. At the time, my grandfather was retired and owned and operated a small airport in St. Clair, MO. My parents and I lived in a mobile home on the ramp. I washed little Cessnas and my parents were instructors. I sat on my dad's lap for 3 years (because I couldn't reach the Rutter pedals). As soon as I got tall enough to reach everything, I had already had over 100 hours flying on my dad's lap. Again, this was around 1984 and my family owned the airport, flight school and a dozens single engine planes. I never got licensed because it wasn't legal but I did fly a LOT before I was even a teenager. Unfortunately, I think that was the reason I never pursued flying. I was spoiled and bored with flying and thought I could be a pro golfer. Lol. That didn't work out either and now I'm just a construction worker. My dad spent his whole life in aviation and now that I'm in my 40s, I finally realize how lucky I was and I regret not taking advantage of what I could have had

[@stevenwilson8718]

@Ty flys It's too expensive today. At least for me. I'm works construction and have a family and that's why it's such a huge regret. It would have been free when I was a teenager and without any real world responsibilities. Now? It's at least 150 dollars an hour which is far beyond my means as far as expendable income. But I have a lot of great stories and memories

[@bobbyc2768]

my dad was an air traffic controller in the US Air Force during the Vietnam war, I never really understood what he did and when I was a really young kid I remember thinking it wasn't one of the "cool" jobs the Air Force had, but as I've gotten older (I'm only 29, he was 49 when I was born) I think it's cool as hell. I've been watching these videos for a couple years now and it just occurred to me to go ask him what it was like back then working at several different very busy US air bases clearing B52's, F4-C Phantoms, big C130's, and the works for landings, takeoffs, and directing aerial refuelings and formations to and from bases. Now that this stuff is as interesting to me as it is, I want to ask him how they did it back then, like what equipment they used. He always wrote in all capital letters and told me that was from his time doing ATC for the USAF and he wrote his "E's" like backwards "3's" and certain letters very differently than I did and used the least amount of strokes possible for writing "4's" and stuff like that, telling me that's how they taught him to write fast and legibly for them as he was hearing radio transmissions coming in from different pilots. He also said he lost a lot of his hearing because certain high ranking officers flying F4's would buzz the tower going supersonic sometimes and it was loud as hell. After finding your videos on ATC and other channel's videos on ATC working under stress and helping emergency aircraft I have a new found respect for what he did, and I thank you for that. When I was a kid, I never understood how crazy and stressful it must have been to have been guiding a limping aircraft back to base who was hit by some big guns and had pieces (or entire) wings missing, sometimes were on fire, or they got hit and their electronics and controls stopped working so they couldn't find their way back to base at night and they had to guide them in by radar and then turn on lights so the plane could find their way to the ground, then sometimes rush out crewmen as they crash landed sometimes, which at some bases the ATC guys would be expected to go out and help fight a fire and help the pilot out, and before major missions they would also help the ground crewmen go load the planes up with bombs, ammo for guns, rockets, fuel, etc. What a crazy job to have and I want to go ask him all about it the next time I see him.

[@LokiDWolf]

This was probably one of the best explanations of this scenario. I've seen this incident on MANY airline/flight channels here on the KZbins. And, as a sim player, you really did explain things in a very easy and comprehensible way. Thanks!

[@MaxRovensky]

What do you mean FedEx pilot created confusion? I saw this whole thing unfold live on flightradar and liveatc The tower should never have let the Southwest anywhere near that runway, there was no reason for them not to hold for FedEx's 3 mile final, it's literally just a few minutes Especially since they took their time getting rolling Fedex crew was absolutely goat in the way they handled this, a lot of people are alive today thanks to them. They sensed something was wrong, double checked with the tower, tower still cleared them to land on top of Southwest and they made a fast decision to start climbing

[@quackers584]

As an ATC myself I appreciate you trying to give us as much benefit of the doubt as possible hereZ With that being said…this is 100% on the controller and is unacceptable 🤷🏻‍♂️ If he needed an immediate departure he should’ve said cleared for immediate take off. With low vis like this he wasn’t being as exact as he could’ve been. Also, this controller has a reputation of not being top notch. So not too surprising

[@kimberlyhugley1316]

So what end up happening Southwest moved out the way quickly while FedEx was still landing?

[@TitaniumTurbine]

@@kimberlyhugley1316 No, Southwest took off and FedEx (probably climbed rapidly to clear TCAS) and changed heading/went around for another landing per ATC’s updated instructions.

[@BabyMakR]

TBF to Kelsey, he's not ATC. His perspective is from the cockpit. In my company we sometimes do crossover training with other departments. I'm in the assurance team and have done crossover with the sales team and field techs and have learned a lot from it. Obviously, having every pilot spend time in ATC observing and ATC in a jump seat observing is not practical, but perhaps some videos of actual ATC and actual cockpit situations during certain difficult situations may help bridge the gap? Whenever I hear something like this with ATC doing things I always assume it's like in Pushing Tin where they're supper busy and Russell Bell is telling one plane to speed up and another to slow down so that a third plane can slot in to land but we're only hearing the comms to one of the 3 and there is tons of other stuff going on that we don't see. Just like in the cockpit. The pilots sound calm and collected but are furiously checking lists and flicking switches and a million other things but all we hear is the "roger blah blah blah"

[@rustonhutchens783]

Thanks Scott ~ you answered the question I had yet to ask.... I was wondering why the call wasn't "cleared for immediate takeoff"

[@fromtheflightdeck252]

Agreed. SW has some guilt to for accepting that takeoff clearance with someone already cleared to land. This is not even allowed in most other countries.

[@LaVieBoheme517]

I'm currently enrolled in ground school for aviation dispatcher training and the depth you go into on these plates is so helpful! Thank you sir.

[@pullt]

An understandable bit of voice fluttering on the "we appreciate your professionalism" call. I really appreciate the nuggets Kelsey gives on the importance of self awareness beyond the gritty mechanics of situational awareness.

[@FazeICEY836]

Kelsey, you are correct in saying that you can squeeze a plane out with another on a 3 mile final(especially southwest), but as controllers, we need to apply the 2 increasing to 3 rule when IFR conditions. Unless southwest had one of the fastest takeoff rolls in aviation history, the controller was never going to be legal

[@TakeDeadAim]

The controller should have never let the SWA past the ILS hold short line when he knew FedEx was a CATIII.

[@mikeaudio]

That’s what I wondered. It’s my understanding that greater separation between aircraft needs to be maintained. Even physical spacing on the ground so aircraft don’t interfere with the signals for a CAT III approach

[@SB-cz9vo]

Agreed the CAT III call from FedEx is the point where ATC dropped the ball. He failed to confirm the approach as a CAT III one and to keep all metalobjects away form the restriction area. (plane, car etc does not matter they all dirturb the signal) The rest was just an extension from the initial fail He did. Lucky for him FedEx managed to outclimb SW and turn away before they reached them.

[@dadbackwards4448]

There is no ILS hold short line on that side of the runway, where SWA was. It is on the other side.

[@LowLevel157]

Agreed.

[@SB-cz9vo]

@Dadbackwards in this case the rwy hold short line is also the one for CAT III since the radiotower is on the left side.

[@Pixooout]

Great explanation of this incident. Non-pilot here but interested in all aspects of professional aviation. AS A NOTE: your Editor did a great job of adding the Flight Sim footage and graphics to add clarity to the story. Also the time-lapse of you getting ready for a flight shows what pilots do to ready for a flight. Excellent work on this.

[@normp3273]

I just want to say the animations along with the narration of the events that transpired in recent videos is 10 out of 10. Also, I'm wondering if ATC will be reprimanded for this particular incident?

[@PappaMike-vc1qv]

The FAA rules allow a controller to file a report on themselves in this type of incident and they are protected from losing their job. (This was done to encourage more timely reporting and cooperation with the investigation and help develop new safety procedures). That being said, they will be taken off duty until the investigation is completed and they complete mandatory re-training and a re-certification exam.

[@PappaMike-vc1qv]

If a controller is found to have compromised safety several times, then a review board will decide how they will be retrained and/or re-assigned to less flight critical control positions. But, never fired.

[@LowLevel157]

That is not completely correct.

[@himoffthequakeroatbox4320]

I don't know if he does them himself, but I agree they're very good. Better than some I've seen on professional news, training videos & the like.

[@sequoiasemperviren3163]

Kelsey has hired his new assistant!

[@bdouglas]

Austin resident here, I really apprecaite this analysis at a level a non-pilot can understand. Love this channel! ...whatever it decides to become in the future!

[@sharoncassell5273]

Haste is a recipe for disaster. Being too slow also can create problems. Maybe the SW plane was not completely briefed, prepared with checklist for takeoff and we're still scrambling to get it together.

[@timhairston9964]

I’ve tried to watch a couple videos about this incident but they were more for pilots so a lot of assumptions were made but you explained perfectly for a non-pilot, non-ATC. The graphics and editing made it even more understandable. Thank you!

[@PappaMike-vc1qv]

ATC procedures strictly prohibit what the controller did. In layman’s terms: during poor weather, a controller cannot allow a turbojet to pass the final approach fix or 5 mile final while another aircraft is entering the runway for takeoff or hold UNLESS the controller can provide visual separation of both aircraft. The weather was waaaay to bad to try this visually. The controller did not see either aircraft. The controller broke the rules and got lucky.

[@djsinkaz]

Neither aircraft is a turbojet. Both are turbofan powered aircraft.

[@willusher3297]

Where's the turbojet?

[@pinecedar180]

We need new software to help controllers not make mistakes

[@PappaMike-vc1qv]

It’s been a while but last time I checked the ATP which spells out the rules. It still refers to all turbofans as turbojets for classification purposes. And Pine Cedar is correct, the ATC system is far behind in tech. Fortunately, Tech in the cockpit has advanced and is responsible for a much safer environment. TCAS was a big step forward.

[@dtktrucker]

@@djsinkazRight. There’s Turboprop and Turbofan. Both are Jets, in that the jet turns the blades rather than a piston.

[@AndyBraithwaite1963]

You said that TCAS would keep them apart, and I’m not sure it would have done. I forget the actual height but TCAS doesn’t give Resolution Advisories (RAs) below a certain height. It’s possible that both a/c were still below that height and one, or neither, would have received only a Traffic Alert (TA) but not accompanied by any evasive guidance. They would have been able to see their relative positions along with height difference and each a/c’s vertical direction.

[@chrisschack9716]

Was going to say the same thing myself, RA Inhibit near ground.

[@gordonrichardson2972]

Reference I just read says all advisories inhibited below 1000 ft, and descent advisory inhibited below 1500 ft.

[@AndyBraithwaite1963]

@@gordonrichardson2972 I just read the same thing. TCAS remains in TA only mode below 1000ft AGL. In this instance neither a/c would have received anything more than a Traffic Advisory although they would have been able to see the other a/c, it's vertical separation, it's horizontal separation and if it were climbing or descending at greater than 500fpm.

[@v1rot81]

Yep, I agree. In my aircraft, RA is inhibited below one AGL altitude, and TA is inhibited below a lower one.

[@PappaMike-vc1qv]

Correct on TCAS, great observation. Before TCAS most controllers would issue immediate instructions such as a 90 degree turn on the missed approach to avoid a collision. It is interesting that with TCAS the controller no longer felt the need.

[@Xterraforce]

I remember hearing the audio from this and thinking both pilots really maintained their professionalism during what had to be a stressful situation. The explanation and animations make it much easier to understand exactly what happened and the contributing factors.

[@robertbannon6361]

From a non-pilot, your videos are absolutely fascinating. Thank you !

[@kilroywuzhere6864]

Thank you, Kelsey! Fantastic explanation and description of the legal, procedural and cultural implications that lead to these types of incidents!

[@TheBosphorusbridge]

@Anne Frank Vape Pen stayin in your kitchen please

[@ChristomirRackov]

@Anne Frank Vape Pen What does race have to do with anything here?

[@bc-guy852]

What a great explanation of a complex situation. Well done Kelsey! Thank you for going through what the reports will likely find, a long while from now. Your graphics are first class and they really contribute to making this easy to understand. Lessons learned. Great episode!

[@jimsteinway695]

Really wasn’t that complicated. The 767 was coming in fast. The SW pilot should have never accepted the clearance. He should know what traffic is coming and how close they are. Given the conditions Cat III is almost zero visibility, they should have waited, the ATC AND the SW pilot. The perfect analogy is someone pulling out in front of you when you’re doing 65 mph on a rural hwy. But you can’t see them. This was a couple of real screwups

[@oakld]

@@jimsteinway695 It's even worse, Kelsey did not realize some other conditions. The controller sent Southwest into CAT III zone, where it was interfering with signals from antennas crucial for autoland. That is why there's CAT III marking on the runway and no aircraft should be allowed past that point during CAT III landing. Although we didn't hear what happened prior this, but even if Southwest was instructed to hold at CAT III line and controller found out they announced themselves at 18L (unlikely), he was supposed to instruct FedEx to go around immediately, since Southwest was interfering with the system.

[@williamsender6416]

Once the FedEx flight was cleared for the CAT III I was under the impression there could be no aircraft past the ILS hold short markers until the aircraft have landed though. That's where I think the controller screwed up.

[@Zorthal]

My thoughts as well

[@Sicktrickintuner]

Yep, 3 mile final. At 170 is about a minute. Too short to be able to pull out and take off if not already rolling down the runway.

[@dadbackwards4448]

The ILS hold short line is on the other side of the runway. There is no ILS hold short line where SWA was at AUS.

[@kennethelsbury2857]

@@dadbackwards4448 Would the 737 not interfere with the localizer which is beyond the far end of the runway? My understanding, the ILS hold short on the other side keeps the line of sight to the glideslope radio clear, but do you also have to protect the localizer?

[@richardcrandall6786]

@@dadbackwards4448 both sides have ILS hold short. Look at Google Earth and zoom in.

[@haydenm.3912]

One of the things I think you forgot to point out is that the ILS Critical Area was not being protected. The weather was definitely less than 800ft and 2sm as they were using a CAT III approach, the ILS Critical Area has to be protected! It didn't seem to have much of an effect on the outcome of the situation, but it's just something I was thinking about during the video. Great breakdown!

[@gordonrichardson2972]

On that runway the ILS critical area is on the far side, so that particular issue was not a factor.

[@haydenm.3912]

@@gordonrichardson2972 My understanding is that the ILS antenna is on either side of the runway at the departure end - this is so the signal can be the prescribed 700ft wide at the threshold. I could be wrong but that would make it seem like it would be an issue regardless of what end of the runway you're on. I'll have to look into that, thanks for letting me know.

[@gordonrichardson2972]

@@haydenm.3912 I meant the grass on the side of the runway opposite the taxiway, not the opposite end of the runway.

[@chriskibbe2901]

Don’t think FedEx created any confusion, as it didn’t change anyones action and had zero effect. Not knowing the climb rate of the 737 (could have been light so high ROC) and that actual separation was listed by less than 150ft (Kelsey left that out). FedEx found itself in a near impossible situation entirely not of its own making. If in that exact instant, there was a possible way for SWA to abort, then this severe lack of separation event would have been avoided. If SWA continues, then zero effect…no change. You’re dismissing the entire ATC and ILS system is built to protect this exact thing from happening, and if there had been an accident, you believe that perhaps the NTSB would say Fedex’s call to SWA to abort would have be listed as contributing factor. It would be wrong to assume that. Appears tower/ground has no ground radar capability to positively locate ground traffic. Tower asks if SWA on the roll, meaning he doesn’t know SWA location, but he DOES know Fedex’s exact location. Assuming SWA moves fast, this mistake still could have easily avoided. Tower tells FedEx to GA, and SWA TO clearance cancelled. Tower did make a mistake, but not only how you described.

[@haydenm.3912]

@@chriskibbe2901 I'm not sure who that comment was aimed at, but I agree for the most part. This thread is just focusing on the ILS critical area, that's all.

[@tchevrier]

Correct me if I'm understanding this incorrectly. There is a large aircraft on approach 3 miles from the end of the runway. That's how long, about 60 seconds? There's low visibility. The controller has another plane holding short of the runway, and figures that he can get the instructions, get the read back, and have the southwest plane taxi onto the runway get airborne in that 60 seconds. Just from a layman's perspective that seems like a very very tight window with no margin for error.

[@jazzman5598]

As an old, ex-pilot I can say some of the best folks I ever met were ATC folks. Great vid Kelsey

[@DillandShaj]

It's awesome how all parties just remained calm and professional throughout the whole situation! Awesome video as always Kelsey!

[@garyhardman8369]

Kelsey, love the videos. I work in electrical engineering, nothing to do with aviation. I was once in a situation where I ASSUMED that the senior engineer in charge had done his job and carried out the appropriate disconnections of the electrical supplies (as he had done many times before). On this occasion however, he had omitted to do so. Fortunately, I survived with superficial burns and a pair of vaporised cable shears. One of my old bosses had a saying: Assumption, mother of all f*ck ups!

[@jimstanley_49]

Was this before LOTO?

[@Brian-kl1zu]

Trust; but verify.

[@julzb7165]

Jeepers! Glad you survived.

[@joshm2610]

When you assume You make an ass out of you and me

[@OwnedByACatNamedC.C.]

I’m sure you were relieved you weren’t electrocuted! I was taught in grade school by one of my teachers that “to assume is to make an Ass out of U & Me”.

[@ashleighsteaparty268]

This is such a great example of amazing professionalism and keeping calm when needed! Also, Kelsey if my teachers at school had explained things as clearly and interestingly as you do I would have done way better than I did!

[@yabbadabbadoo8225]

Us Sim Pot lounge pilots will never appreciate the real world of flying. Kelsey thank you for your time putting this almost CIS clip together. I thank the Lord this was a 100% +ve outcome due in part to the vast experience in the profession. Love your work champ.

[@aaronsnowden6311]

Love your videos, I always learn something new.

[@eannliska423]

The way the fedex pilot says "heavy" makes me so happy 😄 Also, Southwest's reputation is why my school joked about taxi speed Vsw, my favorite unpublished V speed

[@tedharman5354]

When the Fedex plane confirmed they were 3 miles to the runway, they were going to be rolling on the runway in 62 seconds. Three miles sounds far, 62 seconds, not so much. That seems like a really short window to allow another aircraft access to the same runway for takeoff.

[@rangerrick8220]

I used to plane watch at Pearson Intl in Toronto Canada and one Christmas the traffic on 24R (now 23) was so intense I timed 45 secs between one leaving and another landing at the same spot!

[@janicebrowningaquino792]

Well Kelsey, this Memere (Grandmother) is simply happy for professionalism exhibited in any aspect of flying. I LOVE your channel because I’m listening and learning so much. I am a person who would have LOVED to travel the world round in my younger days but that is not possible today. Thank you for taking me places I’ve never seen, for YOUR professionalism, your efforts re your channel sharing it all with your viewers!! 🤗😉😘!!

[@levent8208]

Bien dit grand-maman !

[@Tomsgate101]

The video footage and sound effects are outstanding! This is awesome, thank you for the hard work. Great to watch!

[@coloradobrad6779]

This is the best show for lifting the veil on the safety operations and approach plates. Great education. Amazing professionalism and these videos always help me understand what I’m hearing and to not be nervous in the air. Thank you.

[@KenLowe65]

Another well researched and informative video Kelsey. Brings a smile to my face to hear your wisdom and explanations. Glad you continue to "keep the blue side up", sir!

[@Garythefireman66]

Thanks for explaining this Kelsey. Hopefully everyone learned something and procedures will be put in place to avoid this from happening again ✈️

[@Nebbia_affaraccimiei]

a procedure would be having the right to fire incompetent workers but thats not the way woke america is going

[@MorphMixologyReptiles]

There’s plenty of procedures we follow every day to prevent this. This controller was blatantly negligent and needs to not be working traffic

[@SECONDQUEST]

This isn't the first time something like this has happened and it won't be the last.

[@diegoramirez8674]

Thing is this. Why would you let southwest on the runway, knowing fedex was doing a CAT 3 approach?

[@kevdogsab]

I’m surprised Kelsey missed this little fact. The ILS critical area is supposed to be clear on a CAT III approach. I’m pretty sure the runway threshold is part of the ILS critical area. 😂 This was obviously ATC screwing up, and not a case of oh, southwest has a reputation of doing things quickly, so i thought they would have quickly taken off. They should have never been cleared while a plane was doing that approach.

[@jimcostello4165]

I appreciate the technical data. It’s great to learn the information that goes in decision making for safe flights! Thanks K!

[@johnellis5989]

I watched other commentaries about this incident and yours was excellent, Kelsey! Glad that things turned out as well as they did, thanks to professionalism as ATC termed it. Clearly the FedEx flight crew was thinking ahead, anticipating, and ready to act.

[@RLukeDavis]

Thanks very much for your videos mate, they're a very interesting source of information from someone who knows what they're talking about. Like Brian Cox, you have a great knack for explaining complicated things to amateurs in a very accessible way. Please keep up the good work!

[@SurefireSentinel]

After discovering your channel and watching all your videos, I was eagerly awaiting another one; I definitely wasn’t disappointed. Thank you for making aviation a lot more accessible. I’ve decided to take a flying lesson thanks to you. Not for a career change, just to try something new

[@sharoncassell9358]

Beware you might get hooked. Aviation is addictive. House of the rising son.

[@gracelandone]

After seeing 3 other analyses, I got so much more from yours. Context from 3 different points of view explaining the event without trying to assign blame. You are cautious about not getting off into the weeds yet giving enough info that we backseaters can grasp some of the complexities aviation professionals deal with. Well done.

[@MeppyMan]

He is missing some important facts from this though. The controller should never have let the SW plane on to the runway once there was a CATIII landing clearance.

[@candlercando]

@@MeppyMan "Tower, Southwest 708, we are short of 18L and we are ready" was not factual. Tower should have denied Southwest 708s assumption.

[@tiffinyanderson4403]

I’m so glad you covered this because I saw the raw video and was shocked.

[@billkeenan1085]

Great vid, Kelsey. Nitpicking here: this FedEx had to us autoland, but not all do. We had a heads up in the Q400 and our CAT III mins at some airports were 6, 4, and 3. Hand flown all the way to the gate. Please keep 'em rolling, between you and Mentour Pilot I never stop learning.

[@SpawnCampGames]

I love how your putting more production quality into the videos.. They've always been great but you can really tell by the clean frames and text bubbles.. Looking Great!

[@TheFlightLevel]

This is a great video. So easy to see how the confusion could occur! Low visibility can create problems so quickly at busy airports. Even as a GA pilot, great learning and appreciation to stay calm and know all the variables when holding short for traffic on final.

[@jasonwitt8161]

omg, that had me on the edge of my seat even though I knew there was no crash. thank you for telling this story and being fair to all parties involved, cheers!

[@tommyholzman6613]

Thank you for this great video and all you do.

[@back2vinyl493]

Hat's off to all the skilled pilots and air traffic controllers out there, videos like this show how sharp you all have to be.

[@Midcon77]

Thanks Kelsey - appreciate the breakdown of this one. I’ve watched a few videos on this incident and you were the first to make it clear to me that the “abort” call could have been misinterpreted by the tower. I didn’t understand the tower’s next call before since I was assuming tower knew it was FedEx, and not SWA, that made that statement. Glad it ended up okay - could have been a bad one!

[@av8ir68]

I have so many thoughts on this, but a heavy jet on a 3 mile final in the weather should have the runway sealed up as his only.. My second thought is, a 737 does not resemble a top fuel dragster that can get rolling at break neck speed. Especially in the low visibility weather... I don’t really know the legal aspect of how the instrumentation works on a CATIII landing, but I would assume that the landing environment cannot be contaminated with anything with another jet on a 3 mile final.. I would also like to know, who teaches the rules to ATC on how close a plane can be on a CATIII landing and have another one taking off?? Those are just a few thoughts and questions I have on this situation that I would call an incredibly close call..

[@ronaldamesjr.7125]

Good to see you again Kelsey!

[@TheJayMoses]

I’m so glad you did this one for us Kelsey! I needed some explanation for my hometown airport! Thank you!

[@EmeryE2]

The look of severe concentration on his face ever time he’s watching something 😂

[@Kjtravels40]

It’s the classic “Kelsey Stare” lol love it 😂

[@kevdogsab]

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@dubbadude]

Kelsey as informative as ever. A joy to watch. 😎

[@thomasmennella5501]

Love this channel, your passion for aviation and your analyses. I will say though that I disagree with some of the details of your opinions here. I believe that this incident is completely on the controller. He gave this runway to conflicting traffic. A number of different things can delay a plane on the runway. If a controller needs an expedited departure he needs to say so on the TO clearance. The controller set up this conflict. FedEx and Southwest were both simply doing what they were cleared to do. Thanks for all your videos. Getting a window into flying with the big boys is very appreciated!

[@RealThunderberg]

So incredibly well articulated and explained which is a major part of what makes this one of the best channels on all of KZbin. WELL DONE Kelsey you are definitely in the right place my man 👊🏼

[@charlieghague]

Whoever you got to do the new editing and animations already needs a raise! It makes a huge difference.

[@SkinnyCow.]

Cat 3 low visibility, clearing another plane onto the runway with fedex 3 miles out, that's just should never have happened.

[@kristinreynolds577]

Kelsey, this is the only video that I have watched on this incident. I worked for SWA for 20 years and only left due to health. I worked in our operations department 99% of my career. I loved working with the crews and passengers. You’re so right on the SWA culture. We typically do everything fast and on the go. I’ll be very interested in seeing a final report on this. I don’t like the blame game at all. I’m so incredibly thankful that everything did turn out and I know the pilots and controller will be a bit more cautious next time. Bottom line is thank goodness everyone is fine, everyone will learn and move on as the professionals they are. Thanks for a great look at this from all sides! ✈️✈️✈️

[@myparceltape1169]

Are they related to a certain Eire based operator, by any chance?

[@kimmoore5149]

I am not involved in aviation in anyway, I appreciate your explanation of the situation between two flights and atc. I also hope you find what brings you satisfaction. I love your videos!

[@Dcbbanker]

Kelsey: another awesome show! Please don’t quit.! You’re the best aviator on this media.

[@PageNumber687x]

oh man. recently flew into houston and it's honestly been about 6 years since i've flown on anything but about 15+ since i've flown on anything smaller than a 737. we were flying on an embraer 145 and coming in was surreal (to me). it was clear when we started final descent and then nothing but dense fog until moments before wheels touched down. grey, grey, grey, there's the runway! BOUNCE! lol i'm glad i've been watching you, mentour, and a handful of flight reviewers for a few years beforehand; otherwise i know i would have been freaking out. and that was flight #1 of 6 in the span of 7 days. the other 5 went VERY smoothly.

[@airbornemusician2999]

I experienced a similar situation on a flight that I took out of SFO. Tower cleared our flight for takeoff with arriving traffic close behind, however the pilots took a while to start rolling and ultimately the LC canceled our takeoff clearance and sent the arrival traffic around. A key difference here was that it happened on a clear day. Had the visibility been as low as it was during the incident in Austin, it could’ve been a much more dangerous situation.

[@michaelantone7465]

Both pilot's professionalism helped to avoid a catastrophe. I'm sure Kelsey exhibits that same professionalism. Thank you for your commentary! 😀

[@fge627]

Hey Kelsey, I'm new to the aviation community, your videos are amazing! Thank you!

[@sanfranlaw]

One of the best videos you’ve done. So great.

[@davidmalinowski489]

Kelsey has inspired me to get my pilot license at 59 years old TY Sir

[@ClearedAsFiled]

Your life will change forever 😊

[@PaulineFerguson]

Have fun!!

[@bertblankenstein3738]

One plane coming in while another is going might work with good visibility. With low vis it seems just a matter of time before things like this happen.

[@Riverplacedad1]

That was a very important point about how SWA does things. Completely agree based on my time on their jumpseat. But also how ATC will give them clearances that they wouldn’t normally give to other airlines just because they are more “hot dogish”. I’ve had ATC at Las Vegas and Baltimore have SWA cut in front of me for a short final. I think SWA were the last ones to get FOQA in the cockpit. So no need to worry about stabilized approaches. Best of luck. Hope you don’t get blackballed for their jumpseat

[@johnpollard4158]

I've been waiting for this one.

[@rabbit6914]

Saw this incident described in the news but did not understand until this video. Thank you!

[@brentnorman6848]

Kelsey, I had a boss a long while ago that used to say, did you learn from that mistake? He would take the time to go over where things went wrong and how to avoid doing that again. This is a great example of breaking it down step by step and pointing out where the mistake was made. In this case anyone that has been around airports would have assumed that Southwest would have done their usual turn onto the active, and burned out of there. Great channel and fantastic content.

[@joevc737]

Nice video. Small thing to add: while some airplanes use auto land for CATIII, others (ironically, Southwest) use the HUD and it actually HAS to be hand flown.

[@TheNixie1972]

What I don’t understand is why the controller was in such a hurry to get the SW airborne. From other video’s on this incident I learned that traffic was light at the time, so the SW could just have been holding for 2-3 minutes to let the FedEx land and then have all the time in the world to safely take off.

[@cubplt]

Kelsey, One aspect of this which I have not seen discussed is the requirement to keep the ILS critical area clear. Since the Localizer antenna sits at the departure end of the runway, the departing SWA 737 would penetrate the ILS critical area during it’s departure. I question wether the SWA flight ever should ever have been cleared onto the runway while a CAT III ILS was in process.

[@CraigPetty555]

Kelsey your facial expressions are priceless, man. Love your videos!!!

[@larrynoe6162]

Although I am only a private pilot I learn something from your informative videos Kelsey, thank you.

[@familygene9030]

Glad you did this video.

[@oddshot60]

"Intentions" is a curious word to use here. I don't think anyone ever "intends" to have 2 a/c collide. That said, something DID go wrong here. I think it will be interesting to see what the FAA says about it.

[@grogan6459]

Thanks for the information on this incident. I can see, now, how this could happen. You really gave me a lot of clarification. I'm only a Sim Pilot, but I can see how this created a confusing situation.

[@jeffglasnap9820]

Great breakdown, Kelsey! Thanks. Southwest definitely needed to do their standard roll and go.

[@Kansas-Paul]

What a excellent analysis of that scary situation. Thank you for your input.

[@wnhtynhatc1306]

As a controller, I appreciate you going to bat for controllers often. With a CAT III going on, there was no business having the SWA plane put onto the runway. This controller has no business being part of our workforce.

[@brittanyhughes2198]

What happens in situations like this ? Are they warned or let go usually ?